It is so hard to believe because
it is so hard to obey. -- Soren Kierkegarrd
Hello all. I hope you had a great week. Last week, I warned that I might not have much time to post over the coming weeks. Then, suddenly, the frantic pace just stopped, very unexpectedly. Which is always a little disconcerting. It's like my body came to a sudden stop, while my mind continues racing head. But, it's all good. Or it will be. I really was on the edge of burnout, and now I have a chance to take a breath.
It's also yet another chance to get "back on track." It's funny how thoroughly "real life" can intrude on our best laid plans. It was only a few weeks ago that we entered into a "contract" that required us both to step up our DD commitment. Then, work commitments and travel kicked in with a vengeance and it all just fizzled. But, now we have a chance to restart that, realistically, was not going to happen again for another two or three monts.
Unfortunately, while I do now have the time to post, the slowdown happened so unexpectedly that I didn't have much time to think of a topic, so I'm kind of winging this one and will keep it short.
We've had a few topics recently on rules and expectations. One we didn't talk about is, are there any rules that are imposed on you that you really don't agree with? Do you get spanked for anything that you think should not be spankable? While we talk about putting our wives in charge of disciplining us when we break the rules, doesn't real authority lie not in being the person who enforces the rules but in being the person who makes them?
In my own relationship, I can't say there are many ongoing rules she has imposed that I don't agree with. The closest we've come is probably around orgasm denial. She very recently announced that there are to be no orgasms that she is not a part of. I know some men in these relationships are into orgasm denial or control. I've never been one of them. But, I can't tell her that I want her to make rules and boundaries, and then undermine her when she steps up and makes one of her own. One other example is really more a matter of degree. We both know that I have a tendency to over-indulge in alcohol as a function of work. Sometimes its developing business. Sometimes its team building. I often find that a real conversation and real relationship building takes about three beers. She prefers to set the limit at one or two. So, it's so much that we disagree on the rule itself but, rather, the threshold at which it should be applied.
What about you? Are there rules she imposes that you would prefer did not exist? Do you ever get spanked for things you think should not be punishable?
I hope you have a great week.
WOW, what a good topic. Unfortunately, Dan, my relationship turns this around. We both created the list of infractions and both have tweaked it a few times. We have added offenses as well as removing some. When I commit an infraction and get spanked for it, I actually believe I deserve to be spanked and spanked well. I do feel better after a punishment and truly believe discipline spankings have improved my behavior and made me a better submissive. Currently I have no offenses on our list I wish were not there.
ReplyDeleteThanks, SC.
DeleteEvery orgasm you give yourself is an orgasm you are depriving her of. It's a selfish act when you give yourself an orgasm. I'm not saying this from FLR-DD perspective, or even a BDSM perspective.
ReplyDeleteThink about it: During "normal" sexual relationships, a woman is capable of multiple orgasms, but in general, a man only has ONE and then it's over.
Just thought I'd toss that at you.
Merry, your words are so very true. In my marriage, my orgasms absolutely do belong to Mistress K. and if I were to ever have one without her permission, knowledge and supervision, it would be akin to adultery.
DeleteThere may be reasons to use orgasm denial or control but, sorry, I'm not buying that one partner giving himself or herself one deprives the other. Your premise would seem to assume that both parties are (a) always together; (b) always available for sex even when together; and (c) always interested. The argument breaks down on the very first of those elements. I travel a lot on business, for example. If I have an orgasm while on the road, I have no more deprived my wife of one than I have deprived of her of a nice cabernet if I have one by myself in the hotel bar. It's also not like there is some finite supply of orgasms. My wife owns a vibrator. I assume she uses it, especially though not solely while I am traveling. I don't see how she is depriving me of anything when she decides to rub one out herself and, in fact, I bought the vibrator for her.
DeleteI fully agree with Dan on this one.Was wondering if this is addressed in you agreement as your wife should have asked to have it included.
Delete@Dan: women are capable of multiple orgasms, so her giving herself an orgasm doesn't deprive you.
DeleteOkay, so you travel. I understand that. Would it be too difficult to discuss having/getting an orgasm with her beforehand?
Just a thought...
