A person who is knowingly bent on bad behavior, gets upset when better behavior is expected of them. - Jane Austen
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship.
I hope you all had a great week. Mine was pretty good. After complaining all last year about our lack of snow, this year I’ve found myself hoping for a break from it. This week, contrary to the groundhog’s prediction of six more weeks of winter, it’s been almost Spring-like. It feels like motorcycle weather is just around the corner.
As a preliminary matter, I wanted to check in on the Blogger sign-in issues. While it’s definitely an intrusive move on Google’s part to require a sign-in (and to require that it be exclusively a Gmail account), it doesn’t seem to have prevented any of our regulars from commenting. I hope I’m right about that. I did take a look at the blog’s statistics and, while the change hasn’t been in place long enough for me to really determine whether there is an emerging pattern or just random noise, it does look like the average readership dropped significantly over the last couple of weeks. Anne is also frustrated with it and doesn’t seem to want to get a fake Google account.
So, it may be that a move to another platform is becoming inevitable. I’ve been playing around with a WordPress version, but working with their templates isn’t nearly as easy as Blogger and I’m not really satisfied with the look and feel yet. But, I may have to just live with it. Here’s what I have done so far. I’d be interested in your feedback.
After having a good run of inspiration for blog topics, this week I seem to have run out of gas. I don’t have a particular topic in mind, but instead of not posting, I thought maybe we could follow up on a few comments from last week.
Near the end of the week, ZM note that he and his wife haven’t established any formal “rules” per se and asked for input from the group on what rules others have put in place. I don’t think many saw that request, as only a couple of us responded. If you do have either agreed-upon rules or rules that she has imposed, do you mind sharing? I’d also be curious, have any of the wives imposed a rule that you actually don’t agree with?
On the subject of rules, KOJ said:
We definitely had a set of rules, all of which she established and enforced with spanking. But she also was very much into spanking for "disrespect" and ungentlemanly conduct," and that could take almost any form. Occasionally I would be surprised by her reasoning, but usually she was spot on.
Did spankings decline as she "trained" me? Yes, but not as much as one might imagine because she kept setting the bar for my behavior higher and higher. Plus, she both needed to and enjoyed asserting her female authority, and nothing did so as directly and dramatically as ordering me to take down my pants.
We didn't do maintenance, but there were times when I noticed her getting antsy and I knew she would soon be finding a (good enough) reason to put me over her knee. Sort of a gender reversal from the more typical situation of the disciplined husband needing a reset. It was her demonstrating that "I'm in charge here, and don't you forget it!"
Regarding whether the frequency of spankings declines as a husband becomes better “trained”, have you experienced the same phenomenon KOJ references, i.e. that the frequency doesn’t go down as much as you might have expected, because the bar keeps getting raised?
Also, what about the “gender reversal” reset he referenced? Do your wives start getting “antsy” if they haven’t spanked you in a while? I used to think that Anne saw spanking as kind of a chore, and perhaps for a long time she did. I think that changed, however, a year or so ago when we simplified things and sort of streamlined all the “ritual” around a session. While she hasn’t said so expressly, I do think there are times when she does almost hope I’ll do something to earn one.
As I said when answering ZM’s question, early on we did have agreed-upon rules. We really don’t anymore, though there have been consequences associated with certain things to the point that I guess you could say there is an unwritten but fully understood rule. It tends to be the “smaller” things, like not forgetting to clean something in the kitchen after dinner or not locking the doors at night.
For the most part, I’m happy with her deciding what is and is not punishable. As Alan said:
Something not much discussed is encouraging her to use her discretion makes her much more comfortable about exercising the authority most of us want our wives and G.F. to use. And the more she does use her discretion, the better her judgment is likely to be on the things that matter to both of you.
I think that’s right. ZM has commented about his wife getting very hung up on the issue of “fairness.” I’m sure that’s true for many wives, and I suspect that it takes quite a bit of time and practice for many of them to get comfortable using their discretion about when to take us over their knee. Personally though, with one or two caveats, I prefer her to use her own judgment. It makes the whole thing feel much less like I’m in control, which is one of the goals.
I also liked TB’s explanation of his journaling practice:
In my journal I also covered why DD was important to somebody (like me) who has almost as long as I can remember had a 'thing' about spanking. It is a deep 'drive/need' that I had never shared with anybody. And this drive linked with my need to have boundaries, limits and targets made it in many ways ideal to re-balance our relationship. That explanation has seemed to make complete sense to her in a way that previous attempts have failed.
The closest I have come to 'asking for it' is in such a journal where I will express the view that I deserve & need a 'reset' - but that does not stop me later trying to avoid it. I find it difficult to imagine asking to be spanked and then immediately having to submit to the spanking. It feels like the 'journal' form of request is more in line with a general consent rather than asking for an immediate, specific, painful action. TB
I like the description of his need as being about “boundaries, limits, and targets.” That really nails it with respect to what I think I found so compelling about DD when I first discovered the concept.
Like TB, I also have kept a journal from time to time that I share with Anne. She has told me that she likes it, because it gives her insight into what’s going on in my head. Like TB, I sometimes do use it to suggest a spanking is warranted for something. Though, honestly, I think that one reason I’m so inconsistent with the journaling process is the likelihood that it will result in more spankings. While consistency used to be a real issue even when I did self-report something, with the way things have changed over the last year or so it now seems to be the case that I report something in the journal, it almost certainly will result in a spanking. Probably that same day. So, journaling now seems like a form of “asking for it.” Which is . . . hard.
