“As kids, our experiences shape our opinions of ourselves and the world around us, and that's who we become as adults.” - Chris Hemsworth
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.
Once again, before we get started, I would like to thank the female commenters who have recently joined us and to extend an invitation to all others who may be inclined to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We like having you around.
I hope you had a good week. Mine was pretty good. Quite a departure from last week on the Domestic Discipline front. No spankings.
Was it just me, or did last week’s conversation never quite gel? A few comments here and there, but participation seemed to be down significantly. Hopefully, people were just busy with other things.
Near the end of the weekly comments, Donn raised some issues about racial, religious, and geographic influences on adult DD participation. I don’t want to get into those issues directly, particularly religion and spanking. Whenever I’ve done so in the past, it’s attracted some discussion that I just don’t want to get into. But, Donn’s comments did lead to an observation from me about the correlation, or lack thereof, between the prevalence of spankings in our respective childhoods and our DD desires as an adult.
My point being that, after over ten years of running this blog, I’ve been unable to detect any such correlation. Some of us were subject to corporal punishment as kids. Some weren’t. Some had strict parents. Some had very lax parents. Some experienced spankings in school. Some did not.
Although I think most of us intuitively believe there should be a positive correlation between relative degrees of exposure to spanking as a kid and interest in spanking and discipline as an adult, I have a really difficult time seeing one emerge from the thousands and thousands of comments on this blog. We seem to assume that if we want to be spanked by our wives now it is probably because we were spanked by our mothers as kids, but I just haven't seen much evidence presented in our blog comments that it's actually true.
Some of you may be familiar with the polls that were posted on the old DWC website. While illuminating, they too were riddled with hidden assumptions that almost undoutedly skewed the results. For example, there were several questions related to spankings by mothers, but there was not a single question (from what I recall) about whether participants were spanked by their fathers. There seemed to be a presumption, hidden in the otherwise seemingly neutral questions, that adult DD interest must be associated with parental spankings and, more narrowly, with spankings from the mother and not the father.
But, it’s also been a long time since I’ve tried to drill down into the issue in any systematic way. In the early days of the blog, it was somewhat easier to figure out the leanings of our participants/lurkers on various issues, because Blogger had a neat little polling widget. Unfortunately, that polling capability is long gone, so I’m stuck with just asking tailored questions and hoping people respond. It’s a pain in the ass, but I’m going to try it again this week.
So, here goes my attempt to ask a series of questions with the specific intent of teasing out the extent to which there is or is not a correlation between our early spanking experience, or lack thereof, and out interests in DD as an adult.
I hope both regular
participants and lurkers will participate, as it’s an easy entry point into
telling us all a little bit about your DD background but without having to
craft a long, self-revelatory comment.
So, here goes. I’ve put the choices in parentheses to try to keep things
simple:
- What is your DD orientation? (spanker/spankee/switch)
- How prevalent was spanking in the community/communities you grew up in? (very prevalent/moderately prevalent/not prevalent at all)
- How open were parents and kids in your community about spankings, including talking openly about the subject and/or spanking in public? (very open/moderately open/it was known but kept mostly/it was not discussed or performed in public at all)
- How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home? (frequently/a few times but not regularly/not at all)
- If you were subject to corporal punishment at home, who was the primary disciplinarian? (mother/father/both mother and father equally)
- Were you subject to corporal punishment at school? (yes/no)
- Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school? (yes/no)
- At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older)
- At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older)
Like I said, I’ve tried to keep this simple and straightforward. Unfortunately, I know from experience with the old Blogger polling widget that I will inevitably look at the responses a week from now and know I should have added certain questions or stated some questions differently. But, let’s go with those for now.
Please try to answer each question using one of the suggested options. But, feel free to give additional details to clarify or further elucidate your answers.
I will try to kick things off.
- What is your DD orientation? (spanker/spankee/switch)
Answer: Spankee
- How prevalent was spanking in the community/communities you grew up in? (very prevalent/moderately prevalent/not prevalent at all)
Answer: Very prevalent in the community I was born and raised in for several years. It was less prevalent, or at least not as openly prevalent, in the community where I went to high school.
- How open were parents and kids in your community about spankings, including talking openly about the subject and/or spanking in public? (very open/moderately open/it was known but kept mostly/it was not discussed or performed in public at all)
Answer: In the community where I was born and raised for several years, it was very out in the open. Parents talked about it and were not at all shy about spanking kids (their own and sometimes others) in places where it could be overheard or sometimes witnessed. Where I went to high school, it was much less open, though still practiced in school.
- How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home? (frequently/a few times but not regularly/not at all)
Answer: A few times but not regularly.
- If you were subject to corporal punishment at home, who was the primary disciplinarian? (mother/father/both mother and father equally)
Answer: I don’t have many specific memories of childhood
spankings, but I think mother and father roughly equally. I recall my biological father (he died when I was young) threatening spankings, but I don't recall any actual ones. I am pretty sure my mother did spank me a few times when I was young, but not often. I do remember her spanking one of my step-siblings. I recall one belt strapping from my step-father, and it was very memorable.
- Were you subject to corporal punishment at school? (yes/no)
Answer: Corporal punishment did take place at school, and I was sent to the principals’ office a few times with the expectation I would be paddled, but I don’t think it ever actually happened.
- Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school? (yes/no)
Answer: Yes, a handful of times by uncles or aunts. There may have been others, but I don’t recall.
- At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older)
Answer: 30s. Late 30s to be specific.
- At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older)
Answer: 30s. Late 30s to be specific.
Even though I’m sure it will be a small sample and the results won’t be remotely scientific, hopefully we’ll get enough answer to either see some patterns or conclude there just don’t seem to be any. In any event, I look forward to see all your answers.
Have a great week.
I’ll start us off for the week as thats how the conversation ended with Norton and Donn.
ReplyDelete1. Spankee
2. Very prevelant. There was not a week that went by where I did not observe, over hear, witness, or receive one. This happened at home, church, and school.
3. Very open, it was commonly talked about by us kids after receiving one. Parents had no issues saying, your cruising for a spanking. Keep it up.
4. Frequently- it was either me or my siblings on the receiving end. Some were drawn out, some over quickly.
5. Mother only.
6. Yes, we were paddled at school. I was probably paddled about a dozen times a year. It was usually for not completing my homework.
It would be a few strokes of the paddle. The max you could receive at one time was six.
7. Yes, babysitter, friends parents, both Mom and Dad, pastor of church once or twice.
8. Teens, I received my first bare bottom spanking from a church girlfriend. She was spanked by her parents as well. I arrived late at her house one day without calling and she was mad. I suggested a strapping. She did not disappoint. I was probably sixteen. I gave her a long hard hand spanking as well. I also dated a girl at 19 who strapped me good a few times as well.
9. Late teens. I found the DWC website and was hooked. Unfortunately my ex had no interest in thrashing me for bad behavior. I utilized some disciplinarians who taught me a lesson or two. I’ve stated before that one passed away and if she had not, I would still see her today. She punished for real life infractions.
T
It sounds like the prevalence in your community and school were even more prevalent than where I grew up - which is saying a lot. In my hometowns, corporal punishment was a thing, but I don't recall it being applied to things like missing homework. But, it could be that I've just forgotten some of it. Also, I moved from the community where it was the most prevalent in the middle of grade school, and homework probably wasn't a big thing at that point.
DeleteWell, since I was the (partial) instigator of this weeks discussion, . . .
ReplyDeleteWhat is your DD orientation?
"Spankee"
How prevalent was spanking in the community/communities you grew up in?
Wow, this is a hard one, as anyone who happened to read my posting this afternoon (2/15) in last week's blog can understand. All of these answers are for years 1965-1980. . . .
One community (Upper mid-west, USA), "not prevalent at all."
Another community (South US, middle-class, +97% "white") "moderately prevalent";
another very close (2mi) community (working class, 99.5% "black") "EXTREMELY prevalent."
Another community (Southern Mexico), "moderately prevalent".
Another community (Western Plains, Canada), "not prevalent at all."
Another community (Mason-Dixon Line), "moderately prevalent".
How open were parents and kids in your community about spankings, including talking openly about the subject and/or spanking in public?
In communities where it was either "moderately prevalent" or "+EXTREMELY prevalent", kids talked about it, when it happened to "others." Most adults did not talk about it, unless they we immediate participants in delivering discipline. Overall, I would say for those two types of communities: "moderately open."
How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home?
"A few times (#4: age-5, 6, & 11 [home];, 13 [school]) but not regularly."
If you were subject to corporal punishment at home, who was the primary disciplinarian?
"Mother."
Were you subject to corporal punishment at school?
"Yes." (Two communities in South US.)
Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school?
"No."
At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked?
At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings?
Disciplinary Spanked (self): "early teens" (non-erotic)
Erotic Spanking (females): "early teens"
Erotic and DD Spanked (self): "mid-30's"
Probably the biggest "spanking shock" of my life was when we moved to an overwhelmingly "black" community in Texas. Yes, there was spanking of kids at home, and sometimes we talked amongst ourselves. However, it was shocking, simply incredible how much spanking went on in Junior High School -- "paddlings". (My younger brothers told me it was "the belt" in their elementary school a few blocks from my school.) Practically every teacher had a paddle in her classroom desk. For more serious offenses, a teacher (>80% "she") would simply have you stand out in the hall until one of the vice-principals, "on patrol," would come by and take care of "your business." There was also the morning "tardy line": Thirty to forty students who were not in the building when the morning (8:00am) bell rang; they would have to wait outside the school doors, and get 3-5 licks from the vice principal as each came through those doors, before they could go on to class -- "parental notes?", valid excuses? - didn't matter, bend over! A student who forgets his "gym-kit" at home (me, only once): One of the "coaches" would use his "super-sized" paddle to minimize recurrences. You get the picture! (I certainly enjoyed watching a lot, a huge number, of "tight female bottoms" jumping, twisting and squirming under those paddles!) All very public, which was the point -- maximum "deterrence" value)
I know Dan doesn’t wasn’t to discuss religion and race and it’s affects on spanking, but unfortunately it plays a serious part into some of our DD lives now. It’s a subject that unfortunately can’t be overlooked.
DeleteYou should watch the opening of season 4 of Fargo.
DeleteYes, in the schools in the Deep South, most of the teachers had a paddle in the classroom when I was growing up. It was not unusual for a teacher to take a student out in the hall and paddle them (they were limited to a few whacks - don't remember the exact number).
Delete--al
In fact, I recall having a conversation with a teacher friend a few years ago, and she told me that she was still taking middle school kids out to the hall to paddle them as recently as the 1990's. --al
DeleteI recall that too, in my Bible Belt first hometown. In my later hometown in the Southwest, I don't recall individual teachers ever paddling. Instead, kids were always sent to the principal's office.
DeleteSome months ago (or even a year or so), I recounted the story of my ex-wife's school paddle that she had inherited from the teacher she replaced. My ex-wife never used the paddle at school - and sadly refused to use it on me as well - and ultimately threw it away, much to my dismay. I recall seeing paddles for sale at the teacher supply store when I went there with her in the 90's. My wife getting a paddle from the other teacher and paddles being sold at the teacher supply store tells me that at least in our part of the country, teachers were paddling students in the 1990's and probably later.
Delete-ZM
ZM, I'm not surprised it was going on to a fairly significant extent in the 90s. I graduated from high school in the mid-80s and it was still prevalent then, so I'm not surprised at all that 5 to 10 years later it was still going strong.
DeleteGoogle's "spam monster" struck again: Devoured my post!
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete* What is your DD orientation? (spanker/spankee/switch)
My orientation really is switch, but since my wife is purely spanker, I am actually only ever spankee.
* How prevalent was spanking in the community/communities you grew up in? (very prevalent/moderately prevalent/not prevalent at all)
Non-existent
* How open were parents and kids in your community about spankings, including talking openly about the subject and/or spanking in public? (very open/moderately open/it was known but kept mostly/it was not discussed or performed in public at all)
See above. N/a
* How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home? (frequently/a few times but not regularly/not at all)
Not at all
* If you were subject to corporal punishment at home, who was the primary disciplinarian? (mother/father/both mother and father equally)
See above, N/a
* Were you subject to corporal punishment at school? (yes/no)
No
* Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school? (yes/no)
No
* At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older)
Teen
* At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older)
Late 40s
TG
I should add my DD interest was triggered - like so many others - by discovering the DWC. If I’d found it earlier I may have been interested at a younger age. TG
DeleteTG:
DeleteYES! My own interest in corporal punishment, for myself, both erotic and disciplinary, was triggered by the DWC. I think I was "primed" by many life-events before that, but reading the "Real People's" accounts on the DWC was truly "transformative."
You do seem to be one of the very few who seems to have had virtually no exposure to spanking early on and yet developed an interest by your teens.
DeleteLove the 'Barb' drawing - I asked Chat GPT to write a story about the image with very entertaining results!
ReplyDeleteWhat is your DD orientation? In reality strictly spankee as my wife has no interest in being t the receiving end (and I have no interest in spanking her or any lady). In fantasy I could go either / both ways.
