“The art of leadership is saying no, not yes. It is very easy to say yes.” — Tony Blair, Former British prime minister
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club. Our weekly meeting of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline and/or Female Led (FLR) relationships.
I hope you’re all doing well
and have had a kick-off to the holiday season.
I’m sorry that my posting (and even commenting) has been so lackluster. At least I think I may be narrowing in on the source of my malaise.
As I stated before, I came back from vacation sick with Covid (for the third time), and my DD interest seemed to have plummeted. I now have a working theory on why it happened, though not necessarily how to correct it, at least not quickly.
I had my annual physical exam (though, thanks to my procrastinating it usually ends up being closer to biannual) shortly after we went on vacation. But, I put off doing the blood draw for the various health-related metrics they check, because I knew that a week at an all-inclusive resort probably had not done wonders for my cholesterol levels or other markers. I finally got around to doing the blood draw earlier this week.
Surprisingly, my cholesterol numbers were great. But, oddly, my testosterone levels are way down. Like down by 30% in one year! I had no idea why, but out of curiosity I Googled “Covid and declining testosterone levels.” Sure enough, there is good clinical data showing that Covid can, in fact, cause sudden declines in testosterone.
I have always said that, although I don’t have a spanking or discipline “fetish,” it’s certainly true that the energy that underlies my DD interest is heavily erotic. So, what happens when the testosterone that drives sexual energy drops? Well, apparently in my case it means my interest in DD drops right along with it. Here’s hoping it’s temporary. . .. And, I have felt a some slightly stronger erotic stirrings this week, so perhaps the situation is improving.
In the meantime, I will diligently try to get my act together on diet and exercise over the holidays in an effort to get those "T" levels back up. Maybe in the process I'll shed some of the weight I put on last holiday season.
Anyway, I did have the beginnings of a topic glimmering in my brain but it hadn’t quite gelled yet, when I got a couple of topic ideas that seemed at least peripherally related.
Norton suggested this:
“Christmas is usually a stressful time, and this one has the added stress of a resurgence of Covid where I live, as well as the brewing threat to our democracy, plus the Israeli - Gaza war, as well as the ongoing war with Russia and Ukraine, which has further devided the country. When I feel stressed out, I drink more, and pay attention less. This has led to my earning 3 disciplinary spankings in the last 10 days. Before this, I went for over a month or longer, not earning any discipline, and getting only maintenance spankings. When I find things that seem relevant to us, I bring them up in our check before most spankings. One entry I read from awhile back was about how difficult it must be for our wives to be in the role of constantly needing to make decisions about how often and how severe to punish. My partner affirmed that was true for her as well, and in the middle of yesterday's spanking, she told me "I don't like having to do this", which made me feel somewhat ashamed of putting her through that. It also left me feeling the need to increase my resolve to not earn any more punishment for awhile. Does any of this ring true for you guys as well?”
Then, I got this email from “Mike”:
“First of all thank you for your blog! We started our version of a DD
marriage this August and I had the luck to come across your blog by
chance. I have only commented once so
far on the recent topic of tears but I read your blog regularly and try to read
through all the old posts (which are a lot!) in order to have a better
understanding of what a DD relationship can look like.
If it's okay with you, I
would like to suggest a topic for a future discussion that has been on my mind
lately. Namely the DD progression in relationships especially with regard to
naturally non dominant wives who have a hard time picking up and applying the
paddle.
Maybe I can give you a little background on what I mean by that: My wife is 30 and I am 37. We have three small kids (so life is very busy and noisy). I have been a hard wired spanko since childhood but in our 10 years of marriage I kept that secret because my wife is as vanilla as it gets and does not have a kinky bone in her body. This summer we had a big argument about my lack of help around the house and I took this as an opportunity to suggest DD to her. Her response was a clear “hell no” to spanking me but we did experiment with some other forms of accountability. After I continued to try to move her in the direction of spanking I eventually revealed my deep rooted need to her in a very emotional and vulnerable moment and she reluctantly agreed to give it a try. We tried different things in the last few months and at the beginning I was too much in control telling her how to do her discipline job. After we both read “the good wife's guide to taking charge” (again first heard about it on your blog) she set up the rule that I write her a list of all my infractions and pin it on our fridge every friday. She will then deal with me when she feels like it. Sometimes it is the same weekend but sometimes it may be three weeks later. I have no say regarding discipline whatsoever.
Now I do count my lucky stars that I finally get some of the discipline and boundaries I crave and I am extremely grateful to my wife for being willing to do this for me. But I know she really doesn´t like spanking me and therefore the spankings are often not really hard enough and too infrequent. She mostly spanks for things we agreed together that I should change but never uses her power for other things I do that really piss her off. It is still mostly me who asks her “do I need to put this on the report?” when I feel I made her angry (= trying to remind her of her power) rather than her telling me to put it on the list and expect a severe spanking the next weekend.
Now on your blog I read
about a lot of wives who took to it naturally and enjoy their power. My wife -
as of now - does not fall into that category. But I am really curious about how
DD progressed in relationships in which the wife at the beginning did not like
spanking their husband but did it anyway. Did that feeling change for some
wives? Did they start to enjoy it? Did intensity and frequency increase? From
what I gathered by reading your blog DD is a process.
I guess I just try get some perspective and encouragement / hope that our DD could evolve into more than it is now. I hope one day she will see DD as a tool she can use to her benefit rather than a chore she has to perform. At the same time I do know that my wife is completely worn out from taking care of our kids (youngest being 1 year old) so we started DD in a stage in our lives that is already challenging enough.
I will stop my rambling now. Maybe it might be worth a post / discussion. Either way thanks for your blog. I really appreciate that it is not focused on the bdsm aspect as so many other blogs are. I don´t really identify with that. If you want to pick up my topic suggestion feel free to use anything that I did write. I apologize if my english is a bit off - it´s not my native language.”
Although they are coming at it from slightly different angles, it seems to me that both Norton and Mike are raising the topic of the burdens of taking on the role of disciplinarian in a DD marriage, and how for some it can be a chore or worse.
