“You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by your anger.” - Gautama Buddha
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.
Once again, before we get started, I would like to thank the Disciplinary Wives who have recently joined us and to extend an invitation to all others who may be inclined to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We like having you around.
I hope you all had a great week. I’ve spent mine recovering and catching up on things after my recent motorcycle trip. Those longer trips tend to stay on my mind, as the style of riding we were doing (adventure motorcycles, aka ADVs) almost always involves some hairy on and off-bike moments, and there were long, long segments on this one where your attention had to be focused all the time, with no real breaks. And, while the riding is fun, it’s also exhausting. It’s a prescription for bringing out my irritability after several days of hard riding and rough sleeping.
Therefore, some recent comments here about irritability and temper were well-timed in providing a basis for this week’s discussion.
A new commenter, George, recounted a recent bout of snippy, attitude-laden behavior:
“I recently had something happen that concerned me enough to wake me in the middle of the night. My wife and I were running an errand at a home store for my sister-in law who cannot get around easily and I simply did not want to be there. Just after we parked and before we went into the store, she turned to me and asked me what I was angry about. I told her I had no idea what she was talking about because I thought I had hidden my inner thoughts pretty well. She came back to me with you always get "that look" when you don't want to be doing something. As we got out of the car I just went quiet and went into the store thinking I had been wronged somehow and did a cold shoulder the whole way through the store. Once we got back out and into the car, she said to me that I embarrassed her she really hates when I'm in that "mood". After a short time, I apologized for acting that way and I didn't mean to upset her. This happens a occasionally especially when I am trying to do something I think is important and she needs my help. Many times, after I snap at her, she will be hurt and things will be very quiet for a day or so until I apologize. I don't apologize immediately because I feel I'm in the right in the moment. Afterward I always find myself apologizing. But, it doesn't feel complete enough.”
I replied that I too sometimes cop an attitude when asked to do things that I don’t want to do or that require me to take my attention away from something I would prefer to be doing. And, his comment about how an apology “doesn’t feel complete enough” really resonated with me. At the very core of my attraction to DD is a need to be held accountable in a way that leaves the other person feeling like they ensured that I was really sorry, preferably to such an extent that I avoid copping a similar attitude in the future.
TG concurred, saying:
“This kind of unreasonable snappishness is the number one thing that I encourage my wife to punish for. It works. I’ve caught myself sometimes with that mood rising and had the thought of the punishment pull me back down before it even gets started.”
TG’s and my comments led George to expand a bit more on how spanking imposes a level of accountability that ends things in a way that feels quite different from merely apologizing, regardless of how sincere the apology might be:
“You have both hit the nail on the head! It's ACCOUNTABILITY that I need. Yes it’s okay that I apologize, and I always do. But, even as I am offering the apology, I am thinking, "Well that was easy." I need to be held accountable so this doesn't keep happening. Because each time it does, it pushes us just a little further apart, and that's the thought that woke me at 3AM. Just like TG says, I should have an immediate consequence for my actions. That's what punishment is all about. From an unpleasant consequence comes the discipline to take a breath, and not snap at a perfectly reasonable request.”
This discussion happened a day after my motorcycle excursion ended, and it felt connected. During last year’s trip, I was in a surly mood for much of it, but I had the excuse that I’d injured myself on the first day and was in a lot of pain throughout. On this trip, my attitude was a lot better until the final day. I was pretty much out of gas (metaphorically) at that point. There was a long but really pretty section that lasted a couple of hours. Then, near the very end of the trip, the route planners threw in a very nasty section that, after a couple of hard falls, spoiled what had been feeling like a great way to end the trip.
I didn’t direct my anger at the person I was riding with, but I made it clear what I thought of the route planners and, generally, threw a short little temper tantrum before starting up that section, then really threw a fit after going down and incurring some (minor) injuries to myself and the bike.
Almost immediately after we got past that section, I started feeling embarrassed and pissed at myself for the way I vented my frustration. Like I said, I don’t think I directed any of it at my riding companion, but I certainly directed it near him, and it all felt pretty juvenile. I went from feeling angry at the group that constructs these routes, to anger at myself for expressing that anger in the way I did.
After the fact, it led to some interesting thoughts about what it would be like to have an empowered traveling companion who might have dropped my pants then and there.
Over the 20+ years of our DD, Anne has never focused on spanking for things like a bad attitude or temper, even when directed at her. Although there may have been others, the only instance I can really think of happened last year, when I got testy over an event she planned with a friend. The details aren’t important, but it led to an exchange the next day that, at the time, felt like a huge move forward in her taking control of our communications. She calmly led me through a series of pointed, cross-examination style questions confirming that I had blown up at her; without any real warning; and, in a situation in which she couldn’t read my mind and had no reason to know how I felt about things. In prosecutor style, she led me to the inevitable admission that, yes, my temper tantrum—whether justified or not—was not an acceptable means of communicating; and, yes, it had been unfair to direct it at her; and, yes, I deserved a spanking for it.
Although I accept at face value TG’s statement that being spanked for snippiness and temper works, the issue I would foresee in my case is that when my temper hits, it hits fast. I’m not a “slow burn” kind of guy, and I’m not confident that I could feel it coming on in time to prevent it, as TG describes.
Yet, I don’t know for sure that the prospect of a hard spanking might not, in fact, give me just enough pause to cut off a bad reaction before it happens. When Anne was stepping things up substantially, I definitely did start watching my actions more closely, including my communications which can tend to snark and sarcasm.
Also, while I do think some personality attributes—like how prone we are to temper flares—are at least somewhat hardwired, that doesn’t mean we don’t have some ability to change some of those traits with real effort. I recently read a book called “Me, But Better", in which the author/journalist engaged in an experiment to try to change her scores on the “Big 5” personality components (openness to new experiences, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism).
She was somewhat surprised at the extent to which she was able to change some negative behaviors tied to her personality traits and, in the process, change her scores on the relevant personality tests. Of the “Big 5” traits, things like temper flares or, in George’s case, snapping at a reasonable request, probably would fall under “agreeableness”, and the author found that one was, in fact, fairly malleable with diligent effort.
So, while it would be challenging, I think it’s at least possible that Anne could fix some of my temper and moodiness with consistent effort. For things like my flare on this trip, it would require some self-reporting on my part, but I do feel fairly motivated to make some changes in that area, and our new weekly check-in process provides a venue for reporting and discussion.
Why hasn’t Anne focused more on temper and attitude issues? I’m not totally sure, but probably because they don’t happen all that frequently and seldom in her presence. But, I probably do express irritability enough that, if she were truly focused on observing and then dealing with it, plenty of opportunities to address it would arise.
I think it also may be that she has not quite made the mental leap to consistently seeing herself not just as wife who spanks for certain agreed-upon offenses but also as a maternal figure who can and should spank in order to correct things like temper and irritability, which when expressed are basically a form of bad manners that mothers historically would have no problem correcting, including bad manners and poor behavior that don't happen in front of her but come to her attention.
As George suggests, irritability and temper can have a pernicious impact on a relationship. And, expressing temper to people like my riding buddy can, even if not directed toward them, result in a loss of respect or embarrassment.
How about you? Do you get punished for temper, irritability, or bad attitude? What situations are most likely to trigger the problem? How promptly and how diligently is it addressed? Does your wife correct you for it only if it’s something she witnesses? How successful has it been in getting you to think and back down before a temper tantrum occurs or you vent your irritability or bad attitude?
Spanking for attitude or temper seemed to occur more often in the early years of our FLR. I have learned to curb my temper around her and I try to vent when I am alone, like when driving. A bad attitude got me spanked at a friends home. A scenario I described here before. That time there was no temper on my part, but it was deemed by her to warrant an immediate spanking. Even though we were not at home, had no spanking implements and only a semi private place to spank, I received a hard bare ass belting for my attitude.
ReplyDeleteI suspect even a threat of a spanking at a friend's home would straighten my attitude out very quickly.
DeleteConsistent discipline, combined with a desire to change, does work in addressing temper issues, but it is not an overnight process. Those characteristics are deeply rooted, and both you and your disciplinarian must be committed (or motivated, which is equivalent)
ReplyDeleteThat said,I have benefited greatly from female-administered discipline aimed at rooting out two separate types of temper/moody/snippy behavior. As it happened, my former girlfriend tackled one type – snippy, snarky, or passive aggression - which manifested when I didn’t like what we were doing or what she planned, or when I was just in a bad mood (retrospectively, much of it was just spoiled child behavior aggravated by arrogance).
