Discipline yourself, and others won't need to. John Wooden
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.
Once again, before we get started, I would like to thank the female commenters who have recently joined us and to extend an invitation to all others who may be inclined to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We like having you around.
I hope you all had a great week. Mine seemed generally OK as I was going through it, but an outsider who isn’t into Domestic Discipline probably wouldn’t see it that way. In a rare event for us, I got two spankings in the same week. It was a consequence of two overlapping developments. Anne surprised me in ordering a spanking for something that I thought didn’t really merit one in light of the whole context. She also brought it up as I was leaving to take care of something that seemed a lot more important. I didn’t exactly refuse, but I certainly pushed back, and we got in an argument about it. She got angry and dismissed me without delivering the spanking. I ended up apologizing relatively soon afterward, and the next time we were together, I got the first hard spanking.
The other, related development involved getting our weekly check-ins back on track, including using the weekly reporting form I highlighted here a couple of weeks ago. When I filled out the form prior to our weekly session, I noted that the original misbehavior from earlier in the week had been addressed but the arguing/resisting had not. Honestly, I probably could have spared myself the second spanking that resulted, simply by not pointing out that the two were separate, serious offenses and should be dealt with separately. But, I was feeling contrite about the arguing and felt there should be consequences.
It's been quite a while since I’ve been spanked twice within a few days. In the past, I didn’t feel like the second spankings were all that much worse, but this time it really was. It definitely gave me an incentive to stop at—at most—one serious offense per week.
I thought we had a good discussion last week about the differences between DD and BDSM/Femdom, though I was a little surprised at how strong some of the views were. I feel like I need to be clear that I don’t personally have any problem with BDSM or its practitioners. Same with Femdom and Master-slave relationships. They just aren’t what this blog is about, and I do get irritated when some newcomers ignore the disclaimers at the top of the blog and the DD-oriented content, and come wading in with comments replete with a bunch of very BDSM-oriented vocabulary and themes. But, I do still credit people who are into BDSM with having the courage and freedom to explore their fantasies and give the finger to socially-imposed norms that might discourage such exploration.
As for this week’s topic, it comes from a suggestion Donn made a couple of weeks ago:
"How far outside your personal relationship with your wife does she extend her authority? In particular, what types of interactions with other people, third parties (not part of your immediate family) does your wife apply her "rules" and "expectations" for good behavior for? Verbal interactions with such outside people? Business interactions? Religious and moral affairs? Does your wife have some sort of broad standard, like "Never take unfair advantage of others," that she enforces for ALL of your behavior?”
I don’t really have a lot to contribute to this one, as the vast majority of my wife’s disciplinary authority is, in fact, exercised within the confines of our relationship. When I’m punished, it’s almost always for some behavior that affected mainly her, or some personal failing or rule-breaking that didn’t effect any third-parties.
There have been a few exceptions. A year or two ago, she got angry while we were out to dinner with another couple. She thought I was dominating the conversation. The other wife is a personal friend and the only mutual friend/acquaintance who knows about our DD relationship. The incident was notable for a couple of reasons. First, a day or two later it led to a very, very strong scolding followed by a hard spanking. Second, at the time of the spanking she revealed to me that during a private moment at dinner she had told our friend that she was pissed off at my behavior and intended to spank me for it.
There were a couple of times, a long time ago, that I was spanked for something I said to one of the kids that she thought was hurtful or rude.
I can think of only one time that any kind of business interaction resulted in a punishment. I left a very nasty message for a business acquaintance over something I thought (mistakenly) he had done during the course of a matter we were working on for different clients. I was both factually wrong and overly aggressive, though the guy was widely disliked in our professional community and my error was in-line with what many would have expected of him. I actually don’t remember whether Anne spanked me for it, but I have a very strong memory of her forcing me to call and apologize to him.
There has never been any call to punish me for something like taking unfair advantage of others. Same with things like being rude to waiters, waitresses, and other service providers. I don’t have any tolerance for people who behave that way and would never do it myself.
That’s about it for my personal experience on this topic. One question I would add to Donn’s: If your wife does extend her authority to your interactions with third-parties, does the punishment involve those third-parties in any way? For example, when I mistakenly accused the business acquaintance of bad behavior, my wife made me apologize directly to him, as he was the one I had wronged. When she thought I was dominating a dinner conversation, she brought that friend into it by telling her what she intended to do to me, knowing that the next time we saw that friend she (and perhaps her husband) would know I had been spanked. I recall being very self-conscious at our next get-together, because in being more careful about dominating the conversation, I knew that the friend might attribute my quieter demeanor to the spanking she had been told would happen.