First off, I would like to
congratulate Mike on being honest with his wife about what he needs. It’s also a great thing on her part that,
despite being a vanilla, she has agreed to at least give all this a try. Those moves took courage on both parts and
dedication to the relationship and to each other. And, it may be worth reminding him, be careful what you wish for!
Regarding Mike’s request for guidance, I may not be the best resource, as I got lucky that while, like Mike’s wife, mine began this journey seemingly “as vanilla as it gets [without] a kinky bone in her body” mine was one of those who seemed to take to it surprisingly easily. Oh, I do think she thought the whole thing was kind of weird at first, but that didn’t stop her from giving very hard spankings almost from the beginning.
Though, it is still, in fact, a process. For example, she hasn’t always shown the initiative Mike talks about of being quick to punish for things that truly piss her off, even though we are almost twenty years into this little experiment.
But, I also have seen her confidence in herself and her general proclivity for keeping DD “top of mind” grow by leaps and bounds, particularly over the last couple of years since she retired. And, while it ebbs and flows, there definitely have been times over the last year when I felt she increasingly was coming to her own conclusions about the need for increased strictness.
As for Norton’s concerns, I’m also perhaps not the best person to respond. I don’t think that delivering hard disciplinary spankings has ever been an emotional burden per se for Anne. As I said, she took to them very readily and now, twenty years later, I think she downright enjoys giving them and actually gets antsy when (like now) she hasn’t blistered my backside in several weeks. She has never said anything like, “I don’t like doing this to you” because I think she very much DOES like doing it to me!
I do think sometimes she has experienced DD as a logistical burden. She has told me that sometimes when she’s decided I need a spanking, she will have to think about how to work it into a busy day. While I’m sure that isn’t easy, and I do sympathize, I don’t think it happens that often. My own reaction to that logistical burden is interesting, at least to me. Something about envisioning her mentally going through her daily calendar, figuring out when to work in a much-deserved spanking, really turns me on.
That may not be surprising, given how many times I’ve written here about the attraction I have both to the “maternal” disciplinarian archetype and to an approach that is very “all business.” Something about the head of the household working out mentally when to deliver a spanking, as if it were just another item on the to-do list definitely resonates with me.
I hope you all have a great week.
I can offer a slightly different perspective on this. We met (at the end of the last century) through an early spanking website, so there was no question of either of us having to be introduced to the idea. Admittedly the initial dynamic was different - more erotic and predominately Mf, tending towards BDSM, But we transitioned to Fm DD probably within the first year. I’d say we were both very committed to DD then - possibly her slightly more than me, but over the years it has become something that I need more and more, but to her has become something of a chore. It has been a particularly difficult year with work, a lot of travel and family issues and I have felt her getting generally overwhelmed with it all at times. The bottom line is I am not getting the frequency of discipline that I think I deserve and know I need, and while she is fully aware of that and sympathizes she simply doesn’t have the bandwidth at the moment to think about discipline as often as I think it’s warranted. So I’m feeling the same imbalance, but i guess my situation is closer to Norton than Mike. I don’t really have a solution, just hope that next year is calmer than this and her level of interest in discipline ramps back up again. TG
ReplyDelete"I don’t really have a solution, just hope that next year is calmer than this and her level of interest in discipline ramps back up again."
DeleteFor me, years really do have their own particular "good" and "bad" dynamics. Even without a real job, 2023 has seemed like a grind. I hope 2024 is less so for your wife.
I don't think I ever behaved long enough for my wife to have an opportunity to lose interest in punishing me!
DeleteKOJ
Like Dan, my wife immediately recognized the benefit of the paddle when applied vigorously to my bare behind. Her process over several years was first, to expand the reasons for which I was punished, and second, to begin to enjoy her authority and even expand it to other areas of her life.
ReplyDeleteTo Mike I would say a few things:
You are finally getting what you didn't have for ten years -- but it's not enough! How about being overly grateful that your vanilla wife is doing DD at all?
If you want her to be the leader, then you have to let her lead in the way she sees fit.
You just started this in August. She's brand new to the idea of DD. Give it some time!
Do you ever have company? I would be mortified to have a list of my infractions on the refrigerator for all to see. That's punishment!
And most of all: You identified her key issue: "... my wife is completely worn out from taking care of our kids." That's what you should address. Do more with and for the kids when you are home. Or hire some help. Or both. She should have at least two blocks of time per week to do whatever she wants, with you taking full responsibilty for the children.
Give her more of what she needs and she is more likely to give you more of what you crave.
Here's a paradox in the first years of our DD (until I was well-trained): the better I responded to my wife's spankings, the more spankings I got!
Why? Two reasons: One, she saw that they worked to improve my attitude and subdue my male ego, but I still had a long way to go in her eyes. And two, she saw that spankings worked so she kept adding issues covered by DD. First it was all about respecting her. Then she added treating the kids better. Then she added respecting others. Then she added punctuality. Then she added my drinking. Then she added picking up after myself. Then she added actual chores. Then she added procrastination. On and on -- a seeming receding horizon of new issues that guaranteed me an almost constant sore backside for a decade.
And she was right about every single issue.
KOJ
"Here's a paradox in the first years of our DD (until I was well-trained): the better I responded to my wife's spankings, the more spankings I got!
DeleteWhy? Two reasons: One, she saw that they worked to improve my attitude and subdue my male ego, but I still had a long way to go in her eyes. And two, she saw that spankings worked so she kept adding issues covered by DD."
Although maybe it is a paradox, it also makes perfect sense.
In addition to the reasons you lay out for your wife amping things up over time, for my wife I would add that over time she has clearly come to enjoy having more power and authority.