Then, years later, my wife essentially eliminated the second, which was a tendency to have temper tantrums when frustrated or angry. The temper tantrums also had roots in childish behavior and attitudes. Common to both types of temper issues was the reality that both women hated the behavior and were motivated to change or modify it, Once spanking was established in the relationship, however, it became the obvious tool to deal with it.
But actually, making spanking work was tricky because of the nature of temper issues and the emotions let loose by them. Immediate spanking was not a realistic option because of the intense emotions accompanying my behavior. I will compare that to why (apparently) many disciplinary wives don’t use the spanking tool to end toxic arguments. Everyone is just too riled up to make rational spanking feasible in the moment.
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ReplyDeleteMy former GF’s method of dealing with the spoiled child behavior was to wait until we were home or the next day ( We both had cooled off and I was probably feeling guilty about my behavior while she was still hurt and angry about it) . She made me talk about it and made me feel guilty and embarrassed about it. She didn’t spank me every time, but often enough, I began to associate the behavior with being spanked as well as acutely embarrassed. In this situation, spanking acted in synergy with my own regret about the behavior and its effect on her. I really wanted to change, and the discipline may have been the nudge that made it happen—not in days or weeks, but over several months as I became increasingly aware of what I was doing and its impact on her, as well as the punishments. Her motivation to “fix things” combined with my embarrassment at the behavior probably made this a classic example of when spanking can bring about significant behavioral change. She wanted it; I wanted it; and spanking made it happen.
My wife tackled the second type of temper issue years later – and that was my temper tantrums, which often occurred under frustration or when I was angry. These instances were a serious problem in our relationship because they upset her and even frightened her. She hated seeing me lose my temper and was frustrated with it because a quick spanking was not the answer. She did start to spank me a couple of times during a tantrum, but it did nothing to calm me down in the middle of the episode and left her more frustrated. Eventually, she settled on the same tactic my former GF had, waiting until I had calmed down and was feeling guilty, and then making me talk about it and what we should do about it. Unlike my former GF, my wife does spank for every tantrum, hard and long. That has been the rule for more than a decade, and I know positively that the next tantrum I have will result in another spanking.
So I don’t throw tantrums any longer, right?
Wrong. I still do, but many fewer, and they are usually short in duration - about as long as it takes me to remember what's going to happen and how embarrassed I am by the behavior. And they no longer upset my wife as much, probably because she has a tool to manage them. AS Dan has suggested, some temper outbursts are so spontaneous that permanent erasure of them may not be practical. But as with the childish behavior that my former GF stopped, a combination of her motivation, my desire to change, and fear of punishment made a huge problem manageable.
Alan
Alan, great summary of the challenges associated with using DD to address temper, particularly timing. I'm the same with respect to being too pissed off as the temper tantrum is happening for a spanking to be effective if given at that time. But, usually by the next day (or often just a few hours later), I probably have settled down enough to make it effective.
DeleteOne thing you didn't address was tantrums that take place outside of your wife's presence. Do those go unaddressed? Or, do you report them to her?
“ One thing you didn't address was tantrums that take place outside of your wife's presence. Do those go unaddressed? Or, do you report them to her?”
DeleteThe short answer is that they do go unaddressed; a longer answer is that they don’t happen very often. That behavior mainly occurs in our relationship. I think unconsciously, I hide it from others. Only my closest friends have ever seen me throw a tantrum. Becoming angry tends to catapult me into action rather than frustration. The tantrums are usually about issues that are very tiny in the scheme of things, but that upset her greatly. The even longer answer is that our DD relationship is mainly oriented to issues or behaviors that threaten or disrespect our relationship. She has been mostly unconcerned about other behavior unless it impacts my health or our relationship. That, by the way, is my preference as well as hers. The “our relationship” scope can be very large, of course. Here is a simple example. She often uses preventive discipline or threats before social occasions when we are going to be together. But coming in late after an evening “with the guys” will not trigger discipline unless she feels directly involved somehow, or it becomes an obedience issue
Alan
Wow, Alan, you must have some really hard core temper tantrums if being spanked immediately doesn’t put an end to them! I am embarrassed at how worked up I can get, but I find being spanked for childish behaviour so shaming that it subdues me quickly. Even the threat of a spanking sometimes works. Maybe you are less sensitive to shame than I am. And when my wife spanks me for a temper tantrum, she really knows how to rub it in that she is punishing me like a child because I behave like a child. I have no emotional defence against that because when I am waiting with my pants down for her to come and spank me, I see my own childishness in a totally objective light. I suppose that my wife does sometimes employ delayed spanking to increase my sense of shame and guilt, even if it is only a matter of minutes. Waiting for her in a submissive position, bent over the end of the bed with my bottom bared, really clarifies my thoughts. I can see how an even longer delay could allow your sense of guilt. Incidentally, you use the word “guilt”. I tend to think of it as “shame”. Do you think of guilt as an emotion distinct from shame? I feel that they have a different connotation, but it’s difficult to explain the distinction. Maybe being spanked turns guilt to a feeling of shame for me.
DeleteDoug
"That behavior mainly occurs in our relationship. I think unconsciously, I hide it from others. Only my closest friends have ever seen me throw a tantrum."
DeleteThat's mostly true for me, too. It's something I don't feel particularly good about, as it seems to mean I care less about what my wife thinks of me than what friends think of me.
Doug,
DeleteImmediate spanking in the wake of a full fledged spanking cam be compared to pouring gasoline on a blazing fire. That is our experience. And a spanking or even attempted spanking in those circumstances only builds resentment in me and fosters more frustration for her. Some interval is needed until that portion of the mind responsible for rational thought is again in charge. It sounds like your wife can wade in that fiery mix of emotions and change the course of it with an on the spot spanking. Bravo for her. I admire whatever skills she uses to do that. In some ways I wished that worked for us too. But as I have said, the emotions are just too strong
Guilt and shame are separate albeit interrelated emotions. Its nearly impossible to feel shame without some guilt; but the inverse is not the same. I Have felt guilt without shame Of the two emotions, shame is the strongest in motivating behavior but also the most dangerous as it can produce negative destructive emotions. Culturally shame is a construct evolved to produce social control. It can also add to a wife's control used intelligently.
Alan
CORRECTION --"immediate spanking in the wake of a full fledged spanking ..."Should read "in the wake of a full-fledged tantrum?
DeleteAlan, you make an interesting point about guilt versus shame. I think you are right that you can feel guilt without shame, but shame always involves some guilt. I think the reason is that guilt is a private emotion, whereas shame results from the public exposure of guilt, or from the fear of public exposure. For example, if I do something wrong, like tell a lie, and I get away with it, I feel guilt. On the other hand, if I get caught telling a lie, I feel shame. Shame involves public approbation and, as a consequence, there is an element of embarrassment or humiliation. Thus, public exposure transforms guilt to shame, and an embarrassing punishment like spanking heightens the feeling of shame, freeing you from lingering guilt.
DeleteBefore my wife and I had a FLR, she would get upset when I had a temper tantrum, but she couldn’t do much about it. She would tell me I was being childish, but I would dig in my heels and argue. The result is that we would both be pissed off. As I calmed down and my mind cleared, however, I would start to feel guilty about having behaved badly. But I would often be too proud to apologize, so I would feel lingering guilt, and she would feel lingering resentment. The FLR power exchange alters that dynamic. As soon as she invokes her power to spank me, I feel shame. And when she follows through and does it, my shame is heightened. The result is that DD expiates guilt on my side and reduces resentment on her side. My wife has never spanked me over multiple days. But I can imagine that if a woman was really upset with her partner’s behaviour, she might want to work out her emotions through multiple spankings.
Doug
Alan, maybe the reason my wife is able to break my temper tantrums with on-the-spot spankings has less to do with any skills she possesses and more to do with the different way you and I are wired. Doug
Delete
DeleteAlan, I agree completely. I am never spanked in the heat of the moment, but always after we have both cooled down. By that time my feelings of guilt have kicked in, and I need the punishment to wash them away. It’s all guilt though, I don’t think I’ve ever felt anything like shame. I can imagine that a man finding himself naked over a woman’s knee could, in some circumstances be humiliating - definitely a negative emotion, I think in a good DD FLR relationship, it just feels like a reinforcement of the order of things and is a positive one. TG
Not to quibble, but is it really true that shame always necessarily includes guilt? It seems like many of our institutions and society in general is pretty good at imposing shame on things we don't necessarily feel any guilt about. In fact, isn't DD the perfect example? Some might feel shamed if our participation in DD or FLR were to be made public, and many "vanilla" friends and relatives might try to make us feel ashamed of it, and they might succeed. But, do we feel any guilt about it in the absence of such public shaming? I can speak only for myself, but I do not.