@sub hub in PHX: I wouldn't carry it quite as far as you and your Mistress do. Like I told Dan: I don't view this from an FLR-DD or BDSM perspective. I also admit that it is my personal perspective and opinion, so YMMV. It's not for everyone.
DeleteMerry, I don't think either of those points really refute mine. Sure women are capable of multiple orgasms. So are men . . . depending on the timeline involved. *Some* women, though by no means all and probably not even a majority, can and do have multiple orgasms in a single session. After a brief period after an orgasm most men under a certain age can get it up again. So, for example, if he has one before work, how is she deprived of one later that night. Same thing with the travel example. If one partner has a two or three day business trip, how does getting one with her right before leaves have any logical or practical impact on the issue of whether she has been deprived of anything if he gives himself on on day 2 of that trip. As I said, there may be many good reasons for doing orgasm denial, and it is clear that many men in these lifestyles want it that way. So, while it isn't my thing I don't have any problem with the concept -- I just don't think "his solo orgasm is wrong because it deprives her of one" holds water under normal circumstances. Now, I am not saying that there are cases where men are using masturbation as a *substitute* for sex with a willing and available partner, which obviously is a problem, but a different one.
DeleteGlenmore, yes, she did include it in our agreement. She had brought it up, for the first time, a few weeks before after I made the mistake of referring her to an FLR blog that discussed it heavily.
Delete@Glen It is in ALL my agreements.
Delete@ALL: Like I wrote above, it was a personal opinion. In my case, both Stitch and Shilo have undergone changes in their sex drive, and if they masturbate instead of engaging in intercourse with me, I could potentially go MONTHS without engaging in intercourse.
DeleteYes, I am happy to receive oral pleasure from them, but it's not the same for me.
Very recently Mrs GL imposed a rule. This is unusual as normally I initiated the rules, whether for me or both. I am seriously considering asking her for a list. As an aside we travel across the spectrum sometimes at a dizzy speed. For most of the Autumn I have had my domme head in play (and thus didn`t feel contributing here was approprite). Now I am very much in the sub space, to the point where I call myself the husbife. If whilst in that space Mrs GL takes control and sets down rules, so long as I retain dignity I will accept them. Cheers Good Life Mickey.
ReplyDeleteThanks, GLM. It's also been much more common in our relationship for me to suggest the rules. Though, most of them were things that addressed very apparent problems.
DeleteYes, of course there are rules that she has imposed that I wish did not exist ... but they do, and I have agreed to follow those rules, even if I don't agree they should exist. In fact, I find it comforting/arousing to be engaged in a task (or something else) that I am required to do. Likewise, I am spanked for things that I don't find punishable ... but soon realize that the term punishable is defined by Mistress K.
ReplyDeleteThanks, SubHub. I have to agree -- there is something both comforting and arousing about having the rules and boundaries imposed even when you don't agree.
DeleteThere have been a few occasions when I felt that I was punished when 'in my opinion' a rule had not been violated.
ReplyDeleteI later realised that it is her interpretation of the rule which matters not mine.
The one rule which appears to be a bit contentious for us is the one regarding not criticizing her opinions. There can be a thin line between criticism and a difference of opinion.
Like most couples we have our differences and for the most part are respectful but I have come to realise I need to be careful not to cross that line as she is the one who interprets the rules.
There have only been a few situations where we had situations where she felt this rule was violated and I did not.
I noted that two of them were when we had a difference of opinion in front of others. When I disagree with her views with others present she considers this embarrassing and not respecting her opinion.It is her interpretation and as the 'referee' her interpretation is the one that counts and that decision is final.
The other incident where her interpretation of the rule differed from mine was when I have a strong opinion on something and go off in a rant as I often do. It frustrates me that she has no opinion on the subject .
So I rant even more and despite her warnings to stop I earned a paddling.
When I protested that I had not broken the rule as she actually had no opinion, her interpretation was that I was not respecting her right to have no opinion and was bullying her into agreeing with mine.
When I thought about it -she was right!
In Dan ' s example regarding the number of drinks, she has interpreted the limit to be two so, as the referee, she makes the call and Dan needs to know that ordering that 3rd drink could be detrimental to his backside!
