Saturday, January 20, 2018

The Forum - Vol. 236 - Disobedience and Repeat Offenses



Disobedience is essentially a prideful power struggle against someone in authority over us. It can be a parent, a priesthood leader, a teacher, or ultimately God. A proud person hates the fact that someone is above him. He thinks this lowers his position. Ezra Taft Benson

Hello all.  Welcome back to The Forum.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship. I hope you all had a good week.

2018 is off to a, what is the right word -- self-contradictory -- start.  As I wrote the last couple of weeks, I have been in this mindset in which I want to let my bad boy run free a bit more than usual.  Yet, in some ways my behavior has actually been better than usual.  At the end of the year and spilling into 2018, we had one of those very indulgent vacations comprised mainly of lounging around, eating too much and drinking too much.  But, I had decided to that once we got back to reality, I was going to try to really reset things where physical health was concerned.  So, I went on a fairly strict diet regimen.  Sort of "paleo lite."  I eliminated pretty much all bread and grain products other than a very little rice on a couple of vacations, all processed foods, and anything with added sugar.  Basically, I ate meat, fish and vegetables.  And, the really biggie -- no alcohol.  I set a goal of not having a single alcoholic beverage for two weeks.  Miraculously, I made it.  And, I lost a hell of a lot of weight, proportionally, in that two-week period.  Enough so that I was planning to maintain it for another week and maybe two.

You know what's coming, right?  Yep, right after I made the inner goal of continuing on that healthy trajectory, I fell off the wagon resoundingly and dramatically.  A work dinner turned into too much wine, followed by someone in the crew wanting to have just one more . . . culminating in rolling in at 2:00 am.  That led to a thoroughly unproductive Friday.  But, in all honesty, that hardly distinguishes it from most of the rest of the week, since I am just really struggling with committing to being productive at work right now.

Two things made the drinking incident doubly disappointing.  First, she had given me a really hard spanking just the night before.  It had been sort of a general "catch up" for bad behavior and for disobeying an order from her at a holiday party back in December.  Second, this latest incident also involved disobedience, because as dinner was starting she sent me a text telling me I was to have no more than two drinks.  The funny thing is, I don't recall making any conscious decision to disobey her. Instead, I had one glass of wine.  Then, the waiter refilled that one and I drank that. Then, I promptly forgot all about her command.  The result is I am in for at least one spanking this weekend, on top of a bottom that is still sore from the last one.

So, how are repeat offenses and disobedience handled in your household?  Although I am dreading the spanking I have coming, intellectually and as an advocate for Domestic Discipline and FLR lifestyles, I feel like disobedience needs to be in a separate category of offenses and should be treated especially seriously, because it potentially undermines the entire premise of the relationship.  It's not just another kind of bad behavior but, rather, violates the whole agreed-upon chain of command.  Thus, it should be dealt with especially severely.  Is that the case in your household?  Does disobedience carry with it some extra-special consequences?  Additional spankings? Harder spankings?  Punishment entirely different from a spanking?  Tell us all about it.

I hope you all have a great week.

50 comments:

  1. Dan, I basically agree with you about that. If the fundamentals are not strong, the building cannot stand. (sounds like something Chancey Gardner might have said.

    But the thoughts that are prominent in my mind today are of a different ilk. And since I don't know how to start a new thread I will make my comments here and apologize for going off topic from your post.

    Today's headline about Trump paying an Escort to spank him with a magazine (obviously as foreplay)got me pondering..."what if". What if growing up he had received proper discipline and been raised with decent values? What if he had a genuine, no-nonsense DWC wife to make him a better human being? Man would the world be better off.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I understand the sentiment behind your post, though it may illustrate that some people just are not trainable. Recall that Trump's parents sent him to military school, which one would thing would instill some discipline. And, most of these DD relationships begin with the male asking for them because he wants to be held accountable and improve his behavior, yet I've never seen the slightest indication that Trump thinks he needs to improve on anything. He is a classic Narcissist and all id all the time. I suspect such people can, at best, polish up their act a little bit but fundamentally are not trainable.