How prevalent was spanking in the community/communities you grew up in? (very prevalent/moderately prevalent/not prevalent at all). Very, it was a constant serious and half -serious threat although rarely executed in my home. Spanking language was frequently used as a threat...
How open were parents and kids in your community about spankings, including talking openly about the subject and/or spanking in public? (very open/moderately open/it was known but kept mostly/it was not discussed or performed in public at all). I overheard spankings as a child, from neighbours houses fairly often. Some friends were very open about what had happened to them
How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home? (frequently/a few times but not regularly/not at all). Almost never - the very occasional 'smack' and I knew then to behave.
If you were subject to corporal punishment at home, who was the primary disciplinarian? (mother/father/both mother and father equally)
Were you subject to corporal punishment at school? (yes/no) Almost daily at the hands of the Christian Brothers. Hand strapping was an everyday occurrence with the occasional OTK session from the head brother ...
Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school? (yes/no) No
At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older). Early teens, at the onset of puberty
At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older) Late 40s
TB
TB, I also love the Barb drawing, and the matter of fact expression on the woman's face is the main attraction for me. On to the survey.......
Delete1) switch - I spank her for sex and pleasure, she spanks me for DD
2) spanking was not prevalent in the community where I grew up
3) spanking was not discussed openly
4) I was never spanked at home
5) N/A
6) I was spanked often in elementary school, and a few times in Jr high.
7) Never spanked by relatives or 3rd parties
8) Interest in spanking began in my 20s
9) My interest in DD began after I became aware of this blog, post retirement
Had I been aware of DD much earlier, I would have had a much more stable life, and would have been a better partner. Better late than never.
"Very, it was a constant serious and half -serious threat although rarely executed in my home. Spanking language was frequently used as a threat..."
DeleteThat's a pretty close description of the way it worked for me. It permeated one of the environments I grew up in, it was a constant threat, though while it happened to me a few times it wasn't that often and certainly wasn't a regular thing.
I like many of Barb's drawings but you may notice I seldom post them, for a couple of reasons. First, she has now put up a lot of her work on a pay site, which indicates that unlike most of the spanking artists out there, she's trying to turn her art into an income stream. I try to respect that, posting only those drawings that have been out there for a long time and before she started selling them. (Though, I'd also note that many--and almost all of her recent drawings--seem to be taken from photos and other works, to which she has applied some kind of filter to give them the look and feel of a drawing. So, it's a little hard to get very concerned about copyright with respect to works that are almost all derivative works of someone else's work.) Second, her subjects tend to be on the younger side. There are a couple of her works that I really like but the subjects are so young that it crosses a line with me. I won't post them and I really wish she would have elevated the age a bit. I figured in this particular case, the entire post is about how our early exposure affected us as adults, so this drawing was directly relevant to one of the sub-issues, i.e. how "out in the open" spanking was in our communities.
Norton, it sounds like you have very limited exposure early on, but you didn't develop an interest in it until later, after you had experienced spanking in school.
Delete1. Switch in spirit, spankee in practice
ReplyDelete2. Very prevalent
3. Was known, but so common it wasn’t discussed much
4. More than a few times, but not frequent
5. Mom
6. At risk of but never received. I heard it almost daily in 7th Grade working in the office
7. No, but I do recall babysitters being empowered, not that I ever recall that happening.
8. Puberty onset, so just preteen
9. 40’s
-3pops
"Was known, but so common it wasn’t discussed much." That's kind of the way it was for us. It was discussed quite a lot, but mainly by the adults. There were constant threats about it.
DeleteOverhearing it while working in the office is a fairly unique experience. Do you attribute any of your later interest to that experience?
It is hard to recall exactly when the interest began, but I recall asking my Dad for a spanking one night without any reason and he declined. This was likely while still in elementary school, but I can’t be sure.
Delete7th grade was my first year of Jr High, I was 12 and the hormones were rampaging by then. I volunteered to work in the office as opposed to first period study hall which seemed dreadful. I didn’t really understand what I was signing up for, but watching everyone wait outside the Principal’s office, then hearing them get their 3 pops and seeing their expressions/tears afterwards wasn’t so much a spark as a blow torch igniting my interest.
"...watching everyone wait outside the Principal’s office, then hearing them get their 3 pops and seeing their expressions/tears afterwards wasn’t so much a spark as a blow torch igniting my interest." - Wow, this would have been huge for me, since the school paddling thing was such a morbid fascination. And to this day, I love spanking pictures that show tears.
DeleteBTW, is this the origin of the username "3 Pops"? If so, I just caught it.
-ZM
I can understand the "blow torch" that must have been if you were already so inclined. Tears and real emotional expressions are a HUGE thing for me in spanking drawings and pics.
DeleteYes, that’s where 3pops came from, and yes it is no surprise that school/judicial stories get me going. Accountability, rules, deadlines are what I strive for in our relationship. The maternal vibe, even though mom was the chief punisher growing up, does nothing for me.
Delete100% spankEE until several years ago when I was asked to spank a few ladies. I now enjoy being a spankER at times but still a spankEE about 80% of the time.
ReplyDeleteChildhood spankings were quite prevalent when I grew up.
Fairly well known. Spankings were at times given in public and the topic was talked about between us kind and neighborhood parents.
Most punishments at home were corporal punishments. Usually spankings.
Both parents shared the duty of administering spankings.
Yes. In my era, schools still practiced paddling for discipline.
Mostly by parents. I can only recall one spanking I got from my Aunt.
I did not develop an interest in spankings until late 40’s or early 50’s.
My interest in DD began soon after my interest in adult spankings. Since then I have lived in an FLR with DD.
Given your current 24/7 lifestyle and extensive experience, I'm kind of surprised that you are one of my fellow late-developers.
DeleteDan, After the childhood spankings were over, I spent nearly 25 years in a vanilla, male-led marriage. It was not until that began to wane, that I began looking and discovered the world of adult spanking which soon led me to the FLR and DD lifestyle. When the marriage finally ended, I realized what kind of lifestyle I wanted. I looked and found the situation I wanted and began to drift in that direction. Eventually, nearing retirement, I married a former NYC Pro Domme and changed from an alpha male to a submissive and gave up nearly all control to a female dominant.
DeleteWhat is your DD orientation?
ReplyDeleteSwitch. My wife and I are in a modified Spencer Spanking Plan marriage.
How prevalent was spanking in the community/communities you grew up in?
As far as I could tell, very prevalent.
How open were parents and kids in your community about spankings, including talking openly about the subject and/or spanking in public?
Very open.
How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home?
Interestingly, even though I grew up in a community where spanking was used frequently, my parents didn't believe in spanking - I was never spanked as a child.
If you were subject to corporal punishment at home, who was the primary disciplinarian?
N/A
Were you subject to corporal punishment at school?
No.
Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school?
No, but I had an Aunt who spanked her kids once threaten me with a spanking when I got in trouble with her son (my cousin).
At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked?
Teen, when I started dating my now-wife.
At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings?
Teen, when I started dating my now-wife.
"Interestingly, even though I grew up in a community where spanking was used frequently, my parents didn't believe in spanking - I was never spanked as a child."
DeleteI've wondered whether this might be a recipe for developing a strong interest in it -- being around it a lot but never experiencing it personally. It would seem to make almost anyone in that situation more than a bit curious.
This made me think of a different twist on my possibly crazy hypothesis that I threw out several weeks age:
Delete(original hypothesis): "Suppose that there were always a certain percentage of people who were hardwired to want or seek discipline/spanking/etc. If that is the case, then because spanking in schools and homes was such a common thing up until the past few decades, what if somehow many/most of those who were hardwired that way experienced the reality as a child and either it somehow scratched that itch so the desire went away or at the very least, for most who had that need or want, spanking just became a matter of fact punishment which never transitioned into a sexual desire, since they simply didn't think of it that way? Then, as childhood spankings began to become much less common in society, the people who are hardwired that way were left with this smoldering desire that they didn't understand, which manifested as interest in adult spanking, mostly with erotic tones. If this (admittedly far-fetched) theory is correct, then spankings frequently occurring in schools and homes could have actually de-sexualized spanking for most, and actually kept adult spanking from becoming a thing!"
(revised hypothesis): Same hardwired people as above, still growing up surrounded by spanking. Of those that got spanked with some frequency, it generally scratched the itch or at least satisfied their curiousity, so it ended up de-sexualizing spanking for almost all of them. But for those who either were spanked infrequently or not at all, the thought of spanking became a very sexually exciting thing.
-ZM
ZM,
DeleteI plan to post a working theory later in the week after everyone has had a chance to post. --- ( actually more a hypothesis looking for a theory) based partly on your hypothesis. I hope you and others will take a look and comment on it . We do need some framework for understanding all of this
Alan
Alan:
DeleteDan asked (previous, deleted post --this week's discussion) that we delay posting "apparent pattern," "hypothesis" and "theories" until next week's forum; he said that many members often wait to last one or two days to respond. He said he wanted to give EVERYONE a chance to respond before we did any analysis.
Note, I took down that comment, as it was clearly causing confusion about how much discussion was allowed.
DeleteZM, I find your theory interesting, but I’m not sure why you think the itch went away for most people. How could you know that, since most people are secretive about their sexual fantasies. A desire for real adult DD seems to be fairly rare, but my understanding is that erotic spanking is a pretty mainstream “kink”. Incidentally, school spankings were quite rare where I lived. Hand strapping was the standard form of school corporal punishment. But I did witness a couple of school spankings, boys being spanked by women teachers in both cases. Both incidents gave me a powerful erotic jolt. I was probably more of a budding spanko than most of my classmates, but I looked around, and I could see and feel that the atmosphere was practically electric with shared excitement. The looks on the faces of some of the girls had a strong effect on me. Maybe my own feelings, and the reactions of my classmates, would have been different if spanking had been the usual form of DD. I don’t know. I’m not sure whether my experience supports your thesis or contradicts it.
DeleteDoug
…”the usual form of school punishment” I mean.
DeleteD
ZM, it's an interesting theory that might explain why spanking might become both *less* prevalent but *more* sexualized. Unsatisfied curiosity is a very, very powerful force.
DeleteDoug said: "ZM, I find your theory interesting, but I’m not sure why you think the itch went away for most people. How could you know that, since most people are secretive about their sexual fantasies. A desire for real adult DD seems to be fairly rare, but my understanding is that erotic spanking is a pretty mainstream 'kink'." - Obviously, I have no idea whether the fascination with spanking went away for most people or not. Rather, I was suggesting how actually receiving spankings COULD have worked to actually desexualize it to some or many of the recipients, even as it fanned the flames of those who were inclined to obsess over spanking but didn't actually experience it often, often enough, or hard enough to satisfy their curiosity. Dan summed it up very well: "Unsatisfied curiosity is a very, very powerful force." I can certainly attest to that.
Delete-ZM
It occurs to me that I've experienced a bit of the satisfied curiosity thing in my own journey to DD. There was a brief period in which we experimented with erotic spanking after I had seen a segment on it on HBO's former Real Sex series. That TV show did make me very curious about it, and we then scratched that curiosity itch and . . . it mostly went away. I was still interested enough that I looked for spanking material and found the DWC. But, experiencing the erotic spankings did satisfy most of the curiosity, and whatever was left was nothing close to a compulsion or strong desire, let alone a fetish. When I discovered the DWC, however, that was something of a totally different magnitude. And, that curiosity turned out to be virtually impossible to satisfy, if by satisfaction one means the urge went away.
DeleteOrientation: spankee.
ReplyDeleteGrowing up, spanking was moderately prevalent. It was known but kept mostly private.
Experienced fairly frequently from both parents. Never at school or by third parties.
Developed an interest in being spanked by girls shortly before puberty. Domestic Discipline interest hit in the 20s.
Do you recall what it was that led to the DD interest in particular? I'm very sure that in my 20s I didn't even know DD existed.
DeleteThat's a good question. I used to remember the path better. The biggest influence was frustration with myself, wishing my habits be challenged by an attractive woman. I found light, erotic spanking increasingly silly and insubstantial. The Taken in Hand website played a role.
DeleteI bet I've written a better comment about it in the past. :)
Regarding lower participation, Google's authentication challenges have been more obnoxious. Last week, it was asking for text message confirmation each time before I could see the blog. It might've kept people away.
Honestly, I think frustration with myself was a HUGE factor in my gravitating toward DD. I wonder sometimes whether we over-complicate some of this in attributing it to genetic factors, Freudian-like psycho-sexual factors, etc. I don't doubt those things play a role, but I also think that for some of us there are conscious processes at work including conscious frustration about not living up to our standards or goals.
DeletePretty much a lurker these days, the DD has largely lapsed so I can't add much. However on Friday night we had the wife's brother, sister, and sister-in-law over to watch the rugby and I did something to wind up my wife. She told me very firmly and loudly to behave myself or she'd be giving me a good thrashing. My sister-in-laws face was a picture, followed by slightly uncomfortable laughs all round.
ReplyDelete1. I'm definitely spankee, but would switch if the opportunity arose. Wife is strictly spanker only.
