The ability to have a choice in what you
do is a privilege.” - Anton Yelchin
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples
Club. Our weekly gathering of men and
women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline
relationships. I hope you had a good
week.
Like last week, mine started
strong then degraded, once again based on my own inability to exercise
self-control and moderation. A couple of
years ago, I read a book about habit formation.
It made the point that some people can reduce a “bad” behavior only
incrementally. If they want to diet, for
example, they can’t just shut cut out all sugary desserts. They have to take it
down incrementally. Self-denial just doesn’t
work for them. For others, it is the opposite.
Quitting a bad habit has to be cold turkey or nothing. I suspect that in some areas, I fall into the
latter camp. I just can’t do
moderation.
We had a good discussion last
week, though it’s notable how few of the comments really focused on implements.
But, that’s OK. Good conversations
seldom follow a pre-planned course. Both Anna and Danielle commented that
spanking is hardly the only way to discipline a misbehaving husband. As Danielle observed, “Spanking is only one
item in my disciplinary tool kit for Wayne, and I sometimes combine it with one
of the following punishments: loss of privileges like watching sports or going
golfing; loss or reduction of his monthly allowance; grounding; early bedtimes;
temporary confiscation of his computer; temporary banishment from the marriage
bed. I believe that all these things are humbling for a grown man.”
Danielle and I also talked
about how some of the words we use to describe these restrictions and privileges
are themselves inherently humbling, like “grounding” and “allowance.” These are things that parents impose on
children, and that’s part of why they can be disciplinary, right? They say, “you
are acting like a little boy, so you get to be treated like one.”
We have experimented with grounding
from time-to-time, though I think I use the term more broadly than some others
do. I apply it to any order that
restricts my freedom of action, while I think others see it more narrowly as being
physically confined to staying home and not engaging in social activities. For us, “grounding” has almost always
consisted of an order not to drink alcohol, and perhaps to be home from work at
a particular time.
Honestly, it hasn’t
worked that well for one simple reason – I cheat and don’t always own up to
that. In a series of comments last week,
I laid out the three factors that I think interact to make any disciplinary
regime effective: (1) certainty of getting caught; (2) certainty of punishment;
and (3) severity of punishment. For us,
grounding has never been effective because (1) and (2) are either missing or very
inconsistent. One major downside of my
constant travel is she has no real way to ensure that I am complying with her
directions. And, even when she does know
that I haven’t fully complied, she doesn’t always punish that misbehavior
consistently. So, while I am the one
primarily at fault, she bears some responsibility, too.
But, in theory, I think
losing privileges and other non-corporal punishments could be effective as long
as there was an adequate enforcement regime in place. They check a lot of boxes: The punishment can
be tailored to fit the crime. The punishment may last longer than a spanking,
which is painful for a few minutes then done.
They may have a prophylactic component, nipping bad behavior in the bud
before it begins. And, for some men, not
being able to hang out with friends or engage in some activities may be a lot
harder punishment than a quick spanking.
How about you? Do you use removal of privileges as a
punishment? What form does that take? Has it been effective? For the men, how
does being subjected to that kind of discipline or punishment make you feel? For
the women, how does it feel to impose rules and consequences in that way? Is it
harder for you than giving a spanking?
And, is the fact that it involves subjecting him to the kind of rules
you might impose on your teenager something that heightens your own feelings of
power? Does it inject a “maternal” element into managing your husband’s
behavior, and is that good or bad?
Have a great week!
My wife has used alternative punishment after a spanking. I do get grounded and by grounded she might make me stay home all weekend and give me a lot of chores to do that will last all weekend. Sometimes she will send me to the guest room and stay there until the next morning. If I get grounded for more than a weekend I am required to come right home after work and stay in the house and not go out. If I am late coming home I better have called her to let her know I will be late or face a spanking when I get home and some added time to my grounding. The most embarrassing thing about being grounded if if a friend calls and my wife tells them I'm grounded and I have lost all my privileges so I can't talk on the phone. Being grounded means no TV, cell phone and no computer. Does being grounded or the threat of being grounded help change behavior. Yes it does because I try hard not to do something that will get me grounded.
ReplyDeleteThat would definitely be pretty embarrassing.
DeleteGlad to hear I'm not the only wife who does stuff like that! I've never actually told any of my husband's friends that he's grounded. But I know he has had to make some pretty awkward explanations because of groundings. It must also be evident to his buddies that Wayne needs my permission to do certain things that men who aren't in FLR's feel free to do without asking.
DeleteDanielle
I will sometimes say things like, "I need to check with the Boss," when asked by friends to do things. I don't think anyone thinks much of it, because it probably comes off as a quip of sorts. Though, in truth, I'm an introvert and I kind of like being able to suggest that she had other plans for us when, in reality, I often just don't want to join in whatever festivities a friend is suggesting.
DeleteHello Dan Yes, my wife is also firmly convinced that corporeal punishments for the education of a husband are usually also necessary for further penalties in order to achieve a longer efficacy. Which penalties in addition to the corporal punishment wives use, would certainly also here an interesting theme, even for what offenses made what penalties.
DeleteFrank and I don't have a whole lot to contribute to this week's discussion. We focus almost exclusively on corporal punishment. Neither one of us is into the humiliation aspect that is involved in many of the other punishments.
ReplyDeleteI have occasionally done something more, especially when it comes to Frank's drinking. He has a limit of two drinks at a party when he is driving and three drinks when he is not. Otherwise he tends to turn into a pretty obnoxious tipsy guy. On occasion when he has misbehaved, I have told him that he couldn't drink at all at the next social occasion. So I guess that is a form of grounding.
I also have on occasion imposed extra chores when he has not done a chore on time or at all. But that is pretty much it. We focus on the paddle on Friday nights and don't do much else in terms of punishment.
And yes, one of the reasons is that I don't want our relationship to get too maternal. I am his disciplinary wife, not his momma!
Elizabeth
Thanks, Elizabeth.
DeleteIn the past, I never really associated my own mother with discipline. In fact, I never really connected mothering and discipline. But, my mind seems to be going there more these days, in ways I may report on next week.
Elizabeth, I understand your point about not wanting the relationship to get "too maternal." I think that's something that alarmed and turned me off when Wayne initially asked me to spank him. I think I even said, "I want a husband, not a third child!" I think it's great that you have found a way to deal with Frank's need for discipline that doesn't trigger an unwanted maternal feeling for you. I guess the way I treat Wayne must look terrible to you. But it's what works for us.
DeleteDanielle
Not at all, Danielle. I respect what you are doing and agree with Dan that there are unlimited variations of DD.
DeleteElizabeth
Danielle here:
ReplyDeleteDan, as you said in your post, I spoke my mind on this under last week’s post. I am interested to see what other couples do. I will just add a quick word on why I decided that spanking isn’t enough.
When I agreed to try a FLR with DD, I knew spanking was something Wayne wanted. I quickly discovered that it was possible to spank him in a punitive way, in spite of his craving for spankings, but the craving would always come back. I decided, therefore, that to really drive my displeasure home, I would add to Wayne’s spankings consequences that he didn’t ask for.
I didn’t have to think a lot about other disciplinary techniques, because I had had the experience of raising two boys. (I was their main disciplinarian because Wayne has always been more liberal and permissive than I). I wasn’t a big spanker as a mom, though I did occasionally smack the boys’ bums when they were small. By the time they reached puberty, I figured spanking them was no longer appropriate, so I relied on consequences other than corporal punishment, namely the kinds of things Dan quoted in his post. So, much to Wayne’s chagrin, I informed him that he would be subject to the full disciplinary regime we used on our boys while they were growing up.
I know from reading about FLR since then that some FLR’s involve “financial domination”. I didn’t think about it as “domination” back then, but I realized that a big part of the disciplinary power I had over our boys when they were teens was derived from their dependence on their parents. Therefore, putting Wayne on an “allowance” that I could suspend or reduce as a disciplinary tool seemed like a no-brainer to me. Once our boys reached driving age, withholding the car keys was another powerful consequence, so I made that an aspect of “grounding” for Wayne. Taking away his laptop computer was also on obvious consequence if I found he was not getting enough housework done due to time spent online. Not allowing him to go out with his buddies was another.
I think that non-spanking consequences are even more humiliating for Wayne than spankings because whereas spankings can be construed as nothing more than a sexual act between two adults, the removal of privileges shows clearly that I am not treating him as an adult. The loss of bedroom privileges can heighten that effect further.
To be honest, although adult/adult spanking is generally considered a “kinky” punishment and loss of privileges are considered “non-kinky”, I’m not really sure that taking away privileges is any less kinky. All the different ways I use to discipline my husband feel kind of kinky to me, and I have come to enjoy that feeling.