DeleteRegarding spanking in the heat of the moment, I agree with everything Alan says about it, though in his case it sounds like a conscious choice to avoid it. For us, I think that such a choice would be wise but, honestly, it's more a result of Anne almost never thinking about it as an option when she is super pissed off. That just isn't where her mind goes.
Delete“ Not to quibble, but is it really true that shame always necessarily includes guilt? It seems like many of our institutions and society in general is pretty good at imposing shame on things we don't necessarily feel any guilt about.”
DeleteThat’s a good point, Dan. I think that instead of “always” I should have said “often” or “sometimes”. It is true that I feel shame about some things, like being spanked, that there is no reason to feel guilty about. I guess I also need to amend my idea about shame being a public emotion. It is possible to feel shame about secret aspects of our lives, though I suppose the sense of shame may come from imagining how we would feel IF our secret was revealed.
Doug
It's probably a matter of semantics, but I'm not sure that guilt and shame are distinguishable if internally generated. I agree that shame seems to have an inherently public aspect; we feel shame in relation to some public view on our actions. Guilt, on the other hand, is internally generated. If we feel we have done something wrong--independent of anyone else's views about it--that is what I would call guilt but it could also be called being shamed. To me, those are one and the same thing. On the other hand, society or those around me could make, or try to make, me feel shame about something that I would feel perfectly fine with absent that condemnation by someone else or by society at large.
DeleteDan, I think you are right that in the way most people use the words, shame and guilt aren’t distinguishable. But I heard an interesting discussion on a psychology podcast today on digs between the words as defined by psychologists. Basically, they said that guilt focuses on the misdeed one feels guilty about, whereas shame focuses on the person. One would “feel guilty about doing x.” Doing not being. But with shame, one could say, “I’m ashamed of myself.” According to the psychologist in the podcast, shame can be more psychological harmful than guilt because it can contribute to low self esteem and anxiety. Public shaming can be a powerful tool of social control because it affects a person’s sense of self worth. Thinking about this, I think my wife, whether consciously or instinctively, uses shame as an effective element of discipline and control. When she scolds before or during a spanking, she will tell me I should feel ashamed or ask “Aren’t you ashamed of yourself?”
DeleteFor me, however, shame also evokes erotic feelings. On the other hand, there is for me nothing erotic about guilt. So that’s another difference for me.
Doug
Doug, it's an interesting distinction, though to me it seems to have some issues, because if I feel guilty about an act I did, I feel guilty that *I* did the act and I feel that the fact I did that act (or didn't do something I should have) reflects on me as a person. My acts originate with me, so it's hard for me to separate the act from my person in a meaningful way.
DeleteDan, I had the same thought as you. I think the distinction is a generalization that doesn’t neatly cover every situation or every personality. I think a psychologist would ask whether you have ways of dealing with guilt for bad things you have done that don’t damage your long term self esteem. If you reflect on things you have done that have made you feel guilty at various points in your life, does that damage your sense of self worth? In a DD context, if your wife spanks you for something like a childish display of temper, does accepting the consequence for your behaviour allow your sense of self worth to rebound? Or do you have lasting feelings of shame that can’t be completely spanked away? You can expiate guilt for something you have done, but not for something you are. I think I am excessively prone to shame, as defined by that psychologist. That’s why I struggle with feelings of low self esteem and anxiety serious enough to warrant psychotherapy.
DeleteDoug
Alan, congrats to you and your wife for figuring out how to manage your temper. My GF has not had to deal with me being snippy with her, as it just doesn't happen. We haven't argued much, and she has learned to stop any argument simply by saying "Are you arguing with me?" By asking me that, she is letting me know that if I persist, I am in for an immediate spanking. The main issue I had was, when I lost things, I would get irrational, which falls into the category of childish behavior. She soon learned that by giving me a hard spanking, I would calm down. These days I go slower, and don't tend to loose things as often. When I do, I try not to react immediately, and it helps knowing that if I do, I absolutely will get a spanking.
ReplyDelete“. The main issue I had was, when I lost things, I would get irrational, which falls into the category of childish behavior. She soon learned that by giving me a hard spanking, I would calm down.”
DeleteSame here, Norton! Becoming irrational from the frustration of being unable to find something when I need it has probably been the #1 cause of spankings for me. I get really wound up sometimes. Then my wife will tell me to calm down and think, telling me that “It is wherever you put it.” That would get me going even more. Like you, I would be calmed down by a spanking because it would make me see how childish I was being. She spanks me especially hard when she breaks off whatever she is doing and finds the thing herself. Especially if she finds it in some place I told her I already looked. That’s really embarrassing!
Doug
On that particular issue, for us it's kind of the opposite. Anne is not a "everything in its place" person and frequently misplaces things. It's become a running joke that she looks and looks for something she's misplaced, then it generally takes me about 2 minutes to find it for her.
DeleteBut, more generally, I very much get how the spanking is helpful in dealing with what is, at bottom, childishness. That's what I felt after I calmed down from my tantrum on the motorcycle ride -- childish. That's really the only appropriate word for it. I wasn't disappointed at myself for getting angry; the anger itself was more or less appropriate. But, it was out of proportion to the issue, and it was directed at something that I had no influence over at all so, ultimately, it was completely pointless.
Norton, a question: does she spank you immediately or after you have calmed down. Immediate seems like it would be the most straightforward and easiest way to deal with it. But my wife tried that and it never worked for us. I am just wondering if your wife has figured it out somehow and if so, how does she do it?
DeleteAlan
Alan, the answer is yes, she spanks immediately, which has the effect of calming me down immediately. After loosing my wallet a few times, she told me I would get a disciplinary spanking if I lost it again, which I never did. To me, it seems that an immediate spanking is appropriate for any childish behavior. This plays into the maternal aspects of spanking and F/M DD. Another topic which may be worth exploring is when does a spanking push you past your comfortable limits, resulting in you making lots of noise and moving around? That very rarely happens with me, but yesterday, after a break from DD, I received such a spanking. What was different than other spankings was that she spanked hard and non stop, right out of the gate, and continued for at least 2 minutes. Later, I complimented her on how effective that was. It seemed much more effective than spanking with frequent breaks for talking.
DeleteNorton, it is interesting that the mere threat of a spanking can change absentminded or careless behavior, like losing keys.
DeleteI would like to see Anne take a stronger line on any childish behavior like the tantrum I described in this post. But, subject to Alan's observations about the issue with doing it immediately, when I'm still very riled up. For me, it would be better to wait until I've settled down. Though, in my case, my temper tends to flare quickly but also burn itself out quickly. So, she wouldn't have to wait long -- hours not days.
Dan, if I was in such a state as you describe, she only needs to ask "do you need a spanking?" which will get my attention and alter my frame of mind immediately. If I
Deletewas honest, the answer would certainly be yes. Should I keep going, the next words from her would be "pull down your pants and get over my knee - now!" No matter how worked up I may be, she knows I will comply.
Me too Norton! In our rather lax DD relationship, I get "do you need a spanking?" far more often than I'm actually spanked. There is something deeply ingrained in my pysche which means that those words basically act like a Hard Reset on a computer... I stop what I'm doing immediately. Sometimes I'm spanked later for it, but I never say yes, and I never continue with the behaviour that prompted the question. I'd like to check if she would by continuing sometimes, but I just can't do it (and I'm sure that she would actually spank...).
DeleteNorton and Merk, I am like you. The mere threat of a spanking is often enough to subdue me. Merk, I like your analogy of a hard reset on a computer. My wife’s phrasing of the question is, “Do I have to spank you?” I suppose my wife sometimes threatens to spank me in public because she knows the threat itself is effective. She might say, “Do I have to spank you right here? Don’t think I won’t do it.” Obviously, I don’t think she would do it. But what I think and how it makes me feel are disconnected. On some level, I take the threat seriously. Maybe that’s an irrational throwback to childhood, when the threat was credible.
DeleteDoug
Thinking about these “threats”, it's surprising we have not discussed them more. They probably comprise a high proportion of discipline in the average DD relationship, more than a few years old. I am estimating about this, but I do estimate that for every punishment spanking I receive, there are at least five or six threats or warnings. And they do work . Other than temper, discussed earlier, she can back me down almost every time by the proverbial “do you need a spanking or do I need to text Ann ( her sister). These warnings from her are credible- she rarely threatens without backing it up. And they have the effect on me of eroticizing discipline without the physical and emotional turmoil of actually being spanked. My premise is that most women in a DD relationship have found out how effective spanking can be -but would rather not need to spank if she can achieve her objective (obedience and harmony) without spanking. Hence, the frequency of threats and warnings. Am I right about this, or is my experience not the norm?