2. I believe very common. My friends were spanked at home and at school, and one boy's parents had a strap hanging on the wall in the lounge ( noticed when I visited and stuck in my mine - I can still see it 50 years later). New Zealand in the seventies.
3. Community was reasonably open but it wasn't really much of a thing until high school. Then canings were compared and discussed.
4. Punished at home a few times... hand spanking or wooden spoon only.
5. Usually spanked by my mother but one notable remembered and scary spanking from father.
6. Yes, was punished at both primary and high school. Primary school was either the strap on the palm or a hand spanking on the backs of legs. High school was exclusively caning.
7. No, was not spanked by others outside home or school.
8. Interest in spanking definitely arose pre-teen. At that stage it was more that I had an unhealthy fear of being spanked.
9. Interest in DD arose in my early forties.
"Interest in spanking definitely arose pre-teen. At that stage it was more that I had an unhealthy fear of being spanked." That's interesting, and I think unique among our respondents so far. Though, it's not too far of my own views as a kid. I don't know that I would go so far as calling it an "unhealthy" fear, but I definitely had a lot of fear about it ever happening at school. Looking back now, I'm not sure though whether it was fear of the paddling itself (though I'm sure that was a big part of it) or the fear of embarrassment about everyone knowing it was going to happen or had happened.
DeleteI'm not sure what it was for me. They certainly loomed large in my mind and in those days it was more a matter of when not if you were going to be spanked. Two instances where I can't remember that they were at all harsh, but can remember nonetheless were that I was strapped on the hand and another leg spanked... but occurred at the front of the class, so maybe embarrassment was a big part of it.
DeleteMerk said: "Interest in spanking definitely arose pre-teen. At that stage it was more that I had an unhealthy fear of being spanked."
DeleteThis kid of rhymes with what I wrote a couple of months back: "As far as I can remember, I had a morbid fascination with spanking since I was a child. Probably this was true of all spankings, but what I remember are school spankings. I was always very interested in hearing the details of friends sent to the principal's office, and there was a deep fear I had of facing that myself someday - which never happened. While I remember all this in retrospect, at the time I don't think I would have considered it a spanking interest, and certainly not in any kinky way since I was still pretty clueless about all things sexual."
I often wonder how it might have changed things had I actually received a paddling or two at school.
"Looking back now, I'm not sure though whether it was fear of the paddling itself (though I'm sure that was a big part of it) or the fear of embarrassment about everyone knowing it was going to happen or had happened." - That is a great question. I am guessing for myself, fear of the pain was at least a significant part of it, but at least as big as that was fear that I would cry. And even bigger than the fear of the pain or my response to pain was the fear of the embarrassment of everyone knowing it was going to happen or had happen, and probably at least equal to that was the embarrassment of everyone knowing I did something to deserve a paddling.
Ironically, much of this that I so feared is exactly what I want more of now; I want to feel the much stronger emotions of having witnesses or even another participant, and I want tears to be a much more common component of spankings I receive.
-ZM
-ZM
I don't really recall fearing that I would cry, as it was just so expected. I do think I've always been *extremely* fearful of being embarrassed or humiliated in front of others. I don't think I had any qualms at all about everyone knowing I did something to deserve a paddling. By junior high especially, I was becoming a bit of a troublemaker, and that was definitely the case by high school. If anything, I kind of got off on the image of being one of the chief corrupters of my fellow youths.
DeleteBut, I totally get what you mean about the irony of so much of what you feared then becoming what you want today. In addition to the enhanced emotions involved with witnesses and tears, I'd add the whole power dynamic of being under another's control. For virtually my entire life, I've absolutely hated the idea of anyone else controlling me, and yet her in my late 50s, I've developed a strong desire for it, at least in the context of DD and FLR.
Merk, I think for me, both were a part of it. As I said in reply to ZM, I've always had major issues with being embarrassed. But, I do think I also feared the pain of corporal punishment, particularly from a paddle. Even today, I always seem to have in my mind the idea that a fraternity-style paddle is a particularly fearsome instrument. I think that must come from the fear of school paddlings, because a paddle was never used at home, and in our adult DD relationship I've found other instruments (the bath brush in particular) to be at least as painful.
DeleteThanks both for your perspectives. I genuinely think that fear was the predominant emotion for me. Particularly by the time that I got to my teens. I was terrified of the cane and at school it was a random ever present threat. I generally behaved, but regardless of that as a 24/7 boarder you could easily do unintentionally do something that was caneworthy. I was only caned at school twice (so not "never" ZM) but the fear of the cane has had a lifelong effect. It is our preferred implement now, and still terrifies me - despite although different it is not necessarily more painful than other well applied instruments.
DeleteAt school it was regularly discussed between the boys and some were caned many many times each year... as a kid this was baffling to me. But they were certainly respected for their ability to be unfazed by the experience - maybe they discovered their kink early...
"I've always been *extremely* fearful of being embarrassed or humiliated in front of others." - Same
Delete"I don't think I had any qualms at all about everyone knowing I did something to deserve a paddling. By junior high especially, I was becoming a bit of a troublemaker, and that was definitely the case by high school. If anything, I kind of got off on the image of being one of the chief corrupters of my fellow youths." - I too caused troubles, but somehow (almost miraculously) I almost always evaded consequences. Consequently, I kind of viewed myself as "above the law" a bit and generally took prid in my ability to dodge bullets. So, getting publicly called on something I did and having everyone know I was punished for my actions would have greatly hurt my feeling of invincibility that I so treasured. I don't think I was afraid that I would be ashamed of my actions so much as I couldn't stand the thought of others knowing that I was just as subject to authority as everyone else.
-ZM
That's a good distinction
Delete"maybe they discovered their kink early..." haha!
DeleteI started out fearing the paddle at school. It then became apparent to me that everyone was getting paddled at school. Of course, with the exception of the goody-two shoes. I then stopped fearing the paddle. I was one of the few that never cried. My teachers paddled hard and must of been pissed that I showed little emotion. I was going through the steps. At home was a different story, I was embarrassed by my actions. I hate disappointing my Mother. We were generally spanked on the bare bottom. This was taught on the pulpit believe it or not. I would always cry from a strapping from my Mother. Tears would flow freely. I doubt that will ever occur during our DD. I never feel embarrassed or humiliated by my wife. I also don’t feel that I do enough wrong to feel that need to release if that makes any sense. When ZM describes the chief corrupter of fellow youth, that describes my best friend and I. I found great ways to hide or sneak around and get away with my actions. I was very good at not getting caught doing anything foolish.
DeleteT
I have no problem believing it came from the pulpit. Someone else mentioned being spanked by their pastor. That didn't surprise me either.
DeleteThe "corrupter of fellow youth" comment was mine. ZM quoted it approvingly. Sounds like the three of us played pretty similar roles and suffered a similar lack of consequences. In my case, it wasn't so much that I didn't get caught. It was pretty openly known much of the time. But, my mother was never much of a disciplinarian and by high school wasn't even trying, while my dad more or less approved and took the position that he wasn't going to get concerned unless and until I got myself into some kind of trouble that I couldn't get myself out of.
"... the fear of the cane has had a lifelong effect. It is our preferred implement now, and still terrifies me - despite although different it is not necessarily more painful than other well applied instruments." - My wife loves her canes, but I am less enthusiastic. I agree that the cane is not necessarily more painful than other instruments, but the cane is still unique in multiple aspects such as the type of pain it produces, how quiet it is, and so on.
DeleteOne thing that I just realized about the cane is that it can be the perfect tool to solve one of the dilemmas I have often pondered. The dilemma is that not every misdeed is worthy of a full-fledged, long, hard spanking, yet at the same time, for a spanking to even be a real punishment, it has to be sufficiently hard and long to not only be almost unbearably painful at the time but also leave at least some lasting reminder of the spanking.
The cane can solve this problem completely. Even a single well applied cane stroke with leave a burning line of fire across your bottom, and the effects will be felt for days. But at the same time, more cane strokes ramps up the whole effect dramatically. So even a single cane stroke can be used as an effective punishment for something minor and will be felt enough to be remembered for days, yet many cane strokes will result in something that will be much more unpleasant both at the time it is administered and also in the days that follow. I love paddles, but I don't think they can be used as effectively in this manner; it may be possible to hit hard enough that one paddle stroke would be felt for days, but then it would also seem like a bigger punishment since so much surface area of your bottom is hurting. At least for my wife and the way she uses the paddle, the punishment comes not so much from individual blows, but rather from the cumulative effect.
-ZM
That's really interesting. Anne has recently reviewed Aunt Kay's guide to caning and has been practicing on a pillow. We'll see . . .
DeleteDefinitely ZM, one good cane stroke on a bare bottom will leave a welt that will be lumpy and sore to touch or in the shower for a couple of days. Keep adding strokes and you now have marks that will remain for more than a week, and more than six strokes will inevitably cross previous strokes... at this point you have deep bruising that will be felt every time you sit or move for more than a week. Having said all that, I find that a light paddle can make me climb the wall at the time... all slap, pain, but no thud or sensation...
DeleteDan, key thing for Anne is that she must take a large back swing and bring the cane forward as hard as she possibly cane. There is no such thing as an effective lighter stroke of the cane... they are just annoying and do not provide what the cane should deliver. If she can add some wrist motion so much the better.
DeleteWell, Dan, maybe your previous curiosity, my comments (re "short synthetic canes") and Anne's growing interest my prove the old adage of "being careful what your [curious] about."
DeleteIn my experience, a woman has never, ever really known her DD power and authority until she starts using a cane -- it's transformative. Likewise, a many never fully understands a woman's power and authority until he is at the opposite end of that cane.
-----------------------------------------------
If we are talking about "pointers for use" of canes (e.g., "practice") many wives (including my own) do find "horizontal" or "vertical" use of pillows for practice excellent training for aim and technique. However, there is one additional step that really helped my wife build accuracy and speed . . .
My wife combined an old pillow with thin (1/4" wide) piece of red poly-ribbon. She fabric-glued that ribbon in a strait line onto the face of the pillow: A "target" to aim for, and give her immediate feedback on her swing with every stroke. I didn't take long until she was hitting that ribbon every single time. Then she started practicing always hitting the pillow 3/8" to 1/2" below that ribbon (later, above the ribbon); practicing laying down strokes withing hitting those previous, bright red "weals" (that I'd soon be displaying.)
Don't worry, you DON"T have to thank me later. ;-)
Donn, those short canes really don't have any appeal to me. I don't really understand how they could be very effective. Maybe they are, but it's hard to envision how in comparison to the traditional length.
DeleteMerk, I think that has been the problem on the few occasions we tried to use the cane in the past. I think concerns about aim and accuracy led to a swing that was too light and pretty much totally ineffective.
Yes, we started there too. These days she is much better but I don't think that she gets much movement of the wrist, however even without that she is leaving very painful welts. She answered a question that it is also her favourite implement.
DeleteDonn wrote,” (…when) she starts using a cane -- it's transformative."
DeleteIf you will, please elaborate on this. What is transforming about using a cane compared to other tools?
Thanks
Alan
Hi Alan,
DeleteI of course am not Donn, but since he hasn't responded yet, I am going to hazard a guess as to why he said that when she starts using the cane, it is "transformative." Sorry Donn, but I am a habitual over-thinker, so I just can't keep myself from speculating!
I am going on a couple of things that Merk said above, together with some personal insight: "I was only caned at school twice...but the fear of the cane has had a lifelong effect. It is our preferred implement now, and still terrifies me..."
One common thread that I have noticed this week among commenters and our early exposure to spanking is the word "fear." Most of us were somewhere between being somewhat scared of being spanked and being terrified. While each couple's DD or FLR relationship varies, over the years I have mostly heard that we are not particularly afraid of upcoming spankings. We might feel some butterflies in our stomach or something like that, but not the deep knot of fear. There are many reasons that we are not necessarily as afraid of being spanked as adults, including but certainly not limited to:
- more emotional maturity
- more ability to see things from a wider perspective
- higher pain thresholds
- less humiliation or embarrassment (due to the generally private nature of adult spankings)
- more feeling of control (since even consensual non-consent is still consensual, and we COULD always stop it if we wanted to), confidence that our partners
- a whole lifetime of experience telling us we will survive
and so on and so on...
- despite although different it is not necessarily more painful than other well applied instruments."
Whatever the reason, our wives might be able to command respect, but not necessarily instill immediate, real fear. As CalSpanking mentioned a few weeks ago, many of us who are wanting this are at least partly motivated by wanting to feel strong emotions. There is nothing that is stronger than fear. Sometimes, the thing I want (and at the same time don't want) the most is to feel that visceral fear that spanking used to instill in me. I think that is at least part of what makes me want the humiliation of having witnesses so much, because I am afraid of that.
The cane is able to cause real fear, at least if your wife knows how to use it properly. Why is that different than other tools? Especially since even Merk said "despite although different it is not necessarily more painful than other well applied instruments." The difference is that all other spanking tools - except maybe in vary rare circumstances like being spanked by a tennis champion - rely on repetition to cause their maximum pain. Also Merk: "one good cane stroke on a bare bottom will leave a welt that will be lumpy and sore to touch or in the shower for a couple of days." What other tool can do that?