KOJ, seems like you have some suggested some good ideas. Most of us hard core spankos have wanted more strictness and accountability than we were initially receiving. It took me quite awhile to realize that what I really needed and craved was not just F/M spanking, but for her to assume real authority and use it. While my partner has said she doesn't enjoy punishing me, she does appreciate having the power to influence how things go, especially having more help with household chores, as well as other practical benifits for her. A few examples of that are her demanding I put the toilet seat down or turning off the cell before having a meal. If I get a text with a photo of a toilet sweat up, I know I am in for a hard paddling. Mike, one thing that struck me in your story was how young your wife is. Most of our wives or S/Os are older women, and women seem to get more confident with age. Having 3 small kids, it's a wonder you get spanked at all! If you can take more of the huge burden off of her, as KOJ suggested, she might be more open to understanding how important and necessary it is for you to be taken in hand. Achieving a real DD relationship is definitely an ongoing process, and takes time, patience and commitment. You'll know you've truly arrived when other wives comment about how helpful and thoughtful you are. It might help if she is willing to consider maintenance spanking. It could be connected with something she enjoyed, like going out to dinner, and have a sitter, so you could both get a break from the kids and noise. Like KOJ, the number of things I will be punished for has grown with time. Actually, that works well for me. Even though I am old, I still sometimes feel the need to be punished. For me, this is an obsession that never goes away for long. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is how connected spanking and sex can be for many of us. She will sometimes mention how Iam overdue for a spanking, or having a witness, because she knows it turns me on. DD helps keep sex alive, and that is good for a healthy marriage. Hang in there, Mike. As long as you put her first, help her out as much as possible, and let her know how appreciative you are that she is willing to spank you when you need it, things will get better.
DeleteMy wife was only a little older than Mike's when we started DD, and having little kids definitely was a huge reason that consistency was lasting. Now, it's not like there has been a sea change where consistency is concerned since we have become empty-nesters. But, I think some of that is related to the pattern that became engrained when kids were around.
Delete"It took me quite awhile to realize that what I really needed and craved was not just F/M spanking, but for her to assume real authority and use it." - Exactly!
Delete-ZM
When we started DD, we both considered ourselves equal -- she just had a special tool to help me be accountable. By the time our DD was full-blown, however, it was obvious to most that she wore the pants in the family. Still, if it was a big decision we made it together. I just had to be careful not to be caustic or sarcastic or she would stop the discussion, paddle me hard, and then resume the discussion.
DeleteKOJ
"When we started DD, we both considered ourselves equal -- she just had a special tool to help me be accountable." For us, there was a recognition that while equality was the goal, the reality was that my personality was more forceful, I was the primary bread winner, etc., such that as a practical matter my position in the relationship often topped hers. DD was a conscious effort to get to something like actual equality by empowering her and disempowering me.
DeleteWhen I first contributed on here I assumed that Mrs GL's "I'll do it on my terms but don't expect me to enjoy or talk about it" approach was at one extreme. I also, as referenced by KOJ, struggled to see the positive in the fact she would chastise me at all and thus was probably a barrier to getting Mrs GL where I thought we should be. To be honest I don't think much as changed in that regard, I am still craving the varient I desire, I just try to hide it more.
ReplyDeleteIf I was to offer a small bit of advice to Mike it would be to enjoy what you can and let the rest evolve of its own accord. Cheers GLM.
"If I was to offer a small bit of advice to Mike it would be to enjoy what you can and let the rest evolve of its own accord." It's good advice, though I also understand why it's difficult in practice.
DeleteI agree with GLM’s advice that you should enjoy and be grateful for whatever discipline your wife gives you, even if the reality of DD never lives up to the ideal of consistency, strictness, and severity you crave or fantasize about. I have come to accept that for me there will always be a gap between the ideal and the reality. I am like GLM in that sense.
DeleteWhat we ask of our wives gives them responsibility they may sometimes find onerous. As a thought experiment, ask yourself how you would feel if your wife asked you to be her disciplinarian. If my wife said, “I’ve been a naughty girl and I deserve to be spanked,” I would have no problem spanking her. In fact, it would turn me on. But if she asked me to be a full time disciplinarian, deciding when and how she should be disciplined for real, I don’t know whether I could do that. As adults, we are supposed to be self disciplined, but DD is like outsourcing our discipline to our partner instead of being fully responsible for own behaviour. Therefore, I think we need to be cognizant that what we ask of our wives is no small thing. That is especially true, I think, when a couple has young children. When raising children, a woman may feel isolated if she has to be a maternal disciplinarian to her husband too. That may be one reason that some women only become receptive to the role of spousal disciplinarian in middle age, when they no longer have young children on their hands.
GH
My wife's approach was also nonnegotiable. But I didn't have the same issue as many of you because I didn't crave spankings ... at all! I accepted them because of the obvious benefits. Yes, there were times when I felt myself running off the rails and maybe wished she had reined me in sooner. But there were many more times when she nipped me in the bud and I didn't get to enjoy my misbehavior at all!
DeleteKOJ
GH said: "As adults, we are supposed to be self disciplined, but DD is like outsourcing our discipline to our partner instead of being fully responsible for own behaviour. Therefore, I think we need to be cognizant that what we ask of our wives is no small thing."
DeleteI agree in part but also disagree in part. I wholly agree that what we ask of our wives is no small thing. But, the benefits it gives them, including the power they enjoy as compared to other wives, is no small thing either. Obviously, it's a problem if the wife gets all the responsibility but none of the emotional benefit, because perhaps she is just wired or conditioned such that she is never going to enjoy the power and control and perhaps is even put off by them. I know that I could not personally be a disciplinarian, not because I would find it too burdensome but because I not only don't get off on controlling others but have an aversion to doing so.
I also don't really agree that we are outsourcing our self-discipline responsibilities, or at least I don't fully agree. The fact is, while Anne still doesn't take up the paddle enough when something pisses her off, there certainly have been many times when she has seen something as a big issue, while I either didn't care about it at all or did so to a much lesser degree. In those cases, we may have disagreed on whether I really should have been more self-disciplined, but thanks to our DD arrangement it was her view that counted. And, for her one big benefit of DD is adjusting the power structure more in favor so the relationship is more balanced and equal, which doesn't really have to much to do with whether I am or am not self-disciplined.
One big irony with DD seems to be that, I would bet a lot of money, most of the men who ask for it are probably MORE disciplined than most of the rest of the adult male population. We just hold ourselves to higher standards and, when we don't meet them, more readily seek out additional "leverage" to ensure better performance in the future.
I may hold myself to standards higher thsn most of the adult MALE population, but nowhere near the standards of my wife (and most of the adult FEMALE population)!