That is how we work anyway and once I realized how she interprets our rules I know where the line is and try not to cross it.
I agree that issue of the line between criticizing her opinion and voicing one of your own can be difficult. My strongest opinions tend to be around politics, and while I am more obsessed with it than she is, our opinions are fairly similar. But, I have gotten in trouble with her before not for the content of an opinion but for voicing it too strongly in social gatherings. It's not the content that bothers her, but the act of being domineering or boorish around others.
DeleteOne think I've learned is to be careful how I act and what I say in company.She is more lenient if it's just the two of us.
DeleteGood Sunday Dan. We do not have any official rules. It's usually pretty obvious when I crossed the line. She may give a warning. A knowing look or she'll simply say bring me the paddle.! Recently she found a long handled spoon. With all the implements in her Arsenal , this was not one of them. I've read the horror stories associated with them but now that I experienced a couple I can say it's down right wicked !.... There have been several times when I accepted a spanking when I did no wrong if any kind. After several days of tension I found it easier to go over her knee and get it over with. After things are immediatly better and back to normal. She thought I said something a while back ( I didn't ) and gave a very severe paddling. A few weeks later my daughter verified that I did not say what she thought she heard. Dev was remorseful but the damage was done. This has happened before and will probably happen again.
ReplyDeleteHi Jr. It's obviously unfortunate that you got a paddling for something you didn't actually do. I will say that for me, I would probably be willing to trade the risk of a few of those incidents for the certainty that punishment likely would be forthcoming when I *have* done something that we both know merits one.
DeleteDan
ReplyDeleteOnce I agree to the terms I live by them. That doesnt mean I like them, think they are fair, nor does it mean I can even complain or as Anna says, whine about them. I, like you have to do much after hours work with clients. Anna has said I have a two drink maximum. When I said I was capable of three drinks , Anna smiled and said two firmly. When i tried to debate the that matter,Anna smiled and said sip the drinks;
As to orgasm control, I long ago accepted none without her present. When at first I objected to that Anna smiled again and said sweetly. " ADJUST! and find the heat in it " Case closed.
Peter
Hi Peter. If there is one rule I pretty consistently break, it is the two-drink maximum. Often, there isn't even a conscious choice involved. No little voice says, "She's told me two, but I'll just break the rule and have three." Instead, after two, the rule just doesn't even occur to me.
DeleteI let her do it whatever I think of the rights and wrongs, the condition being that she gives me however many she thinks are necessary and then a line is drawn under things.
ReplyDeleteWe also have the 'no orgasm without her' rule which I fully support but occasionally break. There are no 'rules' that I disagree with. I do have an issue with consistency in that being very logical I would like absolute clarity that if a rule is broken, punishment follows.NO deviation, no surprises, none of that tense 'will she/won't she?'
ReplyDeleteI know I am being unrealistic but I also know how positively I respond when she is really 'on her game' and focused on keeping me to the boundaries. Of course I tell her and she is becoming much clearer & sees boundary guarding & consequences almost as another facet of being a loving Wife. TB
Its really great that she's getting there.
DeleteActually have said all that there is a recent rule - no reading spanking fiction - which I struggle with.She thinks it is time wasted & self-defeating. I see it as harmless & boredom killing. She wins of course and I am - so far - innocent of any transgression. But it is only a matter of time I am sure after which I may have more material for my own stories! TB
ReplyDeleteHow does she feel about you reading spanking blogs? ;-)
DeleteThis is sort of a sore subject for me. In my past major relationship with my ex, I tried to be the 'model of submissive acceptance' even as things sometimes appeared wrong or unfair. Over time these instances grew in frequency and intensity so that I started to feel that nothing I did was correct or good enough. Worse, over time, I came to believe it was true. But I kept trying to please. After our divorce.....over other issues......it took me a long time before I regained my sense of confidence and self-worth.
ReplyDeleteNow, even though I try to be deferential in most things, I find that I have a 'line'. If something crosses that line in my opinion, I refuse to accept it and even fight it. As a result all of our rules were either mutually decided upon, or at least mutually agreed to. And while there are rules I would not have initiated on y own, there are no rules I object to. I simply refuse to go down that path again.