And, of course, we’ve talked here multiple times about the fantasies some of us have regarding witnesses and some of us have assumed that it would be a much more emotionally powerful experience if a witness had been wronged in some way, such that the spanking was to correct or punish behavior that witness had experienced or been the victim of.
So, tell us about far the wife’s authority extends outside your personal relationship. If you’re willing, give some examples of how behavior toward third parties has resulted in being disciplined.
Have a great week
My wife and I hosted a few friends for a dinner party on Friday. It was a friends birthday. I, the chef created quite the spread, but became aggravated at a few missteps. I took it out on my wife and made a few stupid comments which I quickly regretted, My wife didn’t skip a beat and said, apparently it’s been way too long since your last thrashing. The guests arrived and my wife quickly went into host mode. During dinner and some libations, one our friends had a spat with their wife during the week. My wife didn’t skip a beat and said us as well. She then said, he will pay for it tomorrow. Of course everyone laughed but me. The subject changed. Yesterday, I ran some errands and received a text, to come to the bedroom. I arrived and the strap was laid out. A severe thrashing was delivered and I promised to watch my mouth in the future. My wife will be leaving for a business trip before weeks end and promised another one. As far as third parties go, the only incident that occurred, when I was rude to someone on vacation in the islands. Although it was warranted, my wife didn’t seem to think so. A female security guard overheard the interaction and told my wife I needed a whipping. My wife didn’t skip a beat and said, when I’m done he won’t be sitting comfortably. She smiled and said good, he needs it. Other than that, we always treat food servers, and everyone with the same level of respect they give us. We just returned from a resort and it’s amazing how many people are rude and ignorant to the staff. I mean your on vacation why be miserable.
ReplyDeleteT
We don't host parties often, but on the rare occasion when we do I do find cooking and making sure others have everything they need stresses me out and can bring out some snippy comments to Anne.
DeleteWe vacation in Mexico a lot, and I have zero tolerance for loud, obnoxious Americans abusing staff.
`Our DD is entirely a private affair, so nobody else is aware of it. When we first got together, I drank a lot more, and would sometimes be a bit loud and "animated". She doesn't drink at all, and didn't like it when I got like that. We agreed that I should limit my drinking, and whenever I went over my limit, it was my responsibility to immediately inform her, which would guarentee a hard spanking the next day. She was very consistent about helping me change my behavior, and it has really improved our relationship. I seldom argue with her, and always try to treat her with respect. The only other issue that will really annoy her and result in a hard paddling is when I drive in a manner she doesn't approve of. The closest we ever came to involving others about our DD was when I was driving with her and 2 of her lady friends. I made a left turn which was close to an oncoming car, and I thought she might tell me I was in for a spanking when we got home. Looking back on it, I wish she had. That would have been a long ride home. She did tell a few friends that she spanks me, but they didn't have any interest in learning more about it. We do know another couple that practices F/M DD, but they live pretty far away.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Norton.
DeleteJust a quick note in case others are confused: This topic was meant to be more about whether your wife or significant other's disciplinary authority or actions extends to things you've done to other parties or bad behavior that they've witnessed or borne the brunt of, not really whether third parties know about the DD relationship.
My behavior toward others is certainly grounds for a punishment. The spanking I received at a friend’s home was because of my behavior toward the group we were with. I was taken to an adjacent room and spanked…..everyone knew.
ReplyDeleteMy former Dominant (wife) carried this concept even further. She would often inform or even invite them to my punishment. A step beyond that sometimes occurred too. She did suffer from spells of pain from fibromyalgia and would designate a third party to administer the punishment. Especially if my transgression was against another female dominant and she was allowed to administer the discipline. I could always be sure of a very severe spanking if it was administered by a third party.
I'm kind of surprised that a spanking administered by a third party is more severe in your experience. I've always assumed (based only on a personal hunch) that a third party might be more prone to take it easy on someone they didn't have much personal experience spanking and, conversely, that a wife might be more prone to delivering an especially hard spanking in front of a witness, in order to demonstrate her prowess. "Showing off" if you will.
DeleteI am kind of with Dan on this one. I too always expected that a spanking given by anyone else other than my wife - unless by chance they happen to be experienced disciplinarians themselves - would be less severe than my wife gives, both because they would be less sure of themselves and because they wouldn't know how hard to spank so would err on the side of caution. But I guess that depends on the people you hang out with...
DeleteOne thing I am quite sure of is that if my wife ever spanks me in front of a witness, it will be more severe than usual.
-ZM
Dan and ZM. I can see the confusing way I stated my thoughts. I meant IF the third party is a female dominant and fully capable of delivering a meaningful spanking. In addition, my wife at the time would encourage her surrogate spankER to administer a solid spanking. This would even be more evident if the third party spankER was the person my poor behavior was directed toward. She would then had a direct interest in punishing me. I do agree with ZM, when my wife spanked me in front of the person I was rude to, it would be more severe than usual.