DeleteKOJ
KOJ: Well that goes without saying, right? :-)
DeleteI think I was self-disciplined in some areas but not others. I had blind spots. I was a typical male who believed in lots of effort at work and little effort at home. The kids and the house are her only job, after all. I bring home the bacon, she cooks it.
DeletePart of my attitude was that I was raised by a single mother who worked outside the home and took care of us as well. So my wife had it easy from my perspective.
My mother assigned us chores, and the big wooden spoon came out if we didn't do them. But marriage was different, in my attitude. My wife had no power over me like mom did.
I was quite the jerk before DD. But once my wife started wielding the paddle and her feminine power, I felt an odd sense of relief. My home was now being run more like the one I grew up in. I was now under female authority again. I realized I had missed it. I think this is how and why I was able to accept corporal punishment for so long without it being a kink of mine.
It is this kind of realization that is the reason I read and write here. I am learning more about my internal psychology and the dynamics of my marriage. I never had anyone to speak with about it before.
KOJ
Dan, I agree with you that there are benefits for our wives that go along with the responsibilities of DD. My wife wasn’t keen on spanking me at first, but when I pitched DD to her as part of a full FLR, she agreed to give it a try. It worked out, I think, because she liked the benefits. For example, making me do much more of the housework was a biggie, I think. As was the power to nip arguments in the bud by spanking me or threatening to spank me. But some women might not be able to enjoy those benefits because of the way they have been socialized.
DeleteAlthough my wife has said that spanking in itself isn’t erotic for her, I think that power might be. I say that because when I look back over the 20+ years of our FLR, I notice a pattern: during phases of increased erotic activity, she would be more strict and demanding, and quicker to resort to spanking. Because spanking was never a direct prelude to sex, I figured it wasn’t erotic to her. But I have concluded that there was some more subtle connection between her libido and her willingness to exercise power. Unfortunately, because of health issues and the effects of age, we have rarely been sexually active over the last couple of years. That drop in sexual interest has corresponded not only to decreased discipline but also to a reduction of bossiness in my wife. For example, as I write this, my wife is busy tidying up the room. At the height of our FLR, she would have ordered me to get off my butt and tidy the room. But now when she sees something to be done, she often just does it herself. I miss the days when she was bossier and unconcerned about fairness. I have told her that, and sometimes she will be bossy for a couple of days. But her enjoyment of power seems to have dropped along with her interest in sex.
GH
KOJ, it sounds like you and I are probably about one generation apart, so it may not be surprising that I wasn't quite as "traditional" as you on the "I bring home the bacon" stuff as you were even before DD. I've always been fairly good (in my view, at least) at doing my share of the household chores. Though, she definitely handled more of the child-raising than I did, but I think that was more about the kids' genders than about mine.
DeleteWhile DD did take me down a peg, honestly, I think the process of doing that probably changed her more than me, While I certainly had my rough edges, in the early days it wasn't so much that I was a jerk but, rather, that she was too passive and had been conditioned too much by a traditional Catholic home in which dad ruled and mom sulked or pushed back passive-aggressively. DD gave her a more concrete way of asserting herself, which made her more naturally assertive over time.
I'm glad writing here is a learning tool for you. It's the same for me. I often have limited visibility into my own mindset until I start writing about it, then the revelations come popping out.
Two very good questions and both have been puzzling (and irritating me!) since we started DD c. 10 years ago. The main feedback I have to my wife is around consistency. Her interest in using DD to resolve any marital issues ebbs and flows. We go for weeks where she is happy to apply the strap on a regular basis for any rudeness, disrespect or moodiness. Then something changes and we may argue and be less close. I have explained to her many times that her best response is not to allow arguments, not to partake but to deal with the dispute either with a warning or a spanking. I am very logical and see the power of 'cause and effect' - she is more emotional and perhaps loses confidence or interest. It seems like we both have to be in the right frame of mind for DD to be applied & to work. I appreciate that spanking is easier for her when she may be mildly irritated but that it can be more difficult when there is anger or a heated dispute involved. I have explained that actually those are the most important power building times, when she can deal with a relatively serious breach via a hard spanking, facing me down (in more ways than one!) rather than responding emotionally. I often feel that if our roles were reversed that I would be much more consistent in handing out the punishment. TB
ReplyDelete"It seems like we both have to be in the right frame of mind for DD to be applied & to work. I appreciate that spanking is easier for her when she may be mildly irritated but that it can be more difficult when there is anger or a heated dispute involved."
DeleteWe have something similar in our dynamic too. When I've asked my wife about why she doesn't turn to spankings more readily when she's really pissed, she says that for some reason she often just doesn't think of it at that moment. I don't really understand that, but it is what it is.
My wife didn't have this issue with DD, but she also didn't let our arguments get out of hand to the point of getting overemotional. I can't tell you how many times I heard, "You are NOT going to speak to me that way. Go get the bath brush." This would be after my first semi-rude (to me) sentence. She believed in the proactive approach!
DeleteKOJ
Here’s a consideration. Suppose you behave in a manner that annoys your wife. She deals with the annoyance by spanking you. You acknowledge that you behaved badly, you apologize, and she forgives you. With that ritual the slate is wiped clean. Her feeling of annoyance and your feeling of guilt have been purged. Now suppose that you have done something that really angers your wife, something she considers to be really serious. I think it is possible that the wife in that circumstance could feel that “clearing the slate” by spanking you right away would let you off too easily. Maybe she doesn’t want to clear the slate right away. Maybe she wants to let you stew in your guilt while she takes some time to process her own feelings. Just a thought.
DeleteGH
Sure. I agree. In such cases my wife would say, "One spanking isn't enough for this misbehavior. You're getting it every day for a week." Or ... "every day until I'm convinced you've learned your lesson." The slate was wiped clean when she said it was. Part of her authority.
DeleteKOJ
I think jumping in quickly to either order a spanking or give a very stern warning would be the ideal. But, it seems like on the rare occasions that Anne or I get into a serious argument, our tempers both flare so quickly that *neither* of us is really acting sufficiently grown up to have that kind of level-headed control.