The same is true for 'unfair' punishments. If something is a bit 'unfair' but not terribly serious, or if the idea is to 'play' with the angle of one-sided unfairness, I'm very accepting of it. If however, something is truly unfair, and makes me feel hurt, angry, or resentful, I WILL NOT bow to it until I understand it and can accept it. And if it turns out I missed something and she was right? Then I'll submit to whatever she decides appropriate, but if after a load of discussion, I am adamant in my innocence, I will not submit. Instead, I will try to figure out some other way for us both to resolve the issue.
But probably the thing I am most sensitive to is 'tone'. Rosa can tell me what she wants and in most cases I'll do it, or give her a reason why I don't think we should do the thing she says. But if she says something in a way that makes me feel demeaned, even slightly or accidentally, I tend to react VERY negatively. It does end up ruining some otherwise good days, (in fact it happened Sunday) but I simply refuse to live any other way. I feel like I'm willing to concede an awful lot as the 'submissive'...............but I will not surrender everything, especially my own feelings of self worth. I guess there's a simple bargain in effect: if you want me to watch what I say and do, you need to also watch what you say and do as well.
And if someone was to say, "well, you're weakening your FLR and not being truly submissive." I'd have to maintain that while I may be weakening my FLR, I am at least preserving the relationship. Better a weak FLR than no relationship at all.
Hey KD. I don't see any problem with any of this. I don't see it so much as a "weak FLR" as an FLR with common sense boundaries. There also is very distinct difference in my mind between being female "led" and female "dominated."
DeleteIn my own relationship, we have not encountered an issue where I felt like she was crossing some fundamental boundary, but there are definitely things I would balk at. For example, career. If she tried to dictate where I work or how I approach career needs, I would definitely draw a line, because my work is really core to my identity.
@KD: Shilo reacts much the same way as you if he feels it's unfair or I use a tone of voice or maybe say things a certain way.
DeleteIt can be a struggle,and if you toss in his moodiness, I sometimes want to scream, but I really can't complain, because he's mostly good. He doesn't smoke, drink alcohol, and he has very few annoying habits. We aren't raising children, and now that we don't have a house to take care of, there's less to argue about.
Good Morning, for us, it's mostly a matter of me not 'seeing' things like she does. I don't see the clay on the floor from my tennis shoes when I forget to take them off when I"m in the garage. So, our protocol helps my eyesight.
ReplyDeleteHey, that's a lot cheaper than going to an optometrist.
DeleteMy wife makes the rules and expects me to follow them. There has never been a rule that I felt was unfair. We also have the 'no orgasm without her' rule since she views masturbating (especially to porn) the same as adultery. The times where we have been apart, she makes sure I have relief before leaving or grants me permission while gone.
ReplyDeleteDan, this is a very timely subject for us. It has been our understanding that my judgement is the final arbiter as to if Bart is to be punished and if so the nature of the punishment . Recently there have been a series of incidents where expletives have been used. I have introduced a new measure to emphasize my dissatisfaction with with these demeaning and embarrassing outbursts. After years of me dishing out some pretty serious paddlings and strappings rarely did Bart commit the same offense. The recent bad language cases and rapid reoccurring episodes have caused me to introduce mouth soaping . The first time I washed his mouth he hated it. I told him if he doesn’t like the punishment don’t use bad language, we had a very intense argument about my adding this and he had refused to comply. I expressed my dismay at his decision to question my methods and authority. For the first time in our DD arrangement we had several days where we avoided each other, both angry. Subsequently he apologized and said he would honor my decision, after acknowledging that we both hated the schism I washed his moouth and gave him one of the hardest strappings ever, problem solved
ReplyDeleteHi, Sylvia. I'm curious: what do you think would have happened if your husband remained staunch in his opposition to the soaping? Or even the rule itself?
DeleteRosa and I do not have such rule and the rules we are committed to have all been mutually agreed upon. In my case, I am thankful that Rosa has never tried to impose such a restriction and I believe that if she did, we would have had a major impasse.
Have you ever had such a situation, or has Bart always agreed to your terms?
Thanks. (KDP)
Dear KDP
DeleteOur DD relationship started as resekut of his need . At first I was resistant as I didn’t want to be his mother or a maternal figure and the very idea of spanking him seemed a concession on my part.