As discussed with you last week, we have not really gone in for financial control or domination. If she wanted to, I would agree to it, but so far she hasn't. Taking away my computer access really isn't an option at this point in our lives, because I work from home a lot on evenings and weekends and need a computer to do that.
DeleteI agree that there is nothing more or less kinky about loss of privileges as compared to spanking. In the context of a power exchange relationship, I see them as being equally kinky. And, honestly, there is something about the non-spanking control that seems more embarrassing to me were others to know. In this day and age, spanking may be seen as kinky, but that's really *all* it is seen as. It's the disciplinary aspect, and being subject to a wife's authority, that seems most embarrassing to me. I could live with someone knowing about me getting spanked, because I think they would write it off as just a kinky sex thing. But, the FLR aspects place one's whole manhood at issue!
I agree that full spectrum FLR, as opposed to simple DD, puts a guy's "whole manhood at issue." Without going into details, I will say that I consciously play on that aspect of it in my dealings with my husband. Maybe I am a bad person, but I have come to get pleasure from that. I'm not sure why. Maybe it is because we women are socialized to nurture and support men, and part of that involves soothing the male ego when it is bruised and reassuring our men about their "manliness." Going contrary to that conditioning and acting like...well, like a "castrating bitch" can be liberating. Okay, I better stop talking before I make myself look any worse. But the thing is, by doing that I am still caring for and nurturing my husband because I am using my position of authority to manage our marriage in a way that benefits both of us.
ReplyDeleteDanielle
I totally get it. The reality is, these relationships are voluntary, and if he didn't want it he could extricate himself from it. And, I am sure that the kind of power exercise you are referencing can be very liberating. I don't have any need or desire for it myself, but that may be because I have a fair amount of control and "power" in my normal work life. And, there has to something in this for the wives, right? It can't just all be obligation without emotional reward. It's like service submission. I hate doing it, that's the trade-off. She likes it and wants it, and I gave her the power to decide. I can't really bitch too much if something she like also happens to be something I don't, since the power transfer wouldn't be real, or at least wouldn't be very substantial, if I liked it. Giving in to the things I don't like is kind of the whole point.
DeleteService submission is one of the top benefits of DD for a disciplinary wife. I will never forget what Frank said in his initial email to me asking for DD: "I should be doing more chores to help you around the house. You decide what they are, and punish me if I forget or have a bad attitude about doing them. This will make your life easier!"
DeleteA truer statement was never spoken.
And since then, the connotation of "service" has been expanded well beyond chores.
Elizabeth
Well, that may be part of the reason service submission is a problem for me. I work more hours and with much less vacation and down time, yet we always had a more or less equal sharing of chores and household duties.
DeleteThat is the beauty of the servant-leader concept that we follow as part of our faith. My husband also works hard outside the home (while I don't) and then does about half the household chores. But he does not resent it. He says to me, "I should work harder than you; I'm the man of the house."
DeleteI truly love that about him, and love that he is proud of his servant-leadership. For us that works much better than FLR would.
But even in FLR, I could see you making your wife a "gift" of the extra work you do as part of the submission you crave, rather than seeing it as an unfair division of labor. Or maybe you want her to be "unfair" and impose extra work as the dominant in your marriage. Either way, I could see it working. So why is it a problem?
Elizabeth
Elizabeth, I think you have put your finger on the reason domestic service works in a FLR: “Or maybe you want her to be "unfair" and impose extra work as the dominant in your marriage.”
DeleteWayne doesn’t like doing housework now any more than he did back in our pre-FLR days when he used to argue with me about how much I could “fairly” expect him to do. And he doesn’t do it because he’s a doormat now. He still has the same masculine pride and competitive spirit he used to have when it comes to his dealings with other people. I think that having to “obey” me when it comes to housework affects him the same way as having to submit to punishment does. Both give me erotic power over him. And “unfairness” only increases my power, just as stricter punishment does.
By the way, I really like your comments about the “servant-leader concept.” I want to say that, although I am the head of the household in most ways, in some ways I still look to Wayne as a provider and protector. He has become my stay-home househusband the last couple of years, but he has earned and contributed more money to our marriage than I have. (That makes it pretty remarkable that he has accepted my authority to put him on an “allowance.”) If there is a strange noise in the night, he is still the one who goes to investigate, in his role as my big brave protector. If I need some heavy lifting done, he’s my big strong man. Or if a flat tire needs to be changed on the side of the road when it is pouring down rain, he is my chivalric servant.
And even though he has the physical size and strength that would allow him to defy or even to dominate me, he kneels before me as though I am his Queen. I like that. It turns me on, and it works because it turns him on too.
Danielle
Ladies: your examples echo the "Lady/Knight" analogy that defines Rosa's relationship with me. She appreciates what I can do and rather than try to micromanage me, just lets me do my thing, and merely reins me in if I get too hyper in the process.
DeleteThe Lady doesn't try to tell the Knight how to slay the dragon, she just expects to be protected and to have the critter's horns made into a nice goblet she can drink from afterwards. ;-)
Elizabeth: >>>>>>"That is the beauty of the servant-leader concept that we follow as part of our faith. My husband also works hard outside the home (while I don't) and then does about half the household chores. But he does not resent it. He says to me, "I should work harder than you; I'm the man of the house."
DeleteI truly love that about him, and love that he is proud of his servant-leadership. For us that works much better than FLR would."<<<<<<<<
I know I said this once before, but it is amazing how much you sometimes remind me of someone who used to post here a while back. When I read this I felt like I had accidentally scrolled back to one of her posts. Too bad you didn't stumble across this blog sooner, because I think you two would have become fast friends. Personally I can't relate to faith-based lifestyles, but to each their own.
“Or maybe you want her to be "unfair" and impose extra work as the dominant in your marriage.” Danielle and Elizabeth, I would make a couple of important distinctions. First, there is a difference between "wanting" her to be "unfair," on the one hand, and ultimately feeling it as erotic, on the other. Second, it is possible to be turned on in general by someone exercising control, and yet disliking particular directions in which they take that authority. There are somethings she does to exercise control that are erotic and some that aren't. Doing "service"-type things falls into the latter category for me. I put it in the same category I put cardio workouts. I hate them, but ultimately do them because I know they are good for me. Service is similar; ultimately it performs a humbling function, but it does so precisely because I don't like it.
DeleteAlso, regarding unfairness, that isn't really my issue with service submission. I do think I do at least my fair share of chores on top of working more hours in a more stressful environment, but I don't think I have ever had a moment of resentment over service-submission on that score. Instead, I just don't like it. If there is any identifiable source of what I don't like, it is (a) I don't gravitate toward servility; and (b) interrupting whatever I am doing to do some task she orders. Thinking about it more, I have a similar reaction at work when someone makes an unanticipated demand on my time that requires me to break away from something I see as more important.
KD: For whatever reason, the Lady/Knight archetype just doesn't work for me. I think it was because in most of the King Arthur movies I saw as a kid, Lancelot always seemed to be played by someone who was borderline effeminate, and Guinevere was certainly not a model of female dominance. Maybe I need to rethink that archetype now that Game of Thrones sets the standard for modern knights and ladies. I also kind of like the archetype of a Samurai warrior, but they were serving emperors, who were men, so that doesn't really work.
What was her name? Maybe I will read back.
DeleteThere are many Christians who take a similar approach to marriage and even use the same terminology. "Servant-leader" is a common term for enlightened husbands who do not believe in the authoritarian approach. There are many Christian marriages where the husband cedes control of the household to the wife.
Granted there are not many Christian marriages where the wife is the spanker. Much more common the other way around.
Elizabeth
"Servant-leader" is also a common term in business theory these days, though the underlying principle is gender neutral. Theoretically, anyone who demonstrates leadership can rise to the top, and the organization is better off if it has strong leaders with a proven track record for exercising good judgment, and then those strong leaders serve the organization as a whole and look out for its interests. But, the model would break down very quickly if 50% of the employees could never be the leader even if they were more effective than some of those in the other cohort. And, yes, I feel the same way where F/m relationships are concerned. I use the term FLR because it is prevalent, but I've never quite liked it because it does seem to have a subtle female supremacy connotation. I like Wife Led Marriage better, because in my mind it connotes an arrangement in which the wife does lead, but not specifically because she is a woman. It's a subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless.
DeleteThe servant leader concept is in education too. When I was a teacher, our mantra was "Be a guide on the side, not a sage on the stage or a drone on the throne."
DeleteThis is Elizabeth. That teacher comment above was me, unsigned.
DeleteWhen I think about it, Frank has been a servant-leader when it comes to DD. He initiated it, of course, and his initial list of the behaviors for which he asked to be punished were all designed to help me directly (do more chores, pick up his socks) or improve our marriage (stop looking at porn, stop being so sarcastic).