Speaking of asking for it, KOJ and Alan both talked about how their wives would ask them, “Do you need a spanking?” Alan observed:
Just asking me, “Do you need a spanking?” (privately) probably actually saved me from dozens of actual spankings that I was close to triggering from her.
Anne actually hasn’t given that kind of warning very often, which is too bad because I think it could be very powerful. It definitely gives me a powerful reaction just reading the words. It may be because I have a vague memory of my parents asking something very similar, though I think it was phrased as “Do you want a spanking?” Had they wanted an answer, I’m sure it would have been “no.” And, despite having initiated our DD relationship, I think the answer still would be “no” today. It’s easy to think about how much better off I would be if she was much quicker to spank, yet in the moment it would be very hard to agree I deserve one.
While the memes below are more about asking for a disciplinary relationship, as opposed to asking for a particular spanking, I thought the sequence did a nice job of laying out a compressed version of the kind of things that go through many wives' minds as they consider such a request, at least once the surprise wears off.
I look forward to your thoughts on any of the above. Have a great week.
My wife prefers explicit rules. She has a hard time spanking me for subjective offenses. She also enjoys the game of catching me breaking a rule. Spanking me isn't fun for her, but catching me is. We do "just because" spankings fairly regularly. It provides us both with a sort of reset. Her observational sharpness improves after spanking me.
ReplyDeleteOver the years, I get in trouble less and less. There is no question that domestic discipline works in our house.
BTW WordPress is amazingly flexible. It's just different from Blogger. Free WordPress isn't the same as the full-featured product.
Mine is getting better at spanking for subjective offenses, but I think it is harder for her than when it's a more binary--it either happened or it didn't--kind of thing.
DeleteI agree that WordPress probably is both more flexible and more powerful than Blogger. That's always the trade-off though, right? If something is very simple to use, it's probably fairly rigid and not very robust. That's Blogger. On the other hand, it's amazingly easy to use their templates and add common features in common places, while WordPress seems to always require going through a list of huge list of widgets and options, many of which are not very intuitively titled. It's also maddeningly hard sometimes to find very simple things, like changing font size or style. It can usually be done, but it's often very hard to figure out how.
I'll be happy to help you with WordPress. I've gotten pretty good at it. One hint: Go to appearance, click on Customize. You will find choices for all the options the theme you selected offers in fonts, etc. It's a fairly steep learning curve, but worth the effort. Drop me an email if you want some help.
DeleteThat is the procedure I've been following, but it sometimes seems to break down at the "options" part. What I may do is put together a list of the things I would ideally like to do and see if you know how to do them. Honestly, it's pretty simple stuff, or should be.
DeleteI'm happy to help you. One hint: The theme you pick is critical to getting easy steps to building the blog you want. I messed with quite a few before deciding on mine.
DeleteI was wondering what would happen if our wives talked to one another? Would that change them and us? I like that idea much better than sharing with people not involved in DD.
"I was wondering what would happen if our wives talked to one another? Would that change them and us?" I have no doubt it would, though so far mine hasn't expressed much interest. I was surprised at how resistant she's been to even setting up a Google account under an assumed name for purposes of logging in to my blog, because she doesn't want something like that to be traceable to her. But, things change . . .
DeleteYou may be right that the template/theme is one of the limiting factors. I think the one I picked is from 2016, which probably means it lacks features of more recently created themes. Unfortunately, WordPress doesn't make it super easy to cull the choices down, and a lot of their themes appear to be designed more for business and commercial applications than this sort of interactive blogging. Which, is hard to blame them since the commercial sites undoubtedly make them more money.
"I was wondering what would happen if our wives talked to one another? Would that change them and us?" - This would probably be a powerful thing, since they are the ones who actually make discipline happen (or not). We ask for it, and then just have to leave it in their hands. Since several have compared DD to training puppies... Our forum is kind of like if the puppies gathered together to discuss their owners discipling them. Dogs might well have thoughts about being disciplined (assuming dogs have that level of consciousness), but they are not the ones who are actually doing anything except needing discipline, getting it sometimes, and hopefully learning from it at least occasionally.
DeleteProbably our wives would benefit even more from having a forum than we do!
-ZM
I don't have any doubt that they would benefit more than we do, though I also kind of doubt they would participate, or at least do so regularly. There just seems to be something about these relationships that the "bottoms" get way more into it than the "tops." KD Pierre had a funny cartoon about it. See here (last cartoon on this page):http://mattmansfigures.homestead.com/cart90d.html
DeleteThat cartoon was great, and way too true!
DeleteI agree with you fully that even though the wives would undoubtedly benefit more from it than we do, they would be unlikely to participate. And at least a big part of the reason is because they simply don't have the same level of interest, as you said. Even for those wives that get turned on by exercising their authority, it still seems to be much less of an powerful experience than it is for the one on the receiving end. I am guessing it is because it is not so much a hard-wired part of their sexuality. I am reasonably sure that if DD was not sexual for me, I would never visit a blog about it, or at least not regularly. Rather, it would just be something I would do, but have no desire to learn more or talk about it with anyone.
-ZM
"I am guessing it is because it is not so much a hard-wired part of their sexuality." That's probably true, and the dynamic as a whole makes sense in terms of who asked for it. Most of the time it seems, it's the bottoms who seek out the DD relationship; while in the beginning at least the top is just accommodating the request. So, of course, the bottoms are more motivated -- they began that way.
DeleteOne interesting question would be WHY is it so much more prevalent for the bottoms to initiate? And, is it the same in M/f dynamics. It may just be a matter of their being more "natural" bottoms than natural tops. I've always though that in day-to-day vanilla work dynamics, there probably is about a 10:1 ratio of followers to leaders.