DeleteGot it. Thanks.
DeleteDan said:... "the vast majority of my wife’s disciplinary authority is, in fact, exercised within the confines of our relationship. When I’m punished, it’s almost always for some behavior that affected mainly her, or some personal failing or rule-breaking that didn’t effect any third-parties."
ReplyDeleteDitto! With very few exceptions, this has been our dynamic. The caveat is that her disciplinary authority is understood by both of us to be at her discretion, what she has more recently described as " because I say so". But her focus has been our relationship and my behavior as it impacts our relationship. I will be interested to hear the range of experiences from others. There have been times,looking back, that it would have been positive for her to extend her disciplinary authority more into some of my decisions and behavior involving third parties. But that has been and remains her discretion.
Alan
It's also not so easy to draw a distinct line between behavior that affects the wife versus affects third-parties. When I got spanked for behavior at dinner with the other couple, one could argue that Anne was spanking me because my behavior (in her view) embarrassed her, not because she had a firm basis for thinking the other couple saw things the same way she did or were negatively impacted by it.
DeleteMy wife has to work on the weekend from time to time - I have a number of chore responsibilities to take care of when she is gone. I’ve been caught several times when I have cut corners and spent the time watching sports on TV, or just been lazy. Spankings have resulted. She has said that what I really need is “supervision”and has threatened to have one of her friends spend the afternoon at our house during those times, to be a “husband sitter”. She made it quite clear that she would tell her friend where the paddle is kept, and that the friend would be authorized to use it quite severely for any disobedience. So far no one at all knows about her use of discipline, but I’m worried that may be about to change.
ReplyDeleteDavid W.
That would certainly be an interesting development.
DeleteWhile I am obviously obsessed with all things "witness" or "others" related, I especially like the concept of having my wife get a husband sitter. I probably wouldn't like it when it happened, but I am confident that I could think of nothing else before, and after it would be something burned in my mind forever.
Delete-ZM
I'm sure I wouldn't be able to either.
Delete"There were a couple of times, a long time ago, that I was spanked for something I said to one of the kids that she thought was hurtful or rude."
ReplyDelete"There has never been any call to punish me for something like taking unfair advantage of others. Same with things like being rude to waiters, waitresses, and other service providers. I don’t have any tolerance for people who behave that way and would never do it myself."
These two statements by Dan pretty sum up my answers to this week's topic as well. I could easily see her taking it further down the road of including my behavior towards others, most likely at work, since we work together, but at least so far, she hasn't.
-ZM
If Anne and I worked together, I'm sure my butt would be sore on a near-constant basis.
DeleteThere actually was a short period when we did work together to a small extent. She hated working on my stuff and thought I was a pain in the ass. Fortunately, we hadn't discovered DD at that point.
I was spanked once for arguing with a mutual female friend . Like me , and unlike my wife , she enjoys a debate/ argument and sometimes our differences of opinion would get a bit heated , but in my opinion anyway , always good natured .
ReplyDeleteHowever , on one occasion my wife felt I had gone too far and , despite my protests , it earned me a date with the paddle.
Interestingly , our friend stopped by the next day with a 'peace offering' of my favourite beers and an apology for getting me in trouble , so she felt bad about it .
I don't know if she suspected I'd been paddled but did say that she hoped my wife wasn't too hard on me.
I'm sure my face must have turned as red as my butt when she said that!
I'm pretty sure she knows my wife spanks me as she did see her paddle on the coffee table one day when we forgot to put it away after a session.
The two of us still have some lively discussions whrn we get together but not as feisty as before.
I am certain she did know. This would be deeply embarrassing for me, but I would never forget the spanking or what I was spanked for doing. And if managing behavior is the goal, that is what its about.
DeleteAlan
That's a tough one, and I experienced something a bit like it, in terms of Anne getting uncomfortable with vigorous discussions between me and certain people, when that's just the way we communicate with each other.
DeleteYes it was difficult to fathom as the fact that the two of us were actually enjoying our exchange seemed to escape my wife who obviously viewed it very differently. Sounds like it was the same dynamic for your experience too Dan.
DeleteYes, and when I've referred here to a small number of times that I've felt resentment about a punishment or being told what to do, that one tops the list. I think the one reason I settled down a bit and came to see her point was that even people who are close to me have noted that I sometimes come off as more intense than I intend to. I've actually been surprised (and a bit hurt) a few times when colleagues (usually younger people on team) said they sometimes felt intimidated by me, as that definitely was not what I was trying to project. So, I came to accept Anne's chastisement around interpersonal communications as maybe beneficial for doing a bit of a level set. But, it is still an issue, and having my communication style dictated can definitely be a sore point for me.