When he initiated changes in our sex life several years later, they were designed for me as well. They would not have happened without the DD that increased his humility and frankly helped him care more about me.
Now, his combination of strength and service makes him the best man I know.
Elizabeth
The concept of husband as knight in shining armor who bows before his lady is an attractive image for me, and I can easily reconcile it with servant leader. And kd, i love this from you:
Delete"The Lady doesn't try to tell the Knight how to slay the dragon, she just expects to be protected and to have the critter's horns made into a nice goblet she can drink from afterwards."
How romantic!
Elizabeth
Danielle here:
DeleteElizabeth, I must say, I really like Frank the way you describe him. The word I would use to describe guys like him is “gentleman”. I think Frank is a real gentleman. He needed something from you: spankings. You agreed to give him what he needed, and in return he has expressed his gratitude by doing everything in his power to make your life more pleasant and pleasurable. I see my husband in the same light, even though our FLR lifestyle may appear, on the surface, to be a little more extreme. As I see it, both of our husbands have engaged us in a sort of extended erotic dance, and they are doing their best to make it as good for us as it is for them.
Dan, you seem to have conflicted feelings about FLR because you associate it with “female supremacy”, which you reject. I don’t personally think it has anything to do with female supremacy. D/s is a deeply intimate lifestyle agreement between two unique individuals who form a unique couple. It could as easily be male dominant as female dominant. In fact, my understanding is that is more often male dominant because lots of women are turned off by the F/M variety. I was turned off when Wayne first asked me to spank him.
Incidentally, I don’t like the word “servile” to describe men like my husband who don aprons as their side of the bargain when their wives agree to take up the hairbrush.
As to the men who feel that a DD relationship should begin and end with spankings, I would just like to say how that appears to at least some of us women. When Wayne first asked me to start “punishing” and “disciplining” him with spankings, it seemed pretty clear to me that he was revealing a sado-masochistic kink and asking me to service that kink. He tried to sell me on the idea that I would benefit from the arrangement because it would empower me. I didn’t see it that way. It felt to me that he was asking me to do something sexual that I was uncomfortable doing. He might just as well have said, “I want you to start giving me lots of blowjobs because I have discovered through online pornography that I am really turned on by blowjobs.” That’s exactly how it felt to me.
Now, there is nothing wrong with wives giving their husbands blowjobs if they get pleasure serving their husbands that way. And there is nothing wrong with wives fulfilling their husbands’ desire for spanking, with no real power exchange beyond the spankings. But for the “power exchange” to work for me, when I eventually accepted it to win my husband back from his obsession with femdom porn, it had to be more deeply intimate and “real” than a simple contract saying, “When I do x, you will spank me this way. When I do y, you will spank me that way. When I continue to do x or y, you will spank me harder, longer, and more frequently.” I don’t criticize couples for whom that arrangement works, but you have to admit that it is pretty unclear who is “submitting” to whom in a “power exchange” like that.
Dan: Well, if you are going to use not only Lancelot/Guinevere, but MOVIE Lancelot/Guinevere as your model, I'm not surprised at your bristling.
DeleteOddly though, I don't watch Game of Thrones and for recent fare have preferred "Knightfall" & "Last Kingdom" for my knight-fix on Netflix.
Elizabeth: Her name was Helen. Your point about CDD is why it's so unfortunate you two never overlapped. M/f dynamics are much more prevalent, but she was F/m just like you and Frank.....which is definitely more rare for that faith-based rationale.
DeleteI'm glad you liked my 'romantic' description. That's me alright......one big, gooey dollop of sugar and honey. LOL
Hi Danielle. You said, "Dan, you seem to have conflicted feelings about FLR because you associate it with “female supremacy”, which you reject. I don’t personally think it has anything to do with female supremacy." I don't actually disagree with you. It was the term FLR I was taking issue with, not the concept. These categories obviously overlap a lot, and unlike my friend KD, I don't see DD or FLR as necessarily a subset of D/s, though there can be a hell of a lot of overlap. I don't see them so much as hierarchical taxonomy as a Venn diagram with various amount of overlaps between the ovals. To me the differences hinge a lot on whether sex and eroticism is the goal or more of a nice byproduct. I see Femdom and most D/s relationships as having a very strong sexual motivation at their core. DD and FLR on the other hand may or may not. They seem to me to be more focused on managing relationships and less about kink and sexual gratification. Now, I'm denying at all that they have erotic components and consequences, but you could theoretically have a DD relationship that was non-sexual. Same with an FLR it was focused purely on decision-making authority. I agree there probably are many woman who are turned off by the F/m dynamic, but I don't whether that explains why more men are in the dominant role. I think it could be that more women are submissive, or at least more comfortable expressing submissiveness.
DeleteI do sometimes wonder whether the "spanking only" men feel that way because it is, as you say, a spanking kink that is driving it and not a real desire for discipline. Based on several discussions about that here on the blog, I suspect the answer is yes in some cases and no in others. I think some really do see one virtue of spankings as clearing the air quickly and efficiently, and they believe things like taking away privileges work against that. I also think that some--on both sides of the paddle--can accept spanking but for some reason see other aspects of the power exchange as emasculating. Or, in Elizabeth's case, as inconsistent with their views (religiously inspired or otherwise) of the appropriate male role.
Complicated stuff.
This is Elizabeth's Frank. Last night I came across this in a sports magazine: "the coaches were great examples of servant leadership. If you want to generate true followership, you do that through genuine, exemplary service to others. It's the perfect leadership lesson."
DeleteWhile I agree with my wife that I demonstrated some leadership in initiating DD, I certainly don't feel like a leader while being scolded, paddled, ordered to undress and stay in position, apologizing, promising to be good, etc. She is definitely leading me with her strong right arm!
But it is true that I have ceded her this authority and that leaders can put others in positions of power over them.
Being paddled every Friday is a good dose of humility that I need to be the best husband, father, employee, man, and yes, leader, that I can be. Humility puts me in the frame of mind of looking out for others and putting their needs first.
Some people confuse humility with humiliation, and I imagine they are originally from the same word. But they are far different. Humiliation makes me less of a man, while humility makes me more. That is why we avoid punishments that to us feel humiliating. Could someone feel humiliated by being paddled naked by his wife? Yes. But the point is that I don't. I feel humbled by it, not humiliated. I feel that I have been reminded how to act, put in the proper frame of mind to be humble Frank and not the sarcastic selfish Frank that I can sometimes fall into.
Frank
This is Danielle:
DeleteI agree with you, Dan. It is “complicated stuff.” That’s why it is possible to have such long discussions about it.
Frank, you make a good point about the difference between “humility” and “humiliation.” That got me to ask myself whether I “humiliate” my husband in my exercise of authority in our FLR. I don’t think so. Humiliation is, by definition, a stripping away of dignity and self-esteem that does permanent emotional damage. Bullying is intended to “humiliate”, and it can be emotionally traumatic. Humility, on the other hand, has purely positive connotations. It is an overcoming of overweening pride and egocentricity. I think your comment describes it well.
I see my exercise of disciplinary power over Wayne as “humbling” rather than “humiliating.” I would, however, say that some of the things I do are “embarrassing” for him, and intentionally so. The difference between “embarrassment” and “humiliation” in my book is that embarrassment is a temporary emotional state that is not serious enough to do permanent emotional damage.
Sorry if it embarrasses you to bring this up as an example, Frank, but Elizabeth has said that one of the offences for which she sometimes spanks you is masturbating without permission. I sometimes spank my husband for the same reason, and I know from his red face that for him that is the most embarrassing reason to be spanked. And I must say, when I spank him for THAT, I make it as embarrassing for him as I can with my scolding. I figure he should be embarrassed.
But I think there needs to be good communication in a DD or D/s relationship to make sure that embarrassment doesn’t cross the line into humiliation. It is tricky because, as you said, some men would feel humiliated by bare bottomed paddlings from their wives, whereas for you it is merely “humbling”. Would it, however, be fair to say you find it “embarrassing” sometimes?
If I’m not mistaken, Frank, in a post to a previous topic, you said that you couldn’t imagine being paddled in front of witnesses, such as your sister-in-law, for example. That was you, wasn’t it? That’s interesting because it implies that a punishment that is merely humbling for you when your wife administers it in the privacy of your bedroom would be downright humiliating for you if she did it in front of witnesses. Is that a fair characterization of your feelings? But for some other men, the same experience would merely be embarrassing, and they might even be turned on by the embarrassment.
As Dan said, “complicated stuff.” And interesting.