The reason that matters is because if your wife knows how to cane properly, it sort of becomes a binary affair. Even one stroke is going to cause pain that will last for days, and from the moment you hear the first whistle of the cane, there is no turning back on that. With other spanking implements, she can always decide to go easy on you and end early, but once she decides to use the cane, days of pain are ensured and the only question is "how many stripes?"
Anyway, at the risk of being entirely off base, the cane's ability to inspire fear is the most likely reason I came up with for Donn's statement: "In my experience, a woman has never, ever really known her DD power and authority until she starts using a cane -- it's transformative. Likewise, a man never fully understands a woman's power and authority until he is at the opposite end of that cane."
Having said all this, I can't wait to hear the real reason!
-ZM
Hi Alan:
DeleteSorry for the delay in response. I've been busy and only last night noticed your query.
I used the phrase "transformative" in two contexts.
For men, I have had extensive personal experience, and have spoken with and observed other men with experiences in BDSM contexts.
I don't know your personal experience receiving the cane, but my experience closely matches others who I've spoken with: The "OVERWHELMING INTENSITY" of even one high-speed slash of the cane is so far beyond any other implement's intensity (that I've ever experienced), that I really don't have words for comparison. There is a very slight delay (1/5 - 1/4 second), immediately after a slash lands, between a slight "click" feeling, and then the EXPLOSION OF PAIN, pain that seems to radiate throughout your entire body, from toes to scalp -- pain you previously would not have believed was possible from a single stroke of any implement.
The "transformative" part for a man is his realization of the overwhelming power a woman has, with a cane and good technique, to administer punishments at levels way beyond his ability to personally control himself. The realization that a woman could, for example if you were restrained, rapidly (~60-80 seconds) drive you into thoughtless frenzy and hysterics - total animalistic panic. The "transformation" is a man's realization of just how much power the woman has with her cane; the fear she can easily invoke in you (even from simple vocal threats) after your first "real introduction" to her power.
For women, I have to base my perspective on my own wife's comments and those of other females I've personally met (again in BDSM contexts).
A frequent comment I've heard from women is "how easy" it is to reach such extreme levels of punishment. Unlike most other implements, where they might have to exert significant energy and muscular efforts, often over 4 - 10 minutes, "serious levels of exertion," a rapid exertion of even 20-30 high-speed slashes of a cane are relatively miniscule. Then there is the time factor: A very strong punishment that it might take a woman 4-10 minutes of serious exertion to achieve (say with a paddle or strap), can be easily exceeded, grossly exceeded, in only 60-70 seconds with 12 slashes of her cane.
Women, once they master the cane, have a transformation of their own understanding of their power: Of their power to inflict rapid, excruciating punishment; power to instill intimidating fear, real FEAR, in any man who has previously experienced even one serious caning. That realization transforms a woman's attitude, and her self confidence.
Others, particularly other women here on the forum, may have their own perspectives, but these have been my own observations, from "feeling" and "talking" with others on both ends of the cane.
Dan: Once again, a little help -- Google's "SPAM monster," once again, canned my answer to Alan's query.
Delete(I really wish I knew of could figure out WHY Google so objects to some of my posts, and not others. Makes you "rhyme nor reason" to me!)
ZM, as I've said, we haven't used the cane very often and, when Anne did try it, for whatever reason it wasn't very effective. So, I can't claim much expertise on what the can might bring in the hands of someone who was more experienced with it. But, is it really true that all the other common instruments rely on repetition to bring about a fearsome effect? For me, hard wooden instruments like the bath brush hurt like hell from the very first swat, and their effect actually diminishes over time as my butt inevitably numbs. I do think leather instruments can take some time for the full effect to build, but that hasn't really been my experience with most heavier wooden instruments.
DeleteI agree Dan, I really struggle with hard wooden instruments. I don't like them at all and they do hurt like hell from the get go. If she wants to make me dance and panic a rapidly applied wooden instrument works well. I don't know though, if she stops after one... do you have a mark that will last for days. I haven't experienced that. I understand your numbing comment, I've experienced that with a wooden paddle (and I'm glad to say that I haven't experienced a bath brush). With caning I haven't experienced enough strokes to get to numb, but certainly they get slightly easier to take later (I assume endorphins).
DeleteTo ZM's comments on fear... I think that I also seek to relive the fear that I experienced as a youngster in spite of the things that I know as an adult. In that mindset, I would prefer to be restrained when I'm caned, made to wait, and not know how many that I'm to get... all these add to my apprehension.
"I don't know though, if she stops after one... do you have a mark that will last for days?" - certainly not the way my wife swings the paddle. She actually hits very hard, but still nothing like a high school principal using full force. I am guessing that one of those paddle strokes actually could leave a mark that lasts for days and at least some soreness.
DeleteWood paddles do hurt incredibly from the first whack, especially since my wife seems to not understand the whole idea of warm-ups... :) But very quickly endorphins start to kick in, which at least helps to soften the pain a bit, and if she continues with the heavy paddles at least, pretty soon I am so numb that most implements don't hurt as much as they normally would. If she continues to spank at that point, it doesn't increase the punishment all that much in the moment, but it can help leave long-lasting soreness, which overall can make for a much better learning experience.
I agree that with the cane, numbness doesn't seem to help out at all, since the stripes are spread out. Also, because of the intensity Donn mentioned above, the cane still hurts pretty bad even after my bottom is numb enough that it is immune to other implements.
"...I would prefer to be restrained when I'm caned, made to wait, and not know how many that I'm to get..." - That would certainly instill fear in me!
-ZM
I think I see a pattern developing in these answers; a pattern that agrees with some previous discussions here in the forum over past years.
ReplyDeleteI don't want to "bias" or "skew" members answers, so maybe it's best wait to discuss any "overall pattern" to these answers until the final few days (Fri, Sat) of this week.
However, I am curious, and maybe future responders (an any past respondents) might include:
(1) The "decades" that accompanied there "youth" (e.g., 60's, 70's, 80's, etc.); and
(2) The primary (or range of) geographic locations of their youth ("UK," "Oceania", US, Canada, etc.)?
I agree, it will be interesting if we can correlate to location next week. TG
DeleteIt's OK. Honestly, my preference not to try to come up with a grand theory before everyone has had a chance to respond is probably going to just cause confusion.
DeleteMy answers to the questionnaire:
ReplyDeleteWhat is your DD orientation?
Answer: Spankee (But I could potentially switch).
How prevalent was spanking in the community you grew up in?
Answer: Very prevalent. (That was the 60’s).
How open were parents and kids in your community about spanking, including talking openly about the subject and/or spanking in public?
Answer: Very open talking about it; moderately open about spanking in public
How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home?
Answer: frequently
If so, who was the primary disciplinarian?
Answer: Both mother and father. My mother more until I was 6 or 7, shifting more to my father when I was 7 or 8, and my father exclusively by the time I was in middle school (approaching puberty).
Were you subject to corporal punishment at school?
Answer: Yes.
Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school?
Answer: No, though I think there was a realistic threat that it could happen.
At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked?
Answer: pre-teen.
At what age did you develop an interest in DD or DWC-style spankings?
Answer: 30’s.
Doug
Doug, was there something specific that led you to the DD or DWC-style spankings in your 30s?
DeleteI think it was the Internet. I had spanking fantasies from early childhood. I engaged in a bit of play spanking as a teenager, most notably making bets where the winner got to spank the loser. When I got married in my mid 20’s, the idea of giving my wife the power to discipline me would have seemed ridiculous to me, even though I still had spanking fantasies. When I got my first home computer with Internet in my mid 30’s, I searched “spanking” out of curiosity, and the online spanking community blew my mind. I was hooked. But I didn’t immediately think of actual real life DD. I think that it was the Disciplinary Wives Club website that made me realize that wives disciplining their husbands was a real thing for some people. Then I discovered some other FLR-themed websites that talked about wife led DD. The thing that really turns me on about DD is the idea that it isn’t fully consensual because it is based on the wife having real authority over her husband, the way parents and teachers used to have real authority over kids when I was growing up. In my fantasies, which began when I was a kid, spankings were always non consensual, like the spankings I got for real. (I hated the pain and embarrassment of real spankings, but for some reason I eroticized those things in my fantasies). Once the idea of DD was planted, I couldn’t stop thinking and fantasizing about it, but it took me a while to bring it up to my wife because I was embarrassed by my need for it. It still embarrasses me a bit. I sometimes wonder whether my desire to be punished like a little boy by my wife is Oedipal. I know Freud’s theory isn’t taken very seriously anymore, but I have to wonder about the reason I need DD, the more “maternal” in format the better.
DeleteDoug
"The thing that really turns me on about DD is the idea that it isn’t fully consensual because it is based on the wife having real authority over her husband, the way parents and teachers used to have real authority over kids when I was growing up."
DeleteI know realize that's a very big element for me, too. Though, I'm not sure how much I appreciated that at the time I discovered the DWC. Back, then, I think that my primary attraction was to the whole authenticity thing, i.e. that the DWC involved real spankings for real misbehavior. I think, on a more intellectual level (as opposed to gut level), I thought that it would help equalize an imbalanced relationship, as I tended to have a big, dominant presence while my wife had issues asserting herself (other than in passive-aggressive ways). But, I don't think at that time I really got just how much the authority I wanted my wife to wield in order to balance out our respective power was also a desire for it be employed in a way that felt like it was something I couldn't argue with overcome, i.e. how much I need it to be something that--like parental spankings--was going to happen even if I really, really didn't want it.
I agree with Doug how hard it is to sometimes talk to ones wife about it. It goes back to the, “I can’t bring myself to ask for one, even when I need one.” I wonder about the whole Freud thing as well. Dan, it’s also pretty apparent that almost everyone on here has been spanked, witnessed spanking, talked about it as kids, ect. There is no one who hasn’t had any type of interaction with zero spanking around them. I think it boils down to the age, race, school, religion, and area where you grew up.
DeleteT
Almost everyone. TG is the major exception so far, though Norton didn't have much exposure either. And, given how prevalent it was in society until recently, I'd be surprised if pretty much anyone over the age of 30 in the US had NO personal exposure to it, even if they never experienced it personally.
Delete"Dan, it’s also pretty apparent that almost everyone on here has been spanked, witnessed spanking, talked about it as kids, ect. There is no one who hasn’t had any type of interaction with zero spanking around them."
Delete"And, given how prevalent it was in society until recently, I'd be surprised if pretty much anyone over the age of 30 in the US had NO personal exposure to it, even if they never experienced it personally."
Exactly right. The challenge with a poll like this is very easy to see correlation: "all the people into this were surrounded by spanking during their formative years." But correlation is not the same as causation, nor does it even imply cause. The correlation is a sure thing, because the people on this blog are in some way into spanking in at least some form, and the majority are from the USA and over 40 years old, so almost all are going to say they were surrounded by spanking as a child.
The problem is, if we were to ask the same questions to the exact same demographic group, but those who are not interested in spanking, their answers to
all but the first two and last two questions are likely going to be exactly the same.
So, the lack of a control group (i.e. most of the general population who are not into spanking or DD), could easily lead us to incorrect conclusions.
-ZM
I think we would all acknowledge that this is only an informal poll and any conclusions certainly cannot be considered definitive. But - it will likely lead to an interesting discussion. --al
DeleteCheck out my planned post at end of week that offers a framework to think about all of it including Al's comments and ZM'S.
DeleteAlan
ZM (and Dan):
DeleteI think I would have to disagree about the ubiquity of "spanking exposure" among residents of the US (and Canada) who are over 30-40 years old.
My own experiences were that there was little if any (known) spanking among my friends before I was roughly ten years old. That period was spent in the upper-Midwest, and partly in the Northeast United States.
There seems to be a very high correlation between (1) spanking in homes/churches, and (2) practice of spanking in public schools. To my personal knowledge, there was no (or very little) spanking in public schools in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Norther Illinois, spanking in Wisconsin, Minnesota during the 1960's-70's. From what I've read, it was very similar in the northeast states like New York, Connecticut, Main, Massachusetts, etc. This is not to say lack of school spanking perfectly predicts what occurs in some homes in those regions. But I could easily accepts and understand that many children and teenagers ONLY exposure to spanking in such communities would be "rumors" and exposure in literature / mass-media.
We may be projecting our own early experiences onto large groups of other residents of other regions who were not exposed in childhood / adolescence, never developed either a spanking or discipline "kink," are are thus not part of our group here in this blog.
(I hope no one considers the natural implication of these statements to be "premature" analysis of the data still incoming.)
"The challenge with a poll like this is very easy to see correlation: "all the people into this were surrounded by spanking during their formative years." But correlation is not the same as causation, nor does it even imply cause. The correlation is a sure thing, because the people on this blog are in some way into spanking in at least some form, and the majority are from the USA and over 40 years old, so almost all are going to say they were surrounded by spanking as a child."
DeleteVery true. It's funny how little of what I learned in college is useful to me, or even remembered, today - but the lesson that correlation doesn't equal causation is one I use all the time.