DeleteAlan
Alan, I had the same reaction. I did do a full topic on threats a few years ago, and it garnered moderate interest at most. But, I can try to do a full topic on it again.
DeleteFor us, I would say threats are a small but growing proportion of discipline. And, in our case, they are become more proactive than reactive. We had a situation recently in which Anne called to proactively warn me that I would be spanked in a situation that, in my opinion, was very unlikely to lead to any real behavior problem on my part. But, she felt strongly enough about it to try to head it off at the pass.
It does seem like threats can get the same job done as a spanking in many cases, without the kind of time and attention commitment that a spanking requires. Does it scratch the same itch? I would say, not quite, but close. There are times that I definitely need and want that next step of delivering on an actual spanking, not the threat of a spanking. But, I do see stronger verbal strictness as a very big step forward in our DD relationship. As you say, it eroticizes discipline. It also pushes my "maternal" buttons, as I associate maternal discipline with lots of verbal warnings about what will happen if one doesn't behave.
Alan: I may have missed some "back-story" from years past, but how is your wife calling [her sister] Anne a disciplinary or aversive threat that corrects your behavior?
DeleteI had the same question as Donn.
DeleteDonn,
DeleteSome years ago, her sister became interested in introducing disciplinary spanking to her marriage. Subsequently she ( Ann) has witnessed several disciplinary spankings I received. Her husband (the “dope”) repulsed her efforts to try spanking in their marriage, She is still interested in spanking, but is no longer with him, and so far she has no permanent partner. Before she saw me spanked, having a witness was a fantasy. I am glad for the experience, but not eager to do it again, and my wife knows that. Ironically, one reason I am not keen to repeat the experience is that since she first witnessed me spanked, we have become good friends, and I really don’t want her to know I am getting a spanking.
Alan
I would say that punishment for “temper, irritability, or attitude” have accounted for over 90 % of spankings from my wife over the years. Sometimes it could be something like frustration with some home repair that would get me swearing. Then she would tell me to cool it, and I would argue with her that since I wasn’t swearing or yelling at her, it shouldn’t bother her. Then she would say “well, it does bother me, so stop it.” Then I would stupidly continue to argue that my bad mood was my business. The argument would come to a halt when she would say, “That’s it. Go to the bedroom and take your pants down. You obviously need a spanking.” I have sometimes been spanked after failing to do something to her satisfaction, but more often the spankings resulted from my being argumentative when she criticized me.
ReplyDeleteMy wife has always tended to spank spontaneously in the moment she decides she’s had enough of my attitude, so punishment is rarely delayed. There have been a couple of occasions when spankings had to be delayed until we got home, for temper behind the wheel, for example. Sometimes, however, she would threaten she was going to make me pull over for a roadside spanking. Even though I didn’t think she would or could really do that, the threat would generally be enough to curb my immature behaviour.
In general, if she couldn’t spank me in the moment I annoyed her, she would forget about it…temporarily. I say temporarily because the next time my attitude annoyed her when we were at home, she would suddenly remember all the things she had seemingly let slide. In that case, it might take some fairly minor display of irritability to bring her to a spontaneous tipping point, resulting in a command to go to the bedroom and wait for her with my pants down.
I have never been spanked for behaviour my wife hasn’t witnessed herself. That’s probably because if she doesn’t witness it, it doesn’t affect her mood. Unlike some of you guys, I have never had any say in the behaviours or unmet goals for which I would be spanked. That’s probably why attitude adjustment, rather than failure to meet goals, accounts for most of the spankings I have received.
Doug
To me, getting spanked for voicing frustration while doing repair work on something should be in bounds, because (a) the way I voice that frustration can be pretty juvenile, and sometimes it includes getting snippy with her; and (b) when I'm in a temper flare like that, I'm very likely to screw something up by trying to brute force it, which often turns a small project into a major problem.
DeleteA threat of a roadside spanking would not be wholly incredible in our case, because on the rare occasions when we're driving together and she is not driving (I like reading when in a car, so she handles most of our drives together) we are in our van, which would be easy to pull over anywhere, pull the shades down, and take care of business. She hasn't actually threatened to do that, but she did threaten one day when I was driving too fast (in her opinion), she told me that if I got a ticket she would spank me every day for a week.
Dan, I have a feeling that if we had a van like yours, my wife would have done more than threaten roadside spankings. Doug
DeleteDoug wrote: “ Unlike some of you guys, I have never had any say in the behaviours or unmet goals for which I would be spanked.”
ReplyDeleteI get your frustration about this. And I do believe that a couple, at some point, should reach consensus on the scope of discipline in their relationship. Common goals are the most powerful and most likely to be accomplished. That said, however, a woman spanking for things that matter only to her is a very sound basis for real DD. I think there is room for both her rules and mutual rules in a DD relationship. But when my wife spanks for things that mainly or exclusively matter to her, I feel most strongly the power exchange that fuels female-led DD.
Alan
Alan, I think that some couples have DD without FLR. In such a relationship, I think the couple would negotiate as equals on the goals and methods of discipline. Then there are couples who are moved towards FLR by the practice of DD. FLR probably exists on a spectrum. I think that my marriage is a full blown FLR, which means that I have very little say in the way my wife chooses to discipline me…or not. That feels frustrating at times. But I suppose I am more deeply submissive and masochistic than most guys here, so even frustration can seem like an aspect of erotic power exchange. However, I would be dishonest if I pretended that my submissive state doesn’t entail inner conflict and struggles with self esteem.
DeleteDoug
Alan, I am in a relationship which has DD but we are not in an FLR. Spankings I get for things she really cares about are inevitably more intense. The main one that affects her is my driving, but in the past, it was also my alcohol consumption. We are completely in agreement with our goals r.e. DD in our relationship. The spankings for most childish behavior are no longer necessary, as I am pretty much cured of acting out like that.
DeleteDoug, would you mind expounding on how your submissive state entails inner conflict and struggles with self esteem? I find the psychological effects of being submissive/dominant/or even in between fascinating
DeleteMiss E, I will try to give you a brief answer to a question I find complicated. Although I have had a fairly successful life, providing a decent middle class lifestyle for my family, I have always suffered bouts of anxiety and low self esteem. Exploring the reason in therapy, I have come to believe that childhood corporal punishment may be a root cause of both my low self esteem and my sexual masochism. It could be that I eroticized the pain and sexual humiliation of spanking as a psychological coping mechanism. That would mean that I eroticized a source of low self esteem. Some years ago, I read a piece of advice from a woman to other women on a wife led marriage website. To paraphrase her, she said, if your husband is the type of submissive man who wants you to wear the pants, he will probably want you to spank him too. But spanking is a humiliating form of punishment that damages self esteem, and male submissiveness often stems from low self esteem. Therefore, spanking him could do further psychological damage. I don’t know whether her generalization about male submissiveness and low self esteem is accurate, but it hit a nerve with me, and I still think about it.
DeleteMasochism is paradoxical. Some people think that masochists don’t feel pain or humiliation the way normal people do. For me, that’s not true. Spankings hurt me as much as any normal person, and I am acutely sensitive to the humiliation of being disciplined like a child by my wife. It’s emasculating. I guess it’s supposed to be. Hence the expression, “She wears the pants.” My wife does wear the pants, and I do feel emasculated. That is, for me, a source of both erotic excitement and shame. That’s one kind of inner conflict. And I suppose shame affects self esteem, even if it is sexually exciting.
At some point, I internalized the FLR power exchange to the point that my wife truly became my superior. So when it comes to DD, my wife calls the shots. Related to that, early in our FLR my wife became quite selfish in the bedroom. I won’t go into detail because that’s beyond the scope of Dan’s blog. I will just say that her pleasure became central, while I had unfulfilled cravings and frustrations. Sometimes I feels resentment about that. But another part of me, the masochistic part, is turned on by sexual selfishness in women…and by my own sexual disempowerment.
Miss E., I don’t want to give the impression that I feel sorry for myself. I have complicated feelings about DD and FLR. Sometimes I wish I was a normal, red blooded man instead of a submissive masochist. On the other hand, I wonder whether I could have experienced the kind of intense erotic feelings that FLR has sometimes given me. I hope that makes sense. I’m trying to figure it out myself.