      Delete
    2. Hmmmm. Thanks for taking the time to engage my thoughts. I see your point and I more or less agree. Especially how you put it. "I suspect such people can, at best, polish up their act a little bit but fundamentally are not trainable." hashtag #too bad

      Delete
  2. Well. As we speak , I'm in the same situation as you. While we were away my temper got out of control in the bumper to bumper traffic. Dev was great at keeping things controlled but everyone has a breaking point. She finally said I was heading towards a spanking. I immediatly said " I don't care ". I regretted it the instant it was said. All she said was " we'll see how you feel about that later ". There's no doubt I deserve what's coming. Prob like you the wait is killing me. When these situations occur , the lecture is longer and spanking seems much longer and harder. She showed me the long handled bath brush she plans on using. Good luck on your end.

    ReplyDelete
  3. It tends to be drinking that gets me additional spanked bottoms and I too never plan for it to happen. I can comsume as much as I like but I have to keep the right side of 3 lines: not to be home later than I said I would be, to remember to eat whilst out and not to spend money more than planned. If 2/3 of those get broken I am in for it, if just 1 I can try and excuse myself out (50/50 success rate). What I hate is the 4/5 day wait to be dealt with. Cheers Good Life Mickey.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Dan
    If the day after a discipline session , followed by a text before dinner began tells me that you intend to ignore what you have agreed to with your wife. Last year when I was confronted with the same situation with Peter I told him spankings didnt seem to work. Instead I chose to not allow him to drive to work for ten days.
    The commute by car to his office is 30 minutes at the most congested time. The public transportation is at best 2 hours. Trust me he learned his lesson.
    To me ignoring her text and choosing to be the little rebel is worse than slapping her face. Trust me, there is no amount of spanking your bottom that will erase the hurt.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Anna. I don't wholly disagree with you, but here are a couple of caveats. It's not that I "intended" to ignore an agreement or her text. First, when it came in, I didn't have any problem with doing it. In fact, my mindset at the time was I was annoyed at getting roped into a work dinner that I hadn't originally been planning to go to, precisely because I was feeling pretty good about not drinking at all for two weeks. The ongoing problem is a text comes in, then everyone starts socializing and waiters keep pouring, and I honestly just don't think about it again. There wasn't a conscious decision involved one way or another. Second, she actually doesn't react to the disobedience issue in the same way you do. If anything, I seem more disappointed in myself than she is. I don't disagree with you that some punishment other than a spanking probably is called for.

      Delete
  5. This seemingly simple topic contains multiple issues. The main one is what sort of repeated misbehavior is actually repeated misbehavior versus the continuation of a less-than-desirable trait? For example, leaving the toilet seat up can be a bad habit that with repeated punishment as negative reinforcement might change over time as the culprit is increasingly forced to remember the consequences for this simple action based in forgetfulness. But compare that to overindulging in food or drink. Those could well be more like ingrained compulsions or tendencies rather than some neutral bad habit. Repeated punishment will probably help manage anger and guilt in both parties, but what are the real chances the tendency will one day be forever cured?

    You also bring up disobedience.....but what IS disobedience? Is it willful contradiction? ("I'm going to do this JUST BECAUSE you told me not to?") Or is there more to each instance? What if the submissive party agrees to the authority of the Top in theory, or on the surface, but deep down does not agree with a particular restriction? What if a restriction is seen as not good guidance, but an arbitrary whim? What if the restriction seems sensible....but is just too difficult to adhere to consistently?

    The fact is that we are all adults and whatever one may say about DD relationships and their 'understandings', 'rules', or contracts......etc. etc. there is no real way to control or change a behavior that is either inherent or is not considered important by the person guilty of it. All one needs to do is look at the success/failure ratio in the U.S. penal system. If simply having rules and consequences for breaking them was enough to change behavior, our prisons would be empty.

    I don't think Rosa and I have many illusions about what DD can or cannot fix. Instead I think we use it more as an emotional management tool to deal with the hurt or frustration of the wronged party and the guilt of the miscreant. In that regard DD can be very effective. So in my case, where impatience is probably my biggest flaw, Rosa can deal with it knowing that even after ten more years of getting spanked for behavior that is the result of impatience, she'll probably STILL be punishing me for impatience-related offences in 2028.