DeleteI had been in a 24/7 FLM prior, so trained and living as a submissive. She was a vanilla wife and aware of the DD lifestyle, but not practiced it. When we got together and got serious, I explained my full background and a FLR with DD household is what I wanted. She is European and a schoolteacher, so there was a dominant streak in her, just hidden. She took to her 'new' role immediately and spanked me the first day I move in. She needed to train me to her likes and ways and spanked for that. Also her idea of my behavior was different than my former wife. After a few years of being spanked very often, my behavior and way of life was brought around to her standards and discipline spankings dropped off drastically. We both came up with a maintenance program and it has worked well for us. She likes the physical act of spanking me and enjoys the fruits of my improved behavior and keeping up with my chores. She has said she does not like punishing me, but will when necessary. I am spanked on average twice weekly for maintenance and punished as needed. This has worked well for us now going into our 14th year together.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I know every marriage is different, it is interesting how easy it seems to be for many vanilla women to move seemingly very easily into a DD role.
DeleteTwice weekly is a lot! My bruises never would have gone away.
DeleteKOJ
Most vanilla women have familiarity with spanking between parent and child, either as giver or receiver or both. I don't think it's a huge leap for them to see how it could help with their husband's childish behavior!
DeleteKOJ
KOJ, Twice weekly is on average. We schedule by tossing dice so It could be once a week or even as many as 4 times, so it averages out to twice a week…. And soreness does not go away all the time. I do agree with you on vanilla women do have some inherent spanking or discipline tendencies, add to that, my gal was a schoolteacher in a state that still used paddling for discipline.
DeleteMy wife was a teacher for a short while, and I am sure it helped her scolding technique. After she went into real estate, her punishments became more brusque and businesslike!
DeleteKOJ
I do think school teaching gives them an edge. I can see a real estate professional doling out very businesslike spankings.
DeleteAnne was a teacher, and it's taken me a while to figure out that in some ways the modern teaching gig is an impediment. They are trained to try to maintain order, but they are also trained to do it without yelling, showing, anger, or really displaying any emotion. And, if they do really get in face of an unruly teenager, it's a given that the parents will whine and, nine times out of ten, the principal will back the students over the teacher.
DeleteYes, Dan, that is the case these days. She has been out of teaching several years now and glad. Back when she taught, the Georgia schools still condoned and used paddling for discipline. Many of her teacher friends have told her how things have changed since she left.
DeleteDan wrote: “Anne was a teacher, and it's taken me a while to figure out that in some ways the modern teaching gig is an impediment. They are trained to try to maintain order, but they are also trained to do it without yelling, showing, anger, or really displaying any emotion. And, if they do really get in face of an unruly teenager, it's a given that the parents will whine and, nine times out of ten, the principal will back the students over the teacher.”
DeleteThere is a trend here: my wife was a teacher too. You are right, Dan, that teaching is a different gig today than it was when we were kids. Class management is more challenging today for the reasons you mention. But I’m not sure I would agree that teaching is an impediment to DD. A successful teacher today still needs to project an air of authority. It doesn’t involve yelling or hauling a kid into the hall for a strapping like it used to. But a teacher still needs to convey to kids that she is not going to take any shit and that she expects to be respected. She also needs to have the backbone to stand up to overindulgent parents and cowardly administrators. That takes confidence, inner strength, and a belief that she has a right to set behavioural expectations in her classroom. Unfortunately, many teachers who lack those qualities get eaten alive in the classroom and are eventually driven out of the profession. I believe that my wife succeeded as a teacher because she has personality traits that are transferable to DD and FLR. With or without a paddle in hand, she knows how to project an air of authority. I think her teaching career probably contributed to that. So I think it may be more than coincidental that so many disciplinary wives had teaching careers.
GH
If you can handle 30 seventh-graders, you can certainly handle one husband. All the easier if you spank him.
DeleteKOJ
I think many teachers do get driven out of the profession nowadays because of discipline issues, but I don't think it's because they commonly lack qualities and inner strength. Rather, it's because when the teacher does stand up to the parents, it is seldom backed by the administrators. So, they are in a no-win situation. The support for teachers just isn't what it was 20 years ago.
DeleteYou are right that it is a tougher job nowadays, Dan, for the reason you give. Maybe it is victim blaming to imply that being driven out of the profession is due to something lacking in the teacher. But I do believe some teachers have personality traits that are transferable to DD.
DeleteGH
I don’t live in the USA, but I also think that some teachers in your country probably get driven out of the classroom by the insane culture war BS that has transformed many parents into vigilante thugs out to purge schools of any trace of “wokeness”. Who would want to teach under such conditions? Education hasn’t yet been as politicized where I live, but our conservatives eventually pick up every bad idea to come out of the Republican Party a few years later.
DeleteGH
Off subject, but thought this crowd might enjoy:
ReplyDeleteRyan O'Neal (RIP) was wrong, "Love DOES Mean Having To Say You Are Sorry",
IF you are a well disciplined husband/boyfriend in a 24/7 WLM/FLR, because you are probably saying it with a red, hot, stinging, freshly paddled bare bottom!!
Haha! I always thought that was one of the dumbest lines ever and obviously written by someone who hadn't ever been married.
DeleteKOJ, what you do about your need for discipline since you lost your wife? Both you and Tony (Husband of the late, great, Aunt Kay) have contributed much to this blog, and it makes me wonder if you guys get those needs satisfied somehow. Because you contribute, it seems to indicate you still have interest.
ReplyDeleteNorton,
DeleteI haven't done anything other than read and contribute here, and I doubt I will do anything else. I can't see me getting married again, and to me DD is a marital thing.
I don't miss being spanked but I do miss the intimacy and security we shared through unequal authority.
She told me before she died, "You're well-trained. Whether you stay single or get married again, you'll be fine. And if you aren't, I'll come down from heaven and beat your ass!"
KOJ
Thanks for responding to my question. Like you, I lost my wife, but it was through splitting up. I certainly didn't want to get married again, but found a lady that loves me and understands me much better than my wife did. We don't live together, but we are together often, and it seems to be working out well. Like you, the main thing for me is the intimacy and allowing myself to be vulnerable, as well as submitting to her authority. My wife pretended to enjoy F/M spanking, but she wasn't really into it like yours obviously was. My hope you is that, in time, you may find another lady that could provide that for you. I have enjoyed your contributions.