Doug
Miss E., I just thought of another way FLR and wife lead DD can affect self esteem. I am confident that my wife loves me. I think she agreed to having a FLR with DD because she loves me and agreed to that change in our marriage in order to preserve our marriage. But does she respect me as a man, when she’s the one who wears the pants? I mean, love and respect are separable, aren’t they? If I sometimes feel emasculated by our power dynamic, might she not also see me as emasculated? As less than a “real man”? It is well known from surveys of sexual attitudes that most women see submissiveness as an unattractive characteristic in a man. And I have seen online discussions of female led DD in which women have commented that they could never respect any man they could spank. I have on occasion confessed to my wife that I worry I might not be the kind of husband she can respect, and that she might not have married me if she knew how I was going to turn out years into our marriage. She always replies, “Don’t be silly.” Then she will tell me that she sees positive qualities in me, like that I am “smart and kind and funny.” But what else would a woman committed to her marriage say to her husband? If she was discussing her feelings confidentially with a psychotherapist, or her closest friend, I bet her feelings about me would be a lot more complicated than “don’t be silly.” I may be overthinking this. But I can’t help it. And it sometimes overwhelms my fragile sense of self esteem.
DeleteDoug
Women like men's submissiveness towards them, but not submissiveness towards other men. The basis of sexual selection is two parts, intrasexual selection (between males when they confront each other), and intersexual selection (when the male serves the female and dances the mating dance, courtship rituals).
DeleteI have been reading FLR sites and discussions for a long time and most women like to punish men physically. Even ordinary women punish men with slaps and cuffs.
Aptëm wrote: “Women like men's submissiveness towards them, but not submissiveness towards other men.”
DeleteI don’t think that generalization applies to the majority of women. The second part is undoubtedly true about most women. But I don’t think most women want men to be submissive to them either. I think they want men to be respectful and courteous, maybe even chivalrous, but not submissive. Nor do I believe that most women like to punish men physically. I don’t think the small number of women who post on FLR websites are representative of the general population.
Doug
Maybe it depends on the culture, but in Russia I often see women slapping or kicking men. And they often brag to their friends that they make their boyfriends listen to them (he's under my thumb).
DeleteEven between men you can often hear horror stories about how they're afraid of their girlfriends. As you know, there's a grain of truth in every joke.
Aptëm, there are undoubtedly differences in gender relations between different cultures. The stereotype about Russia here in the west is that it is a very patriarchal society in which women haven’t attained the kind of equality they have here. In fact, some social conservatives who are trying to roll back the achievements of feminists in North America see Russia as a model for traditional gender roles we need to bring back. Maybe those stereotypes about Russia are wrong. However, I would point out that a woman slapping a man is very different from the premeditated, sustained discipline of a spanking. That kind of spontaneous lashing out, which was more common here in pre-feminist times, could be an expression of impotent frustration rather than empowerment.
DeleteDoug
One of my parents began her career specializing (Ph.D) in Russian history and culture.
DeleteThat parent's interest has long driven a higher interest in myself toward Russian (and Slavic) history and culture.
There is a Slavic phrase (similar phrases exist in other, similar Eastern European cultures) that I believes reveals deeper, more interesting elements of Slavic family life and dynamics:
"The Husband is the [public] Head of the family; the Wife is the Neck that directs and controls the Head!"
A phrase that has existed for a very long time in these cultures!
(Not to minimize the very real and excessive levels of male-on-female domestic violence that occurs in too many Russian families.)
In my further experience and observations, I've always been quite surprised by the extremely high percentages of women (even older women) who wear extensive black leather and high stiletto boots when they dress to go out "clubbing" in many Russia cities (e.g., Moscow, St. Petersburg). Dressing in ways that would instantly create the impression of a dominatrix going out to a BDSM club if they were observed here in North America.
Since "ZM" currently lives in an Eastern European country with significant Slavic roots, maybe he could supply some personal and "up-close" perspective on the ranges of such sub-rosa FLR beliefs in such cultures?
This is very strange. It is probably because people in the West are generally poorly educated about the world around them. Russia is a much less patriarchal society than the US. We have a higher percentage of working women than the US and many more women in government and civil servants. For a long time now, Russia has had the highest percentage of female judges in the world. We also have the highest percentage of female managers. Women's emancipation began much earlier here than in the West. With the exception of some Islamic regions, Russia is not religious (especially compared to the US). American conservatives are strange. What traditional gender roles do they think exist in Russia? There are more working women here, there is a state-mandated vacation, and a system of alimony under which a man must not only pay a woman child support after a divorce, but also pay her mortgage on an apartment if it is the only home the mother and child live in. The US is a more conservative society in all respects. Traditional gender roles are a working husband and a housewife wife. There are many more such couples in America than in Russia. In fact, housewives disappeared as a class in Russia in the 1930s. I swear, I can't understand the logic behind the stereotypes about Russia in your country. A couple of years ago, I saw some Americans discussing on Twitter that their government wanted to take away their guns and force them to vaccinate, and that they would probably have to move to Russia. At that time, I couldn't understand the logic at all, if in Russia the gun laws are much stricter and vaccination is practically mandatory. This is such a strange unwillingness to study anything outside of where a person lives, I rarely see it, but when I do, it's almost always an American/Canadian/Australian. Traditional gender roles can remain only in the Islamic republics of Russia. But they are also actively dying out.
DeleteThat’s interesting, Aptëm. Thanks for that correction of the stereotype. Was your initial comment based on Russian language FLR websites? Do more women post to FLR websites in Russia than here in North America?
DeleteDoug
Well, in Russia it's not formalized as FLR. It's just called Femdom.
DeleteAptëm, does that mean that you wouldn’t distinguish between a dominatrix and a wife who administers domestic discipline, i.e., a distinction between BDSM and DD? Maybe Russians are just kinkier than North Americans? Donn observed that lots of Russian women dress with a sort of dominatrix look to go to clubs. Maybe Russians are more openly in to BDSM than people here are.
DeleteDoug
It's hard to say. It's more likely that our family way of life has long been similar to FLR. It's hard to tell the difference between soft FLR and a regular family.
DeleteSo when spanking and other manifestations of female dominance are added, it's already BDSM.
P.S. Digressing from the topic of discussion, I wanted to ask you have watched the Korean film "Love on a Leash"? I think it is the best film about BDSM (Femdom). And could you suggest an anime with a femdom theme? I know from anime this is Akame ga Kill, Triplexaholic, Young Masochists, Prison School and Occult Academy.
Do you get punished for temper, irritability, or bad attitude? That is all I am punished for. My wife sees DD as a relationship management tool and has only ever used it to punish something that directly affects her and our relationship.
ReplyDeleteWhat situations are most likely to trigger the problem? Any rudeness, sarcasm or bad temper directed in any way towards her. I am generally relaxed, mild mannered but very focussed. I like people to 'get to the point' quickly and efficiently - my wife like to multi-task, talk about multiple topics and inject story when all I want are the facts! As can be imagined this has tested my patience on many occasions with predictable results since we embarked (I suggested) DD many years ago.
How promptly and how diligently is it addressed? Most often she will wait until I have completely calmed down (usually the next morning) and then she will raise the ' we need to have a little chat' flag which is a euphemism for the strap coming out. Those occasions where she has reacted immediately have been most memorable but she prefers to start the day with a reckoning if required. She says that she likes me to feel the effects of the lesson through the day and that I am more compliant when I am a bit sore.
Does your wife correct you for it only if it’s something she witnesses? Definitely. I have never been punished for something that she has not personally witnessed and been at the receiving end of.
How successful has it been in getting you to think and back down before a temper tantrum occurs or you vent your irritability or bad attitude? This is really interesting as we had a real 'heart to heart' about this a couple of months ago. She has persuaded me that almost all the disquiet in our relationship is down to my temper. Whether I agree or not, I have agreed. With that in mind I have been making a concerted effort to restrain any external evidence of temper, keeping my voice controlled at all times, etc. We have agreed that if there is ANY dispute that I will receive a spanking, following her theory that it is my attitude that either causes or escalates. That has had a powerful effect (not quite 100% successful - yet) on my behaviour. I am restraining myself more often, given the certainty of punishment if I don't. I am still struggling with those situations where I am clearly 'right' as it feels like my disagreeing with her calmly can cause her to become more irate. I find it impossible to simply agree in those situations. TB
TB, that's an interesting dynamic, to simply assume that any disagreement is a result of your temper and on you to restrain it. I'm sure feelings of "unfairness" could easily arise, yet it sounds like, on balance, it also works as a relationship tool.