Answers that I believe J. would have given if he were here:
ReplyDelete1) He was solely a spankee
2) Spanking was very prevalent
3) People around him were quite open, as far as I recall him saying
4) Yes, he was subject to corporal punishment at home
5) It was overwhelmingly done by his mother
6) Yes, he received corporal punishment at school
7) I don't recall him mentioning spankings from others
8) He started developing an interest in being spanked particularly when he hit puberty in his early teens
9) He developed an interest in F/M DD and similar things as he passed to the second half of his teens
L.
Thanks, L.
DeleteDan,
DeleteDid any answers strike you as being out the ordinary?
L.
L:
DeleteJust a reminder: Dan's question were directed at BOTH husbands and Disciplinary Wives. It's helpful to everyone to know how both genders developed their interests in disciplinary spankings. (Please see the responses to these questions from "Miss E".)
• What is your DD orientation? switch
ReplyDelete• How prevalent was spanking in the community/communities you grew up in? very prevalent
• How open were parents and kids in your community about spankings, including talking openly about the subject and/or spanking in public? very open
• How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home? frequently
• If you were subject to corporal punishment at home, who was the primary disciplinarian? both mother and father equally
• Were you subject to corporal punishment at school? no
• Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school? no
• At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked? pre-teen
• At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings? pre-teen
I listed switch, although my preference is to be spanked.
Thanks, David.
DeleteOrientation: Spankee
ReplyDeletePrevalence in the community: I would say that it was moderately prevalent, at least in our circle.
Openness: It varied, but we always knew which kids got it at home. My mother wasn't shy about telling others that she believed in it. I wasn't spanked in public, but threatened with others present. On a few occasions, I was taken into another room and given one.
Frequency: It was a fairly regular occurrence with me, as it was my mom's preferred method of discipline.
Disciplinarian: As you can tell, that was my mom. My father left much of the parenting to her anyway and then they separated and divorced when I was an adolescent.
School: My school didn't use corporal punishment.
Relatives and others: Not really. I recall a few swats from my aunt, but not real spankings. That same aunt watched me fairly often and if I misbehaved for her, I'd get a spanking from my mom.
Interest in spanking: I was always interested in the subject, especially other kids' spankings, but it definitely took off as a teenager.
Interest in DD: That happened in my 20s. My wife was interested in my experience growing up and that led to further discussion. It was clearly my idea, but I was surprised by her openness to trying it.
Kevin
"My mother wasn't shy about telling others that she believed in it." In my case, it would have been odd for any parent to announce they were for it, as pretty much all of them were. Had anyone said they were against it, they probably would have been labeled some kind of weird hippie heretic.
Delete"On a few occasions, I was taken into another room and given one." While I recall very few details from any childhood spankings, I do have some very dim memories of being taken to a "cry room" or outside for being disruptive during church, and I'm sure those involved at least a few swats and a strong lecture about how to behave.
Al here:
ReplyDeleteWhat is your DD orientation? (spanker/spankee/switch)
---Spankee
How prevalent was spanking in the community/communities you grew up in? (very prevalent/moderately prevalent/not prevalent at all)
---Very prevalent (Deep South of the 1960's and 1970's).
How open were parents and kids in your community about spankings, including talking openly about the subject and/or spanking in public? (very open/moderately open/it was known but kept mostly/it was not discussed or performed in public at all)
----Very open, especially among the parents. Kids might not necessarily volunteer they got a specific whooping, but certainly we all knew it was part of all our lives.
How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home? (frequently/a few times but not regularly/not at all)
--- Fairly frequently as a small child, but not at all after about age eight (primarily due to family issues) - with the exception of the one memorable spanking by my aunt at age ten, which was probably what imprinted the attraction to F/M spanking.
If you were subject to corporal punishment at home, who was the primary disciplinarian? (mother/father/both mother and father equally)
---My mom. My father became ill shortly after I was born and passed when I was young.
Were you subject to corporal punishment at school? (yes/no)
---Paddling was very common in the schools of the Deep South back in the day - but I was never spanked, being a "well behaved good student" (and when I wasn't, I was sneaky enough to get away with it).
Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school? (yes/no)
---Only once - by my aunt when I was ten (mentioned above).
At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older)
---Probably at age 12 when puberty struck, and the memory of the otk paddling by my aunt in my underwear (pulled up into my crack) morphed into a sexual fantasy - which was eventually projected on to other women as well.
At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older)
---My generalized interest in F/M spanking became focused on F/M DD in my thirties when the Net came online for the general public. As I began to read spanking stories on the Usenet spanking group, I found myself most intrigued by the stories that featured wives spanking their husband for disciplinary and punishment purposes. This specific inclination cemented when I encountered the DWC website.
--al
"Whooping" is definitely a word that outs one as being from the South!
Delete"Paddling was very common in the schools of the Deep South back in the day - but I was never spanked, being a "well behaved good student" (and when I wasn't, I was sneaky enough to get away with it)." That pretty much sums up exactly how I navigated through schools where paddling was common but without getting one myself.
Your last paragraph kind of reflects my own journey to F/m DD, but mine was a much, much more compressed timeframe. In my late 30s, a segment on adult spanking on the old HBO "Real Sex" series sparked an interest that I'd never felt up until that point. It interested me enough that I started looking for spanking-related content on-line, including the Usenet group you mentioned. Though, in my case the Web had become a thing by that point and there were some websites devoted to spanking. In the course of that exploration, I found the DWC. While your journey from generalized interest to DD-specific took decades, mine was less than a year. Probably less than 6 months.
What is your DD orientation? (spanker/spankee/switch) - Absolutely spanker, at least with regard to DD spanking. If my wife wanted to receive play spankings, I could do that, but certainly not disciplinary.
ReplyDeleteHow prevalent was spanking in the community/communities you grew up in? (very prevalent/moderately prevalent/not prevalent at all) - Very prevalent.
How open were parents and kids in your community about spankings, including talking openly about the subject and/or spanking in public? (very open/moderately open/it was known but kept mostly/it was not discussed or performed in public at all) - I would say somewhere between very open and moderately open. Spankings were often mentioned by both adults and children, and certainly whenever anyone got a spanking, that was talked about by everyone, including the unlucky recipient. Most spankings happened in private, but it was certainly not uncommon to see children receive a few swats in public, and it wasn't unthinkable for even more extended spankings to be given in public (or at least not completely private) places. Overall, it wasn't that everyone was so open about talking about or giving spankings, but certainly there was no real effort to hide it.
How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home? (frequently/a few times but not regularly/not at all) - a few times, but not regularly
If you were subject to corporal punishment at home, who was the primary disciplinarian? (mother/father/both mother and father equally) - mother, I think. Interestingly, the only couple of times I remember being spanked are when my dad spanked me, but there I don't even remember the spankings but rather the moments leading up to the spanking. I know my mom spanked me from time to time, but don't remember any spankings specifically.
Were you subject to corporal punishment at school? (yes/no) - subject to? Yes, absolutely. Received? No.
Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school? (yes/no) - probably by an aunt, but again I don't remember
At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older) - I wrote more about this in an earlier comment. I had a morbid fascination from childhood, but I didn't recognize it as a sexual thing until puberty. I remember the exact moment I saw spanking as a sexual thing for the first time, and since that day, spanking has occupied my thoughts at least most days of my life.
At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older) - 30's, but that is because that's when I discovered the DWC, and because I hadn't been getting the spankings I thought I wanted, so hadn't yet discovered that I really wanted something different than I always thought I wanted.
-ZM
"mother, I think. Interestingly, the only couple of times I remember being spanked are when my dad spanked me, but there I don't even remember the spankings but rather the moments leading up to the spanking. I know my mom spanked me from time to time, but don't remember any spankings specifically."
DeleteThat's almost exactly the case with me. I do have a very dim memory of a time I wandered off from the house to play with an older boy up the street, without telling my mother. I am 99% sure I received a spanking from her for it, but like you and your spankings from your dad, what I recall is the context preceding the spanking and not the spanking itself.
And me Dan. The memorable spanking that I referred to from my father was that I ran from him, I remember his anger, and I remember exactly where he caught me. I can't remember any details of the spanking itself. He was a big man with farmer's work hardened big hands so I guess that it wasn't pleasant.
Delete"farmer's work hardened big hands" -- sounds like we had similar upbringings with father's with similarly hard-earned physical attributes
Delete1. What is your DD orientation?
ReplyDeleteFormer M/F, now firmly F/M
2. How prevalent was spanking in the community you grew up in?
Moderately prevalent
_________________________________
3. How open were parents and kids in your community openly discussing the subject and/or spanking publicly?
It was implicit but mainly was not discussed or performed in public
__________________________________
4. How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home? Frequently
_________________________________________________________
5. Who was the primary disciplinarian at home?
Mother
____________________________________________
6. Were you subject to corporal punishment at school?
Subject to -Yes Actually spanked --No.
__________________________________________________
7. Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school?
No
__________________________________________________
8. At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked?
Spanking was of intense interest as early as second grade. Adult interest (M/F) in the very early 20’s evolved into F/M by the late 20’s
____________________________________________________
9. At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings?
I was in my very late 20s after a disciplinary spanking from a girlfriend.
ALAN
* What is your DD orientation? (spanker/spankee/switch)
ReplyDeleteDefinitely spanker.
* How prevalent was spanking in the community/communities you grew up in? (very prevalent/moderately prevalent/not prevalent at all)
I grew up in an ultra conservative community so it was very prevalent for parents to spank.
* How open were parents and kids in your community about spankings, including talking openly about the subject and/or spanking in public? (very open/moderately open/it was known but kept mostly/it was not discussed or performed in public at all)
They were moderately open about spanking, pretty much everyone did it, but the actual spanking was generally private.
* How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home? (frequently/a few times but not regularly/not at all)
Quite frequently. Especially when I was young.
* If you were subject to corporal punishment at home, who was the primary disciplinarian? (mother/father/both mother and father equally)
I remember it was both my mom and dad but more often my mom.
* Were you subject to corporal punishment at school? (yes/no)
No.
* Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school? (yes/no)
No.
* At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older)
I remember having an extreme interest in spanking around the age of five. I would feel excited to see or hear my male friends get spanked.
* At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older)
I didn’t know bdsm, flr, dd relationships existed until I was in my late teens, but I knew then that that was the only kind of marriage that I wanted.
Miss E.
DeleteYou are definitely in the minority.
It's interesting that the one woman we have who initiated the spanking-DD aspects of her relationships has a profile very like most of the men who are recipients, including an interest in it that began in the pre-teen years.
DeleteOnly with respect to being a female spanker who initiated that kind of relationship is she in the minority. In every other respect, her history of association with and interest in spanking seems almost identical to most of the male respondents.
DeleteDan,
DeleteI admit I perceive it to be relatively uncommon for an interest to start aged 5.
L.
I can trace my fascination with spanking back to second grade
DeleteAlan
I agree, I find it interesting that many of us had similar childhoods regarding corporal punishment but from there it diverged to different outcomes and timelines.
Delete“I admit I perceive it to be relatively uncommon for an interest to start aged 5.”
DeleteIt may be uncommon, but I don’t think it’s unheard of. I think I was younger than that. One of my earliest memories is of my sister, who was about a year and a half older, giving me a play spanking, pretending to be my mother. I might have been 4 at the time. That may have been the point of origin of my interest in spanking. But maybe my interest was innate, just waiting to be activated. I don’t know.
Doug
How about this for a theory? It relates to those who developed an interest in spanking at a very young age, say, below age 10. The theory is that spankees grew up feeling they had control in their lives, and wanted a loss of control as a variation from that-- because variety is the spice of life. Conversely, spankers grew up feeling they did not have control, and wanted to have control as a variation from that -- because variety is the spice of life. Miss E, do you think there is any truth to that? Or is it just another dumb theory?
DeleteCal, I think there definitely could be some truth to that, especially in my case. I’ve always thought it was a bit of the chicken and the egg situation for me as I was raised in an environment where I was constantly told that women had certain roles and could not be dominant or leaders. This always bothered me and made me feel like I couldn’t be myself. Likewise, I was always more attracted to what I know now were submissive men or men being spanked. Whether or not that was a direct result of my childhood, or just my nature regardless, I don’t think I’ll ever fully know.
DeleteMiss E wrote: “Whether or not that was
Delete1. a direct result of my childhood
2. or just my nature ...?”
How about "all of the above" for the answer?
Alan
Regarding how common it is for an interest to develop before age 5, the simple answer is, I don't know. But, it seems a clear majority of respondents have identified their spanking interest as happening pre-teen. Since I don't have a spanking fetish per se, I don't have a lot of personal insight. I do recommend that people who are interested read Jillian Keenan's book Sex With Shakespeare. Although I can't relate to it personally, I found her description of being hyper-aware of spanking from an extremely early age and how, for her, spanking IS her sexuality, fascinating. It gave me a better understanding of how a true fetish works while making me even more clear in my own mind that I don't have one.
Delete1. What is your DD orientation?
ReplyDeleteI’m the spanked husband in FLR marriage of 35+ years
2. How prevalent was spanking in the community you grew up in?
Prevalent - went to public schools early and then Catholic schools after that and paddling was used.. Parents and kids talked about it frequently.