It does of course make sense that the bottoms are more motivated, since they do usually start by asking for it. And I believe that this same pattern repeats for M/f dynamics as well, based on what I have read and seen.
DeleteAs for why it is usually the bottoms who initiate, I can think of several possible reasons, but there are probably quite a few other reasons that might better explain this, including your astute observation that probably followers vastly outnumber leaders.
One reason that bottoms might initiate this is that they feel somewhat overwhelmed by the never-ending responsibilities of adult-hood, and subconsciously they remember what it was like before they had all this responsibility. Most likely they had enforced boundaries back then, so maybe they have a felt need for them now? The opposite would obviously not apply for most tops, since they don't have anything like this in their past, where the first 10 or 15 years of their lifetime they were in control of everything and were the ones imposing and enforcing boundaries. Also, I expect that any felt need to punish someone is largely socially conditioned out of people, just like falling into line and following rules is socially conditioned in.
After the relationship is initiated, it makes sense that the motivation remains stronger for the bottoms, not just because they were the ones to initiate it, but also because in general the experience is more emotionally powerful for the one receiving. Exercising power is kind of a rush, but losing power is much more memorable. Try to think back in your life of some of the times that you exercised power and it felt so great. While it may be possible to think of 1 or 2, I would bet that you remember almost every embarrassing thing that has happened for most of your life.
-ZM
"Also, I expect that any felt need to punish someone is largely socially conditioned out of people, just like falling into line and following rules is socially conditioned in."
DeleteI think that's probably right. Society probably does tend to condition punishment out and it glorifies egalitarianism. Yet, I'm sure someone could make a case for the opposite -- that movies, sports, etc. glorify confrontation and aggression.
"Exercising power is kind of a rush, but losing power is much more memorable." I'm sure that's true for guys wired like you and me, but I wonder whether we're typical? I wonder if Tops get a bigger rush from exercising power, and why more people aren't wired to be Tops?
I agree that tops in general and females in F/M relationships will be less interested and motivated in the esoteric of DD. And let us be clear; we regularly get into the weeds far beyond casual interest.
DeleteBut there may be another aspect to it independent of those mentioned -and that is ( in my experience) female disciplinarians rely heavily on their personal experiences, instincts, and casual knowledge about spanking and DD. Few are interested in a graduate course on the topic.
My wife has read a few books or articles I have sent her way and occasionally reads this blog and maybe others. But when I have encouraged more reading or even commenting, she has usually said something like, “ I don’t need to read ( that stuff). I know what I am doing without reading about it” ( not a great paraphrase)
I think past commentators like “Danielle” are rare in that she was not a spanko but clearly saw the advantages of becoming her husband’s disciplinarian- and she was interested in the details.
As I think about it, an ideal blog might be one operated by a duo, perhaps a male bottom and a female bottom who might bring more women into the conversation while stretching everybody’s notion of what a DD spanking relationship can be,
Alan
"I think past commentators like “Danielle” are rare in that she was not a spanko but clearly saw the advantages of becoming her husband’s disciplinarian- and she was interested in the details."
DeleteRight, and remember that it took Danielle a long time to get there. When her husband brought the concept of an FLR to her early in their marriage, she had no interest. It wasn't until several years later that she opened up to it and eventually embraced it.
We had many rules, all of which she set. I will list some but I am sure there are more. Here are a few I mentioned a couple weeks ago:
ReplyDelete"You're going to lose 20 pounds over the next three months. You're going to start exercising five times a week. You're going to stop saying the F word. You're going to ask permission before you have a third drink. You're going to call me when you have to stay at work late. You're coming to bed when I go to bed. You're going to open my car door each and every time."
In addition, I had daily, weekly, and monthly chores. In the winter, I warmed up the car for her. I was expected to have an umbrella in the rain. I gave her massages. I went shopping with her when she wanted me to. I was polite to her relatives and her girlfriends.
There were also agreements that went both ways. We consulted each other before any significant expenditure. We reported the results of medical tests. We told each other significant things from work. We introduced new friends to our spouses. Things many vanilla couples do naturally, but we had express agreements to do these things. She did not like secrets or surprises, so we were extremely open with one another.
We also had DD rules. I was not allowed to argue about punishment. I was to drop my pants immediately. I was to stay over her lap until she gave me permission to get up. I was to get implements quickly when she sent me for them. I was not to reach my hands back to try to protect my bottom. I was to answer her questions before and during punishment. And hardest of all at first, I was expected to thank her for correcting me.
That's all I can think of for now!
KOJ
"If I were to be spanked more often or much harder than I want to be spanked, then she would be putting her needs, or her vision for my behavior, ahead of my desires." Anne very recently suggested she wanted me to thank her after a hard spanking.
DeleteThanking her for a spanking seems to be the standard conclusion based on most accounts , just like referring to her as Ma'am during the spanking.
DeleteThe new blog is looking good. I'm sorry Google is forcing you into having to do this.
ReplyDeleteI have a need to be spanked that builds up over time. My wife has nothing like that. Her exasperation certainly builds up, but it doesn't flow into a need to discipline. I believe she does see that hard spanking is a productive outlet for exasperation when she gives one, but she doesn't generate desire based on that observation. If that makes sense.
What she does have is a desire to see my needs met. If it's been long enough between a spanking and we aren't actively spanking for a goal or habit, she'll check in to see if I've been wanting a spanking and not asking for it. How often this happens varies wildly, and I think it's based on whether she thinks she's been unapproachable or we've been too busy lately.