I find the distinction between humility and humiliation very apt and wonder if many don't use the latter word when they mean the former to describe those feelings. Actually embarrassing is probably a better word to describe what I think is necessary to make a disciplinary spanking effective. For me receiving a bare bum spanking is inherently embarrassing (especially if she assertively takes down my pants before spanking me). Getting it OTK is even more embarrassing and add some nose to wall bottom out corner time and the embarrassment goes off the scale. Obviously other men experience embarrassment from different sources but some embarrassment seems necessary to bring the male ego under control and prepare him for what is happening. We should be embarrassed that our wives need to correct our behavior and that alone is humbling for me.
DeleteAlan
I've never like the word "humiliation" in this context, though some seem fine with it. I prefer "humbling." I tend to be very strong-willed, and humbling is necessary. That can include something embarrassing (like making me apologize live to an asshole I don't like), or having to do some task because she tells me to. The first is inherently embarrassing; the second is not. But, both involve "putting me in my place." Spanking is not really inherently embarrassing to me, though that could be because we have been doing it for well over a decade. We have only done OTC once or twice, but it does feel slightly more humbling. Something else that is humbling is the one time I can think of when I had done something that didn't necessarily break a rule but that I thought I needed to be paddled for and asked her to do so, she made me sit on the ottoman at the end of the bed with my back to her, until she was ready. Just sitting there, with nothing to do but wait for my spanking, was humbling.
DeleteDanielle,
DeleteI totally agree with your definitions and analysis of humbling, embarrassment, and humiliation. I do find punishment sometimes embarrassing as well as humbling, but not to the extent of humiliation. And that is where Elizabeth and I draw the line. I agree that the distinctions are largely in the mind of the beholder. Yes, for me being spanked naked in front of witnesses would be humiliating and unacceptable to me and NOT any kind of turn-on. While receiving exactly the same treatment just with my wife I find humbling, embarrassing, and a big turn-on. Fortunately Elizabeth understands my boundaries and agrees with them.
To me, humiliation is not a learning experience. It is damaging and builds resentment. Whereas humbling, with or without embarrassment, is extremely educational. For instance, Dan's wife has recently added corner time, and he seems to find it humbling, embarrassing -- and effective. I get that completely. If I have just been paddled for forgetting a chore, Elizabeth might make me do it immediately-- without clothes on. She might also make comments about how cute I look vacuuming naked. I feel embarrassed but also extremely aroused. And I am at that point extremely driven to please her sexually, which is how DD led to some changes in the bedroom that she has mentioned.
In regards to masturbation, when DD began and I stopped looking at spanking porn, my masturbation decreased quite a bit. It had been affecting our sex life for sure. But it still was kind of a habit, even without the porn stimulus. So I asked Elizabeth if I could report it to her and be punished for it. She readily agreed. I have several years now where all sexual release (including masturbation) has occurred in my wife's presence. I am proud of that; she should be the focus of my sexual desire. And she is! Especially with an implement in hand!
I appreciate the comments that have helped clarify humbling, embarrassment, and humiliation.
Frank
And yes, having to report masturbation and being paddled for it is extremely embarrassing and a big deterrent. Elizabeth virtually never combines sex with punishment, but the last time I reported masturbating she was very angry and disappointed and she made me do it in front of her and then paddled me. She said that was a case where the punishment needed to fit the crime. I thought I would die from embarrassment and then I thought I would die from the pain, which definitely is greater immediately after release. I have not masturbated without her knowledge since and don't believe I ever will. I do not ever want to repeat that punishment experience.
DeleteFrank
Frank, thanks for answering my questions. It sounds like you and Elizabeth have an effective disciplinary system. That's great that you have been able to completely cut out your porn and masturbation habit with your wife's help. She must feel proud of you.
DeleteOn the different ways people experience things as embarrassing or humiliating, that's why communication is so important in a DD or D/s relationship.
Danielle
My wife has never used alternative punishments on me, the idea being that the corporal punishments should suffice and not need to be backed up by anything else. If the infraction is more serious, she spanks harder and/or longer.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Anonymous.
DeleteMost of my spankings are just the spanking then corner time but if I fail to get my chores done then my wife might assign me extra chores after I finish the one I didn't get done.
DeleteThanks, Dan. The punishment fits the crime.
DeleteMany of my punishments find me doing cornertime to start. After about 15 minutes after being sent to the corner, my wife will pull my pants down exposing my childish white underpants. She will then scold me and me and then reprimand me. It is crazy that a 50 year old man can get such pleasure and anxiety from the anticipation of feeling like a naughty 12 year old boy. After a long wait, I am spanked in my briefs and finally bare-bottomed until I regress to that child from years ago.
DeleteOur relationship seems to be in agreement with Frank and Elizabeth and the anonymous poster above. We do not use non-spanking punishments...no line writing, lost privileges, corner time, extra chores or grounding. Spanking has always been and most likely be the form of punishment she dishes out. Repeat offenses (meaning the punishment was not effective) result in increased spanking with other implements or simply more strokes. Mr. Anonymous above states 'she spanks harder and/or longer'. I might add more often. If my bottom simply cannot accept any more or harder strokes, she will pause for a short time and then continue the spanking. Onc afternoon, I was spanked three times for a serious offense. Believe me that was a more effective punishment than not being able to watch TV for example.
ReplyDeleteI do agree that multiple spankings can be very effective, but I don't think for me they are necessarily more effective than something else that is more in the mode of "the punishment fitting the crime."
DeleteI think actions without consequences leads to wider rebellion .... and the consequences need to fit the actions that have been taken. This only works properly if both parties remain focused in the goal that we are looking to achieve. And whilst a 'damn good hiding' gives momentary discomfort, it does not always affect the root cause of an issue, it only deals with the 'current, or immediate' and therefore will undoubtedly have a temporary or limited affect.
ReplyDeleteOver a year ago I set up a twitter account, to allow me to 'play' in the spanking world, but over time that account began to dominate most everything I have done, different boundaries where set, and ignored by me, physical punishments given, and in truth ignored ... until I visited and was expecting a roasting and punishment ... but instead got a roasting, and suggestion I deactivate my account for 28 days ...
I was mortified, but did as suggested, committed to the restriction, and have learnt from it ... I still have a significant physical punishment to come, which has also been foremost in my mind.
So, for me I love this aspect of punishment, if I want to grow .... and I do, to be a better 'me' than it has to be about all aspects, accepting the wider range of control / restriction and accompanying physical punishment.
Love your blog and the work / conversations you have in it, very helpful
J :-)
Funny how these electronic worlds can kind of dominate your time, isn't it?
DeleteFor me, enforcement seems to work best when, as you say, there is a wider range of control exercised.
Agreed that it is more effective! There are always ways round things like no-TV punishments, whereas with a spanking, my wife knows exactly what is going on.
DeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteHere is a possible future topic: How has your sex life changed since you began DD? Note that I ask "since," not "because of." So in the time period since. There may be many other factors besides DD, and those should be addressed. But it would be difficult to say that DD is not a factor in any changes that have occurred.
I would think that most couples have seen a change, even if DD has been throughout their relationship. As a teaser, I asked Frank for a one-sentence answer (on which he will elaborate if the question is chosen) and as I expected he said: "I have far fewer orgasms but a much better sex life."
Elizabeth
Of the people who comment here, my wife and I seem to be rare exceptions, in that it started as soon as we were married, rather than being married for a few decades and then getting into such a relationship. We saved sex until marriage, but also spanking, this being a level of intimacy (even if for disciplinary purposes) that we weren't going to have before marriage. Because they started simultaneously, we have no way of comparing.
DeleteFor me DD started when we got married. How it came about was with my first marriage my wife wasn't into anything so after the divorce I started dating and I really wanted to be in a DD and female led relationship. When I started dating my current wife after several weeks I decided I had to bring up the subject. I went on the internet and printed off everything I could find on DD and female led relationships from sites like Aunt Kay and others. I invited my girlfriend over for dinner and after dinner I told her what I was looking for and presented her with all the information I printed and told her to take it home and read it and tell me what she thought. It was about 3 days later before I heard from her. She showed up at my door and said she would be interested in this type of relationship because her first husband was an alcoholic, abuser and cheater and she doesn't ever want to go through that again. Our DD relationship started the day we got married.
DeleteI second Elizabeth's suggestion for having how couples' sex lives have changed since they began DD (or FLR). A sub-topic within that discussion could be one that Elizabeth raised in a response to last week's topic: how and to what extent husbands' access to pornography/erotica and their masturbation habits are managed by disciplinary wives. Inspired by Elizabeth, I asked Wayne to give a one sentence answer to the question about how sex has changed for him. His answer was: "Sex is more pervasive, more intense, and more spiritual in a FLR."