DeleteI have the same conflict between Anne's communication style and my desire for people to get to the point. If I ask what time it is, I don't want to be told how to build a clock. When she tells a story, I tend to get not just the main point but also all the details about every participant, who they are, the fact that he or she is a "lovely" person or not a lovely person, etc. All the while, I'm standing there biting my tongue and asking myself whether there is a point to this somewhere in my future.
Haha! That’s a great respond i hope for your sake that she doesn’t read it!! I could have written exactly the same. Many is the time I have uttered those fateful words ‘Are you ever going to get to the point?’, many is the time that I have ultimately paid for my impatience…! TB
DeleteMy wife has a similar communication style to Anne' Dan which explains why I tend to lose patience and interrupt, or even take over her story which has landed me in trouble many times.
DeleteAfter enough reminders with her paddle I tend to be a tad more patient now , but it still drives me nuts!
We have returned from a long relaxing trip to Europe which was the highlight of our travel experiences. My wife and I travel a lot, but if you have never rented a car to travel through France or Italy. You should. The countries are breathtakingly beautiful. They are like nothing I’ve ever experienced in our country. How perfect Dans topic fits into part of our trip. I coordinated a group of 16 people to head overseas for the first week or so of the trip. If you have not done that before, take my advice and don’t ever do it. After giving our group tons of information, I found that no one took the time to research anything. I sent links and bla, bla, bla, and no one looked at any of them. It was a shame, because when we arrived in a certain spot, everyone
ReplyDeletejust looked to me. I became extremely stressed, because I just wanted everyone to have a great time. They did without any major issues. Minor issues as getting everyone together at a time to leave ect. I did a good job of controlling my attitude and anger. One day, a lady in our group snapped at me for something I had no control over at all. I responded, if you could do better, you book it next time. My wife immediately gave me the look. We continued our day, she pulled me aside, and said I owe the women an apology. When we leave on our own, the first thing I’m going to do is give you such a strapping that you will find it very uncomfortable for you to sit. She was direct and to the point. She agreed with her being a DB, but I should have answered her in a different way, as she had never been there before. I agreed with my wife and later on said to the lady, sorry if I came across that way, I’m a bit stressed. She understood and the trip was memorable for all. I received tons of texts, but will never do it again!! I give kudos to those who plan trips for groups of 30 to 40 and do it with ease.
T
For the second part of our trip we were solo. Much less stress and I can’t reiterate how beautiful these countries are. You won’t find some of the views on a tour. We arrived at our rental and were unpacking. My wife said, well I haven’t forgotten and let’s get this over with. Go get me the strap. I was exhausted and said can we do it after. She said no, go get me the strap, you will learn a valuable lesson today. I developed goose bumps. I handed her the belt and she asked me why am I getting spanked. I replied my attitude and my response to our friend. She stated, you are correct young man. You will bend over and I’m going to punish you severely. She was much more direct than ever. Like someone stated above, she laid into me with vigor. I had a hard time staying still. I told her I had enough and she said no you haven’t, we have just begun. It was the longest strapping I have ever received. I was sweating and could barely stay still. She got the back of my legs a few times and said, well too bad you shouldn’t be moving.
DeleteWhen finished I apologized about my attitude. She forgave me. Later on she asked how
Deletemy bottom was, I responded very sore. She said good, it seems to be the only way I get through to you. After some wine, I reiterated my love and thanked her for punishing me. I hoped that moving forward she would correct this behavior more often at home. She stated, don’t you worry young man, it’s the only way you seem to learn. I was spanked once more on vacation for my anger at a driver. It was not as hard, but she corrected it spot on. She also threatened me at a restaurant. I was upset about something and she said, do I need to get the belt? I said no love of course not. Then snap out of it and enjoy the night. I did and the rest of the night was wonderful. Very interesting that I came back into the perfect topic
for DD. That is usually what she punishes for anyway.
T
I hate to admit it, but I'm often the one mooching off someone else's travel planning. At heart, I'm just not a planner. Left to my own devices, I'd just get a wild hair one morning, jump in our van and go somewhere. But I do get that it's tough to be the planner, so on recent motorcycle trips I've tried to assume at least part of the burden, like planning and booking hotels. I do appreciate the effort of those who take on the primary planning burden.
DeleteHonestly, I probably would have reacted to the woman the same way you did.
I like your wife's frequent use of "young man"
Dan,
DeleteI’m definitely the planner of the two of us. I said to her one time, why don’t you take the lead and plan a trip. Her response, why you’ve never screwed anything up and everything you plan is more, than I ever could think of. I took a step back and realized, wow I guess I’m pretty good at it. As for the young man, yes she’s been much better at scolding and reprimanding. She’s been very maternal in this and it’s what I need anyway. A way to take me down a peg or two immediately. When she uses that tone, I immediately pipe down and change my tune. She says DD is an equalizer. We talked briefly about a weekly checkin moving forward as well. It came up after a punishment on vacation. I think it would help her stay on course with our DD. I just don’t want it to be punishment or lack there of, for the “sake”.
T
We're definitely the opposite. She plans trips, while I push that we should just jump in the van with a very loose timeline and destination in mind and just let things play out. The funny thing is, she finally tried it my way a couple of years ago and, while it drove her nuts not having a plan, she admitted that it actually worked out pretty well and was fun just deciding each day where we were going to go and what we were going to do. And, we ended up seeing one sight that wouldn't have been on either of our lists had we planned something, but it turned out to be the high point of the entire trip.
DeleteMost of my spankings have been for attitude or temper. I can relate to being annoyed when she gives me something to do or interrupts me when I'm doing something else. After back to back days being paddled. I finally straightened up and until a couple of days ago. I escaped what had become too routine a nightly spanking. I really have kept my attitude in check until one morning while laying in bed she told me about something she wanted from me and I became defiant repeatedly saying no. She told me to get up and go get the paddle. I said no! She became adamant that I better obey. I gave in and fetched the paddle. She spanked me repeatedly asking who was the boss until I submitted to her it really stung and I was submissive the rest of the day. However, I have been struggling emotionally with some issues and sometimes I think a good hard spanking is exactly what I need to maintain control of my sanity.
ReplyDeleteHoly mackerel, Ward! I can’t imagine openly defying my wife that way! I have internalized the FLR power dynamic to a degree that such defiance would be unthinkable. Do you suppose that you were provoking harsh discipline because spanking has therapeutic value for you in dealing with unrelated emotional struggles?
DeleteLike you, I also have emotional struggles that may or may not be related to my craving for discipline. I am seeing a psychotherapist about that. But I have noticed that some professional disciplinarians these days advertise “spanking therapy” as a service they offer. I sometimes wonder whether spanking could be recognized as a legitimate form of psychotherapy on a paar with talk therapy. Or in combination with it.
Doug
Ward, that sounds like a pretty healthy dynamic to me. You rebelled, which can happen. We're humans. Yet, your wife took that head on and asserted her authority, refusing to let you undermine the overall dynamic.
DeleteI don't think I've ever full-out rebelled, but it's come close a few times, when I felt like she was crossing some lines, like censoring how I talked to others. Yet, looking back, she probably was right, and what I was rebelling against was DD and FLR actually putting some *real* limits on me, i.e. limiting things I wasn't fully onboard with anyway. It's all well and good to use DD and FLR to reinforce something you want anyway. It's a different ballgame entirely when she uses her authority to take things in a direction that causes you to genuinely balk.
Doug, I wonder whether those people are licensed therapists? I would think that a licensed therapist might be placing their license at risk offering spanking as therapy. But, I'm not a therapist or psychologist and don't know what their ethical rules and licensing authorities would have to say about it.
DeleteDan, I’m pretty sure that the professional disciplinarians who offer “therapeutic spanking” aren’t licensed psychotherapists. And I think you are right that any licensed psychotherapist or psychiatrist who spanked a client/patient would risk losing their accreditation or worse. I have read that spanking therapy is an actual form of experimental therapy in Russia, but I don’t know whether that is true. However, I think the experience of Ward and other people subject to DD raises the question about the possible therapeutic value of spanking, even if the sexual aspect of it makes it impossible for licensed mental health professionals to use. But then, I think it is widely recognized that sex itself can have therapeutic value within intimate relationships, isn’t it?