I throw in another wrinkle because I would love for her to spank me more often than I want to be spanked. If I'm spanked as often as I want to be spanked, that's amazing, but that's just her helping me out with my need. If I were to be spanked more often or much harder than I want to be spanked, then she would be putting her needs, or her vision for my behavior, ahead of my desires.
Thanks, MW. "I believe she does see that hard spanking is a productive outlet for exasperation when she gives one, but she doesn't generate desire based on that observation. If that makes sense." It definitely makes sense to me.
Delete"If I were to be spanked more often or much harder than I want to be spanked, then she would be putting her needs, or her vision for my behavior, ahead of my desires." That too makes sense. I think one of the big milestones in moving from fantasy to reality is when you start getting spanked with a frequency or intensity you don't want or when the timing or rationale fits her preferences and not yours.
From the very beginning she spanked me with a frequency and intensity I did not want and with a timing and rationale that fit her preferences. Early on, I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to handle it. I kept telling myself, if this was my mother back when she could overpower me I would have to figure out how to take it because I would have no choice. Now I have a choice -- and I chose to learn how to surrender. That changed my life for the better in so many ways. She broke down my ego without breaking my spirit. She put me in my place, and it turned out to be the place where I belonged.
DeleteKOJ
"I kept telling myself, if this was my mother back when she could overpower me I would have to figure out how to take it because I would have no choice." I think this is one recent that the analogy to maternal discipline is so powerful to some of us. It's that we were literally taken not just a little, but completely, out of our own control.
Delete"She broke down my ego without breaking my spirit." That's a very inspiring way to put it. I really, really like that.
First of all as a long time reader (lurker) and very occasional poster I want to thank you for the amount of work and content/discussion material you provide us .I hate to admit it but my morning ritual includes checking into your blog and reading updated posts . The varying opinions have been a great help in my wife and my journey into a disciplined husband relationship. The beta test on WordPress looks great sorry you have to go through this amount of work for us Thank You.
ReplyDeleteJL
Thanks, JL. I appreciate the kind words. I'm glad to be part of your morning routine.
DeleteLike JL, my morning routine often includes checking the site, as it isn much more uplifting than reading the paper. R.e. the "Do you need a spanking?" discussion,
Deleteit seems erotic because it underscores the authority she has. I always appreciate it when she asks me that. We don't really have a set of rules any more, as it seems like now she has me pretty well trained.
Norton, good to hear this blog is a part of others' morning routines.
DeleteI’m a regular night reader. My goal is be disciplined enough that I have to become an early morning reader.
DeleteMorning read for me. Thanks Dan!
DeleteMW, mornings are highly overrated.
DeleteThanks, Mark!
Hi Dan,
ReplyDeleteThe Word Press beta version does look good, and just using a platform other than Scrugoggle makes my weekend. By imposing still another barrier to using bloggers, Scrugoggle may be moving to shut down the blogs. Even they realize that any new barriers to access reduce readership, cutting out more casual or less motivated viewership. I wonder if the blogs now generate much revenue for the Scrugoggle, who now see them as expendable. Moreover, the DOJ anti-trust action looks more and more threatening to them, and they may be trying to lock in practices now they can use to negotiate with DOJ. Bottom line: Scrugoggle is bad news now for serious blogs and likely to be more so going forward..
I hope you continue experimenting with Word Press or even commissioning a dedicated web page that takes you out of all this crap one has to navigate. I have some idea of the enormous work you put into this blog to make it the outstanding resource it is. You have to decide the trade-offs, but I fear staying with Scrugoggle will steadily decline readership. It’s not my decision, but I would move to a stand-alone web presence as soon as possible,
Alan
Thanks, Alan. I don't know whether they are trying to shut down blogs, but I do think (a) they clearly haven't put any R&D dollars into Blogger in many years; (b) they missed earnings and need to find new ways to cut costs and grow revenues; and (c) anonymous visitors are hard to monetize. So, requiring sign-ins from Google's own email service may decrease visitors, but it makes those who decide they want the access more valuable. I'm always kind of skeptical about DOJ's antitrust actions in the technology sector, as they usually are a decade behind in addressing a threat, often going after a dominant player after that player is already in decline. But, I do think this action may have legs. As the panelists on my favorite finance/business podcast noted, this investigation started under Trump, so you now have two administrations with very different philosophies deciding there is some "there there" on this investigation. Also, this one isn't aimed at peripheral practices. It's aimed squarely at the core of Google's advertising sales model. I've never been an investor in Google stock, and while I've regretted that a lot over the years, I don't regret it now.
DeleteReally an addendum to initial comment: Aunt Kay accomplished what she did ( which was enormous) with a somewhat Jerry- rigged ( but stand-along ) web page. That was almost 30 years ago. Today a reasonably well designed page would give you all Google provides and much, much more, Cost of design and hosting are off course issues to consider. But this blog is ready for prime time and Blogger will never deliver anything like that.
DeleteAlan
Thanks, Alan. I don't disagree. But, my understanding is Aunt Kay and Jerry really had a group of contributors, including people who designed the website and knew what they were doing. Unfortunately, I have zero web design or HTML experience. I'm not all that worried about paying for design and hosting. What's kept me back in past is finding someone who will work on this kind of content without it become a big embarrassment for yours truly. I do agree that Blogger is probably on its last legs. Though, I'm not sure the same can't be said about blogs in general. The world seems to have migrated to things that are very short-form and mainly static visual content (Tumblr) or video content (TikTok and sort of YouTube).