DeleteDanielle
We're strictly into corporal punishment. Once in a great while, she may require me to write lines, but that's usually a scenario that we've discussed. Sometimes I'm required to wear a chastity cage for a few days, but that is also pretty rare. The main thing is that we're just too busy and have too much going on outside to venture further, and the spankings for us are mostly for sexual foreplay, stress relief and some discipline for rather minor offenses. Glad that other folks are having fun with additional measures, which I enjoy reading about. Ciao! Graham
ReplyDeleteWriting lines is another of those punishments I don't quite understand, but also have never been subjected to.
DeleteDan, I am sparing in the use of writing lines because it seems like a waste of time. If I want to punish Wayne with a boring, repetitive task, it is more useful to impose a chore that achieves something, like polishing the silver. However, on occasion it can be a useful humbling device before a spanking because of its association with grade school.
DeleteThe most memorable time I used it involved masturbation. I got home from lunch with my girlfriends one day and found Wayne working furiously on chores I expected him to have already finished. He looked evasive and guilty when I asked what had taken him so long. I interrogated him and quickly ascertained that he had wasted time being a very naughty boy while I was out. I was angry not because occasional masturbation bothers me much but because he had wasted time he should have spent on chores, and that inconvenienced me.
That evening after supper, I made him neatly print the following lines to fill a page: “I must not play with my penis when I have work to do.” I think that was a really shaming task for him. I was really pleased with myself at the shaming wording of “play with my penis” for “masturbate”. LOL
After he finished, he had to bring the page to me for inspection, together with my heaviest hairbrush. I don’t usually spank Wayne over my knee, but it seemed to add appropriately to the shaming age regression on that occasion. After the spanking, I put the page up on the fridge with a fridge magnet and left it there for several days so it would continue to shame him. Nobody saw that page, and I had no intention to let anyone see it, but I enjoyed making him nervous by not telling him how long I intended to leave it there. I have kept the page, and I occasionally put it back up on the fridge before I go out as a reminder to him to be “a good boy.” ;-)
Danielle
Nice. You make a good point that if the goal is to impose something repetitive and boring, surely there are tasks around the home that fill that need but actually accomplish something.
DeleteDanielle, the idea of attaching the self-written note to the refrigerator door, is an excellent educational measure to remind him of his bad offense. Even spanking him over your knee makes him aware he behaved like a little boy, so consequently he's being punished by you like that! strictpunishedhubby
DeleteI guess it's time to weigh in. Rosa has used other things like the witholding of privileges as an add-on punishment, but rarely. It's like anything else......effective in moderation and probably counter-productive if overdone. There is also an advantage and disadvantage to this practice: the advantage is that an add-on can be very effective in solidifying a punishment, but the downside is that it also then drags out a punishment and defeats the immediate advantage of "you fucked up, you got punished, but now it's over......back to life as usual".
ReplyDeleteBut as with most things, everything has it's place.....even the spice that is rarely used, but essential for particular recipes on certain occasions.
That is the tension -- the "but now it's over" can be a double-edged sword. It means the air gets cleared faster, but it also means the severity of the original punishment has to be enough that the lesson lasts awhile even if the punishment itself does not.
DeleteK.D., maybe you have put your finger on a difference between DD and FLR. In a more or less vanilla relationship that includes some spanking used purely as DD, getting the punishment over with quickly so as to "get back to life as usual" may be a good thing. But in a FLR involving a 24/7 power exchange, why would one want to get it over with quickly?
DeleteDanielle
Danielle: Good point, but I would even go so far as to say that even in a FLR there can still be mutually agreed upon boundaries while still preserving the "FL" aspect to a significant degree.
DeleteRosa and I are also a sort of combo couple. We are kinky in nature and have a degree of FLR where she is the boss in several (but not all) arenas. In addition to being generally "Femdom/kinky", we also use DD as a serious (to various degrees depending on the situations) tool for behavior issues. So I get the sexual-to-just sexy-to-fairly-asexual vibes that comprise a sort of BDSM/DD spectrum.
For me, the more serious the issue, the more inclined I am to pay my penance and get back to forgiven, clean-slate ground. However, if the issue is real, but not terribly serious (not refilling her glass promptly enough at a get-together) and more of a power-play as you described, then 'yes' I am more inclined to let it stretch out deliciously over time....as long as the consequences and vibe clearly come off as her just flexing some muscle for Dommy fun.
Another thing is 'time in'. And I think I'd prefer to see that as a topic one week more than sexual enhancement. By this I mean: "How has the length of time you've been doing this affected your view and what you do?"
I am not one of the cases so often described where a 40-50ish husband comes to his wife and suggests adding spanking into their marriage. I've been doing some form of this since I was 19 (I'm now approaching 60) and with different people and different situations. Even Rosa and I have been at this for 10 years. How I would write about all of this has changed over those decades and also with different situations. Sometimes I read another person's account and think, 'yeah, I used to think that too'.
We are all puppets of our biology and experience.
Danielle here again:
DeleteKD, you say, “I am not one of the cases so often described where a 40-50ish husband comes to his wife and suggests adding spanking into their marriage.”
Well, Wayne and I definitely are one of those stereotypical cases, with the difference that Wayne first made the suggestion at a younger age and I rejected it.
The length and variety of your experience with DD and D/s is impressive, KD. I feel as though Wayne and I are FLR novices compared to you, though we ARE veterans in the art of compromising so as to make marriage “till death do us part.” (Well, that is my expectation. I hope to still be smacking Wayne’s bum in the seniors home when we are 90. LOL).
I agree that “time in” would be an interesting topic.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteAnna here. Until you or any man seeking to submit in any form, they must agree to live by the rules that the two of you have set out. It isn't up to the man to decide if any punishment is affective or to their liking. It is their place to just do it.
If a man is serious then he doesn't omit any wrong doings. A wife who disciplines should not need to be a detective, searching your omissions. In the same way an punishment aside from spanking is her choice. You
don't have to like it or find it affective. YOU MERELY HAVE TO DO IT!
If what you want is an occasional spanking for whatever reason then go to a profession who will do it just as
you want it.I found when Peter was truly prepared to submit it worked. As I told him if you dont like how I do it then go to a professional, or as I said in my case, then go get a divorce.
Anna
Anna, you and I have probably had this conversation a half-dozen times before, and it's an issue on which we will just have to agree or disagree. If a husband "likes" a punishment, that is obviously a problem. But, if she insists on doing something that he knows isn't effective in his case, then who exactly is being punished? Him? Doesn't sound like it. Her? If she's wasting her effort thinking something is effective and it isn't -- that sounds like a punishment to me, but of the giver and not the receiver. Ultimately, any relationship has to serve the needs of BOTH partners, or it is going to fail.
DeleteThis is Danielle:
DeleteAnna and Dan, I agree to some extent with both of you. I agree with Anna that a man who has asked his wife to “discipline” him shouldn’t get to decide that spanking is the only form of punishment he will accept. He may not LIKE other kinds of punishment, but since when is a person supposed to like their punishment. His not liking it may be a good reason for doing it.
But I also agree with Dan that “any relationship needs to serve the needs of both partners, or it is going to fail.” To be really honest, I think the majority of relationships in which one partner has sado-masochistic kinks and the other partner is purely vanilla are likely to fail because they will be unable to find enough common ground to make it work.
Dan, you may well be right that some guys who want their wives to spank them are not sexually motivated. You say you were not sexually motivated yourself, so I will take you at your word. But when my own husband initially asked for disciplinary spanking, I felt he was asking me to do something sexual. I turned out to be right, as I saw when he later showed me his vast collection of F/m spanking images. (Here’s a hint guys: if you have ever masturbated to images of women spanking men, you have a kink).
To guys who get your wives to spank you: I think you need to consider that your wife is doing you a favor that many women would deny. I don’t mean all women. I am sure some wives like spanking their husbands for various reasons. They may get erotic pleasure from it. They may like being able to take out frustrations on their husbands’ backsides to clear the air. They may do it because, paradoxically, they are the submissive ones in the relationship, and they believe it is their duty to do whatever makes their husbands’ happy. In those cases, a “spanking only” discipline agreement may work.
But you guys need to keep in mind that your wives are not just spanking machines who should be expected to perform according to your expectations. We have needs and desires and ideas of our own. Suppose when I decided to use a wider range of disciplinary tools than just spanking, my husband said, “No, that will never be effective on me, so you should just stick to spanking.” I would see that as a refusal to accept the authority he pretended to give me in an effort to turn me into his compliant spanking machine, and I would be angry.