DeleteThere was an incident where she was following me in her car, and she noticed I hadn’t stopped for a pedestrian waiting to cross the street. We were on our way to a concert, and after we parked, she informed me that I would be getting a hard spanking immediately after the concert. It was a memorable concert, and the realization that a spanking was looming was never far from my mind. We both really enjoyed the concert, but when we got back, she was all business, and delivered a very hard paddling.
ReplyDeleteI've had a few events like that, where I had to sit through some social activity, knowing I would be spanked when we got home. Very distracting!
DeleteSeveral years ago we were stopped by police as my husband was driving a bit aggressively and failed to fully stop for a pedestrian in the cross walk. My husband was rude to the officer and was arguing with him. I interrupted and told the officer he would be very sorry when we got home. The officer nodded affirmatively, he will never talk back to an officer again.
DeleteI'm not a big fan of interactions with the police. But, the consequences of being rude can be bad enough that even I can succeed in keeping my anti-authoritarian attitude in check.
DeleteThis is also a great example of effective spanking--linking it clearly to the misbehavior, providing an interval to think about it ( and what you did), and then following through shortly afterward with a hard spanking. Like Glenmore ( above), this is also one Norton is unlikely to forget
ReplyDeleteAlan
Alan, you are correct- that was an incident neither of us will forget. It was one of the most memorable concerts I have attended, and I look back on it fondly.
DeleteRegarding things I punished J. for, offences towards other people were just as much in scope for punishment as offences towards me. I remember one occasion where there was a public spat with a colleague. J. received a very hard spanking, which was followed by the usual. The colleague who knew about our F/M DD marriage (through experiencing it himself) was not aware of the spat, but commented to me after J.'s following day at work. He commented that J. apologised to the colleague in question (not enough for the observing colleague to deduce the previous night's events). He observed that when J. sat down, it was clearly uncomfortable for him, but he had a quiet and contented appearance. He commented that these two signs indicate a man is in a functional F/M DD marriage.
ReplyDeleteL.
L's post made me think about how she has definite standards for J, similar to other women who have posted in here. Most of us men on this blog want their women to monitor their behavior and to punish them if they don't behave. In general, women seem to be less aggressive, and better behaved. They are less likely to get drunk, act macho, start fights, and get loud or "animated". We need our women to help keep us civil and set limits, especially these days when there seem to be so few limits enforced, and bad behavior gets rewarded. I'll restrain myself from naming the obvious worst example.
ReplyDeleteNorton,
DeleteJ. always appreciated the way F/M DD smoothed off his rough edges in many of the ways you described!
L.
Nice discussion! I related to what Dan wrote:
ReplyDelete>"It's also not so easy to draw a distinct line between behavior that affects the wife versus affects third-parties. When I got spanked for behavior at dinner with the other couple, one could argue that Anne was spanking me because my behavior (in her view) embarrassed her, not because she had a firm basis for thinking the other couple saw things the same way she did or were negatively impacted by it."<
I actually have a firm moral belief in being kind to all those whom I encounter - but, despite that - I've always had a bit of a problem with "righteous indignation", especially when I am a customer, and feel that I am not being treated as such. Over the years, this has led me to occasionally go a bit overboard in dealing with "customer service" individuals who are happy to take my money yet not be respectful. While I would never yell or curse - I have been known to become a bit of a smart ass in these situations. Of course, while I do believe that paying customers should always be treated respectfully, that type of behavior is not what I aspire to.
And - it really bothers my wife when I do that. And if she happens to be with me, it's a sure bet that I going to be spanked for it later. Now I'm sure my wife does feel badly for the individual that I have lambasted - but to Dan's point - I really feel it's more about her feeling embarrassed for herself than anything else.
I have improved my behavior significantly in this regard over the years - primarily because I think it is the right thing to do. Nevertheless, the numerous times I have been paddled for this behavior over the years had undoubtedly reinforced my own desire to be more civil as well. --al
"While I would never yell or curse - I have been known to become a bit of a smart ass in these situations."
DeleteHonestly, it's possible I go too far in the opposite direction. When they were young, our kids frequently got compliments for being so polite. They were so because they had seen us always being scrupulously polite to customer service people. But, I do think there have been times when I probably smiled and put up with service problems that I should have said something about. But, if I had draw the line too far on one side or the other, I'm glad I've handled things the way I do. I can't stand when I see "Karen"-like behavior or its male equivalent, and I hope I never engage in it.