Not long after our first trials with DD I found that I liked both the act of spanking him and his subsequent improvement in his attitude towards me. We have had a few disagreements about me falsely accusing him or him taking issue with the level of punishment on a few occassiions where he just wasn’t getting that he was hurting my feelings and out of line. After these disagreements and in each case when we have decided to continue on I always have given him the harshest spankings. He has shared that after these exchanges and after a day or two to recover he always feels the mostt loved. BTW he really hates mouth soaping and he knows for sure it will happen again if he isn’t careful.
"The first time I washed his mouth he hated it. I told him if he doesn’t like the punishment don’t use bad language . . ." Such a great response!
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteL, sorry, I actually didn't mean to delete this comment. Somehow hit the wrong button.
DeleteDan. I hope you don't mind if I double back on a topic from the past - written rules. After my wife and I read and talked about Glenmore's rules she decided that there should be written rules for me. We started w Glenmore's and added a few more. When she was satisfied she had me write them multiple times (25) over several days.. Her expectation is for me to have my rules deeply engrained in my head. Now at any time she likes she calls me over to her to recite my rules. Other times she calls out a number and I am expected to recite the rule immediately. She told me that her plan is to have me recite the rules for her whenever my behavior begiins to waiver She told me she will have no qualms about having me recite my rules in front of family and fiends. If she is true to her word I think this might definitely have a positive effect on my behavior.
ReplyDeleteThanks for a great blog.
vic
I did a lot of reciting the rules in the beginning Vic , usually with prompting from her paddle.Now I know them by heart but it's still an effort to comply.
DeleteThat's great, Vic. Glad to hear she got into it in such a big way.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteInteresting that you didn't have much time to think of a topic, and somehow in winging it, you came up with the question that pretty well defines the character of a DD or FLR relationship!
I have always sought this kind of relationship and having it is a dream come true for me, but for it to really work for me, I need it to be real, not just a spanking game. I think my deep seated need for discipline comes from needing enforced boundaries, and probably my fascination with and desire for discipline probably has roots in parental discipline and/or school paddlings. In both these situations, the party administering the discipline has essentially unlimited authority (at least from the perspective of the one being punished), and the punishment is completely non-consensual.
Our relationship is of course completely consensual and it is in fact me who requested her to discipline me. However, for it to be in any way real to me and to fulfill this need, the discipline itself must be fully imposed by her. Consequently, I have given her absolute authority to determine what is a spankable offense, if I have committed an offense or not, and if so how and how much she should punish me. I could always stop the disciplinary aspect of our relationship, but if I want this kind of relationship, and I want it to be real, then complete surrender of authority in disciplinary matters just comes with the territory.
She has never implemented a rule that I don't agree with, but she generally confines punishment to either actions of mine that hurt her feelings, or things that she sees I need to improve upon for my own benefit so while I may or may not agree that something is "spankable," I almost always agree about the rightness or wrongness of the underlying behavior.
While I might not always agree with something being suitable grounds for discipline, because I have given her the difficult tasks of being judge, jury, and executioner it is really unfair for me to expect perfection from her, so I aways try (sometimes less successfully than other times) to graciously accept what she has decided upon.
We had a great discussion about this as a result of this weeks topic, and we have agreed that in the future, I will - as always - have a chance to explain myself. However, if she feels like I am trying to talk her out of punishing me, then if she happens to agree with me no punishment will happen, but if she doesn't agree with my appeal it will result in an additional punishment for challenging the authority I have given her.
I am sure that given time, she will impose some rule I don't fully agree with, or she will wrongly punish me for something that I didn't do or that I did with good reason, since she is only human. At least I can take comfort that it will never be more "real" than in those moments, and I will be getting EXACTLY what I asked for.
-ZM
Hi ZM. "I think my deep seated need for discipline comes from needing enforced boundaries, and probably my fascination with and desire for discipline probably has roots in parental discipline and/or school paddlings. In both these situations, the party administering the discipline has essentially unlimited authority (at least from the perspective of the one being punished), and the punishment is completely non-consensual." This resonates for me, too. I don't know why I became attracted to DD, but it definitely has something to do with a powerful need for accountability and authenticity. I'm not sure to what extent it relates to parental or school paddlings, especially since my own interest emerged much later in life. But, being subject to authority that I cannot overcome is definitely compelling. Which is itself paradoxical, since I am usually so anti-authoritarian to my core, and I never give in to anyone in a battle of wills.