I want to add that I’m not talking about taking away privileges as AN alternative to spanking. The loss of privileges is almost always IN ADDITION to spanking. I almost always include spankings in my husband’s punishments for the same reason they were never a part of punishments for my adolescent sons: because baring a man’s bum for punishment, which also involves the exposure of his male dangly bits to the disciplinarian’s eyes, is a highly sexual act in my opinion. I do that to my husband because such a potently symbolic act of sexual domination prepares him psychologically to accept whatever other disciplinary measures I choose to impose on him. I see it as my husband’s duty to accept my disciplinary decisions, and to do everything in his power to prove to me that my efforts to discipline him are worth my while.
If my husband is serious about FLR, I don’t think he has a right to second guess my decisions as disciplinarian. Why might I ground him after spanking him? Maybe it satisfies my sense of justice because it seems to me to fit the crime. Or maybe I just want to because it makes my pussy wet to show my authority that way. As I said, we women may develop desires, and maybe some kinks, of our own once we take up the hairbrush. And you men have a duty to think about us as much as we think about you.
Danielle, I agree with almost all of this. The two areas where I disagree a bit or am coming at it from a slightly different perspective are:
Delete(1) Sado-masochistic kinks: I'm not sure that is what is motivating many men who seek out DD. It undoubtedly is for some, but I don't think it would be even a bare majority, at least if you are using the classic definition of S&M as "giving or receiving of pleasure from acts involving the receipt or infliction of pain or humiliation." Whatever drives my need for DD, it isn't masochism. I have a pretty high tolerance for pain, but I never find receiving it to be pleasurable.
(2) Sexual motivation: Just to be clear, I don't claim that there is not a sexual/erotic component to my desire for DD. Rather, it wasn't a sexual desire to be spanked that caused me to get interested in DD, nor is sex itself the goal. As I've said, I recognize that I seem to be a little bit of an anomaly in that I didn't have a spanking fetish that existed before I discovered DD. Most of the disciplined husbands here seem to have been interested in spanking from a very early age, then that spanking interest led them to DD. For me, it was almost the opposite. I didn't think about erotic spanking at all until well into my 30s, and it wasn't a big deal to me once I did discover it. But, once I learned about DD, it hit me like a ton of bricks. And, that initial obsession definitely included a strong sexual reaction. But, I think the fact that DD caused that reaction while erotic spanking did not indicates that for me the spanking component was a means and not an end. For me, the driver is really the need for imposed boundaries and enforced accountability. To the extent my orientation has moved more toward an FLR over time, it is really more like the situation in your second-to-last sentence: "As I said, we women may develop desires, and maybe some kinks, of our own once we take up the hairbrush." For me, the desire for discipline/accountability appears to be primary, spanking secondary, and getting off on authority in and of itself came later.
(3) The issue raised by your 5th paragraph is crux of the disagreement between Anna and me, but I am raising it from the opposite angle. I agree that if the relationship is really about discipline, and spanking isn't working, then the man needs to be prepared whatever it takes to bring about the change he said he wanted. Anna's point seemed to be the opposite -- that the wife just decides everything around spanking vs. non-spanking, severity, consistency, etc., and he doesn't get to question it even if what she is doing is completely ineffective. My issue isn't with, "No, that will never be effective on me, so you should just stick to spanking.” It is with, "I don't care that we've tried something and you say it isn't having any affect on you, and your behavior has stayed the same, but I don't want to do anything else. So, shut up and take whatever I feel like doing. Take it or leave it."
I think the notion of 'you asked for this, so now you have to do it my way or forget it' has a delicious fantasy edge to it, but depending on the circumstances is not how relationships work. If a woman told her husband, "I'm going crazy with work, please plan a vacation for us" and the husband then planned a hunting/fishing vacation at a remote lodge, I don't think things will end well when she says that's not what she'd enjoy and his reply is, "you told me to plan it, so I did, and this is what I want to do."
DeleteMaybe I'm lucky in that Rosa enjoys this and needs it as much as I do, so there's no feeling that she's making a huge concession as a 'favor' to me? We are both in this to have some edgy fun while dealing with some real issues in a constructive way. If something along the way doesn't sit right with either of us, it's time to hash it out, not take rigid stands. And to Dan's point, I don't even think efficacy comes into the picture. Even if an 'add-on' is 'effective' in that it is truly a deterrent, but it also breeds ever-increasing resentment.....can you still call such an add-on 'effective'? It would be like having a treatment that regrows hair but ultimately kills the user. I don't think anyone wants to end up in a coffin just so that mourners can say, 'wow, but look at that head of hair!' LOL
Dan and KD, I agree with both of you that the wife in a DD relationship or a FLR needs to be flexible. I would never give Wayne an ultimatum like, "either you do things my way or we're finished." I am too invested in my marriage to take such a stand. In fact, the whole point of my agreeing to try FLR was to save my marriage.
DeleteI think there are two things that shouldn't be overlooked in this discussion of "spanking only" versus "spanking plus add-ons". First, I don't see spankings and other measures purely as "punishments." In other words, when I subject Wayne to "discipline", I am not merely trying to "deter" him from repeating a particular behavior; rather, I am bringing about compliance to my wishes through a sort of erotic enthrallment that results from my authoritarian manner. Second, I feel what I am doing is "fun" in a sexy way, and I want it to be fun and sexy for my husband too, even though my behavioral demands are serious and real. That may sound contradictory, but that's how I see it.
Danielle
KD: LOVE the hunting lodge vacation analogy!
DeleteDanielle: I totally get the contradictory-yet-true nature of fun/sexy yet serious and real. I wouldn't say I've ever seen the pure DD aspects as "fun" but, heavily erotic? Definitely. When I fist found the Disciplinary Wives Club, I think I was hard for three straight days. I distinctly remember walking around a mall trying to find a hairbrush, hard as a rock the whole time. Yet, for those whole three days I had butterflies in my stomach (and not in a good way), couldn't sleep, and was chronically on edge at the prospect of receiving a spanking that might actually reduce me to tears. I was truly terrified of the humbling that would entail. I now realize that tears don't happen easily, and for some of us not at all, but at the time I didn't get that. But, the larger point is, while there was something powerfully sexual about the prospect of DD, the reality of it was still flat-out terrifying. But, for me both the fear and the attraction have always been more about the loss of control and having someone's will imposed on me than the spanking itself. This is one area in which my friend KD and I differ. Maintaining final control through consent is very important to him, while I find the thought of control being taken away from me terrifying but also very compelling.
Danielle here:
DeleteDan, I just want to respond to your point about sado-masochistic kinks and sexual motivations behind men’s requests for DD. You could be right that I overestimate the role that sado-masochistic sexuality plays in DD. I have only my own limited experience with my husband to go by.
But you got to me thinking how something a man feels to be non-sexual may feel very sexual to us women. Think about it. My husband asks me to discipline him. He assures me it’s not a sexual thing, but he wants me to bare him from the waist down and strike his buttocks with a paddle or a strap. I trust you can see how that would feel to me like a request to engage in a sex act? If I did that as a favor for a male friend, not my husband, most people would accuse me of marital infidelity. If I did it for money, I would be classed as a “sex worker.” See my point?
That’s how I felt about it when my husband first asked for spankings, and I rejected it because not only did it seem like a sex act to me, it seemed like a kinky sex act, and that freaked me out back then. As it turns out, I was right about my husband. When I agreed to try FLR years later, he revealed that being spanked was his earliest and most powerful masturbation fantasy, though he had always been too embarrassed to reveal it to me or any of the women he knew before me.
Anyway, you may be right that some men really do separate DD from “kinky sex”, but I think they have to understand why their wives or girlfriends might have trouble feeling the same way…or believing them.
When I finally agreed to try FLR, my attitude was, “Okay, I’m going to get kinky to try to save my marriage.” I’ve said that as I got into the role of disciplinarian to my husband, I developed a taste for it and developed some kinks of my own. Thinking further about it, I wonder if that is accurate. Do we “develop” sexual kinks, or do we “discover” them?
Maybe my fear of my husband’s perceived kinkiness was, in fact, fear of my own potential for kinkiness. Maybe a similar thing has happened to you from the other side. When you discovered DD spanking, you became fascinated with it and you felt a need for it purely as discipline. But once your wife started doing it, you began to feel the eroticism of it, and you began to crave a deeper level of submission, moving from simple DD towards FLR. Maybe you developed that kink, or maybe you discovered what was always there. I’m not saying it is so, but it’s possible, isn’t it?
On the question of consent, I agree with KD that it is essential. It turns me on to have power over my husband, and to show my power, but I don’t want to do anything that would seriously hurt or humiliate him. I’ve already said that I have strong desire to ‘out’ the disciplinary nature of our relationship. I know it would be embarrassing for Wayne, but that’s part of the turn-on for me. And I know that he’s turned on by the fantasy of that embarrassment too. But I haven’t done it because he hasn’t explicitly consented to doing it for real. Yet.
