tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post3465098061900131035..comments2024-03-28T21:45:05.911-07:00Comments on The Disciplinary Couples Club: The Forum - Vol. 236 - Disobedience and Repeat OffensesDan - A Disciplined Hubbyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01588294648648656600noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-71862674862819909762018-01-28T06:23:19.833-08:002018-01-28T06:23:19.833-08:00I don't have to live or sleep with you!I don't have to live or sleep with you!Merry Contraryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13605968415958113942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-81837333583663140722018-01-27T06:03:16.850-08:002018-01-27T06:03:16.850-08:00My opinion is that when there are "substances...My opinion is that when there are "substances" involved; regardless of the form they are packaged in - alcohol being one of the forms - corporal punishment might help slightly and even then it would have to be in conjunction with a more focused form of intervention.<br /><br />Substance-related problems worm their way deep into the individual's biology. So while will power is a critical factor, it's just insufficient. By the way, most people evaluate their own issues with subsistence having too much power over them (sometimes) as "minor or social or just an annoyance". Getting them past that self-deception is step one.Tomy Nashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208893789610692117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-88218027425728338722018-01-25T17:50:22.802-08:002018-01-25T17:50:22.802-08:00It usually does, but while I try not to repeat tho...It usually does, but while I try not to repeat those offenses (for obvious reasons), my other misdemeanors inevitably earn me - at the very least - one or two encounters with J's hairbrush or with the kitchen spoon in the course of the week (if only over the weekend when I am expected to perform my 'domestic' chores...<br />L.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-9915204855178823752018-01-25T13:44:42.442-08:002018-01-25T13:44:42.442-08:00Yet, you and I have been together for years. ;-)Yet, you and I have been together for years. ;-)Dan - A Disciplined Hubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01588294648648656600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-7615884980046950822018-01-25T10:24:40.474-08:002018-01-25T10:24:40.474-08:00Probably true 😜
But I have such a strong intol...Probably true 😜 <br /><br /><br />But I have such a strong intolerance for people who drink alcohol, that those relationships end before they begin.💔Merry Contraryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13605968415958113942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-43609392823362451842018-01-24T18:06:27.010-08:002018-01-24T18:06:27.010-08:00"In this case, punishment could work in two w..."In this case, punishment could work in two ways. Ideally it would serve as communication that would somehow get me to rethink the situation, I would see things from a new perspective, and I would want to change. Somewhat less desirable but equally effective would be if the punishment was so severe that even though I might not like the rule, I wouldn't dare to break it again. If neither of these are true, then I would probably continue disobeying, but trying harder to avoid getting caught in the future."<br /><br />Too true! <br /><br />I too know someone whose substance abuse problem led to prison. Like your family member, for him prison was reset that allowed him to put his life in order. Others -- consequences just don't matter. And, it's not just temptations like drugs. Some just like doing certain crimes and just don't care if punishment befalls them. I do think that DD often like the former situation than the latter, because it is very often the men who initiate it. They *want* the coercive force of DD punishment, whether it is for self-improvement or a strong need for accountability and atonement.Dan - A Disciplined Hubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01588294648648656600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-13046802874621766602018-01-24T18:00:29.337-08:002018-01-24T18:00:29.337-08:00Again, great examples. Again, great examples. Dan - A Disciplined Hubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01588294648648656600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-68533408200715638482018-01-24T17:57:51.572-08:002018-01-24T17:57:51.572-08:00Hi ZM. This is a really, really great set of comme...Hi ZM. This is a really, really great set of comments. First, I love the observation, "In short, I think punishment will modify behavior if it makes the risk/reward ratio of the behavior unfavorable." Speeding is, indeed, a great example.<br /><br />I'm glad to hear your new work regimen is working. I cannot say the same, but for reasons a little out of both our control.Dan - A Disciplined Hubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01588294648648656600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-56987620899672868292018-01-24T16:42:49.567-08:002018-01-24T16:42:49.567-08:00Part 3 (the last one!)