Your strong moral belief in being kind to others is a great starting point, and one we all should emulate. I add a caveat that I adopted from a former mentor in my career. He told me something to the effect of: "I try to go into every professional encounter assuming that the guy/gal on the other side is a good, decent person trying their best to the right thing in a hard job. But . . . if they prove me wrong . . . I can out asshole anyone."
Al wrote: “I have improved my behavior significantly in this regard over the years - primarily because I think it is the right thing to do. Nevertheless, the numerous times I have been paddled for this behavior over the years had undoubtedly reinforced my own desire to be more civil as well”
DeleteWhat Al describes above is a formula that has worked for us over the years to bring about lasting behavior modification in several areas. First, I am motivated to do or stop doing something she cares about because I am convinced it is the” right thing to do”. Secondly, she is committed to correcting me if I fail to meet my own standards. She cares about it as much as I do, and she is as committed to changing the behavior as I am,
My (mostly) former relationship with road rage is exhibit A. If I am tempted to go off, my first thought is I don’t want to do this to her (make her upset), but close behind often is that wincing memory from my last meeting with her paddle. Is it the chicken or the egg? I think it doesn’t matter. If you are really interested in changing a behavior, make sure you both strongly care about it.
Alan
I like theory of, if I have to I can a hole out anyone. I feel it’s extremely important to treat everyone with the level of respect; that you would want to be treated like. Unfortunately, today’s society has seemed to have forgotten manners and a level of respect that we grew up with. I inadvertently called an adult by his first name when younger and my Mother paddled my bottom for it. We were taught please, thank you, yes sir, no mam ect. I spent sometime in the service business when younger and went out of my way to provide great customer service. That level of service is not the same and I’ve become aggravated by poor service throughout various industries. My wife has punished me a few times for my misbehavior even though it’s been warranted. I do admit though that i will not correct poor customer service anymore. I will send an email, speak with a manger, ect. If i feel wronged. It has become a bone of contention with me because, I became tired of saying nothing and chalking it up to a bad day.
DeleteT
I will add that I do have a soft spot for restaurant staff - having spent some time working part time jobs in that business during high school and college. I am never rude to wait staff, and if I do have a significant problem at a restaurant (seldom), it would be the manager that I cop an attitude with - and, as I know they have a tough job as well, that would only be if they copped an attitude first and seemed indifferent to correcting the problem (and that doesn't happen often either - but has on occasion).
DeleteAnd still, one one occasion I did go overboard with that as well, embarrassing my wife, and resulting in a very sound paddling soon when we got home. --al
I worked as a restaurant cook once. Lasted 5 days . . .
DeleteWell, since I was the instigator of this week's (initial) discussion topic, I certainly have a duty to contribute a few limited examples from my own life.
ReplyDeleteThe first example is not something that directly involved me, but I was a witness to a most interesting exchange between four women and one man approximately three years ago. I was standing in line at our local US Post Office, when another man who was at the Service Counter, talking with a Postal Clerk, became frustrated that the Postal Service could apparently not provide what he wanted. Then he started becoming louder, then became ruder, and finally began acting somewhat "bullying" toward the your female clerk. This guy was in his mid-forties, tall (+6"-4"), while the clerk was young (mid-20's) and rather petite. It was obvious from her body language that she was feeling "intimidated," but she continued on the most polite, friendly, "good customer service" manner.
There were roughly 5 to 6 other customers in line with me, and we were all becoming more and more concerned. Maybe "aghast" would be the best word. Three of these other customers were women in their late-thirties to maybe early-fifties, and I could tell they were become particularly upset. I myself was thinking about a purposeful intervention and attempted de-escalation
I don't know what originally set-off this man who was bullying the Postal Clerk. However, to best understand the milieu, and possible reasons for what happened next, I think more cultural details might help. The man would probably be described by most people (and probably himself) as "Black" or "African American." The Postal Clerk could be described as Latina. (There has long been a certain level of friction between these two communities in Southern California; a feeling among some that they are being displaced by "newer arrivals; a feeling among some others that they are regularly "disrespected" by more established residents.) The three women in line were African Americans, two of whom were somewhat dress-up (dressed kind of like "church ladies").
Just when it looked like this whole situation (Clerk, man, "church ladies, and myself) was about to "go off the rails," the man gave up and started heading toward the lobby door. The man had just started opening that door when one of the "church ladies" turned in his directly and spoke up. She spoke in a very clear, very succinct and projected tone (basically, the "command voice"):
"That 'boy' needs a good butt-whipping!"
Then the oldest woman added: "'Boy' needs a serious lesson in manners!"
The man stopped dead in his tracks, then turned his head to see who had spoken. All three woman were :"staring him down." The one woman who hadn't spoken was simply nodding her head, up and down, in agreement.