DeleteI thought the WordPress beta site looks really good. I am sure it is a huge amount of work to fit in all the functionality you might want, but on the flip side, there is also almost unlimited flexibility, so for example if you want polls and things like that which are no longer supported by Blogger, you can have them!
Delete-ZM
You're right that there is much more flexibility with WordPress, but for a price. Most of the interesting features are in the premium packages only, which are about $300 a year. It's not a huge sum, but it's significant when you think about the fact that the blog features will probably stay more or less the same after you create it, but the $300 is an annual fee.
DeleteWe have a long list of rules with precised punishemnt for each. The list has grown in time because new items can be added by her or me any time. The newest one is a punishent for not doing homework with kids, added this week.
ReplyDelete1-2 times a a year we sit together and review the list. Sometimes some rules are romoved, sometimes modified, sometimes we add new ones. With adding we usually start from her idea how she would like to modify my behavior, then I propose some rile or rules and then she accepts or rephrase. She also decides what the punishemnt should be.
Rules added by me consist of 2 categies: self develoepment (i.e. no eating sweets, fitness) or supporting her in becominh my dream dominant wife. Regarding last part it's all about her receiving bonus points for extra dominant behavior which she can exchange to gifts, flowers, fancy restaurants or jewellery. There are also rules for which she can be punished. This list is very short and related to wasting food. Still few times a year she gets a spnking too.
Having rules does not limi the situation of sudden spanking for whatevef she feels is neccesary and is not on the rules. She also started to discuss some issues with me with spanking me till we agree a consensus. It really limits time or reaching agreement in our relationship :)
It's great that she seems to be directing the process.
Delete"... supporting her in becoming my dream dominant wife. Regarding last part it's all about her receiving bonus points for extra dominant behavior which she can exchange to gifts, flowers, fancy restaurants or jewelry." - This is actually a fascinating idea.
DeleteOne question that comes up from time to time in our discussions here is "what's in it for her?" Of course, smart wives want to fulfill their husband's fantasies, and obviously if a wife embraces DD, it also gives them a great way to deal with issues that they care about. But still many wives seem to fail on this is either in not being assertive enough or not being consistent enough, so they have this great tool that they can use, yet somehow it mostly goes unused.
An example for consistency is our weekly check-ins, which haven't happened for quite a while. They stopped for good reason, but then just didn't get going again, and even if they had, probably a fair number of weeks would be skipped, even though my wife is really onboard with them. Or another example for consistency (and maybe assertiveness) is we came up with a game involving snacks, where if I want a snack later in the evening, she can make me play a game where I either get my snack or a punishment. She loved the idea, and talks about it sometimes, but has only made me play the game once out of the many, many times I have wanted snacks.
Also, my wife, like many, finds it difficult to be assertive with me, even though it is in her nature. Part of that is undoubtedly caused by me, because when she does put her foot down, I tend to resist or object a bit. A few days ago, I was with her in a coffee shop and I was totally checking out the waitress's butt, not just once, but every time she walked past, and not just glancing, but staring. Afterwards, my wife twice brought it up and kind of laughed about it.
Maybe part of the problem is that the rewards that DD offers wives are more long-term. If so, there might be advantages to providing immediate incentives as well. Maybe a rewards system could help with this?
I don't have a solid idea around this yet, but in general, I am thinking that maybe I could find a way to make a game or contest out of things. Kind of like Caged said above: "She also enjoys the game of catching me breaking a rule. Spanking me isn't fun for her, but catching me is." What if my wife and I could come up with a game or contest or something around it, so that if a certain number of check-ins happen on schedule, she gets a reward of some sort? Or maybe something where if she makes me play the snack game when I want a late-night snack, if it results in punishment for me, she automatically gets something like a massage? Or something similar for being more stern and assertive, but I don't have ideas for that yet.
-ZM
"Or another example for consistency (and maybe assertiveness) is we came up with a game involving snacks, where if I want a snack later in the evening, she can make me play a game where I either get my snack or a punishment."
DeleteThat's kind of fascinating. I could see that bringing my mindless snacking to a screeching halt.
Yeah. The game for snacks was pretty simple. If I wanted a snack, she would make me roll 2 dice. If it came out even, then I got the snack. Odd meant no snack, and 7 meant punishment (not a full-blown punishment spanking, but something simple, like 10 hard whacks with a paddle).
DeleteI can pretty easily come up with ideas to tie the check-ins to a reward system of some sort, since they are supposed to be weekly, so it is just a matter of if they are happening on schedule for a certain amount of time, there should be some reward for consistency.
The one that I am struggling to come up with a way to "incentivize" or "gamify" is the whole thing about being assertive so that when she sees something that merits punishment, she gets all stern and follows through with a punishment. This is so situational and intermittent that I am having a hard time coming up with ideas of how to do it. Does anyone else have any thoughts for this?
-ZM
My reaction to the "reward" for her concept was that I'm not sure it would work for us. It might help with consistency, but I think making it seem more like a game would really detract from the whole "authenticity" thing, which is a key driver for me.
DeleteExactly the problem. For consistency in scheduled check-ins it’s a no-brainer. Reward consistency. But how to incentivize her being assertive without making the whole thing a game, at least from my perspective? Though in a way that is what caged was referring to in the part I quoted him on.
Delete-ZM
Just to clarify/expand, since when I wrote the comment last night, I was typing on my phone so was trying to keep it very brief. As I am thinking about this whole concept of trying to incentivize or gamify the experience for her, I do not want to dilute the authenticity of DD in any way. I still want it to be very real discipline for real infractions, not some sort of roleplay game with made-up misbehaviors.