    And despite the belief that a harsh enough punishment will do the trick, I think that any punishment's success is rooted in the commitment to change more so than fear of consequence. And if the punishment was truly horrible? What happens when resentment sets in? Anna's example could just as easily result is a huge fight as it could in sending a message. After all you can win all the battles in a relationship and still lose the relationship itself.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi KD. Lots of good stuff in there. I agree that DD works better on some issues than other, if "working" is defined as ending the bad behavior. An example of one area where it clearly works is when I mouth off to her or show disrespect. Before DD, it might have led to a fight. After DD, all she really has to do is return the verbal fire or tell me not so subtly to watch myself, and 90% of the time I will back down at the mere threat of a spanking session.

      Your distinction between disobedience was willful contradiction versus some other dynamic also plays true for me. And, the same behavior can result from two different forms of disobedience. Over Christmas, we were at a party and she instructed me not to drink any more. I complied for about 30 minutes, then refilled by wine glass. That incident was, in fact, willful disobedience. The incident earlier this week really wasn't. I got her instruction, didn't have any thought of not complying, had two drinks, then literally forgot all about the order. I honestly don't know what the fix is for that. More severe spanking? Multiple spankings? Or, as Anna suggests, some more draconian non-spanking punishment. While I get what you are saying that more punishment could actually impact the relationship, the paradoxical thing about over-consumption is to a big extent she punishes me for it because I ask her to. I'm not sure she actually does feel it is a major issue, because I'm the one who pays the physical and productivity price for it. It's one of those areas in which she probably sees it as potentially important in the abstract, but since it doesn't have a very big direct impact on her, I probably feel more frustrated than she does about the limited impact DD has on it.

      Delete
    2. Possibly consider adding a desirable reward into the mix?

      Delete
    3. In your particular case with this specific issue, from everything I've read from you in my time here, I can definitely see the sincerity in the mutual desires of both you and your wife to change this behavior. You seem to know it isn't good and you are more than willing to pay the price when you fail. But this seems to be a behavior very deeply rooted in you and I wonder if it might be more productive to get AT that 'root' than just keep yanking the weed each time it sprouts? Or trying new weed killers?

      It seems like you associate the freedom to indulge (or in these cases, over-indulge) with a non-verbal declaration of your ability to make your own decisions in front of the colleagues to whom you wish to continue to appear very alpha. It doesn't seem like this happens as often in situations that are more social from what I've read.

      If you had the same issue privately at home, socially with non-work friends, AND when associated with business, I would think it might be more of a flat-out compulsion. But since it seems it only occurs in a business setting, or most often in that setting, perhaps you should examine what it is about that situation that makes over-indulging seem more appropriate than being obedient and moderate? That could be the key to the solution rather than thinking that figuring out the right punishment will do it. (Remember, they used to hang pickpockets, and at the hangings pickpockets would rob the distracted onlookers. Consequences are not ALL they are cracked up to be.....but they satisfy the human inclination for simple solutions to complex problems.) I remember many years ago when I had a much more cynical and cavalier attitude towards DD, I would tell subs who were constantly being punished for the same offences and then giddily raving about how effective having a DD lifestyle was, that perhaps instead of spanking, the next time they committed the particular misbehavior their Top should nip off a finger with some pruning shears. My thought was the behavior would be more apt to change once holding a cup (or playing a piano) became more and more difficult. ;-) LOL

      Delete
    4. Tomy -- It's a good thought, but I don't tend to be that "reward" oriented.

      KD - Regarding your second paragraph, it's actually kind of the opposite. It's almost a subtle peer-pressure thing, where everyone else is consuming so I can't imagine myself not doing so, combined with a bad case of state-dependent memory and decision making. It's really the opposite of exercising my freedom to make my own decisions and more going along with the herd. Also, as with Anna, you attribute a more or less conscious decision to assert my independence or blow off an order, when it's really far less thought out than that. I just have two drinks, and forget all about the pledge not to have three. Now, you are right that is not a compulsion. The same thing does happen with non-work friends, but not in non-social settings. In other words, if I'm at a party or function with either co-workers or friends, over-consumption becomes a possible problem but because of the desire to socialize and to do so like others are. Where it's not an issue at all is at home. I rarely drink at all at home. I don't have a cocktail or beer when I get home from work, or drink wine with meals at home, or watch sports and drink beer on the weekends. It is almost 100% a social issue, which is kind of ironic in and of itself because I am an extreme introvert at heart.

      By the way, I love your pick-pocket example. I'm not sure whether it illustrates that consequences have limits, or that we humans have a limited ability to really accept that we ourselves will be subjected to them.