DeleteThanks Dan for including my suggestion in this weeks discussion and for everyone‘s input. I guess my email came across as me just „wanting more DD“ but that is just one aspect. Yes, at times it can be quite bothering if I think I live in a DD relationship just to find out that I guess I dońt as my wife let´s things slide all the time or just forgets about the spankings she annouced. But my main concern is that my loving and amazing wife is doing something for me that she dislikes doing or might view as a chore or burden. Now I don`t want to be a burden to her. I was just really curious if some of the contributers on this blog witnessed the change of an initial reluctant disciplinarian to a more confident and eager disciplinarian. I guess all I can do is to be on my best behaviour after a spanking and show her that the spankings actually work in the hope that she will see the fruits of her labour. Now as DD is a process and our family environment right now is not very beneficial to DD, I hope with time it will be less wierd for her and she will come to appreciate her power. Mike
ReplyDeleteFor what it's worth, I did not take your email as you "just wanting more DD." It's perfectly fine to want consistency, even if things like a family environment with young kids may make that difficult.
DeleteMost here seem to react in horror when I say this, but there have been a few comments over the years--interestingly, mainly from women--who grew up in households where it was more or less openly acknowledged that the mom was the disciplinarian for all those in the household, including dad. There wasn't a big deal made about it, but the kids all knew that if mom and dad made a little trip to the basement together, it was for the purposes of mom blistering dad's butt. Looking back, I can't say that our paranoia about kids finding out necessarily served any real purpose other than protecting me from embarrassment that might itself have been a powerful incentive to behave better.
Mike, I think you have the right idea: show her that her discipline has a positive effect on your behaviour. If she can see the benefits, it will seem like less of a chore. Since the thing that prompted your wife to try DD was your failure to help around the house as much as she wanted, you know what you need to do to show her the fruits of her labour. I was also in the habit of thanking my wife in writing every time she spanked me. My message would include an acknowledgment of the reason I deserved to be spanked, an apology, a promise to do better, and an expression of gratitude for caring enough to give me what I needed. I would also tell her how sexy she was as a disciplinarian. You said in your email to Dan, “I have no say in discipline whatsoever.” That’s the same with me. My wife spanks me when and how she sees fit. That can be frustrating when she says she is going to spank me then forgets about it. On the other hand, I like the fact that she does it on her terms, and not terms dictated by me. The way my wife is, having kids in the house would probably cramp her style because she is basically a spur of the moment spanker. If she doesn’t spank me when she is in the mood, she might forget about it altogether.
DeleteThere is another statement in your email to Dan that caught my eye. You said that your wife is thoroughly vanilla and doesn’t have “a kinky bone in her body”. Are you absolutely sure about that? Some psychologists and sex therapists believe that most people have kinky fantasies, but many people are too ashamed of their kinks to reveal them, even to their intimate partners. You said yourself that you were too embarrassed to reveal your spanking kink to your wife for ten years. I was like that too. But once I revealed that I had a domination/ submission kink, we also started to talk about her sexual fantasies and whether there were kinky things I could do for her. We bought a couple of books about sexual fantasies to facilitate the exploration. Though my wife isn’t a spanko like me, we discovered that she isn’t completely vanilla either. Maybe your wife is thoroughly vanilla. But maybe not. Just a thought.
GH
I like the idea of a written thank you -- description of the behavior, apology, promise to do better, and expression of gratitude. If done on the computer, it also creates an ongoing record. You could see how many times you were punished the previous year and for what.
DeleteI would love to have that now to help me look back at her authority.
KOJ
Mike,
DeleteI know you might think that if you start helping a lot more that you will get spanked even less than you are now -- so you seem to have a disincentive to be more helpful. And that may happen in the short run. But eventually she is going to realize that you are bring helpful at least partly because she punished you and not merely out of the goodness of your heart. She also is likely to show her appreciation. She might thank you and ask what she can do in return, to which you can reply, "Make me put it in writing that I will keep helping you, and punish me when I slip. Please be really strict! You can see that works with me!"
KOJ
Thanks KOJ for your input. Regarding my wife not being kinky: I guess you are right in the regard that you'll never know. More and more I realize that she is capable of far more than she or I expect. A few months ago she told me she could never spank me because she can not ever imagine hurting me. Last sunday during our weekly review session that was quite a different picture as I was pleading for her to stop applying that damn cane. I guess very introverted or closed up persons might have a hard time finding out themselves if they are kinky. Sometimes I wonder if a very religous background is making it harder for some people to find their kink. Either way I try to be on my best behaviour this week to show her DD is working and avoid our weekly session. Mike
DeleteI don't doubt that being very religious inhibits finding kink (or at least honestly admitting to it), but I think for DD its more about hierarchy. Many Christian denominations (and some other religions as well) have promoted a view that husbands rule and women are subservient. And, even in situations where that religious dogma isn't up front, that hierarchy becomes a cultural thing that teaches young girls "their place." My wife is not that religious these days but she did grow up in a very traditional Catholic family, and I think that was one of the reasons she had issues early on with assertiveness and with really taking on a role at the top of the hiearchy.
DeleteStrong patriarchy pervades the entire culture, although it is definitely weakening, most conspicuously in younger population cohorts. Religions, both Christian and Islam, reinforce and in some cases enforce patriarchal principals. In my view most modern religions are both a cause of patriarch and it's effect
DeleteAlan
Agreed, Alan. Though, it's hard to say how much of the issues with the religious right are about patriarchy, versus sheer hypocrisy and an affinity for authoritarianism. I'm thinking specifically of the "Moms for Liberty" (a group of right-wing advocates, many of them fundamentalist Christians) founder, who is a big proponent of Ron DeSantis' anti-LGBT educational initiatives and who was elected to a local school board. She was recently outed as having a three-way with her husband and another woman, apparently forgetting that the "B" in LGBT+ stands for "bi-sexual." Seems to me like the females in many of those fundamentalist rightwing movements aren't really victims of the puritanical patriarchy. They've just gotten into their husbands' hypocritical power mongering.