_________________________________
3. How open were parents and kids in your community openly discussing the subject and/or spanking publicly?
Talked about in public but performed in mostly performed in private
__________________________________
4. How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home? Not frequently but occasionally a few swats over clothes when I was young.
_________________________________________________________
5. Who was the primary disciplinarian at home?
Mother but dad would too when he was around. Never anything memorable.
____________________________________________
6. Were you subject to corporal punishment at school?
Paddling was used - but I did not get paddled at school.
__________________________________________________
7. Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school?
No but was threatened with it by relatives and neighbors.
__________________________________________________
8. At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked?
Early - like in kindergarten.
____________________________________________________
9. At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings?
I discovered that spanking was something people did in a relationship by reading letters in Penthouse when I was about 12 or 13 and always wanted it from then on. I never brought it up with anyone until I did with my wife once we were married. She didn’t get it at first and it took multiple attempts to explain it. I wrote out my desires and all the background out in a letter for her to read about 10 years into our marriage once more became available to read on the Internet and she agreed to try it more once the depth of my interest / longing was spelled out in black and white. We’ve tried it on and off for the next 25 years or so with decidedly mixed results. Considering her starting point (which was zero on this topic and sexuality in general) , we’ve made progress - but it took the kids leaving the house for it to settle in more consistently. It’s just not a natural mindset for her although she likes the benefits of being the boss. We’ve both made adjustments and it’s helped us build better communication over the years - it’s not perfect and never will be but it’s better.
I would say our starting place was similar to yours - I was highly motivated to try DD while my wife had zero understanding of it until I raised the issue. Of course, I myself had zero understanding of it until I discovered the Disciplinary Wives Club, and I found it just days before bringing the idea to her. Over the years, it's clear I've always had the stronger interest, but her own interest definitely has grown significantly over the years and become more independent of mine.
DeleteMy wife has made a number of comments here. Even with the benefit of anonymity, I am reluctant to discuss/ admit my very long history of wrestling with my submissive role. I grew up in the midwest US. I was never spanked by my parents as they were detached owing to the challenges of just putting food on the table, I was by age7 a free agent, At sge 10 I was spanked nsre bottom otk with a hair brush by the woman next door. I was paddled once at school st age 12 by the woman principal who before the paddling washed my mouth either sosp for calling a teacher a cow. Noth experiences left me feeling a sense of relief once the immediate effects of the spankings subsided. My strongest reaction was concerned others knowing .Shortly after the school paddling I began to masterbate about the spankings. I was fascinated by sny mention or reference to. Spanking, at 20 against the strongest objections of both of our parents we married, My new mother in law found good reason to confront me and after a calm be detailed scolding i agreed to what she called an attitude adjustment, The moment she appeared with a short leather strap in hand I went weak in the knees. The spaking that followed left an impression that has lasted more than 50 years. My wife uses that strap on our DD now. I am still modt worried of being exposed
ReplyDeleteI always found your story about being spanked by your mother in law, both almost unbelievable and fascinating. I never had the opportunity to meet mine. She had passed. She was an alpha female who paddled my wife and her siblings at the drop of a hat. My wife does not like being spanked but has no issues strapping me. I am similar in that I became fascinated and pleasured myself at the thought of spanking at puberty. I think being paddled by a female teacher in my youth drove the obsession, along with the hundreds i observed others receive(overheard).
DeleteT
Let me assure you that we she confronted me I thought it was unbelievable. As she listed my offenses I was feeling really guilty. She made a point of saying she waited until we were alone to avoid embarrassing me . When she said I needed to learn a lesson I thought for a minute the scolding would be the end of it. Then she said when she was done with me I would never offend her again . I nodded and kind of agreed. When she told me to go to my wife’s childhood room and wait for her I did as instructed.More than 50 years later I think of this nearly daily. Why did I comply? There was absolutely nothing erotic, nothing. I was careful not to be alone with her again.
DeleteMiss C’s Hubby:
ReplyDeleteYes, I agree. I think I am myself both sexually and domestically submissive, or at the very least I very much prefer strong female leadership in both of these contexts.
It seems like way to many members of the general public, and unfortunately too many women who might otherwise be willing to consider a DD relationship, have been propagandized through the patriarchy's control of mass-media (television and films) in this country. One could understand why a lot of powerful men with such control of public opinion (through media) might repeatedly portray any type of submissiveness in men as being "all encompassing" of a man's life and interactions with the world; might repeatedly, and most unfortunately, portray strong women, who might guide and control their marriages, as "bitches and 'battle-axes'." I remember so so many films (and TV shows) from the 40's, 50's and 60's where it was almost the only such portrayal of any, even minor, power-reversal in a marriage. And much of that propaganda still lives on in current society.
Basically, such "media moguls" were vehemently opposed to any portrayals of men not being able to control women, much less men actually submitting to women. (And we wonder how and why the "me too" movement originated in Hollywood?)
Miss C’s Hubby, I hope you can understand how you yourself may have been so propagandized (and many others around you, likewise), and how it might be generating some of what you are feeling. I also hope your participation here, with many other strong men who submit to their wives, helps you "balance" your feelings.
Donn, the film Rebel Without a Cause starring James Dean is an example of the point you make. The film implies that the teenaged protagonist, played by Dean, is psychologically troubled because his father is submissive to his mother.
DeleteDoug
Thanks Doug!
DeleteI'd forgotten all about that. "Rebel Without a Cause" is just one more of many examples of such propaganda! But it was certainly "spot on" regarding my point.
"It seems like way to many members of the general public, and unfortunately too many women who might otherwise be willing to consider a DD relationship, have been propagandized through the patriarchy's control of mass-media (television and films) in this country. One could understand why a lot of powerful men with such control of public opinion (through media) might repeatedly portray any type of submissiveness in men as being 'all encompassing' of a man's life and interactions with the world; might repeatedly, and most unfortunately, portray strong women, who might guide and control their marriages, as 'bitches and 'battle-axes'.'" - I fully agree about the degree of social conditioning for which media has been responsible. And surely much of that is intentional propaganda on the part of the patriarchy that controlled everything and wanted to keep it that way. I also expect that more than a fair amount was not necessarily intentional propaganda, but rather a byproduct of playing to stereotypes; when creating or casting a character, one of the easiest things to do is to have that person fit into a stereotype, and in so doing, it becomes much easier to more fully develop the character without making the movie or show too long. Either way, whether intentional propaganda or lazy screenwriting, Hollywood has certainly reinforced stereotypes and socially conditioned both men and women.
DeleteRegarding the "all-encompassing" part, I couldn't agree more. In fact, as I have gotten older and slightly more self-aware, I have realized that in some aspects of life, I am much more "alpha" and in others, much more "beta." If you were going to ask the people around me whether I am more alpha or beta, the answers are going to vary based on how well they know me, and in which context. Also, as I have gotten older, I probably have become more beta in many ways, but ironically, I probably come across as more alpha in many ways simply because I no mostly quit caring what anyone thinks, which makes me seem stronger and more self-assured.
Living in a sea of propaganda and non-stop cues from all sides socially conditions us all, and it can be extremely difficult to see past it. Obviously for the whole strong man = "good," strong woman = "bitch" thing, it has taken 60 years of women's lib to even weaken this mindset, let alone eradicate it. But with time, it is changing. I expect there is some real cognitive dissonance among young women today, since for their whole (relatively short) lives, mass media has been hitting them with anti-masculinity messaging and idealizing more feminine men. At the same time, their biological cues - programmed by eons of evolution - are making them attracted to more alpha males. It probably drives them crazy that they are attracted to the very thing that they are supposed to hate.
One final note (semi-related) which I meant to fit in a couple of weeks ago when you guys had the excellent discussion about alpha/beta is this. Younger women are absolutely attracted to alpha guys. So any beta guys are going to have a hard enough time finding a partner, let alone one who is willing to dominate them and make them seem even more beta. But oftentimes that changes if people end up divorcing and remarrying later in life. By that time, many women have had all the alpha male they can stand, and reproduction is no longer on their mind, so at this point - at least for many - "nice guys" can seem pretty attractive. And after failing so dismally at "fixing" their manly first husband, having a lump of moldable beta clay to work with seems pretty attractive!
-ZM
ZM said “Younger women are absolutely attracted to alpha guys. So any beta guys are going to have a hard enough time finding a partner, let alone one who is willing to dominate them and make them seem even more beta. But oftentimes that changes if people end up divorcing and remarrying later in life”
DeleteYou are clear and correct about this – and the chemicals promoting reproduction are powerful. However, women evolve biologically and culturally as they age and mature. Moreover, some unknown number of alpha males do seek female-led DD and successfully convince their mates to try it. (As many posts on this blog have recounted). This said, however, it seems likely that most couples only discover female-led DD later in life. As we leave the tyranny of patriarchy ( and the present interlude notwithstanding, we are moving on ), female-led DD may happen for more couples earlier. But evolutionary biology sets us all up for a long learning curve.
Alan
Just a little addition to the Alpha/Beta discussion.
DeleteI think sometimes we "overextend" these classification into other areas where they don't really apply. As Bad_Boy_G noted, its all highly very contextually determined.
I'm comfortable being submissive to my wife around our home and in the bedroom, but I'm much more an "intermediator" in most of my activities in civil law enforcement. Then again, when I put on a uniform, don a vest, and strap-on a sidearm and taser for a "personnel protection" assignment, then the slightest real provocation will send me into the strongest "alpha" most people have ever seen.
(One, a long time ago, through a private group of Femdoms and their regular monthly meetings, I once met a retired Nave SEAL who was totally submissive to his wife, a coach for female children's athletics. You can imagine the range of "contextual behaviors" he was capable of releasing!)
I agree absolutely. Most behavior is contextual. But the larger fallacy we fall into is thinking in binary terms--black-white; alpha -beta-good-bad; etc. The reality is that most phenomenon including behavior exists on a continuum
DeleteAlan
"If you were going to ask the people around me whether I am more alpha or beta, the answers are going to vary based on how well they know me, and in which context. Also, as I have gotten older, I probably have become more beta in many ways, but ironically, I probably come across as more alpha in many ways simply because I no mostly quit caring what anyone thinks, which makes me seem stronger and more self-assured."
DeleteI've learned over the years, to my chagrin, that I come off as more alpha than I intend. Some of it comes down to the simple fact that, while I'm not a big guy, I have a pretty deep, resonant voice. I think it can make even innocuous comments sound like authoritative assertions. I also am not shy about voicing opinions and sticking to my guns when I think I'm right. I don't really think of that as an "alpha" attribute, though it's certainly not a beta thing, and it makes some uncomfortable. I do get what you mean about perhaps coming off as more "alpha" as you get older and stop caring as much about what others think. I think I'm probably coming off as a bit less alpha over time, because for me not caring about what others think manifests as just telling them what I think once and, if they ignore my views, I'm more OK these days with just stepping back and letting things blow up. I think in my old age I've become more skeptical of my ability to change people's views, and I'm generally more OK with just stepping away from the argument and letting the chips fall where they may.
Alan said: "Moreover, some unknown number of alpha males do seek female-led DD and successfully convince their mates to try it. (As many posts on this blog have recounted)." - Agreed. Though in the case of younger couples, it takes a pretty confident partner. One advantage of the clearly alpha male seeking DD (though possibly less so FLR) is that the wife/partner knows just how manly the alpha man is, so she doesn't have to worry as much about him becoming too much of a pushover. But at the same time, his clear masculinity probably makes it that much harder for her to have the necessary self-confidence.
Delete"This said, however, it seems likely that most couples only discover female-led DD later in life." - Also true, for a multitude of likely reasons.
"As we leave the tyranny of patriarchy ( and the present interlude notwithstanding, we are moving on ), female-led DD may happen for more couples earlier." - I too believe we are moving forward on that front. The progress may be slow at time, but it is also sure. I too really believe that younger people may be more open to female-led relationships, especially since younger guys seem to be much, much less mature than they used to be, even as younger women seem much more mature and self-assured.
"But evolutionary biology sets us all up for a long learning curve." - Perfectly stated! I couldn't agree more.
And Dan, what you said about becoming more skeptical of being able to change people's views, so often giving up sooner certainly rings true.
-ZM
I suspect that one reason DD relationships tend to blossom later in life is something either you (or was it Al?) brought up earlier -- women are attracted to Alphas in their youth, then they live with one for a decade or two and get a front row view of how exasperating we can be. That opens them up to taking more control themselves and, frankly, to getting some payback.