DeleteOne thing that really resonated with me with what YesMyMistress wrote was the idea of "supporting her in becoming my dream dominant wife." That seemed much more proactive than the approach I have taken so far, which is mostly just waiting and letting it happen (or not).
With regard to my check-ins - which are supposed to happen weekly - the idea is that she will use these to hold me accountable to some pretty challenging standards, and in doing so will greatly improve my health, as well as our relationship and quality of life in general. The check-ins work when we do them, because she uses rewards and punishments to provide incentives for me to perform well. Of course, ultimately all these things on the check-in are things that I really want too, but I often lack the self-discipline to make the immediate choices necessary to succeed in the longer term. Her responsibility is to see that the check-ins happen and to reward or punish me based on my results, and my responsibility is for the actual results themselves. So she holds me accountable with the check-ins, but who holds her accountable to make the check-ins happen regularly? Since me punishing her is a non-starter, I am thinking about ways to provide positive incentives for her being consistent. Note that any incentive for her having the check-ins has absolutely nothing to do with the contents or results of the check-in, so all they do is help close the accountability loop.
But where my ideas mostly stop is on "her receiving bonus points for extra dominant behavior." Again, if her being more assertive is something that we want to see happen, then it should be encouraged through whatever means possible. And again, as long as it is her being more assertive/dominant and being quicker to use DD to address real behavioral issues, to me the whole experience will still be just as authentic. It is only if she starts to make up misbehavior or infractions just to get incentives that it loses its authenticity. So, at least in theory I think it is entirely possible to structure things somehow for her to enjoy "the game of catching me breaking a rule," without it all being just a game to me.
What I am hoping for are some creative ideas of how to reward her being assertive?
-ZM
To the extent I've tried rewards to encourage consistency, it's been mainly things like thanking her for something she did or complimenting a particular approach, often in a journal entry. I don't know why, but the whole concept of going beyond that to "reward" the dominant behavior still gives me a negative reaction. I'm not criticizing anyone for doing it, but I still think it would seem like moving the whole thing closer to a game if Anne and I were to try it.
Delete"I don't know why, but the whole concept of going beyond that to 'reward' the dominant behavior still gives me a negative reaction." - I think I totally understand why you feel that way. I am pretty sure that at least to her, it WOULD feel closer to a game. But still it seems compelling on some level to try to find a way to help her become more assertive, especially since I think she wants to be. This harkens back to a question you asked and something you said: "Do your wives start getting “antsy” if they haven’t spanked you in a while? I used to think that Anne saw spanking as kind of a chore, and perhaps for a long time she did. I think that changed, however, a year or so ago when we simplified things and sort of streamlined all the “ritual” around a session. While she hasn’t said so expressly, I do think there are times when she does almost hope I’ll do something to earn one." - I think my wife does start feeling antsy in a way when she hasn't spanked me for a while. And I too think that there are times when she does almost hope I will do something to earn one. But the strangest thing is, then when I actually do something, it just zips right past her, without her even thinking to seize the moment. And later she says, "that would have been a perfect opportunity!" THIS is the reason that I am thinking (and likely overthinking!) about how to incentivize her, to make it somehow more present in her mind.
Delete-ZM
"But still it seems compelling on some level to try to find a way to help her become more assertive, especially since I think she wants to be."
DeleteI totally agree with this. I do think Anne wants to be more assertive, and that she has it in her. But, as you say, "But the strangest thing is, then when I actually do something, it just zips right past her, without her even thinking to seize the moment." That definitely happens with us too. In fact, it happened yesterday. I had one of those damn failures to close the garage door. She commented on it but didn't do anything. Maybe I got a Valentine's Day pass?
Having come across the DWC website, we were aware of the DD concept and started our journey when I said something particularly insensitive and felt bad about it. It let her work off her anger and me assuage my guilt feelings. We were able to move past it and leave it behind us with none of the lingering bad feelings that could have happened. Having started though, we did establish some firm rules. Primarily these were related to speeding tickets and unnecessary costs such as late fees from forgetting to pay credit cards on time. This was about twenty years ago though and the truth is that it is a very long time since either of those events has happened. So in practice any punishment these days is more about attitude or something like that, which is much more difficult to define - and also is increasingly rare. I agree with MW though, I also have a need - or at least a craving - to be spanked from time to time, so most spankings now tend to be maintenance. Real discipline still happens on occasion but I don’t even want to think about the severity that would happen if I incurred a speeding ticket or a credit card charge today. And yes, it’s also been pretty spring-like here this week. I actually had the convertible out yesterday for the first time since I can’t remember when (without getting a speeding ticket). Not going to last though, we’re due to be slammed with cold and plenty of snow Tuesday night into Wednesday. Oh well ! TG
ReplyDeleteTwenty years would be a *very* long time for me not to get a ticket.
DeleteI have went quite a while without a speeding ticket, but certainly not 20 years. I drive fast every time I get behind the wheel, without exception, because I love the thrill of speed. I of course wish there weren't police trying to catch me, but at the same time I think I also kind of enjoy that game. It is a game of risk with real consequences.
Delete-ZM
I can't say I like the game of hoping the police don't catch me. But, I definitely share your love for the thrill of speed.
DeleteI am not sure that I "like" the game per se., since I would also think it was very great if I knew there was no police presence and I could drive as fast as I want. But since there is the ever-present threat of police, I think the risk of getting caught (and the challenge of trying to outsmart the police) somehow adds to the thrill of speeding, making me even more likely to do it. But again, I do love speed in any form, so I would certainly speed with or without the police.