DeleteI have known many Christian families (Jewish, too, for that matter) where the husband/father was ostensibly the head of the household, but the wife/mother made 95% of the decisions. The only things he had purview over were his toys: car, boat, motorcycle, etc. Even then, he wouldn't dare buy one of those without her agreement. But they kept up appearances --- he sat at the head of the dinner table -- and he may have actually believed he was in charge. F/m DD would have crushed his fantasy of being the HoH, which may be the only reason she didn't take up the paddle.
DeleteKOJ
KOJ, when I was a kid my father was definitely the HoH, even though he often deferred to my mother. I don’t think think that is a contradiction.
DeleteGH
Dan,
DeleteThe core dynamic that seems to characterize much of the religious fundamentalist frenzy is fear of and repression of human sexuality. To play Freud for a moment, repression seems especially strong, as illustrated in the countless instances over the years of right-wing scandals such as the Ziegler case to which you allude. The hypocrisy is stunning, yet it cannot be that rare.
There is a particularly incisive piece by David French in the Times this week (Why Fundamentalists Love Trump). French himself, who is a practicing evangelical, offers some rich insight into the Fundamentalist mindset that produces so much otherwise paradoxical behavior
Alan
I'll try to find that David French piece. I've always generally assumed that evangelicals simply gravitate toward authoritarianism. When they quote from the Bible, it's almost always from the Old Testament, with a vengeful and jealous god punishing from on high. They fall for authoritarian, charismatic religious leaders. So, it's not a stretch that they prefer their political leaders to have authoritarian tendencies. Basically, they are sheep who have a fixation on the wolves.
DeleteThis is a bit off topic, but I got spanked this morning. It’s a big thing for me because I don’t get spanked much anymore. My wife asked (commanded?) me to wash some windows while the sun was out. I did as I was told, but after I finished I had trouble getting a couple of the screens back on. I got quickly frustrated and started to swear. My wife didn’t get angry, but she pointed out a couple of times that it was childish to lose my temper because it did nothing to help the situation. I knew she was right, but I couldn’t stop myself from cursing. When I finally managed to get the screens on, she calmly told me to go to the bedroom and take my pants down. It wasn’t a hard, angry spanking. She very calmly told me I was having my “bare bum paddled” like a little boy because I had behaved like a child, and she made me admit I had been childish. The spanking hurt a bit, but because I felt so ashamed, it seemed to hurt more. As she spanked me, I thought about the harsh spankings some of you guys get, and I wondered how you guys can bear really severe spankings. Even her scolding seemed mild and gentle. The thought occurred to me that she really was spanking me like a little boy, not with the harshness that would really hurt a grown man. That deepened my feeling of shame, maybe more than a severe “adult quality” spanking would have. As I write this, I am alone because my wife left to have lunch with my sister-in-law shortly after spanking me. I am sorting out my thoughts and feelings about what just happened. Relative to this week’s topic, I don’t think what my wife did was a chore for her. I feel as though she enjoyed chastising me in a manner that expressed her feelings in the moment. It wasn’t the kind of spanking I fantasize about, but it was definitely real…and thoroughly humbling. Of course, given the way my mind works, I imagine that she could at this moment be telling my sister-in-law that she has just spanked me. The thought is embarrassing, but I also have a feeling that it is entirely my wife’s prerogative to talk about it to whomever she pleases. At the same time, I feel that what just happened was deeply intimate and erotic. Because of my health issues, we haven’t been able to have actual sex for a long time. My wife knows I am frustrated by a seemingly permanent state of impotence, but she says that’s okay at our current stage of life, that she doesn’t need me to be able to get erections. But I feel as though this morning’s spanking was her way of telling me, in the most erotic way possible, that she still loves me. In return, I feel deep devotion to her and a desire to serve her.
ReplyDeleteGH
GH,
DeleteIt sounds like you and your wife have reached a wonderful point of congruence! May it always be so!
KOJ
Dan, it is interesting your interest in DD is correlated with testosterone levels. Do you see this impacting your compliance with submitting to your wife if she was upset and dictated a spanking while your interest/testosterone was low. Could you see yourself saying no in the event she said a spanking was in order?
ReplyDeleteDDanon40
DDanon40: No, not really. I think it could make a spanking harder to take, due to generally lower energy levels, but it wouldn't cause me to refuse. The closest I have ever come to flat-out refusing was once when we had been drinking and she was tipsy. For safety reasons, DWI (discipline while intoxicated) is a hard "no" for me. I could see it possibly happening if we were in the middle of a real fight and emotions were running too high at that moment (which probably would be more likely when my testosterone was running HIGH), but in 20 years that hasn't been an issue.
DeleteHi K here. It's been a while since I've posted.
ReplyDeleteJ is definitely a "natural" disciplinarian. What she likes is that, unlike in here career, at home her authority is unquestioned. But she doesn't go out of her way to make excuses to punish me (and when she does, it's DEFINITELY punishment). She simply expects that the authority we've agreed she has will be respected. It's not explicitly sexual, though her authority certainly extends to (and is exercised in) our bedroom. Sex is, overwhelmingly, something we do for her pleasure and on her terms. She lets me climax, but only sparingly, as a treat. And when I get disciplined, there's no sex for either of us associated with it or following it.
That said, there's definitely a "feedback" loop with her sex drive and her propensity to discipline me, though it's somewhat indirect, I think. When she's feeing more sexual, she teases me, and I'm both more aroused and more frustrated. This makes me more likely to forget myself, sometimes be grumpy, disagreeable, or demanding. And that results in swift correction from her.
She's has been more sexual since summer, when we a bunch of other things going on. And, sure enough, after a few weeks of being driven fairly wild without much relief, I snapped at her over dinner about something stupid. That got me a couple dozen hard, painful strokes of the cane as soon as we got home. (Fortunately, she didn't make me climax first as she does when she wants to REALLY drive home the point). Message received!
You are a lucky man, K! Sounds like a great relationship.
DeleteI have a question about being made to cum before punishment. I can see that having an orgasm before a spanking would make it feel more painful by taking away the erotic element. But would the forced orgasm before a spanking not be incredibly intense because of arousal by the idea of what was about to happen? Maybe intense enough to compensate for the pain to follow?