DeleteDoug
Ward and Doug,
DeleteBoth of your relationships are definitely FLR. I liked the idea of it early on and now not so much. My wife wants to correct my behavior with a serious strapping, but has no desire to lead a relationship whatsoever. As for your therapy Doug, I think it’s great that you’re seeing someone to assist you with your past issues. I can relate to what you stated about how much different it might be, if we were not spanked in youth and how that might affect a “vanilla” relationship today. The differences between you and I are, I’m not a submissive. I’m an alpha male who does male things. My wife makes me feel like a submissive child when she punishes me for exactly this weeks topics. I don’t have low self esteem, but can agree with I personally believe that my fetish came from being spanked throughout my grade school years. My last spanking came at puberty and wonder if that had anything to do with this infatuation. As far as how my wife feels about it. She says that thrashing me is our only equalizer in the relationship. I lead and handle most of the household issues. She can’t be bothered with finance, but must have everything in a certain place. She speaks highly of me to her friends and our DD never comes up in our group. Her response was what happens in our bedroom, stays in our bedroom. She was paddled as a child and had some issues dealing with it. I asked her if would affect her punishing me and she responded, it’s not my bottom taking the beating and you deserve it. It’s nice to see other people dealing with the same mental issues as you are and know that your not alone.
T
I would think "even licensed" therapists support and sometimes encourage clients in lifestyles that include adult spanking. Therapists that interact sexually with patients are almost certainly acting unethically, given the nature of therapy. They are failing their duty of care. But encouraging spanking or supporting it seems to me to be part of competent therapy for a client who is a spanko.. I believe that there is a phenomenon we could call "spanking therapy" -and husbands lucky enough to be under wife or girlfriends discipline receive that "therapy" when she spanks them. But unless your wife or girlfriend is a therapist,your therapist should not be spanking you. ( and if your wife or girlfriend is a therapist and spanks you, you should never buy another lottery ticket the rest of your life; your luck is all used up.
DeleteAlan
Doug, I don't really have any doubt that for some people it could have a therapeutic benefit. I kind of doubt it will ever be accepted as something a licensed therapist in the US could do, however. But, I wouldn't be surprised to see "coaches" offering it as a service, and since there seems to be very little difference between what a coach and a therapist can do . . .
DeleteT, I'm similar to you. While I can find my wife taking control to be very hot, that's usually in retrospect. In 99% of my life, I'm about as far from submissive as one can possibly be. Though, to me part of the attraction to DD has always been balancing that out, so I would retain the kind of "Alpha" demeanor that did play a role in my work success, while being able to accept legitimate authority, which I struggled with at work. Basically, I wanted to maintain my edge without constantly stepping on my own dick. It's less of an issue now that I don't have any authority to answer to other than my wife.
T, I can’t speak for Ward, but I am definitely in a FLR. I had been starting to think that I was no longer in a FLR and was no longer subject to DD, but my wife seems to be reasserting her authority since spanking me the other day. For example, while I was reading the news over a second cup of coffee this morning, we had the following exchange.
DeleteHer: what are your plans today?
Me: Um…I don’t know. I haven’t really made plans yet.
Her: Well, you have to clean the garage.
[I groaned inwardly because this is a big job I’ve been finding excuses to put off]
Me: Why did you ask me what my plans are when you already know what your plans for me are?
Her: I just want to make sure you know what you have to get done today.
Me: Okay. I’ll clean the garage.
Her: Good. There’s a lot to do, so I suggest you put down your tablet, finish your coffee, and get to it. Whatever is happening in the world doesn’t need your immediate attention. The garage does.
Me: [resisting an urge to rebel]. Okay.
My wife isn’t always this bossy. But she can be. I have mixed feelings about it. It annoys me sometimes. But it kind of turns me on too. And I feel a bit embarrassed about how I would look to people who aren’t in FLR’s.
Now, I better get back to work on the garage before my wife gets home from the hairdresser.
Doug
Dan,
DeleteI’m 100 percent like you, I find my wife bossing me around highly erotic, in retrospect of course. Doug, my wife is actually a procrastinator. She will find an excuse not to clean a closet. I’m more task driven than she is. I would probably have a heart attack if my wife told me to go clean the garage lol. I usually get mad or my attitude flares if something becomes unorganized. An example would be our spare closet and room.
It tends to become a dumping ground for her clutter. I find it irritating. I will be mad and upset and that’s when she will rail me
In. I wouldn’t be embarrassed by others thinking your wife is bossy. Some women are generally bossy and task orientated. My buddy always has to check with the “boss” before doing anything guy related. It’s not because they are in an FLR. He just states it keeps the peace lol.
I have another friend whose brother seems to be pulled around by the collar. They could be in an FLR, but I can’t stand to have a conversation with her and she is a stuck up bitch.
So I will never know lol. Have fun cleaning the garage. Ughh
T
"My wife isn’t always this bossy. But she can be. I have mixed feelings about it. It annoys me sometimes. But it kind of turns me on too. And I feel a bit embarrassed about how I would look to people who aren’t in FLR’s." - I too have mixed feelings when my wife is bossy. I am often annoyed by it at the time, but in retrospect it is always a big turn-on, particularly if she was more "commanding" in her tone and demeaner. Where I differ from you perhaps is that while I too feel embarrassed about how it might look to others if she is bossy with me in public, I also somehow crave that feeling of embarrassment. I wish she would take this further, particularly in front of those who actually know that she spanks me.
Delete-ZM
“Where I differ from you perhaps is that while I too feel embarrassed about how it might look to others if she is bossy with me in public, I also somehow crave that feeling of embarrassment. I wish she would take this further, particularly in front of those who actually know that she spanks me.”
DeleteZM, you don’t differ from me in that way. I also crave that feeling of embarrassment, even though I have always been hypersensitive to embarrassment in a way that isn’t pleasant. I think it is probably obvious to family and friends that my wife wears the pants, but I don’t know whether anyone suspects that she spanks me. Sometimes I wish she would just make that clear to everyone, even though it would embarrass me. There may be one couple with whom we sometimes travel who know. We were having dinner with them in a cottage we were sharing. We had all had a fair bit of wine. We weren’t drunk but were pleasantly buzzed and a bit disinhibited. I got a bit argumentative about something in a lighthearted way, and in a similar lighthearted tone my wife asked, “Do I have to spank you?” I don’t know whether my wife intended to out our DD to those old friends. I don’t think so. We were all tipsy, and I think it just slipped out. I was momentarily shocked, and I probably blushed. The other couple hooted with laughter and said, “Tell us more about THAT!” There was a moment of suspense for me, then my wife started to laugh. Then all four of us laughed and the moment passed and the conversation moved on. I don’t know whether our friends concluded that my wife said that as a joke or that it was a real threat. Most likely they would have concluded that my wife let slip that we were into erotic spanking, which is less embarrassing than real DD in my mind. In the moment, I was glad that my wife had turned aside our friends’ curiosity by laughing it off. But in the years since that incident, I have often wished that my wife had seized the opportunity to reveal that we had a FLR with real DD. I would have been embarrassed, but I think it might have been liberating to be outed to friends. I have often fantasized about my wife satisfying our friends’ curiosity by demonstrating how she disciplines me. What a lost opportunity, eh?
Doug
ZM, you and I are pretty alike in this (no surprise there, right?). The confident, commanding tone is a huge part of the turn-on. And, f she is bossing me in a direction I don't want to go, it can be annoying as hell at the time. But, I almost always look back on with some mix of appreciation, admiration and titillation. And, like you apparently, I'm not too concerned about public reactions. Especially if we're talking about strangers. It's odd, because I reacting extremely negatively to *others* being embarrassed or humiliated (I will skip past scenes in movies or shows that I know involve someone being embarrassed), yet I'm pretty immune to being embarrassed by what others think about me, and getting more so all the time. I've talked here before about an incident in which a scammer sent an email suggesting he had hacked my computer and found material he was going to distribute to my contacts. At the time, I went into a mini-panic, though I did get over it within a few hours. If that were to happen today, even if legit, I think I'd probably just tell them, "Go for it, and go fuck yourself." I'm not exactly eager to be outed as a DD recipient, but I don't think I'd care that much either, at least after the initial shock wore off.
DeleteDoug wrote: ..."my wife asked, “Do I have to spank you? ... The other couple hooted with laughter and said, “Tell us more about THAT!” There was a moment of suspense for me, then my wife started to laugh"
DeleteDoug,
She well may have told them more than you think. At the minimum, your friends strongly suspect erotic spanking. Since they are close friends who know you well, its not at all implausible they have figured it out. Commons like that do not go unnoticed
Alan
Alan
Alan, you could be right. Every time we get together, I always remember that incident and wonder what they made of it. I agree that they probably suspect we are into erotic spanking. The fact that they asked my wife to tell them more also makes me wonder whether they are into spanking. Based on the public aspects of their relationship, I would wager that if they are into DD, it is also female led.