Part 1:Danielle, to be clear, I do think that for *most* men who get into DD, there is a sexual motivation in play to one extent or another. But, I don't think masochism is the root of it. Some of them are into the submissive aspects. Others are spanking fetishists and have been since an early age. And, some like me, have some kind of extraordinary need for boundaries and accountability. But, very few have said that it is the pain itself that gets them off. I do think your Wayne is plainly in the majority here in having a very early and strong erotic interest in spanking.
DeleteI think mine would not have participated in DD at the outset had she seen it as some kind of foreplay. She was (rightly) upset at my behavior at that point in time, and would not have agreed to do it if she thought it would actually function as a reward for bad behavior. I think reading the stories on the DWC website and understanding that these were *real* spankings convinced her that even if there was an erotic element involved, no one in their right mind would leave such a spanking feeling that the underlying bad act had been rewarded.
Despite running this blog and spending a hell of a lot of time thinking about these things--and I like to think of myself as pretty self-aware--it still is very hard for me to trace my own motivational arch with anything that feels true. To some extent, that is because when I discovered the concept of DD, it hit me so freaking hard. I have no explanation at all for how something I had no pre-existing desire could hit me like that out of the blue. It just did. If I had to try to chain it all together, I suspect (and it is merely a suspicion) it goes something like this:
(1) I grew up with way too few boundaries, and yet had parents with very strong and domineering personalities. The result was, I modeled those personalities early on but had no offsetting boundaries. I did pretty much what I wanted, which seemed cool at the time but left me a chronic stress case.
(2) I went on being a chronic stress case through college and the first part of my marriage.
(3) I discovered adult spanking through the HBO series Real Sex. I found it stimulating and kinky, but nothing obsessive. But, I did like it enough to look for more spanking related content, which led me to the DWC.
(4) The DWC hit me like a ton of bricks, but it was more the accountability and boundaries, not just the spanking itself. And, in many ways it was the non-consensual aspect of many of the stories that really hit me hard. It was the wife *imposing* the DD and doing it so strongly that it resulted in tears. The lack of a choice in the matter was definitely a big part of the obsession, even if it couldn't be the way things worked in real life.
(5) We drifted along that way for years. But, the blog exposed me to people who were more FLR in orientation. Including a female blogger, whose relationship definitely had control elements that mine did not. Reading about her relationship and engaging in email conversations with her, and other discussions here on this blog, planted an FLR-related seed.
(6) In researching more about FLRs,I found the book The Hesitant Mistress and a few others, which I passed along to my wife. With that book, something clicked for her. So, through two different routes, we both started developing an FLR interest.
Part 2: Like you, I think my wife grew into or developed her sexual kink. For her, I don't think it is the spanking itself that she gets off on, though the "payback" element does have some appeal. She has told me that she enjoys making me strip for the spanking, making me stand there while she lectures, telling me to take the position and then watching me do it, and recently, putting me in the corner between sessions. When you look at the pattern, it is clear that what gets her off is no sado-masochism, but more a D/s dynamic in which it is empowering to her to tell me what to do and watch me comply.
DeleteAt a practical level, these relationships have to involve consent. And, there were comments left long ago by at least one guy who was involuntary outed by his wife as part of a nasty divorce. But, I also have to admit that part of me wants it to be as non-consensual as practicality and history allow.
Danielle here again:
DeleteDan, I find your views on all this really interesting. I think maybe I tend to use the term “sado-masochism” too loosely. For instance, you distinguish between “masochism” and a desire for D/s. I always think of my husband as a masochist because I figure only a masochist would want to be under his wife’s thumb the way Wayne is. I mean, I know he HATES housework because we used to have such fights over who should do what. And now I can make him do it all, and I can be a real bitch about inspecting his work in a really picky way if I’m in the mood, and I can find some excuse to spank him for it if I want. In my book, that’s a masochist.
But he isn’t a masochist in the sense that he likes pain. He’s not even that resistant to pain, though he used to try to put up a stoical front. I don’t think I would enjoy spanking him as much as I do if he was masochistic in the sense that he actually enjoyed the pain. I would feel like I was wasting my time if he just absorbed it like a cushion. But even though he doesn’t like the pain of a spanking while I’m giving it, he still needs spanking to be part of our relationship. I’m just not sure how to understand that other than as a form of masochism.
He reminds me of you in some ways. From what I’ve read of your blog, I don’t think he’s quite as much of a workplace alpha male. But he’s cerebral like you and really tenacious in an argument. For me, it’s impossible to beat Wayne in an argument. He seems to have read and thought about everything, and he always has a rebuttal for any point I make. That’s okay. But it used to frustrate me in our pre-FLR days. That’s part of the reason it’s so great to have the power to humble him by paddling his bum or taking away privileges. LOL
I bet your wife feels the same way when she orders you to strip for a paddling. Sorry, but I like picturing it. ;-)
You said: “I also have to admit that part of me wants it to be as non-consensual as practicality and history allow.” Yes! It’s not as exciting if the consent is too easy. I know this is bad, but when Wayne is doing the housework, I get the most enjoyment when he’s doing the things he hates the most, like cleaning the bathroom. But he likes it too. I know because sometimes I order him to do housework naked, so I can see his arousal. I'm not bad if he gets turned on by it, right?
I'm never a stickler for technical definitions -- as my friend KD knows and bemoans ;-) -- but I do generally think of masochism as getting on physical pain. I think of D/s as more about getting off on exercising or being subjected to control and power. They obviously overlap, but on some level, I think this week's topic is especially germane for real masochists, because I think for DD to work on a real masochist it would almost have to involve non-spanking punishments, because will *like* the pain of a spanking.
DeleteI too need the spanking as part of the DD relationship, but really as a means and not an end. For me, it's all about accountability and penance and feeling like I have been reined in in a very concrete way. Spanking seems to fit the bill like nothing else. But, in terms of changing behavior, I also need the non-spanking control. The lecturing and scolding and being given orders.
Yes, I think that my wife does feel EXACTLY like that when ordering me to strip. And, the visual is probably better in your mind than in reality. ;-) And, I think she feels exactly like you do where consent is concerned. She likes that I hate taking orders and gets off on the fact that while I comply, it is a very grudging compliance. Now, where I differ from Wayne *a lot* is you would not see any arousal from me in doing housework!
Dan; You outdid yourself on being way more technically precise than usual on this one! ;-)
DeleteI'm no longer sure whether I should call Wayne a masochist or not. He seems to be most turned on by D/s, which I have always considered an aspect of masochism. When it comes to pain and humiliation, he seems to be turned on by the fantasy of it, but he is more sensitive to the real thing than I would expect a masochist to be. Is there a word for someone who is turned on by fantasies of painful punishments but doesn't get off on real pain?
DeleteIncidentally, Dan, I don't think it's the housework itself that arouses Wayne. ;-)
Danielle
"Is there a word for someone who is turned on by fantasies of painful punishments but doesn't get off on real pain?" Yeah, a Disciplined Hubby! We all love the thought of DD, right up until it actually happens!
DeleteLOL Dan.
DeleteI think this discussion has led me to an insight: My husband's erotic fantasies about disciplinary spankings motivate him to give me disciplinary power; the gap between his fantasies about spanking and the real thing give me to power to truly discipline him.
Danielle
This is really a profound insight into the motivations and dynamics of disciplinary spanking.That fantasy does give the disciplinarian enormous power to administer real punishment and to manage behavior.After that first real spanking a husband knows the difference between fantasy and real discipline and yet we continue to accept the pain a real spanking brings knowing the fantasy and its rewards will be long gone before its over.This is where I believe the desire to be disciplined go beyond sexual feelings to a need for boundaries, accountability and penance for real or perceived misconduct
DeleteAlan
Dan, it just makes for different, extended session. What is implicit but I failed to mention is that no one, at least not me, can write perfectly. Errors in writing are subject to further discipline. For example, the last time we did it (over a year ago) I had to write "I will not masturbate without permission." It made for a very long evening that was immense fun nearly to the point of exhaustion. I realize that many people here don't spank for fun, foreplay or stress relief, but those account for the overwhelming majority of our corporal activities. Graham
ReplyDeleteMy wife employs only corporal punishment for discipline and of course corner time and scolding. She also has used what Aunt Kay called “reinforcements” to spanking that are designed to underscore her authority as well as make spanking more effective. My former girlfriend too only used corporal punishment as well as I remember. Making me wear panties post spanking or using her strap - on illustrate reinforcements she has used. They are infrequent today. If she decided to use alternative punishments I could deal with that and being candid there are times I would rather lose privileges or be grounded than submit to a spanking. At home my mom actually used things like grounding and chores for a year or so but returned to spanking because the alternatives didn’t work with me as they had with both my older sisters. My wife knows this history and that probably has influenced her but the long and short of it is that spanking has always been the gold standard for us in controlling my behavior. There really hasn’t been a need to seek out alternatives to it
ReplyDeleteAlan
Alan, if I can ask, just out of curiosity, until what age where you spanked by your mother?