      Delete
    5. So there you have it, my friend......this is a SOCIAL issue. Now you just need to isolate what the root cause is and deal with that. You mentioned the "well, everyone else is doing it" mindset as a potential front-runner for your overindulgence. Perhaps that is the thing you both could focus on? Exactly WHY is it important to you that you 'can do what everyone else is doing' when deep down both you and your wife know the best thing for you is to NOT act like everyone else? It seems to me that you are looking to appear a certain way to those around you, regardless of what circle they fall into. So the question is: why is it so important to you to appear that way? Heavy stuff admittedly, but the examination of which I think might be more fruitful than wondering if switching from a paddle to a crop will magically solve this conundrum. (was that unnecessarily snarky? Nah, probably not. One can never be TOO snarky.)

      I like your response to the pickpocket example. Very astute postulation. (sorry I don't have the answer to which it is. In the case of hanging perhaps the latter and in the case of spanking.....the former?) Ok, now I'm off to sharpen my horns. ;-)

      Delete
    6. NO, I don't think it has anything to do with needing to appear a certain way. I think it is a lot simpler than that. People in groups drink because it is fun and stimulates the conversation, and I like having conversations. As de Sade said, "Conversations, like certain parts of the anatomy, work best when lubricated." I really think it is that simple. People have fun getting together over cocktails, it is an enjoyable way to interact, and when in that space, I don't want it to end. So, I don't think about ending it, not because there are not consequences but because at that moment I do not think about them. It is very much like your pickpocket example. The activity is concrete and present, while the consequences are both uncertain and in the future.

      Delete
    7. Hmmmm. I see what you are getting at.....but then that leads to other questions. Oh well, I didn't mean to turn this into a "let's psychoanalyze Dan"-fest (well, maybe a little) but no sense dragging it out. I'm sure you and your honey will get it all figured out. ;-)

      All this postulating has made me thirsty. Time for a nice Negroni. ;-)

      Delete
  6. "Disobedience" inevitably calls for (at minimum) a spanking - but repeat offenses ( of which I am 'sometimes' guilty!) earn me - at the very least! - the strap or, in most cases, the riding crop!...
    L.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks, L. All mine, for repeat offenses or not, involve at least a strap.

      Delete
    2. What matters - at least for me - is that if L. is guilty of a "repeat offense", he should get a harsher punishment (whether with the strap, the rattan cane or the riding crop) to the point where his derrière is in such a raw shape that he will remember it for a week!
      J.

      Delete
    3. I do think that is at least somewhat effective in diminishing the likelihood of a repeat offense.

      Delete
    4. It usually does, but while I try not to repeat those offenses (for obvious reasons), my other misdemeanors inevitably earn me - at the very least - one or two encounters with J's hairbrush or with the kitchen spoon in the course of the week (if only over the weekend when I am expected to perform my 'domestic' chores...
      L.

      Delete
  7. We don't have a FLR. I'm not going to spend a lot of time telling all the details of my situation; it will come out as time goes on. He's agreed to certain Rules, he's agreed he'll be spanked for violating any of them. He's agreed that I alone determine how much, how long and how hard he gets spanked. He can beg and plead, and, I have to admit I like hearing him do it, but ultimately it's up to me.

    Disobedience per se isn't on the list of Rules. The closest he can get to "disobedience" is breaking any of the Rules.

    We've decided on a time every week where I review his conduct and his infractions then administer discipline. Of course, I base how much, how long and how hard the spanking will be on how many Rules he's broken and how many times. We just started this, so I've only spanked him twice. Both weeks, he broke several Rules several times. I've imagined that even if he commits only one or two infractions during the week, early on, I am going do discipline him severely. As time goes on, I might let him go with a scolding for only one or two infractions with a reminder that if his conduct doesn't improve, he'll pay the price the next week for both weeks.

    -Letitia

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Letitia. Sounds like a good work in progress.

      Delete
  8. I would guess we are all guilty of repeat offences as this is normal ,and wives are glad to meet out the consequences , but open and outright defiance is not acceptable and risks jeopardizing not only the FLR aspect of the relationship but also respect from your wife.
    I take her orders/warnings seriously and would never disobey, not because I'm afraid of the consequences (well perhaps a tad) but out of respect for her.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. (FYI, Glen, this is in response not only to you but to all of the others who commented similarly.....it was just easier attaching it to your latest comment, so don't think I'm attacking you per se. ;-) )

      But still, doesn't that assume that the directive being given is somehow in sync with the sub's own feelings? I mean, suppose a dominant (second) wife was to say, "I don't like your kids. I don't want you talking to them anymore." It seems like this could be a good test case for outright defiance.