Delete-ZM
It's interesting, I would say that life would be perfect if I could speed with zero risk of getting caught by police. Yet, some of my best stories from my early years involve getting caught speeding or other interactions with the police.
DeleteI share your love of speed but as much as I don’t want a speeding ticket anyway, I am far more concerned about the consequences at home if I were to get one. I compromise, pull off from a stop like a bat out of hell but once I get up to speed stay pretty close to the limit. TG
DeleteI did that in high school, not realizing a police car was hidden across the street. Got ticketed for drag racing on a public street.
DeleteYeah, I did have a cop follow me off a light one time. I hadn’t seen him. I spotted him after I’d got up to the limit and held it there. Saw him in my mirror turn round and go back the way he’d come. TG
DeleteOh if Mrs GL ever initiated the conversation as laid out in the memes I would be one very happy man and heading for a regularly painful 60's. Presently my "Authority and Peacefulness" proposal is on track to be submitted at the end of the month but her pre-emping things would make life so much easier. We shall see how it all drops then? Cheers GLM.
ReplyDeleteGood luck with the proposal.
DeleteI came home to a furious Ann. She told me yesterday that I was getting spanked today for not cleaning my office on Saturday. Apparently my trying to talk about friends coming to stay wasn’t perceived well, on top of that.
ReplyDeleteI got a scolding that made me feel like two cents. Then she yanked down my briefs ( a sign she’s pissed) got me in position and went to town with that horrible rubber paddle. No set number, no cards, just spanked until I gave up control.
This was not a rule and we have yet to talk through the misunderstanding. She admitted before she spanked me that she may have read too much into what I said.
It never occurred to me to protest. She’s come so far and does so much for me.
Rubber . . . I do *not* envy you.
DeleteFor us, every check in begins with me reading what is in my spanking journal. It is much easier to read what has been on my mind, rather than coming up with things on the spot, and it lets her know what I am thinking about and what I need. The following is not part of the discussion, but something most of you would probably be interested in. There is a book that treats adult spanking seriously, written by a therapeist named Jacqueline Omerita called "The Psychology of Adult Spanking" She explores most aspects of consensual spanking, including role play, tears, subspace, pitfalls, and finding a partner. I read it years ago, and really related to spanking being used to help with PTSD. It is available on most streaming platforms, and I found it on Hoopla, which is available free at most librarys nationwide. When you look it up on Hoopla, it is the only thing that comes up about adult spanking, probably because it is a serious look at this little understood phenomenon. That separates it from all the misleading "entertainment" like 50 Shades and Secretary, both which make adult spanking seem creepy, and exactly the opposite of what most of us followers of this site know to be true. The book used to include audio links, so you could listen to an actual spankings done by the author. There seems to be no info about why the audio is no longer available, and there is no longer any way to contact her. She might have gotten in trouble by advocating for adult spanking to be used for therapy, which, hopefully will eventually be available someday.
ReplyDeleteSince I originally started much of our conversation on Spanking / DD Books (back in September 2022?), I just thought I would comment on this.
DeleteThe authoress is actually named "Jacqueline OMERTA." This is not a "book," per se, but rather a series of short (~24-30 pages) "pamphlets." Overall, they cover a wide range of spanking, but primarily centered around "spanking sexual fetishism." As such, it has a much more BDSM "vibe." There is very little information, at all, about Domestic Discipline. The only part of the series that I found somewhat interesting was "Brochure #4," wherein she discusses "therapeutic spankings" and her theories of psychological sources of "real tears."
Readers' opinions and mileage may vary.
-- Donn
and associated activities.
I've read the on-line versions, which are available on Amazon. As Norton notes, there used to be an audio version, which included at least two real spankings. I'm not sure why, but those seem to have completely disappeared.
DeleteAs Donn noted, opinions may vary, but I didn't think they had a BDSM vibe. Omerta's approach in the audio and written materials was more about presenting herself as a therapist and using spanking as therapy, while also speculating about why people become interested in it. FWIW, at one point I mentioned Omerta to Aunt Kay's husband, and he got a hoot out of her presenting herself as a "real" therapist using spanking. Apparently, she ran in similar circles to the DWC for some time.
I take it back about the audio no longer being available. Just did a Google search, and it looks like Spotify may have the audio version. I'm not a Spotify subscriber, so I didn't check to see whether that link is actually live.
DeleteIt is on Spotify, but when you try to get it, you can't pull it up. Too bad, because they sounded like a pretty realistic spankings. It was out there for years, and now it completely disappeared. My guess is she must have crossed a line, but there is absolutely no info I was able to find out about it. However, her writing is still available through your public library. She was a supporter of the idea that adult spanking is a good thing, and could be therapeutic. My guess is because she was an MFT, they may have busted her.
DeleteI wondered when I first came across those materials how her spanking "therapy" comported with her licensing credentials. Though I kind of doubt that's why the audio isn't available, since the written materials are still being sold. It's too bad, because the audio was way better than the books. At one point, I had a copy of one of the audio sessions, but I seem to have deleted it.
DeleteYou can still hear the audio on Spotify and Deezer. I'm listening to the "Cynthia" track now. It's a 25 minute scene in entirety. Audio tracks like these could be useful to help spankers learn what is effective, without them having to involve visual pornography.
DeleteWhat did you think of the Cynthia track? I recall it seeming very realistic. It wasn't nearly as severe as the spankings I get, but it lasted a lot longer.