DeleteDoug
I agree with Alan on this. She might have told them much more than you think, especially the wife (assuming the couple is married). Also, if they are close friends they probably have sensed the dynamic, even if they didn't realize it. This comment would likely help the pieces to fall into place. But one thing I would add, which could have some bearing on how your wife's comment was received, is your wife's personality and how edgy and funny she is. If she weren't in an FLR, is this the type of comment she might make? Either way, your friends would likely consider your wife's personality and their observations of the dynamic between you and your wife, and from there either would have disregarded the comment as a joke or had a new understanding of your relationship. My question to you is, has anything they have ever said or done since then given you even the slightest reason to believe that they might have taken the comment as serious? Several times I have written here about my best female friend (except for my wife of course) and how she knows at least somewhat about the control dynamic in our relationship, though I only jokingly alluded to spanking once. Several times since then, she has brought it up indirectly, so I expect that she doesn't know anything for sure, but probably is slightly curious about whether I was really joking or not.
Delete-ZM
-ZM
ZM, I wouldn’t say my wife is “edgy” when it comes to talking or joking about sexual things. She is pretty reserved in that way. So you are probably right that her comment about spanking me would have looked significant, even if it was a joke. Our relationship with this couple is based on my friendship with the husband, who is a buddy going back to high school days. But our wives have developed a relationship that is somewhat independent of the friendship of “the boys”. So it is possible that my wife and his wife could have talked more about what that comment hinted at. I don’t know.
DeleteZM, if your close female friend seems to be curious about whether you were only joking about spanking, aren’t you tempted to satisfy her curiosity? I would be.
Doug
"Do you get punished for temper, irritability, or bad attitude?" - yes, but it is generally not (never?) tied to a blow up or temper tantrum, even though I am prone to have those. Also, she has never spanked me due to disrespect, which is most surprising since 1) I am known to do that, and 2) it directly affects her.
ReplyDelete"What situations are most likely to trigger the problem?" - it is usually not tied to a particular episode, but rather it is grumpiness and negativity over an extended period. The only exceptions to this that I can think of are when I either got too harsh with our teenage boys or others. Even then, it was not a specific blow-up, but rather an accumulation over some period of days.
"How promptly and how diligently is it addressed?" - like most things in our DD - for different reasons we have discussed here many times - it is neither promptly nor diligently addressed. Enforcement is sporadic and delayed at best.
"Does your wife correct you for it only if it’s something she witnesses?" - So far!
"How successful has it been in getting you to think and back down before a temper tantrum occurs or you vent your irritability or bad attitude?" - As I said above, I have not really been spanked for temper tantrums, but rather more for extended periods of bad attitude. I think spanking generally gets me back on track pretty quickly, but I don't think we have had enough consistency on this to really change much longer term.
-ZM
"Also, she has never spanked me due to disrespect, which is most surprising since 1) I am known to do that, and 2) it directly affects her." Same here. I don't know that she's *never* done it, but it's been exceedingly rare. It puzzles me, but sometimes we're great advocates for everyone but ourselves, right? When I was practicing, I could be deadly committed to a client's cause, then I'd walk into a car dealership to buy a car and fold like a wet napkin.
DeleteI can think of one instance in which I got spanked for saying something harsh or snarky to one of our kids.
So true that it is often easier for us to advocate for everyone but ourselves. I am guessing that my wife already struggles with understanding how I could possibly want this. She has come to terms with it enough that she is able to spank me for things that ostensibly benefit me in some way, but struggles with feeling guilty if she uses it for her own benefit. But I am only guessing.
Delete-ZM
That's probably it -- I think Anne probably does still struggle a bit with why I would want this but it probably gives her less pause when she punishes for something that's not really only about her. I also think that, despite being into DD for over 20 years, when disrespect happens her mind just doesn't automatically go to punishing it with a spanking.
DeleteHello All!! A few comments and observations about this weeks topic and some of the comments….Being spanked for Disrespect, Irritability and Bad Attitude…In the end I would think most of the rules of our FLR’s/DD if written as mine are(it’s a dynamic list of about 30 behaviors including one rule that literally states “Any time for Any Reason.”) are centered around Disrespect, Bad Attitude and Irritability. Some of the rules in our FLR are Dishonesty, Argumentative, Raising voice, name calling(something I have not done since we started FLR two and a half years ago), and most of these and all the others can arguably be traced back to Disrespect, Irritability and Bad Attitude. I am rarely spanked in the moment. It’s only happened 3-4 times. I am not likely to want it again any time soon. The last time I had been argumentative (mildly I thought) when friends were over, and when they left I thought I would be held accountable, but She didn’t do anything. I pointed out that consistency and accountability were really important. BIG MISTAKE! It struck a nerve and She said, Ok you want it you’re going to get….go, go right now upstairs. She didn’t mess around. It went on long and hard. I thought the spanking was for being argumentative. The spanking was for goading her in to a spanking. She kept saying over and over…You are NOT in control. I am the leader in this relationship and I’ll spank when I want and as long and as hard as I want. The point is me goading her in to it was Disprespectful. It demonstrated a poor Attitude and it happened because I was Irritable over the lack of Consistency.
ReplyDeleteOn another subject I have learned some things about professional Disciplinarians that I will share. I am seeing a Therapist who is a certified sex therapist and who specializes in Non-Monogamy relationships(I am not in one. My wife and I are monogamous and she is quite vanilla in most ways). My therapist also has clients in FLR/DD. My therapist is also kinky. She’s perfect for me. During a session spanking came up and I asked if she knew any professional Disciplinarians and asked her opinion of sex worker licensed therapist and Disciplinarian licensed therapist. It really comes down to your state. Most states have clear lines about therapists also being sex workers with their clients, and it is against the rules. California is an exception and there are many such therapists there. My therapist did know of someone who is not a licensed therapist, but is an Adult Disciplinarian and Life coach. I have seen her twice, and found the experience to be intense and liberating, but without the intimate, prolonged lasting effect that happens when my wife spanks me. So I am not going to go back. In the end It didn’t do what I thought it would do. I thought my lack of control in curbing my drinking issues were because my wife wasn’t going hard enough or long enough. Trust me this professional went about as long and as hard as would be reasonably healthy for me to endure, and it had way less effect on me than when Lauren delivers her spanking. Why? I think because I don’t have a relationship with her. My wife and I have a beautiful marriage and love each other. After she spanks me I am filled with emotion and intimacy. None of that happens with the professional Disciplinarians. I am glad I tried it, but it is not effective Discipline for me.
I have very mixed feelings about treating complaints about inconsistency as a lack of respect for her discretion. At the end of the day, inconsistency IS a problem if DD is being used for behavior correction. Also, leadership comes with responsibilities. I just don't buy the "I'm the leader so I get do do (and not do) whatever I want" theory. On the other hand, we have had a few guys on here over the years who seemed to be kind of bottomless pits of need, and I can see how wives could get very tired of being pestered.
DeleteI've never been to a pro, but I suspect it wouldn't work for me, for all the reasons you state. And, for me it would probably be an option I'd think about only if I was no longer in my relationship with Anne and hadn't been able to establish a DD relationship with anyone else. Though, if that ever happened, I'd probably be more inclined to just let the whole DD thing drop.
Dan…I do not disagree with your comments above about inconsistency or “I’m the leader…” I did not mean either observation as an absolute, and Lauren certainly didn’t. She was using some hyperbole to make a point. When I’m not bent over our bed we mostly have a pretty equal dynamic. She almost always asks for my input on even small things like where to eat and who to spend time with and when. On bigger things we have agreed that she will always get my point of view and truly consider it before deciding. I am still the long term investment person. She has very little interest in it, and I love it. I am glad I went to the pro because it satisfied a strong curiosity. I only went the second time to be certain. If something happens to Lauren before me I will likely not enter in to another relationship. If I did I would prefer DD, but not a deal breaker, and I will not go to a professional again from the reasons I cited.
Delete"I am still the long term investment person. She has very little interest in it, and I love it." Same here. I am very into stock investing, and she has no interest at all. On the other hand, she handles our bank accounts, bill paying, etc.
DeleteDan: I don't know if you or Google spam-canned my post from a few minutes ago (only up / online for about 5 minutes).
ReplyDeleteI thought the post, while not directly on topic, responded to a couple of other recent posts here in this weeks discussion, and added an interesting perspective. If you personally spam-canned the post, could you enlighten me about any possible concerns?
-- Thanks!