DeleteBottom line from this debate, we all march to a different drummer. I entered DD for the sole purpose of correcting bad behavior that was upsetting my wife and I wanted to correct that behavior. I suggested my wife might want to use spanking as the tool to correct those behaviors. I gave her two web sites to look at, The Spencer Spanking Plan, and the D W C to look at. She liked the idea for two reasons. First it gave her the power to chastise me for bad behavior when it happened, and it would give her "pay back" rights for my bad behavior that hurt or angered her. In my case, bare bottom paddlings' are not fun and I do not enjoy pain. I knew that when I decided to give my wife that power. Most importantly, it has worked, and I have corrected 90% of the behavior both I and my wife agreed upon and wanted corrected. Neither my wife nor I have any interest in a FLR. I consult with my wife on decision making, but I make the final decision and lead the family. In our case effective spankings work, make their point, and the issue is closed. I would never agree to add on punishments that waste time and cause humiliation. At this point in our lives, my wife and I are both happy, and it is unusual to be spanked more than once or twice in a 12 month period. But is has been an effective safety valve in our marriage.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely true -- whatever works.
DeleteSorry I have been a stranger lately. Between an extra mouth to feed and an elderly relative in hospice life took over my commenting time.
ReplyDeleteWe use more than spanking. With four kids in the house sometimes spanking is not an option. Things my wife uses are: no phone except for work, time outs, not being allowed to use seats, no alcohol, diet restriction (no meat, no bread, etc...she never has done no vegetables though), extra chores or I do chores that are normally hers, cold showers, waking up early, and occasionally a writing assignment about my behavior.
Since I travel alot we have a strict self reporting policy...no exceptions. We agreed that if we are serious about this, one of the most serious offenses is not honoring the process. She is not always there to catch me, I either do it or get worse for not doing it.
Sorry to year about your relative in hospice.
DeletePersonally, I see the wisdom in not restricting vegetables. For me, doing so would definitely be more reward than punishment.
The education of husbands is probably handled differently in every marriage, and the views are very different. There are also many marriages in which the husband dominates, I know I do not say anything new here. However, as I read here, many wives only use corporal punishment to educate their husband. My wife also applies this punishment to me many times, but she also believes that other punishments, such as Exit ban, room arrest, TV ban, pocket money cut computer prohibition not only increase the punishment, but also have an educational effect longer. That is why she applies these additional penalties to me so often. She says, who behaves like a little boy, must be treated and educated like a little boy! strictpunishedhubby
ReplyDeleteI like "education" as a euphemism for what my wife does with her paddle!
DeleteWow, 85 comments and going! There is so much good discussion in the thread above that I won't even try to get in on it because I couldn't even START to hit all the major points, but I will say that Danielle seems to have similar views to me on much of this so "welcome Danielle!"
ReplyDeleteMuch of the discussion made me think back to the big long thing I wrote a few years back on the whole interplay between fantasy and reality. For me, at least, DD is very much both, and while I need enforced boundaries and accountability, the reason DD works so well for me is because it so very powerfully plays to my fantasies.
As for this weeks topic, about privileges, I have mixed feelings. If my wife ever decided to go this route, I would probably be turned on by the whole thing, even though I would simultaneously be annoyed, and overall it would probably be effective at least if done in addition to a physical punishment.
At the same time, for us one of the biggest benefits of DD is the immediate closure it brings, and these long term punishments seem to defeat that somewhat. I think at least for us what is much more effective is heaping additional punishments on top of spanking, but all of which are administered at the same time. For example, it could be mouthsoaping, strapping of hands, pegging, enemas, figging, nettles, or any number of extremely humiliating (embarrassing or humbling for those who prefer those terms) and uncomfortable activities. In this way, we still get the rapid closure that we prefer, but the embarrassing memories linger in my mind and the pain lingers in my bottom long enough for some real change to happen. Also, as I mentioned earlier, much of the reason DD is so powerful for ME is because it plays to my fantasies, so generally very physical punishments and extreme humiliations generally resonate a lot more with me than other more mundane punishments like extra chores or grounding.
For those of you who only do spanking, and just ramp up the intensity, I am glad that works for you, but I think for me some sort of hard spanking with a "punishment amplifier" generally is more effective for me.
-ZM
Danielle here:
ReplyDeleteThanks, ZM. Nice to make your acquaintance.
The great discussion I’ve had with various people has helped me to clarify my thinking about why I choose to do things the way I do in the FLR with my husband. First of all, I agree with all the people who have said in various ways that we all march to a different drum, so I believe my way is “right” for me and my husband but not for all.
Some people have argued that spanking is the only disciplinary tool needed, and that if the behavioral results of spanking are not satisfactory, a wife can simply increase the harshness and the frequency. I can see how that would work for some couples. But I choose not to push physical discipline to an extreme because I believe I could humiliate my husband more deeply than I would want to through spanking. He has no idea how much more I could make it hurt than I already have if I wanted to. I may be wrong, but my sense is that I could “break him”, i.e. reduce him to a crying, sobbing mess. But I would not want to do that because I believe it would be deeply humiliating for him to be “broken” that way. Not only that, but it would degrade him in my eyes in a way that wouldn’t be sexy for me the way a moderate spanking is. To me it would feel like doing something intentionally degrading to him, like urinating on him. (N.B. I know that “golden showers” are a form of humiliation play that some couples enjoy. That’s fine, but for my own sake as well as Wayne’s I would never choose to degrade him that way as punishment either).
I do, however, enjoy exercising power over my husband in ways that embarrass him without degrading him. A nice hard spanking that stops short of breaking him turns me on and gives him a clear message. But it turns me on to have him under my thumb in other ways too, so why would I deny myself the pleasure of having a large variety of disciplinary tools in my kit. Grounding or taking away his “allowance” are wonderful ways to humble a grown man and show my power. They are embarrassing; maybe even a little “emasculating”. But they don’t seem degrading to me, so they don’t turn me off the way breaking him down with harsh physical punishment would. I realize that not all women necessarily feel that way. For example, Elizabeth has said that she prefers to avoid punishments like loss of privileges because there is too much of a mother/child dynamic in that. I understand her point, but I feel differently about it.
I sense that I probably wouldn’t be the right wife for some of the “spanking only” guys here. But that’s fine. Wayne is the only man I need to deal with.
Danielle here again, then I’ll shut up.
DeleteI just want to clarify what I said yesterday. I want to make sure everyone understands that when I said I feel that extremely harsh physical punishment would degrade my husband in my eyes, I don’t mean to say that it is degrading in itself. I’m stating MY feelings about it, not an objective fact. Nor am I saying that it’s degrading for a man to cry. I don’t mind tears and sniffles or expressions of discomfort. In fact, I have encouraged Wayne to vocalize the impact a good paddling has on him rather than making a show of “taking it like a man.” I realize that for other couples, “taking” a really harsh punishment “like a man” may be a point of masculine honor for the husband, and I can see how some wives might be turned on by their husbands’ demonstration of “manliness” under the paddle, so there would be motivation to spank him to his breaking point and beyond. It’s just that I would not want to do that to my own husband.
I also realize that my disciplinary methods might not satisfy the psychological need of some men for “immediate closure” (as explained by ZM and others) or a feeling that they have adequately done “penance” (as explained well by Dan). I think that kind of guilt may be more likely when a husband has more freedom to do things that make him feel guilty.
I have noted that some of you guys also feel that fear of harsh physical punishment is the best method to help you rein in behaviors that you don’t like in yourselves. Some people here have given drinking too much as an example of that, and I agree that excessive drinking is a behaviour that needs to be reined in strictly if it is not to damage a marriage. I can see how a man who is subject to DD but not to FLR may need to be reined in by means of harsh punishments because he has more freedom to get in trouble than a man in a FLR does.
In our pre-FLR days, Wayne occasionally drank too much, and that bothered me. Today, he almost never overindulges because I give him little freedom to do so. For one thing, drinking is an expensive habit, so having Wayne on an allowance that necessitates frugality limits his alcohol consumption, and reducing his allowance further provides very effective discipline. At home I am also able to directly monitor and control how much he drinks, and on the very rare occasion that he drinks a little too much when he is out with his buddies, I find grounding to be a very appropriate additional punishment on top of a spanking.
Danielle, please don't "shut up". I like the clarity of what you contribute.
ReplyDelete