The man seemed to instantly lose almost half a foot in height; his head dipped down and his shoulder raised up, as if to protect his head. He finished opening the door and left. Best description I could use was he "skulked" away.
I was just stunned! I'd never been party to something like that, and in a large public place with lots of other people around. Stunned!
I think the young female Postal Clerk was also stunned: Her jaw was down and her mouth hanging open. One of the ladies proceeded to the Customer Counter and had some quite, private words with the Clerk. I don't know that was said, but the Clerk seemed recover; her body language was much less "stressed."
I don't know if I need explain how, among African American men, describing one as "boy" is incredibly insulting and demeaning. Doing it in public, in front of someone not "of the community" is downright humiliating to the man.
ReplyDeleteThere three ladies certainly knew how best to chastise this man.
And you know, from my watching and listening to those ladies, I didn't have the slightest doubt that any one of them would gladly take up a belt or strap and personally teach that man the most serious lesson in manners. If he had been one of their husbands he would have had a very rough night ahead of him. (I've even wondered, more recently, if any of those ladies might have known that man's family; that man's wife? That would have been interesting!)
Something else that I have noticed here in the Forum, and on the DWC website (and thus the club): My perception is that there are very few African Americans or US Latinos participating. Now, maybe this is just my misperception, because I tend to apply my own stereotypes to minor differences in methods of writing. However, I recently went back and examined some of Aunt Kay's "Membership Surveys" from the early 2000's. The demographic question about race revealed less than two percent (2%) of members identified as "Black." Much fewer self-identified as "Latino." This is very strange. The ratios of DWC membership to presence in the US Population are roughly factors of 1/9th and 1/14th.
ReplyDeleteI find it particular strange when you consider that "childhood / teenage spanking" occurs at much higher rates (fractions of households) in those two communities than the overall population; much higher rates than in self-identified "white families." And this pattern has persisted for many decades. (All sorts of reasonable theories have been proposed by researchers as to why these rates are so much higher in African American families: Legacies of slavery; much higher distributions of these families in the South ("Bible Belt"); that large percentage of these family are "Baptists" with associate "child rearing beliefs;" etc.
I've also read, "anecdotally," in many forums and discussion on the web these past two decade that African American woman seem much more likely to accept and engage in "adult spanking;" punitive adult spanking, possibly because more of these women were raised in families where the mother was the primary (or only) disciplinarian.
Anyway, I thought I would throw that out there for possible future discussion. And also ask for any ideas how we and the DWC Webster might be more interesting to a wider demographic in our much wider community.
I did have a couple final thought as to why more African Americans do not visit or participate here or in the DWC:
First, it's possible that somehow, inadvertently, the DWC is perceived as "too white" already (which it is), and that dissuades a diverse population from joining; a self-perpetuating problem. Any ideas on this?
Second, and I believe this is certainly, partly responsible (especially considering the "church ladies" in the Post Office): The DWC seems redundant! Basically, many more African American women are already quite open to practicing domestic discipline, or do actually practice DD, and that they are simply not interested in being educated and proselytized into the benefits of living and maintaining such DD families. These women look at the DWC's content, then say to themselves: "Well DUH! Who needs to be taught about that; that's already so obvious, why waste my time."
So, I don't think I will do that one as a topic. No matter how hard one tries to keep things fact-based and neutral, topics about race and religion are asking for trouble.
DeleteAs for the question as to "why more African Americans do not visit or participate here or in the DWC," I don't know that to be the case. The fact is, I've never discussed my own race here, and I have no idea what any other participant's race is. I'm willing to reveal a bit indirectly now, but for purposes of a cautionary tale about not making assumptions.
Several years ago, I was on a work project that involved frequent discussions with a woman who worked in another office. All by telephone. One day, she let me know that she would be visiting our campus and asked if I had time to meet in person and maybe grab a drink to get to know each other better. On the afternoon of her visit, she popped into my office and introduced herself. I could tell that something was a little "off," in part because when she looked in she saw me, stepped back, looked at the name on the wall by the office door, seemed a little perplexed, then introduced herself. We went out for happy hour, and after a couple of drinks, I told her that I'd detected some odd reaction when she first saw me in my office and asked what that was about. She looked very sheepish and said, "I hate to say this, but having only our telephone calls to go on, I thought you were . . . black."
The lesson being, while I don't doubt some of your assumptions about racial prevalence may be right, none of us have any way of knowing even the relative proportions of various races and ethnicities visiting the blog, and I don't personally make any assumptions about the race of any of the actual participants here.