Thankfully I don't hav...Part 3 (the last one!)<br /><br />Thankfully I don't have any example of deliberate disobedience (yet), but it will probably crop up at some time. For it to be deliberate, I have to know there is a rule, whether I agree with it or not. I think it is safe to assume the rule is not something I deeply disagree with and it is nothing too unreasonable. At the same time, I must either not fully agree with the rule or there must be some pretty strong temptation to break it, or it wouldn't be a problem. <br /><br />Now, let's say that I intentionally break the rule, and know at the time that I am doing so, so pretty much textbook disobedience.<br /><br />In this case, punishment could work in two ways. Ideally it would serve as communication that would somehow get me to rethink the situation, I would see things from a new perspective, and I would want to change. Somewhat less desirable but equally effective would be if the punishment was so severe that even though I might not like the rule, I wouldn't dare to break it again. If neither of these are true, then I would probably continue disobeying, but trying harder to avoid getting caught in the future.<br /><br />I had a close family member that ended up in prison due to substance abuse problems. It changed his life, to say the least. He has been clean and sober for many years, and is now a pastor of a church. Prison didn't change him exactly, but it made him see himself clearly and that made him want to change. Of course, there are countless fellow inmates of his who served their time and went right on doing what they were doing before. Punishment or the threat of punishment doesn't guarantee change, but rather it provides a wake-up call about how your actions affect others and some motivation to look inside yourself and to decide who you want to be and how you want to act.<br /><br />-ZM<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-81371557984629995352018-01-24T16:40:27.284-08:002018-01-24T16:40:27.284-08:00Part 2
While the work thing is totally consensual...Part 2<br /><br />While the work thing is totally consensual with clearly defined "rules" and it is something that I am totally aware whether I am succeeding or failing at, there might be other things that she may punish me for which are not quite as consensual or deliberate on my part. For example, if she sees me excessively checking out a girl (purely hypothetically of course!) I might not even have any idea that I am doing it, so it is not deliberate disobedience or disrespect. I would agree in principle that I shouldn't be doing that, so there would be no debate on whether it is ok or not and even though there is not really a rule about this, it is something she can observe and punish for because it is disrespectful of her, myself, and to the girl I am checking out.<br /><br />If she punished me for this, it would almost certainly work. I want to be respectful to all, and it would serve as a very clear communication of her feelings. I would feel very bad about the situation and how it made her feel. Even though I may not have been aware I was looking before, after several days of my subconscious being retrained by a persistantly sore bottom, I would undoubtedly be more aware in the future. In this case, it is not risk/reward, but rather the desire to change that would improve my behavior.<br /><br />A final example is she has told me to arrange all the clothes in my closet and to keep it orderly from now on. She chose this, it certainly wasn't from me! I agree that it is probably good, but a clean closet wouldn't be on my radar screen unless she put it there. Last week, I didn't get it done in the allotted time because I procrastinated. This was not intentional disobedience, because I thought that I would get it done. At the same time, my failure was due to a conscious decision. I knew about deadline, and I intentionally put it off so was punished for it. <br /><br />Punishment worked because even though it is not a big deal to me, I don't disagree with the rule, I can do it, and few reminders here and there will make it happen. I am not sure that change will be because I necessarily want it, and I am not sure that it is really a risk/reward thing, but rather just punishment will help to build and reinforce new habits.<br /><br />-ZM<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-22601242415892147712018-01-24T16:38:14.995-08:002018-01-24T16:38:14.995-08:00Part 1
Great discussion as always! Sorry for the ...Part 1<br /><br />Great discussion as always! Sorry for the long response. I have a jumble of thoughts about punishment in its different forms. Of course, if I knew anything of much value I would be writing a book instead of a blog reply...!<br /><br />There seems to be debate about whether punishment works, if it must be consensual or not, and if desire to change is needed. In short, I think punishment will modify behavior if it makes the risk/reward ratio of the behavior unfavorable. But real, fundamental change (not just behavioral change) is always the result of the desire to change.