DeleteIt seemed realistic to me, too. I've also never had a spanking go that long. From the interviews with Cynthia I learned it was a spanking optimized for deep internalization, helping the spankee enter subspace and vocalizing misbehavior while being spanked from subspace. Going by Cynthia's changed voice in the interview and the most impactful moments for her, it was very effective for a single session with a professional. If only we all could be married to psychologists...
DeleteThere were two more spankings and interviews that fascinated. One was with "Anna." This spanking was designed to make her cry. She had previously submitted to a male spanker and was unable to cry, even though he spanked her severely. Jacqueline theorized that arousal prevented tears so a skilled spanking from a woman would work. Anna was crying halfway through the spanking from the hand, and was incredibly mellow and grateful afterwards.
The third was with "Elizabeth," which was a fun one. Elizabeth was English and was there to experiment with role-play. They played a boss-employee scenario. This was the most severe of the three spankings. Elizabeth preferred hand spanking but also received a lot from a strap and a paddle. It was evident that the role-play helped her submit to and enjoy a longer and more varied spanking than she would normally want. The psychological reasoning for this one was more about how role play makes it possible to explore the fetish more deeply. Jacqueline actually cautioned against trying to give or receive real punishment while in character.
I'll be thinking about these recordings for awhile!
I should go back and listen to them. I don't have a Spotify account, but my wife does. I don't remember the session with Elizabeth. I think I vaguely remember Anna.
DeleteI listened to them on Deezer. I'd never used the service before. It was easy to start a free trial. I'm going to look like a weirdo in their analytics.
DeleteYou should see my Amazon recommendations. They clearly have me pegged as a weirdo.
DeleteHi Donn. You are correct about the spelling of her name and the fact that these are pamphletts and not really a book. I just thought the sum total of them all equaled to a book, but I should have made that clear. She says at the beginning that she is exploring adult spanking and refers to it a fetish, which she does repeatedly. I think most, if not all of us in to DD, do have a fetish around spanking. We would probably not be into DD if we were not first attracted to spanking. She is talking about spanking exclusively, which I find very different than BDSM, which to me, is a turn off. I found much of what she had to say was informative, such as many of us come from a troubled childhood, often with no boundaries. Also, she pointed out she had spanked soldiers with PTSD, and it seemed to help them. I had PTSD from Vietnam, and F/M spanking has certainly helped me deal with it and reduce my stress from it. There are a wide variety of folks reading and writing on this blog. It seems there is a spectrum of those that need lots of limit setting, rules and behavior modification. The other end of the spectrum consists mostly of those that just need to be spanked consistently, which makes us feel more loved, and may emphasize the more maternal aspects of F/M spanking. Some folks want a full on Female Led Relationship, while others, like me, couldn't stand that. But we all need and appreciate a woman confident and dominant enough to take us in hand when she decides. It seems that DD includes all of us.
ReplyDeleteAs I recall, one of her theories was that many people who need adult spankings grew up in fairly chaotic households where there weren't many rules. Which fits me to a T. She characterized her spanking sessions as "reparenting." It really is too bad that the audio clips have disappeared. There was one in which she spanked a young woman to tears, and it was very realistic.
DeleteHi again Norton:
DeleteYes, when I said the "book" had (to my mind) kind of a "BDSM 'vibe", I meant that it seemed primarily oriented to the relationship between spanking and sexual arousal / fulfillment. (Very different than the "primary end-goal" of Domestic Discipline.) To me and my way of thinking, if an activity (or discussions of same) could be classified as either DD or BDSM, if we are primarily oriented around "sexual fetishes," that would place it clearly in the realm of BDSM.
Hey Donn. Guess we have different interpetations about DD and BDSM. For me, DD is always sexual, as spanking is so thoroughly connected with sex, it is impossible for me to separate them. DD provides some justification for spanking, and has with some practical benefits for couples around modifying behavior. While BDSM is also sexual to those that practice it, it is a total turn off for me. It includes a pleathoria of all kinds of scary and very painful stuff. That said, it is probably more accepted and tolerated than F/M spanking and real DD, which is probably more threatening to our all American, macho, cultural values.
DeleteNorton:
DeleteWhat you say about the "BDSM Community" can be very true sometimes. In earlier life I sometimes participated in that "scene."
Frankly, from my observations and discussions, many of the people who practice BDSM are downright SCARED of what we do in DD relationships; consider DD too intense and way beyond anything that they would consent to. Especially the concepts of "full time" "consensual non-consent!"
E.G. They do "scenes;" we do "life."
Delete"E.G. They do "scenes;" we do "life.""
DeleteThat's kind of the way I see it. I don't want to sound too pejorative about it, but I think it creates problems in this group every once in a while in the form of participants who came from that background but have since spread some very thin veneer of discipline over their BDSM kink. They inevitably seem to end up describing those who are genuinely into the DD elements as "fantasizing," "pretending," etc. It's like the closer exposure they have to someone in a real DD relationship, the more threatened they are by it. Or, perhaps it's more resentment than perceived threat?
I do think your distinction between "scenes" and "life" is what reconciles your definition of BDSM and Norton's. I don't think it's the presence or prominence of a fetish that distinguishes the two. I suspect many, maybe even a majority, of those in both camps have a fetish. But, the DD camp has this independent goal of modifying or punishing behavior, and they want it to be as close to reality, and as close to 24x7 as practically possible. I see that disciplinary, reality-based component as missing entirely from BDSM. Maybe they are related species, but not particularly closely related ones when you look at it from the perspective of the goals, as opposed to the practices.