DeleteAfter commenting a number of times, I should introduce myself and then answer some of the questions for this topic. I am a male in my early 70s. I am a spankee. As a kid, my mother made it very clear to me that serious misbehavior would be punished with a spanking. She further explained that sometimes a spanking would be on the bare bottom to make it hurt more. Despite all that, I received only one real, over the knee spanking when I was around 5 years old. It was over my pants with my mother's hand, perhaps 10 smacks. Kids talked about spankings, but not often. When I was 6 years old, I had a discussion with a girl in the neighborhood who described how her younger brother, probably age 4 or 5, had his pants pulled down and how he was spanked on his bare bottom. I had two totally contradictory thoughts at the very same time -- one was that I wished someone would do that to me, the other that I was crazy, that I really wouldn't want someone to do that to me. Whenever as a kid a spanking was a possibility, I was scared and frightened. But if I thought about it when it wasn't a possibility (because I hadn't done anything wrong and was totally in my parents' good graces), I found it exciting. I think that what is really going on here is a kind of half-hearted desire to lose control -- as control is most definitely lost in a true spanking. It sounds strange to say that as a kid you are in control, but if you inhabit a world where everything is good as long as you obey and mind your ps and qs, you are in control in a certain sense. And yet there is this desire to lose that control. And why? For variation, to make life less boring and more exciting. I say "half-hearted" because as a kid, when a spanking is really possible, it's not exciting, just scary. As an adult, we are better able to control the scary part, but there is still enough of an element of that to keep the thrilling and exciting part. But at the heart of the whole thing as an adult is the desire to totally lose control in a safe way. OK, now for more info about me and the questions that are the topics of the day. At my request, my wife spanked me for a number of years, but except for three occasions, she hated doing it. I'm not sure why. Finally she announced she would no longer spank me, but allowed me to visit professionals. So I am really only a disciplinedhubbie wannabe at this point. I wish I could get into her head and discover why she hates it so much. My dad gave me one swat on my bottom and one on my hand (two separate occasions) but that was it. No relative ever spanked me. Corporal punishment in school was totally outlawed. On one occasion, a playmate was spanked by his dad with a belt and had to cross the street and apologize (crying his eyes out) to a neighbor girl he had punched. But that was it as far as spanking went, except for some rare chitchat. I have been pretty much continually interested in spanking from age 6 on.
ReplyDeleteThanks, CalSpankee. The desire to not be in control is definitely a big part of my adult disciplinary motivation, but I don't think it's a "variety" thing. It's more like a relief valve.
DeleteI've been a lurker for a very short period, but I have been reading the posts here intensively. I'm inclined to comment now, given my change in circumstances. Hoping people won't judge me for this. I am 18-year-old woman and I recently married a man who is 58, but who looks much, much younger and quite stocky. Spanking just was not part of my life until my husband introduced it to me.
ReplyDeleteAnswers for me and him:
What is your DD orientation? (spanker/spankee/switch)
Spanker for me, spankee for him.
How prevalent was spanking in the community/communities you grew up in? (very prevalent/moderately prevalent/not prevalent at all)
Not prevalent at all for me, very prevalent for him.
How open were parents and kids in your community about spankings, including talking openly about the subject and/or spanking in public? (very open/moderately open/it was known but kept mostly/it was not discussed or performed in public at all)
Not applicable for me, moderately open for him.
How frequently were you subject to corporal punishment at home? (frequently/a few times but not regularly/not at all)
Not at all for me, frequently for him.
If you were subject to corporal punishment at home, who was the primary disciplinarian? (mother/father/both mother and father equally)
N/A for me, mother for him.
Were you subject to corporal punishment at school? (yes/no)
No for me, yes for him.
Were you spanked by relatives or third parties outside your home or school? (yes/no)
No for both of us.
At what age did you develop an interest in spanking or being spanked? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older)
Very recently for me, teens for him.
At what age did you develop an interest in Domestic Discipline or DWC-style spankings? (pre-teen/teen/20s/30s/40s or older)
Very recently for me, 20s for him.
Looking forward to sharing experiences here and learning from others.
GW
Hi GW. Thanks for joining. Sorry it took me a while to respond. Rough week. I assume your husband asked you for the DD lifestyle? If you have time, I hope you'll share some details about how the two of you got here.
DeleteGW, you are probably too young to be familiar with the TV series Northern Exposure that aired in the early 90’s. It’s a wonderfully quirky show. You made me think of it because there is a couple in the show (Shelley and Hollingsworth) with about the same age difference as you and your husband. I believe Shelley is 18 and Holling a very fit 60-year-old, and their relationship has an overtly sexual dynamic. You might want to look it up if you aren’t already familiar with the show. I have to say that I find the idea of an older man being disciplined by a young woman fascinating. My wife is the same age as me, but when she spanks me, I feel like she is an adult and I have been regressed to adolescence. That’s an aspect of the power exchange that excites me. So I find the role reversal of a young woman spanking an older man really exciting. I look forward to hearing more about your experience.
DeleteDoug
I loved that series and need to add it to my nostalgia watchlist. I'd forgotten about Shelley and Holling. it was a very unusual paring but a very interesting dynamic.
DeleteDan, he did indeed ask for it. Is that unusual in your experience?
DeleteDoug, thanks for making me aware of this. I will look into it when I remember.
GW
Hi GW -- welcome aboard!
DeleteThe experience and consensus among DD practitioners is the overwhelming majority of DD-relationships are initiated at the man's request. From a whole bunch of difference sources (blogs, forums, DWC's Guestbook, etc), only a small fraction (~3-6%) are initiated by women.
Hi GW. No, I think in the vast majority of these relationships it is the man who asks for it.
DeleteA FRAMEWORK FOR THINKING ABOUT ALL THIS
ReplyDeleteThis is an attempt to put the responses to Dan’s poll in a larger framework toward understanding who we are and what we do. It is intended to provoke discussion; almost everyone posting this week is a “spanko” and had exposure to spanking during childhood. However, exposure to spanking in childhood is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for the adult onset of a “spanking fetish.”
• That it is not necessary is exemplified by the instance of spanking fetish in people without childhood exposure (possibly particularly most recent generations;
• that it is not sufficient is exemplified by the apparently large number of people who have been exposed to spanking but do not experience adult spanking fetish.
1. But that does not mean that childhood exposure to spanking may not be a factor in a spanking fetish. If one has a pre-existing genetic “predisposition” to a spanking fetish, then early exposure could trigger it.
2. But if that pre-existing genetic predisposition is not present (or is weak), then the fetish may develop much later in life or not at all.
3. And if that genetic predisposition does not exist in a person, that person is unlikely to develop a spanking fetish even with a high level of exposure to spanking.
In effect, to become a spanko, one must have both
• a pre-existing genetic predisposition
• and an environmental exposure that triggers that predisposition.
The exact nature of the necessary environmental exposure seems highly idiosyncratic –involving being spanked for someone, observing a spanking for others, and just living in a spanking-positive culture for others. Some cited exposure to material like the DWC or Penthouse this week, and that could be all it takes to trigger the genetic predisposition.
In sum, those of us who identify as spankos probably have some degree of genetic predisposition. When I say “genetic predisposition,” I am not implying some “spanko gene.” Such a gene is very unlikely to exist. Instead, the pre-existing genetic predisposition” is likely to be a multitude of genetic traits that exhibit high variance at the individual level -and that MAY be correlated with sexual fetishism in general, rather than specific to spanking. Becoming a spanko happens ( for most) without effort or even awareness. But becoming a spanko is anything but simple
Alan
Alan: Yes!
DeleteI agree with almost everything you have written. (+95%)
I don't want to imply that you have held a particular previous position, but I think you have stated (a few times) your "general hypothesis" that there is appears to be some type a "spanking gene." What you write above, about some to type of multi-loci multi-gene "combination" is a strong disposing factor (like most complex human traits), is much more along the lines of my own thinking (see below).
That said, I think I disagree with (what I perceive to be) your implication that such a predisposing genetic combination is a "necessary prerequisite." (Yes, I know you didn't explicitly state it was "necessary," but that is how I perceive your train of speech and logic.)
Because so many "kinks" (not necessarily "fetishes," in classic Freudian or DMSR sense) involve "power exchange," I think that such a factor, and any genetic and life-experiences influencing a person's perceptions and needs for "power exchange," could be something that "genetics" could have a profound effect upon. There are several recognized medical conditions, or "diagnostic elements" of some clinical conditions, that are genetically predisposed, and might instill in person a very strong desire for assistance with self-control; a desire for "external" control. "Spanking" might be one of several different ways such a "needs" in a person could be fulfilled.
But, that said (again), such "need" might not be genetic. Both Dan and "Z" have noted comparable theories of there own along this lines: That because they did not have sufficient "external control" during critical stages of development, they did not develop certain "self-control" skills, and thus they now have a strong (above average) need for external control. This could be extended into a hypothesis: A person who did not develop, or insufficiently developed those skills, and was then exposed to "spanking," might perceive the "external control" and "power exchange" of spanking to be very fulfilling of these missing skills and needs.
Anyway, today is very busy for me, and I don't intend to play "neuropsychologist" or "neuropsychiatrist" (my wife is much better at that than me).
I just wanted to point out about the effects of a predisposing "genetics": Those same effects might be induced by environment, or even conceivably through some type of brain injury (prenatal, perinatal, or postnatal), or even some forms of mild developmental disabilities. There are certainly many members here, and in the DWC story collections, who have personally commented / given examples of their own struggles with "impulse control" in wide-ranging contexts, and their strong desires for "external control" (e.g., "spanking") to help them with their "impulse control" struggles.
More discussion latter, when I have more time.
I haven't commented for the last few days and may not until the weekend or next week, as I've been hit with a bad case of the flu. My self-perceived condition is somewhere between "got hit by a truck" and "walking death."
DeleteBut, I have been trying to keep up with the commenting, to some extent. I'll wait to respond to the pending comments, but I did want to respond to one item. Donn said: "Both Dan and "Z" have noted comparable theories of there own along this lines: That because they did not have sufficient "external control" during critical stages of development, they did not develop certain "self-control" skills, and thus they now have a strong (above average) need for external control." I don't actually agree with the "did not develop certain "self-control" skills . . ." part. It's actually the opposite. I think by the time I reached high school, the *only* control I experienced was self-control. Further, I chose a profession that was all about controlling the not-so-controllable on behalf of clients. So, whatever the psychological trigger was for my late-blooming interest in DD and later FLR, it was really about the attraction to *giving up* an overwhelming sense of needing to exercise self-control all the time. It was a about the relief, and even freedom, involved in handing control over to someone else after having to exercise it over oneself for many years.
Also, I think it might be problematic to read much into my reasons for developing an interest in DD, given that my late-blooming desire for it seems to have been *very* atypical.
Dan: Sorry I misunderstood. - D
DeleteNo reason to apologize. Just didn't want people drawing the wrong conclusion.
DeleteDonn
DeleteThanks for your comments. I agree with most of your points regarding predisposition, albeit you are venturing a bit into epigenetics, which I did not do -and which, for the present discussion, introduces what may be a veneer of unnecessary complexity. I do think it is entirely possible for one to explore DD ( or any fetish) without a genetic predisposition -and learn to enjoy that experience. In fact, we have had posts from several husbands/boyfriends (and a few wives/girlfriends describing how a woman initially indulged her partner, only to end up valuing and enjoying it (sometimes erotically). That said, the predisposition is still much more likely to predict someone adopting the fetish.
Alan
Dan's comment about self-control and the need to give that up at least once in while is in line with my belief that spankees live in a world where they generally in control but desire to experience some variety -- namely, not being in control but giving that control to another person (the spanker). It's a little bit strange to say that a six year old is "in control" but if the six year old is obedient and has reasonable, predictable parents, the six year old can most definitely feel secure and in a certain sense "in control." This has led me to wonder whether the converse is true for spankers -- that they often feel out of control and desire to be in control as a counter to that. If you are a 6 year old and don't realize you have done anything wrong, and then you are pulled over a parent's knee for a hard spanking, this has to leave the child with an out of control feeling.
DeleteDonn
DeleteThanks for your comments. I agree with most of your points regarding predisposition, albeit you are venturing a bit into epigenetics, which I did not do -and which, for the present discussion, introduces what may be a veneer of unnecessary complexity. I do think it is entirely possible for one to explore DD ( or any fetish) without a genetic predisposition -and learn to enjoy that experience. In fact, we have had posts from several husbands/boyfriends (and a few wives/girlfriends describing how a woman initially indulged her partner, only to end up valuing and enjoying it (sometimes erotically). That said, the predisposition is still much more likely to predict someone adopting the fetish.
Alan
Dan, r.e. your comment on giving up an overwhelming sense of needing to exercise self control all the time, mine was a very different experience. I had very little self control, and got into a huge amount of trouble because of it. I took many unnessary risks, drank too much and behaved badly for most of my life. Part of the problem was PTSD for Vietnam. Jacqueline Omertà spoke about how she had helped some vets by spanking them. I was very interested in exploring that, but she lived a long ways away. Finally, after getting together with a woman who would give me limits, boundaries, and consequences for bad behavior, I have a much more stable and happy life. Now part of our check in is my acknowledging my need for her disciplining me, and my graduate to her for doing so.
DeleteNorton, if you don’t mind my asking, did you join the military voluntarily? I ask because I know young men fitting your description of yourself (lacking self control, getting into trouble, drinking, etc.) who have joined the military after being hell raisers at school. That has always seemed paradoxical to me. Why would young men who rebelled against every kind of mild authority in civilian life subject themselves to the rigid hierarchical authoritarianism of the military? Is it possible that military authority could fulfill a similar need as strict DD from one’s wife?