<br /><br />For example, I speed most of the time while driving. However I never go way over the limit because I don't want to be in huge trouble if I am caught. I still speed, knowing that I generally will get away with it, but the threat of punishment GREATLY reduces my speed compared to if there were no limits. I don't go slower because of some desire to change but rather to avoid serious punishment. At the same time I don't really get that much pleasure or benefit out of speeding, so the risk of even moderate punishment is enough to keep me at least somewhat in check. If my speed was constantly monitored or if the punishment for speeding was much worse, I would never speed because the risk would be too great for the reward. <br /><br />Now on to DD-related punishments. As I wrote last week, I am struggling to overcome intertia and get myself working effectively on a new product I am developing. Since I was simply not getting it done, I asked my wife to help, and she is taking it very seriously. I have daily self-reporting, culimating in weekly check-ins where any shortcomings are harshly punished. In this case, the idea was mine, but the details of implementation are largely set by her.<br /><br />It probably isn't perfect, but it is really good. She is setting the bar perhaps too high, but that offsets me setting it too low for too long. Also, I might be tempted to "cheat" on daily reporting, but still in the end I must deliver something so I can't cheat too much. I have asked her to be very demanding during this time, and she is doing exactly that, even more than I expected. It is not always easy to accept, even though it was me who asked for it, but it comes with the territory of her having this authority and responsibility. Because I greatly respect her, I recognize that she is likely right even when we disagree about what the goals should be or how hard I am working to achieve them. Finally, it is a challenge for her to punish me to the degree that is probably fitting for the seriousness of the situation.<br /><br />Overall, this program is greatly helping me to push forward. In this case the punishments may not be the real cause of the change as much as me not wanting to disappoint her and myself. However, the punishments provide very, very good reinforcement to the whole process and so somehow it just works.<br /><br />-ZM<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-79171326125497008482018-01-24T08:13:02.231-08:002018-01-24T08:13:02.231-08:00A very logical progression of communications.A very logical progression of communications.Dan - A Disciplined Hubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01588294648648656600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-60134570156911273402018-01-24T07:48:47.434-08:002018-01-24T07:48:47.434-08:00When my wife is unhappy with my behavior, we have ...When my wife is unhappy with my behavior, we have "a discussion." These discussions frequently include some "non-verbal communication" which leaves my back side aching. Our general policy is that once a discussion is completed, the incident will not be brought up again. Repeated offenses are an exception to this general policy. If I do something similar in the future (or forget to do something similar), then she is likely to point out that the previous discussion was apparently not sufficiently effective at communicating her feelings. As we re-hash the verbal portion, she asks me if anything was unclear to me before my recent behavior. Usually, she concludes that the non-verbal portion must have been the issue and proceeds to address that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-11734054198685475622018-01-23T18:05:52.299-08:002018-01-23T18:05:52.299-08:00Ain't that the truth!Ain't that the truth!<br /><br />Dan - A Disciplined Hubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01588294648648656600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-33909549844933834802018-01-23T13:11:35.897-08:002018-01-23T13:11:35.897-08:00Hey, there are few things more gratifying than giv...Hey, there are few things more gratifying than giving other people advice we ourselves don't have to follow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-59260858646124852562018-01-23T12:59:00.339-08:002018-01-23T12:59:00.339-08:00Hmmmm. I see what you are getting at.....but then ...Hmmmm. I see what you are getting at.....but then that leads to other questions. Oh well, I didn't mean to turn this into a "let's psychoanalyze Dan"-fest (well, maybe a little) but no sense dragging it out. I'm sure you and your honey will get it all figured out. ;-)<br /><br />All this postulating has made me thirsty. Time for a nice Negroni. ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-44071300302584525002018-01-23T12:03:19.558-08:002018-01-23T12:03:19.558-08:00Maybe if he drank he wouldn't care as much abo...Maybe if he drank he wouldn't care as much about logical reasoning. Just a thought. ;-)Dan - A Disciplined Hubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01588294648648656600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-59543703824394991022018-01-23T12:02:18.819-08:002018-01-23T12:02:18.819-08:00Indeed Tommy. Who would have thought people would ...Indeed Tommy. Who would have thought people would find the root cause of my drinking habits more worthy of response that DD's impact on women's sexual appetites. ;-)Dan - A Disciplined Hubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01588294648648656600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-71316828310060838792018-01-23T12:00:58.288-08:002018-01-23T12:00:58.288-08:00I really like that distinction. It is consistent w...I really like that distinction. It is consistent with my answer to people who insist that if the wife gives her husband an ultimatum that he