I too have seen references to studies indicating that spanking is more prevalent in black communities. But, to the extent it's true (the quality of studies involving childhood spanking seem to be pretty crappy across the board), I'm not really surprised that prevalence in childhood is a terrible predictor of prevalence for adults. Why? Because in 10 years of doing this blog, I haven't been able to discern ANY real correlation between childhood and adult spanking. Some of us experienced strict parental discipline. Some of experienced it to a more limited extent. Some of us experienced none. Yet, we all ended up with an atypically strong adult attraction to it. So, if childhood spanking is a poor predictor for adult spanking among those who participate here, why would I think it would be a good predictor among any other population?
You noted that part of the difference in spanking prevalence may be the demographics associated with the Bible Belt. I suspect (but it's basically a wild ass guess) that cultural-geographic factors do have a major influence on the prevalence of corporal punishment -- far more than race or ethnicity independently. I grew up (in part) in the Bible Belt, in an agricultural community where corporal punishment was very prevalent and very open. But, it also happened to be overwhelmingly white. A few years later, I moved to a similarly-sized agricultural town in the Southwest. The population was majority hispanic. While there was corporal punishment in school, it was much, much less prevalent than in my original Bible Belt hometown. And, while it was very open and just part of the cultural background in the Bible Belt hometown, I don't remember it being discussed at all among us kids i the Southwest, non-Bible Belt community. It just wasn't "a thing" in the latter, while it was very much a pervasive thing in the former.
My experience growing up in a strict religious bible thumping backround was as follows.
DeleteMost parents believed in spare the rod spoil the child. We had two black families that lived on our block. One of the families moved in and had three young children. The Mother was the disciplinarian and she did not hold back. I can remember many of whippings overheard while living across the street. I remember her daughter stole some candy at school and I observed the strapping given to her walking by collecting for a paper route. She laid the strap on and of course I couldn't peel my eyes away. I used to catch a ride home from school once in a blue moon and I was suspended for one day for multiple homework violations. She looked right at me and states, “if you were my kid, I’d whoop your bare bottom, so you literary wouldn’t sit for a week. Your Moms problem is she does not beat you enough. I became beet red and embarrassed. I admit later on down the road , I fantasized about a strapping from her. The other black family had two daughters and the Mother had a switch that was behind the door. I observed welts on one of the daughter’s legs one day. I tend to think that DD is prevelant in the black community, it’s just not spoken about. I’m sure that there are plenty of couples out there that practice it. It would not surprise me if she spanked her husband. He was timid and she ran the roost. I have no proof. I also think that because it’s so prevalent in the black community, that it’s not discussed. Unlike Dan, I still have a hard time believing that people utilizing DD, had zero experience with spanking in their youth. I understand it’s out there, but I just can’t wrap my head around how it’s possible. I think it was around me so much that it’s hardwired into the brain. If I hadn’t experienced it in my youth, I believe my wife and I would be totally vanilla. When it comes to the black community, corporal punishment is so prevalent that they are probably involved in DD but don’t blog about it. It took me years here as a lurker, before I posted.
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I thought I was very clear that it was my initial "perception" that there were few "minorities" participating here in the forum or were part of the DWC (i.e., wrote "real" or "fiction" essays).
DeleteInteresting anecdote regarding your female business associate mistakenly inferring from your speech artifacts that you were "black." I don't know your "speech artifacts," but if you spent significant parts of your up in a rural, Southern environment, your may very well have artifacts that more commonly occur in African Americans from those regions.
Let anyone think I'm kind of blowin smoke, or am not sensitive to such questions, maybe I should explain that I was lucky to have four different parents. Two of them would never have been classified by any third party as "white." Both of the others were from the South. One of my grandmothers was Mexican, and I spent many years living with her, there. (I hold tri-national citizenship: Canda; US; Mexico.) So, I've lived in this "borderland" between "races" and "ethnicities" my entire life. I really can't tell you the numerous times that someone would meet me, then be shocked to meet my parents; or, meet my parents first, then be shocked to meet me. (Same with one set of grandparents.)
Yes, I have "Scottish" ancestry from one parent (Dan, you do know my full, "given" name), and I probably "look white" to most people. My best friend in life (really much more like a brother) also happened to be of "Scottish" ancestry. Many people might first talk to him on the phone, then meet him and be surprised that he was "African Amercan." He would alway correct them: "NO. My ancestray is 'Scottish'; I'm a "Douglass;" my ancestry is the 'Black Douglasses Dundee!" My family has lived there for almost four-hundred years."
So, yes, it can certainly get complicated. Especially when so much of our "perceptions" are really coming from our subconscious learning in (for most people) still segregated environments. However, from my own "wide-ranging" experience, I do tend to trust my own "subconscious perceptions" regarding such questions, maybe too much. But I did say it was my "perceptions."