      Everything has to be negotiated and mutually accepted for any of this to work. It's fun and cute to joke around saying things like "I had better obey my Honey or else I'm going to really be in trouble." But doesn't that really only apply to things the guy sort of wants to do anyway?

      I just think in real life depending on the issue, this is more complicated than just "obey or be punished" or even "disobedience equates to disrespect". In certain cases, doesn't disobedience have far more complicated motivations than just whether or not one respects the person ostensibly in charge?

      Delete
    2. Hi KD
      For us there are agreed rules and any orders are restricted to those.I agree with you that all other business is out of that scope and is best negotiated and discussed.
      It would be ridiculous to agree to obey all her commands without question ...and completely wrong for her to issue such a demand.

      Delete
    3. To both Glen and KD -- The issue of whether everything not expressly agreed to is excluded is one we've touched on here before. For me personally, my respect for her has gone up more on those occasions when she has enforced something that I do NOT necessarily agree with. For me, boundaries that she sets and enforces satisfy my urge to give up control. Something that is really just her enforcing what I really want anyway may help with things like good habit formation, but it's really not what got me into DD in the first place. In fact, when I've looked back at things I read on the DWC website that really hit me like sledgehammer and made me feel the compelling need, it was often stories where the DD relationship was *imposed* by the wife on a husband who did *not* want to be spanked. I know that is not how it works in the vast majority of cases, but that is the scenario that gets me emotionally.

      That said, KD you are obviously right that I wouldn't do everything she says just because she says so, or at least not if those demands were unreasonable. Like your, "Don't talk to your kids any more example." Or, anything that seemed to really cross a line in terms of who and how I see myself as a person.

      Delete
    4. I think there's a difference between Rules agreed with and agreed to. My boyfriend is a "poor little rich boy" whom I met last year when he came for college. He didn't like living in the dorms, but his school required him to freshman year. His parents decided to buy him a house to live in until he graduates, but the one he wanted didn't become available until Christmas. He wanted me to come and live with him, which I wanted, too, but, some of his habits were going to have to change if I were going to live with him. Now we all know how boys are, especially poor little rich college boys. He'll tell me anything, but he'll still need "reminding". It's not malicious, it's just boys (and at 19, he IS a boy, still) are careless. Since he's rich, he's used to having someone pick up after him, which I'm not going to do.

      He doesn't necessarily agree WITH My Rules that he can't leave clothes lying around everywhere, he can't leave dishes in the sink overnight, he has to put the seat on the commode down and a few others, but, if he wants me to live with him, he has to agree TO them. Since he's going to be careless, he needs to have his behavior modified to take more care.

      This isn't a FLR, so I'm not about to tell him what to do or make all of the decisions. My purpose in applying Domestic Discipline is dealing with things I won't tolerate.

      --Letitia

      Delete
    5. I really like that distinction. It is consistent with my answer to people who insist that if the wife gives her husband an ultimatum that he must agree to certain rules and take spankings if he breaks them, then his compliance is not consensual or that there is something wrong with her ultimatum. No, if you don't like the conditions your partner places on continuing the relationship, you can always leave. You don't have some "right" to be in a relationship with someone else, and all of us are free to say, "Here are the conditions on which this relationship works for me."

      Delete
  9. Just dropping by to say what an interesting discussion this has turned into this week. Great stuff. KDP is a real asset to this blog. Long may he contribute.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks, Tommy. Most people leave the "et" off of "asset" when describing me, so I appreciate your compliment.

      (Oh and if you feel that way, you should visit MY blog where Dan, Merry, Tomy, et.al. also can be found! ;-) )

      Delete
    2. Indeed Tommy. Who would have thought people would find the root cause of my drinking habits more worthy of response that DD's impact on women's sexual appetites. ;-)

      Delete
    3. Hey, there are few things more gratifying than giving other people advice we ourselves don't have to follow.

      Delete
  10. Whenever I read about your overindulgence of alcohol, it makes me glad that Shilo isn't a drinker.