must agree to certain rules and take spankings if he breaks them, then his compliance is not consensual or that there is something wrong with her ultimatum. No, if you don't like the conditions your partner places on continuing the relationship, you can always leave. You don't have some "right" to be in a relationship with someone else, and all of us are free to say, "Here are the conditions on which this relationship works for me."Dan - A Disciplined Hubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01588294648648656600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-17643494032140711722018-01-23T11:56:19.108-08:002018-01-23T11:56:19.108-08:00I do think that is at least somewhat effective in ...I do think that is at least somewhat effective in diminishing the likelihood of a repeat offense.Dan - A Disciplined Hubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01588294648648656600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-81643408499122224602018-01-23T11:55:10.358-08:002018-01-23T11:55:10.358-08:00NO, I don't think it has anything to do with n...NO, I don't think it has anything to do with needing to appear a certain way. I think it is a lot simpler than that. People in groups drink because it is fun and stimulates the conversation, and I like having conversations. As de Sade said, "Conversations, like certain parts of the anatomy, work best when lubricated." I really think it is that simple. People have fun getting together over cocktails, it is an enjoyable way to interact, and when in that space, I don't want it to end. So, I don't think about ending it, not because there are not consequences but because at that moment I do not think about them. It is very much like your pickpocket example. The activity is concrete and present, while the consequences are both uncertain and in the future.Dan - A Disciplined Hubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01588294648648656600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-4240487906698612812018-01-23T07:22:26.370-08:002018-01-23T07:22:26.370-08:00I think there's a difference between Rules agr...I think there's a difference between Rules agreed with and agreed to. My boyfriend is a "poor little rich boy" whom I met last year when he came for college. He didn't like living in the dorms, but his school required him to freshman year. His parents decided to buy him a house to live in until he graduates, but the one he wanted didn't become available until Christmas. He wanted me to come and live with him, which I wanted, too, but, some of his habits were going to have to change if I were going to live with him. Now we all know how boys are, especially poor little rich college boys. He'll tell me anything, but he'll still need "reminding". It's not malicious, it's just boys (and at 19, he IS a boy, still) are careless. Since he's rich, he's used to having someone pick up after him, which I'm not going to do. <br /><br />He doesn't necessarily agree WITH My Rules that he can't leave clothes lying around everywhere, he can't leave dishes in the sink overnight, he has to put the seat on the commode down and a few others, but, if he wants me to live with him, he has to agree TO them. Since he's going to be careless, he needs to have his behavior modified to take more care. <br /><br />This isn't a FLR, so I'm not about to tell him what to do or make all of the decisions. My purpose in applying Domestic Discipline is dealing with things I won't tolerate. <br /><br />--LetitiaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-84518483554204696852018-01-23T06:39:16.146-08:002018-01-23T06:39:16.146-08:00Whenever I read about your overindulgence of alcoh...Whenever I read about your overindulgence of alcohol, it makes me glad that Shilo isn't a drinker.<br /><br />Anyway, back to the subject: In years past, Shilo has accused/complained that I have had arbitrary rules. (Forgive my weird language) <br /><br />The problem is that he needs to feel that there is a logical reason behind any of my rules and expectations, and he's not afraid to ask for my reasoning. "Because I said so" is not logical, and therefore, it's arbitrary, and because he can be a stubborn ass, he will argue the point. <br /><br />Honestly, I prefer to not have those types of discussions, so I will carefully think out my reasons before I present anything to him.<br /><br />Also, even though I referred to him as a stubborn ass, he really isn't. It's just that he prefers logical reasons for discipline. Merry Contraryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13605968415958113942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-53294047850036201932018-01-23T05:49:40.245-08:002018-01-23T05:49:40.245-08:00Thanks, Tommy. Most people leave the "et"...Thanks, Tommy. Most people leave the "et" off of "asset" when describing me, so I appreciate your compliment. <br /><br />(Oh and if you feel that way, you should visit MY blog where Dan, Merry, Tomy, et.al. also can be found! ;-) )Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6699266088923868373.post-44009294976119971692018-01-23T00:29:14.883-08:002018-01-23T00:29:14.883-08:00Just dropping by to say what an interesting discus...Just dropping by to say what an interesting discussion this has turned into this week. Great stuff. KDP is a real asset to this blog. Long may he contribute.TommyTuckerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14623087861359267962noreply@blogger.com