My wife has never made me cum before a spanking, so I can only imagine it. However, on a couple of occasions she told me that if I wanted an orgasm, I would have to eat my ejaculate afterwards. (I gave her that idea by writing about the fantasy in my journal). Though I didn’t want to eat my cum, I had intense orgasms because there was such an intense D/s vibe. Of course, once I had orgasmed, it was very unpleasant following through. But maybe it was worth it. I wonder whether cumming before a spanking would be a bit like that.
GH
GH,
DeleteThe first time she did it the anticipation was exciting, but that was only because I had no real idea what I was in for. Any physical pleasure is over very quickly. She has me use her vibrator, which gets the job done in no time. I've usually lost most of any erection I had by the time my pants are down, but the vibrator still gets through. What follows is pure punishment, with no sexual edge at all. There's no sexual element to counter the pain or energize me through it. Usually she uses a rubber strap that hurts like hell even with a warm up (and I definitely get no warm up if I'm being punished). There is absolutely nothing you would confuse with fun or sexiness about the whole ordeal. After considerable time passes, I can look back on it and feel warm and grateful, because I LOVE being in a relationship where my wife has that authority and isn't afraid to use it. But her punishments are something I've learned to fear and avoid, not be aroused by. So they work.
Fortunately, that kind of severe punishment is rare. It's reserved for things I know better than to do and that cause her to feel like I've deliberately defied her. It's been over a year since I've been made to orgasm before punishment or felt the rubber strap. But I know it's waiting for me if she feels I need it, and that's a powerful thing.
Her canings are also nothing to seek out, either (though not as bad as the damn rubber strap), but I was still very grateful she didn't make me come first.
I try to never give her reason to punish me. When she does, I know I had it coming.
Thanks for your answer, K. I don’t know whether I could take that kind of punishment.
DeleteGH
We had rubber straps for a while, but we eventually got rid of them. For me, the pain was simply off the charts. For her, the straps would frequently cut or break skin, and she didn't like that visual. I don't doubt you at all when you say that even without a pre-punishment orgasm, there is nothing sexual at all about a session with any heavy rubber strap.
Delete"Off the charts" is definitely right. J and I have talked about the severity of her punishments. She was adamant when we started that if I wanted this, punishment had to be real punishment, not a fun game that could indirectly encourage me to misbehave to try to get her to spank me just because I'm horny. (Mission accomplished!). For me, though the occasional punishments are something I hate, in the long run they make me feel safe and loved. I know that if I really screw up, there will be consequences, but that she will still be there when its over. For her, they provide a concrete demonstration of my contrition and commitment to her authority in our marriage, a role that she's very comfortable in and aroused by, even if she doesn't find the act itself sexual. So in a way, it's totally nonsexual, yet essential to our sexual relationship.
DeleteMeanwhile, while my bottom is no longer sore from my recent time with the cane, the effects linger in my behavior toward J. I'm treating intimacy with her as an opportunity to focus exclusively on her needs and pleasure, and I'm trying to use my frustration as energy to make her feel pampered. (I didn't do myself any favors with my grumpy outburst, and even though the caning wiped the slate clean, I know better than to ask or expect her to allow me any sexual relief any time soon. Maybe for Christmas?).
"She was adamant when we started that if I wanted this, punishment had to be real punishment, not a fun game that could indirectly encourage me to misbehave to try to get her to spank me just because I'm horny." That was probably our very earliest rule, because we had experimented with erotic spanking, and she decided it sent the wrong message, delivering fake punishments for real offenses.
DeleteI go back and forth on whether a true punishment can still be "too much." I do feel like there is an important mental element of accepting accountability. During a hard spanking, I will sometimes remind myself that I put myself in this position and could avoid such pain by behaving better in the future. But, I've found that with some instruments--those rubber straps in particular--the pain was so extreme that all such thoughts were driven from my brain as I simply tried to gut it out. On the other hand, one could argue that a very painful punishment has a purpose regardless of whether you "accept" it in the moment. In fact, maybe it reinforces that if she is really in charge she can and should punish whether you "accept" it or not. As I said, I go back and forth on it.
Dan, if I felt like I had a granular choice, I'd feel the same as you. That damn strap is way more painful than I think is reasonable or feel like I can "take". But it doesn't cause me any permanent physical damage, and I somehow survive. And that's not the choice I have in any case. I think the choice is either I let her decide how I'm punished (within the limits of actual safety), or we put aside being in a disciplinary relationship. And I cherish both this aspect of the relationship as well as J. I might complain, but I have no complaints!
DeleteBasically, our disciplinary relationship is "she's my disciplinarian, even - maybe especially - if I'm not into it at the time"
Delete"Basically, our disciplinary relationship is "she's my disciplinarian, even - maybe especially - if I'm not into it at the time."
DeleteMakes perfect sense.
One very practical reason that I've had a choice among the tools she uses is the simple fact that, with one exception, I've bought all of them. About two years ago, out of the blue she bought her own bath brush. Until then, I bought every single one of our fairly large collection of paddles, straps, brushes, etc. So, I had only myself to blame for deciding to experiment with rubber tools. And, for that same reason, I didn't feel any particular guilt about throwing them away. Though, it was true that she too disliked them because of the physical damage they did to the skin.
It occurs to me that I'm probablty in the minority here (certainly among those who post) in not wishing my wife were stricter or more severe with me. I feel like she's exactly as strict with me as I need, but that she's more severe than she needs to be (and definitely MUCH more severe than I'd enjoy). But we came to our FLR from a more expansive BDSM-type relationship, not a vanilla marriage. So we both had experience (as switches) giving and receiving pain, and so we weren't squeamish or timid about the practical realities of physical punishment when it came time for here to do it "for real". I know I'm safe, even if it really hurts, and she know's she's not causing permanent damage even if she has to make it really hurt.
DeleteI can imagine how having been on the receiving end might liberate someone when it comes to doling it out.
DeleteSorry about the typos above - stupid phone keyboard and my fat fingers!
ReplyDeleteDan, this is off topic, but I just want to say that I find that coloured drawing in this week’s blog of the woman holding the mistletoe in a provocative place really really hot! Lol.
ReplyDeleteGH