    Anyway, back to the subject: In years past, Shilo has accused/complained that I have had arbitrary rules. (Forgive my weird language)

    The problem is that he needs to feel that there is a logical reason behind any of my rules and expectations, and he's not afraid to ask for my reasoning. "Because I said so" is not logical, and therefore, it's arbitrary, and because he can be a stubborn ass, he will argue the point.

    Honestly, I prefer to not have those types of discussions, so I will carefully think out my reasons before I present anything to him.

    Also, even though I referred to him as a stubborn ass, he really isn't. It's just that he prefers logical reasons for discipline.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Maybe if he drank he wouldn't care as much about logical reasoning. Just a thought. ;-)

      Delete
    2. Probably true 😜


      But I have such a strong intolerance for people who drink alcohol, that those relationships end before they begin.💔

      Delete
    3. Yet, you and I have been together for years. ;-)

      Delete
    4. I don't have to live or sleep with you!

      Delete
  11. When my wife is unhappy with my behavior, we have "a discussion." These discussions frequently include some "non-verbal communication" which leaves my back side aching. Our general policy is that once a discussion is completed, the incident will not be brought up again. Repeated offenses are an exception to this general policy. If I do something similar in the future (or forget to do something similar), then she is likely to point out that the previous discussion was apparently not sufficiently effective at communicating her feelings. As we re-hash the verbal portion, she asks me if anything was unclear to me before my recent behavior. Usually, she concludes that the non-verbal portion must have been the issue and proceeds to address that.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Part 1

    Great discussion as always! Sorry for the long response. I have a jumble of thoughts about punishment in its different forms. Of course, if I knew anything of much value I would be writing a book instead of a blog reply...!

    There seems to be debate about whether punishment works, if it must be consensual or not, and if desire to change is needed. In short, I think punishment will modify behavior if it makes the risk/reward ratio of the behavior unfavorable. But real, fundamental change (not just behavioral change) is always the result of the desire to change.

    For example, I speed most of the time while driving. However I never go way over the limit because I don't want to be in huge trouble if I am caught. I still speed, knowing that I generally will get away with it, but the threat of punishment GREATLY reduces my speed compared to if there were no limits. I don't go slower because of some desire to change but rather to avoid serious punishment. At the same time I don't really get that much pleasure or benefit out of speeding, so the risk of even moderate punishment is enough to keep me at least somewhat in check. If my speed was constantly monitored or if the punishment for speeding was much worse, I would never speed because the risk would be too great for the reward.

    Now on to DD-related punishments. As I wrote last week, I am struggling to overcome intertia and get myself working effectively on a new product I am developing. Since I was simply not getting it done, I asked my wife to help, and she is taking it very seriously. I have daily self-reporting, culimating in weekly check-ins where any shortcomings are harshly punished. In this case, the idea was mine, but the details of implementation are largely set by her.

    It probably isn't perfect, but it is really good. She is setting the bar perhaps too high, but that offsets me setting it too low for too long. Also, I might be tempted to "cheat" on daily reporting, but still in the end I must deliver something so I can't cheat too much. I have asked her to be very demanding during this time, and she is doing exactly that, even more than I expected. It is not always easy to accept, even though it was me who asked for it, but it comes with the territory of her having this authority and responsibility. Because I greatly respect her, I recognize that she is likely right even when we disagree about what the goals should be or how hard I am working to achieve them. Finally, it is a challenge for her to punish me to the degree that is probably fitting for the seriousness of the situation.

    Overall, this program is greatly helping me to push forward. In this case the punishments may not be the real cause of the change as much as me not wanting to disappoint her and myself. However, the punishments provide very, very good reinforcement to the whole process and so somehow it just works.

    -ZM

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi ZM. This is a really, really great set of comments. First, I love the observation, "In short, I think punishment will modify behavior if it makes the risk/reward ratio of the behavior unfavorable." Speeding is, indeed, a great example.

      I'm glad to hear your new work regimen is working. I cannot say the same, but for reasons a little out of both our control.

      Delete
  13. Part 2

    While the work thing is totally consensual with clearly defined "rules" and it is something that I am totally aware whether I am succeeding or failing at, there might be other things that she may punish me for which are not quite as consensual or deliberate on my part. For example, if she sees me excessively checking out a girl (purely hypothetically of course!) I might not even have any idea that I am doing it, so it is not deliberate disobedience or disrespect. I would agree in principle that I shouldn't be doing that, so there would be no debate on whether it is ok or not and even though there is not really a rule about this, it is something she can observe and punish for because it is disrespectful of her, myself, and to the girl I am checking out.