ReplyDeleteDan, we have had more discussions following this thread this week than any in memory. Your comments resonated with me as to where my need comes from . My home was chaotic and my Parents’s often expressed anger and frustration with violent outbursts and some physical punishment . There were no clear rules or clear expectations. My punishments were often unjust and unexplained.
ReplyDeleteTwice in my childhood I was spankef by older women, one a vice principal and once the lady next door. In each case there was a quiet confrontation that included scoldingfor the misdeed and an explanation for why I was about to get spanked. Both women after listing my offenses told me in detail what my punishment was to be and then I was left alone to “ think about what I had done. My parents punishments were not ritualistic and and often I just felt confused and abused.
In both spankings from other woman I new clearly what I had done and knew I deserved the punishment so it felt like justice or fair. I grew up in the mid west in the 1950s and it wasn’t unusual for teachers or other adults to paddle some else’s kid. Both spankings left significant marks and the one at school left it hard to sit for a day or two . After each of these incidents I felt cleansed and I never did anything to anger either of those women ever again . I was in the fifth grade when the Vice principal paddled me and for two years I avoided her and went weak in the knees when she as much as looked at me. So somehow I associate a sore bottom with being straightened out and cared about. Sylvia understands my need and ha on occasion talked about calling one of those women, never happened but left some lingering sense of whistfulness
Hi Bart. Sorry, I didn't see this until now. Our experiences were similar, though not identical. Like yours, my home was total chaos growing up, and there was a lot of violent outbursts, though not really violence against me. There were no clear rules or expectations, though in my case that played out as few punishments at all. There just weren't many rules. I only really remember one hard spanking, and it too was not deserved. School spankings were definitely just part of the daily environment, and I laugh when you mention it not being uncommon for other adults to spank someone else's kid. It happened all the time where I grew up! Weirdly, I don't recall getting many if any at school, though the threat was always there.
DeleteThinking all this through, I think maybe I get the need for discipline and boundaries from the same place you do -- not having them as a kid. But, because I really never did have that source of discipline at school or anywhere else, there was no older figure (male or female) who I came to associate it with and also did not associate spankings with a need for boundaries. Then, much, much later in life I discovered the existence of corporal punishment for adults, and the world just changed all at once.
Dan, owing to my insecurity around feeling that out of the chaos I grew up in I had no sense of trust in my parents judgement and sense of being justifiably punished . Early in our marriage Sylvia and I compared our experiences growing up. Sylvia shared that the structure in her family was clear. Sylvia’s Mom was the disciplinaria, the rules were very clear and violation of certain rules always brought the same result. After calm detailed duscription of the violation came a pants down spanking followed by hugs and forgiveness . The result of this was that few spankings were needed because they had a profound and lasting effect, as she describes a very sore bottom was memorable but left no emotional scars because she knew why she was spanked a felt loved Over the years there were a few occasions where I felt I was being wrongly sentenced. Sylvia is a thoughtful and sensitive woman . She impressed upon me the need to trust her and one of the lasting rules had been that when she decided I have acted immaturely or insensitively she unfailingly follows through with a serious spanking. We have been married for nearly 50 years. She has never mixed eroticism and spankings. While she had used many implements and on a few occasions many years ago she washed my mouth with Ivory soap, the ritual is stern and clear . We are both still healthy and due to my love for her and respect learned the spankings are few. This understanding has been very valuable over all these years.
ReplyDeleteIt's great that you found that, Bart. Sounds like a great relationship.
DeleteTo Vic. Can you also recite your written rules in reverse? I found it was easy to recite them from one to fifteen when they were demanded by my wife. However one time she told me to start at rule number fifteen, then fourteen, thirteen etc without stopping. I was unable to, and her strap ended out being rather painful for me. Needless to say, I did not have to be told to study my rules again. Now I know them inside, and out, or literally from front to back, AND back to front.
ReplyDelete