That does not mean I won't go looking for evidence that other people might more easily accept.
DeleteI believe Aunt Kay's Survey-2 is a reasonable source for determining the percentage of "minorities" that are members of the DWC (at least back in 2008). (A sampling of over one-thousand members give reasonable Poison Statistics for ethnic makeups, even down to smaller groups of ~1%) Since there is no evidence that this percentage has changed (either direction), or any reasonable suggestion as to WHY it might change, those original numbers seem valid for making the assertions I did regarding African American and Latino participation in the DWC. So, when Aunt Kays own survey statistics show 99% and +99% non-minority membership in the DWC, with no contravening evidence, NONE, I will go with one of my favorite Auntie's numbers.
Now, an interesting question: How well do Aunt Kay's statistics "correllate" with, or "partially predict," the unknown ethnic makup of the your DCC blog? My "feeling" is that there isn't much difference. In fact, I have a very hard time generating any reasonable argument or rational why the percentages should be significantly different. Can you?
I never meant to suggest we create a "blog topic" on why or how various ethnic minorities do or don't practice DD. (Sorry if I wrote poorly.) What I did wonder, and I think is worth considering (if only privately) is how we might appear more "open" and "inviting" to ethnic minorities who might be interested in DD. Might we add photographs of a greater variety of "everyday" woman to your blog help that endeavor?
(I'll personally see what I can do to assist. Frankly, and my wife is already aware of this, and she sometimes teases me about 'how it all started many years ago with my "non-non-minority mother," and my "non-non-minority grand-mother".' Yes, I have very "strong thing" for older, strong "minority maternal types" wielding straps and paddles. Needless to say, I got "QUITE A REACTION" at that Post Office several years ago!)
As I said, I'll see of I can't find some more "diverse" photos, if you don't mind me emailing you some of those?
(BTW: I generally get my "family spanking" statistics, and the "ethnic," "religious" and "geographic" cross-correlations, from the Federal Government's "Annual American Family Survey." It is well designed by professionals, been run every year for many decades, and samples a very large group of families specifically chosen to match the distribution of characteristiccs across the US Population.)
R.e. Interesting discussion about how being spanked as a kid can lead to interest in DD later. I was spanked OTK from 1st grade to 3rd grade by a woman who taught in a fundamentalist Christian school. It was probably one of the few times in my childhood when I experienced any boundaries, as my parents mostly ignored me. I think that translated into equating spanking with a feeling of being cared for, which led to a sexual turn on. Later on, I was spanked a few times by a junior high principal, and there was nothing erotic about that. It wasn't until many years later when I read about F/M spanking on the DWC site, that I realized I wanted something like that. However, it wasn't until reading about DD on this site that I discovered that it was an actual lifestyle. And I do feel that when I get a spanking, it is an act of love. It also took me years as a lurker before I posted.
ReplyDeleteNorton, I am in the exact same category as you. Spanked by a school teacher in the first grade. I noticed she seemed to pick on me a lot. I received multiple spankings from her in the closet of the school room after class. Technically, she should of sent me to the principals office. Unlike you though, we had strict boundaries and my Mother would paddle or strap at the first sign of disrespect or disobedience. The sexual turn in came from that teacher and the my best friends Mother spanked both him a I a few times. My Mother and his Mother both game each other permission to spank if we were ever out of line. It was rare but did occur. I think that’s why I’m always blown away when someone said they weren’t spanked or even observed one when young. I can’t see how they can relate to DD. Of course the DWC was the catalyst for me to approach my wife, I actually would send her some of Aunt Kay’s quotes once in a while. The lifestyle had helped me with my attitude and mouth that’s for sure. I like you found nothing erotic about being paddled by my principal.
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I also think receiving a spanking is an act of love. J. was always keen for me to know that he was willing to suffer pain or loss of life for me and he proved this with his actions. There were countless examples of me spanking him extremely hard, so that he screamed in pain, followed by him being on top in a reciprocal motion, looking into my eyes and telling me how grateful he was for the spanking and how much he loved me. He had a very spankable bottom and he made it very accessible to me! He was definitely a great husband!
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Being in an FLR with DD my wife is the authority and the disciplinarian in the relationship. I get spanked when she says I am getting spanked full stop. As much as I dont like the comparison it is very much like a parent/child dynamic when it comes to her authority and discipline. She takes the role seriously and while she is typically kind and nurturing she knows how much her authority and discipline has improved my behavior and our relationship so she does not spare the rod. In short, yes, I have been disciplined several times for third party interactions and in most of those cases the third party was aware I was disciplined and had my behavior corrected. - DD
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