    If she punished me for this, it would almost certainly work. I want to be respectful to all, and it would serve as a very clear communication of her feelings. I would feel very bad about the situation and how it made her feel. Even though I may not have been aware I was looking before, after several days of my subconscious being retrained by a persistantly sore bottom, I would undoubtedly be more aware in the future. In this case, it is not risk/reward, but rather the desire to change that would improve my behavior.

    A final example is she has told me to arrange all the clothes in my closet and to keep it orderly from now on. She chose this, it certainly wasn't from me! I agree that it is probably good, but a clean closet wouldn't be on my radar screen unless she put it there. Last week, I didn't get it done in the allotted time because I procrastinated. This was not intentional disobedience, because I thought that I would get it done. At the same time, my failure was due to a conscious decision. I knew about deadline, and I intentionally put it off so was punished for it.

    Punishment worked because even though it is not a big deal to me, I don't disagree with the rule, I can do it, and few reminders here and there will make it happen. I am not sure that change will be because I necessarily want it, and I am not sure that it is really a risk/reward thing, but rather just punishment will help to build and reinforce new habits.

    -ZM

    ReplyDelete
  14. Part 3 (the last one!)

    Thankfully I don't have any example of deliberate disobedience (yet), but it will probably crop up at some time. For it to be deliberate, I have to know there is a rule, whether I agree with it or not. I think it is safe to assume the rule is not something I deeply disagree with and it is nothing too unreasonable. At the same time, I must either not fully agree with the rule or there must be some pretty strong temptation to break it, or it wouldn't be a problem.

    Now, let's say that I intentionally break the rule, and know at the time that I am doing so, so pretty much textbook disobedience.

    In this case, punishment could work in two ways. Ideally it would serve as communication that would somehow get me to rethink the situation, I would see things from a new perspective, and I would want to change. Somewhat less desirable but equally effective would be if the punishment was so severe that even though I might not like the rule, I wouldn't dare to break it again. If neither of these are true, then I would probably continue disobeying, but trying harder to avoid getting caught in the future.

    I had a close family member that ended up in prison due to substance abuse problems. It changed his life, to say the least. He has been clean and sober for many years, and is now a pastor of a church. Prison didn't change him exactly, but it made him see himself clearly and that made him want to change. Of course, there are countless fellow inmates of his who served their time and went right on doing what they were doing before. Punishment or the threat of punishment doesn't guarantee change, but rather it provides a wake-up call about how your actions affect others and some motivation to look inside yourself and to decide who you want to be and how you want to act.

    -ZM

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "In this case, punishment could work in two ways. Ideally it would serve as communication that would somehow get me to rethink the situation, I would see things from a new perspective, and I would want to change. Somewhat less desirable but equally effective would be if the punishment was so severe that even though I might not like the rule, I wouldn't dare to break it again. If neither of these are true, then I would probably continue disobeying, but trying harder to avoid getting caught in the future."

      Too true!

      I too know someone whose substance abuse problem led to prison. Like your family member, for him prison was reset that allowed him to put his life in order. Others -- consequences just don't matter. And, it's not just temptations like drugs. Some just like doing certain crimes and just don't care if punishment befalls them. I do think that DD often like the former situation than the latter, because it is very often the men who initiate it. They *want* the coercive force of DD punishment, whether it is for self-improvement or a strong need for accountability and atonement.

      Delete
  15. My opinion is that when there are "substances" involved; regardless of the form they are packaged in - alcohol being one of the forms - corporal punishment might help slightly and even then it would have to be in conjunction with a more focused form of intervention.

    Substance-related problems worm their way deep into the individual's biology. So while will power is a critical factor, it's just insufficient. By the way, most people evaluate their own issues with subsistence having too much power over them (sometimes) as "minor or social or just an annoyance". Getting them past that self-deception is step one.

    ReplyDelete

Your comment will posted if/when approved by the moderator. This blog is a curated resource for those genuinely and positively interested in DD and FLR lifestyles. Comments that are rude, uncivil, inconsistent with the blog's theme or off-topic may not be posted or may be removed.