DeleteDoug
Norton, you said: "I had very little self control, and got into a huge amount of trouble because of it. I took many unnessary risks, drank too much and behaved badly for most of my life."
DeleteFor me, I can say the same about drinking too much, taking many risks, and behaving in ways that others considered " bad", but that doesn't mean I wasn't in control. If anything, I felt more in control the more risks I took, the more I engaged in adult behaviors like drinking, and the more trouble I almost got into but then pulled myself out of. All that stuff left me feeling HIGHLY in control. But, at that age, being the person who was always drawing those lines between what I would and would not do imposed a lot more psychological stress than I appreciated at the time. When I hit my late 30s and discovered the DWC, the idea of being held accountable for the excesses suddenly became very appealing, as did the idea of letting go of the control and letting someone else make some decisions about what I was and was not going to do.
"For me, I can say the same about drinking too much, taking many risks, and behaving in ways that others considered 'bad', but that doesn't mean I wasn't in control. If anything, I felt more in control the more risks I took, the more I engaged in adult behaviors like drinking, and the more trouble I almost got into but then pulled myself out of. All that stuff left me feeling HIGHLY in control." - I think the way you wrote this rings true for me as well, though perhaps with a twist. Oftentimes, my behavior and choices flowed out of what most people would call lack of self-control, but I always took pride in being able to somehow control the outcome of everything, even my bad choices, so I ended up feeling very much in control. And at least part of my need for DD/FLR is not because I want variety, but rather because a lifetime of controlling outcomes (really controlling EVERYTHING) is exhausting!
DeleteOne thing this makes me wonder is - assuming that at least some others are like me - just how many of us would consider ourselves almost control freaks?
-ZM
I have a curious mix when it comes to control freakery. Where my career work product was concerned, I could be VERY controlling. I was notorious for doing draft after draft after draft of written work product. I had very precise guidelines on how to handle certain client communications. And, when trying to get to certain outcomes, I could get very pissy if someone did something that I thought might interfere with or endanger that goal. Yet, in most other areas, I can be totally cavalier and I'm pretty slobby and disorganized.
DeleteI am not sure that being meticulous or thorough is necessary to be a control freak, though it certainly can be a manifestation of it. I am generally the wild card or cowboy, and have little use for procedures, unless I happen to put a system in place. But if I know how I want something done, God help anyone who dares to deviate from what I instructed.
Delete-ZM
Yeah, that kind of sums me up. There are lots and lots of things where I don't care about procedures or outcomes at all, but when I do I care A LOT.
DeleteI have read with interest the various theories people have proposed about the way our exposure to spanking while growing up may or may not have contributed to our adult interest in DD. I think that every theory may be correct for some people because we have all come to DD via unique pathways. My own experience has suggested a rather Freudian theory to me. Maybe it will resonate with others who developed an interest in spanking in early childhood.
ReplyDeleteMy earliest spanking memory may actually be one of my earliest memories. I have a distinct memory of my older sister giving me a play spanking when we were in the bathtub together while my mother was putting our baby sister to bed. We must have been very young; otherwise, our mother wouldn’t have put us together in the tub. My sister pretended that she was a mother who had to spank me because I was her naughty child. The skin on skin friction as I squirmed across her lap excited me so much that I began to try to reproduce that stimulation when I was alone in bed, squirming against the mattress and imagining that I was being spanked. On one level, my sister just played an innocent childhood game of pretend with me, but by accident it awakened in me erotic feelings about spanking.
I think it is possible that a similar effect could sometimes result when boys are spanked by their mothers. If a boy is spanked with his pants down across his mother’s lap, it is likely that the pain of the spanking would be mixed with pleasurable stimulation from being in that position, especially if he squirmed from the spanking. Is it possible that for some of us, our desire to be spanked by our wives is related to that childhood experience of mixed pleasure and pain? That might explain why, for some of us, we want our wives to spank us in a manner that seems most “maternal”: over their knees with our bottoms bared.
Doug
A further thought. When you are a kid and your mother spanks you over her knee, not only is there an undeniable physical intimacy, but there is a profound emotional effect because you are being punished by the person who most loves you. Whether or not she says it explicitly (I think my mother did), the message you get is that she is punishing BECAUSE she loves and cares for you and is, therefore, educating you how to behave. Leaving aside the psychological debates about the appropriateness of parental spanking, that’s the message you get. Is it any wonder then that later in life some of us want our wives to “love” us that way?
DeleteHere’s a further consideration that may apply only to me. When I was small my mother was the main disciplinarian, and I have vague memories, faded with time, of her spanking me over her knee. But when I was 7 or 8, my mother stopped spanking me. Instead, she would say, “Wait until your father gets home.” I feared punishment from my father because he used his belt and it was harsh. (Today it would be considered abuse, but I think fathers commonly disciplined sons that way back then. I had friends whose fathers also used their belts). I think that created an Oedipal psychological dynamic for me. I can remember telling my mother, after one harsh beating from my father, that I hated my father. I could see that it distressed her when I said that, but I think I wanted to punish her emotionally because I felt that she had banished me from a childhood of maternal care and affection to the cold, harsh world of paternal discipline. That may be the reason I want so badly for my wife to punish me the way my mother did when I was small, over her knee.
Doug
Doug,
DeleteI think you are on a good trajectory toward understanding why spanking is so important to you. The assistance of a psychoanalytically trained therapist at this point might help a lot ( any good therapist in fact) He or she can help put what you are uncovering into perspective and guide you to a fuller understanding. You have accomplished much so far and you can go still deeper if you wish. Congratulations
Alan
Thanks, Alan. I have actually been exploring this for a while with the help of a psychotherapist.
DeleteDoug
"I think that every theory may be correct for some people because we have all come to DD via unique pathways."
DeleteDoug, I couldn't agree more. I'm very suspicious of any "unifying theory" that purports to explain how all of us got to this, if for no other reason than some here clearly have conditions that likely would be diagnosable as a fetish, and others do not. The causal path for those with an actual fetish going back to early childhood is almost certainly going to be very, very different from the causal path for someone who came to it later and for seemingly less innate reasons. I suspect that genetic predispositions, Freudian-like psychological factors, non-Freudian psychological factors, utilitarian factors, etc. are all in the mix, playing different roles for different people. Your more Freudian, Oedipal-like explanation seems to make perfect sense in explaining your journey, but it might not apply at all to how others got here. But, it's great that you've so thoroughly explored how you got here and continue to do so.
Dan, I noticed that a couple of my posts have disappeared. Is that because they included descriptions of childhood experiences deemed inappropriate? I wrote about them because they were relevant to the topic, and I tried to do it in as clinical a way as possible. But I know stuff like that is sensitive. If you decided to delete those posts as inappropriate, no problem, I understand. I’m just wondering whether that is the reason.
ReplyDeleteDoug
Nope, wasn't me. Looks like Google flagged them as spam. I just released them.
DeleteThanks, Dan.
DeleteReading this academic article https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2020.1767025 raised a number of questions for me. Even though it is mainly focused on BDSM 1. That spanking is primarily a sexual interest or fetish ( and that should be a question in the poll?). 2. Some people ‘enjoy’ a certain level of pain. As I have said to my wife when she doubted the efficacy of spanking on behaviour, I would enjoy a mild spanking but what she does goes way beyond enjoyment. 3 The opportunity to retreat from being the boss / leader in the rest of my life is key ( although doesn’t explain the continued attraction now that I’m retired. 4. The mindfulness or ‘flow’, aspect.
ReplyDeleteI think the article raises lots of interesting points relevant to DD and is well worth even a scan read. TB
Fascinating article, TB. Thanks for the link. I agree with you that it raises points relevant to DD, or at least relevant to the way I relate to DD.
ReplyDeleteDoug
Yes, interesting article. Thanks from me too.
ReplyDeleteI had a thought that is tangential to this topic. Maybe it could be a future topic. The questionnaire asks at what age we “developed an interest” in spanking and DD. We all have an interest in spanking and DD or we wouldn’t be here. But I’m curious what different people mean by “having an interest.” That could cover a wide range of mental states, from being curious about it to being obsessed with it. Is DD something you would like to have, but it’s okay if you don’t get it? Or is it a really strong desire? Or not just a desire, but a need? A craving?
ReplyDeleteI can do something along those lines.
Delete
ReplyDeleteA very interesting discussion this week, but I do have to disagree with Alan’s point about the necessity of “an environmental exposure that triggers that predisposition.” For me, that simply wasn’t the case, it all came from inside. Going back to the larger discussion, I wonder if there is some national characteristic at work here. I know we all value our anonymity here, but I don’t think I’m breaking any rules by saying I’m in the US, and have been since the nineties, but I’m originally from the UK. I know there’s at least one other Brit who is a frequent commenter here but I haven’t noticed anything from him this week. I’d be interested to know if there are any others from that side of the pond and if their childhood mirrors mine in lacking any corporal punishment. I asked my wife about her childhood experience and she confirmed that corporal punishment was prevalent both at home and school. She grew up in the Midwest. TG
TG, it’s interesting that you are from the UK. The French have long referred to flagellation and sadomasochism as “le vice anglais”. You may not have experienced corporal punishment as a child in the UK, but corporal punishment is deeply ingrained in British culture and British jurisprudence. (I live in a Commonwealth country that was heir to British culture and jurisprudence). Am I wrong to assume that, although corporal punishment had fallen out of favour in the UK when you were young, you were nevertheless exposed to cultural representations of corporal punishment, for example in films and TV shows? It seems to me that if a person had an innate predisposition towards DD, indirect exposure to corporal punishment through cultural representations could have an effect similar to first hand experience.
DeleteDoug
“Le vice anglais” = the English vice
DeleteTG and Everyone:
DeleteRegarding your query about our various nationalities and how associated cultures might influence our levels of interest in DD, I would like to add a data point (really, many more "points" than that).
As some here may be aware, I've been working on "conserving the restoring" the old DWC website (hopefully for a "relaunch" sometime late Spring or early Summer this year).
This past week I've been working on restoring the old DWC Guestbook, by reformatting and recoding (HTML 3.2) all the old guest posts. As part of this work, I've noticed two very interesting patterns:
(1) Of all nationalities (i.e., user posted "self-locations,") somewhere between 35-40& gave either "UK" or some city/town/county residing in the UK! (There were only a very few from Australia and NZ.) For "English" language speakers, that is a remarkable statistic and percentage considering that UK residents comprise only 15% (67.6M people) of the combined populations of UK + US + Canada (449.2M people)! That's almost a three-fold higher rate of apparent "interest" in DD!
I know some of us have been wondering if we might be a "dying breed." That because so many of us are older (50's, 60's and 70's), and because CP has apparently become much less common in homes and schools than during our own youths, and considering the statistics (this week) of how important early exposure might be in developing "attachments" to CP/DD, WILL THERE BE A NEW GENERATION OF YOUNGER MEN (AND WOMEN) TO TAKE OUR PLACES?
Maybe we don't have to worry too much, as by early 1970's almost all CP had been eliminated from UK Government controlled youth schools, and ny early 1980's the UK Government passed outright bans of CP in all schools, including those "public" (really PRIVATE) schools where CP lingered. As far as I can tell, there has been very little reduction of UK residents' interests in their "English Vice" (as the French termed it). Maybe a good sign for future generations? (Can any UK residents / amateur-historians, who might have better info on exact UK laws and dates eliminating CP, please jump-in and provide us with more precise dates and circumstance?)
(Cont. . .)
It used to be the case that I could draw some general conclusions about national proclivities toward DD by looking at Blogger's "stats" feature, which supposedly tracks where viewers are located. It's always been a far from perfect feature, probably thanks to the use of VPNs. But, recently it's become totally worthless, as exemplified today's statistic showing the vast majority of our readers coming from . . . Singapore. Though, of course, they are kind of into judicial caning.
DeleteIn the past, the stats featured showed around 2/3 of our readers coming from the US, but with the UK always in second place.
FYI, for kink proclivities in general, probably the best source out there for country-specific data is Pornhub, which publishes annual analyses, including the most popular kink categories by country. Unfortunately, spanking doesn't rank in most of the surveys. Here's a link to their report for 2024:https://www.pornhub.com/insights/2024-year-in-review
Interesting, no - I certainly have no memory of exposure to CP in film and TV when I was young. I think the first time I saw it was as a young adult visiting customers in central London. I discovered some spanking-based shops in Soho. However, this was years after my interest had started and they were definitely spanking as a sexual activity. The other comments are interesting though and have me wondering if the community I grew up in was atypical. TG
DeleteRegarding whether spanking will fade away completely now that it is almost entirely absent from the public sphere, it's possible, but I think it's at least as likely that what could change is that absence from the public sphere. It's become unfashionable and condemning corporal punishment has become the politically/culturally safe, conventional answer. Yet, in form it's been more or less ubiquitous across cultures, geographies, and nationalities for eons. It pops up in the least expected places, like Zen Buddhist masters hitting students, harshly, with sticks to force them to pay attention and be more present. It's ubiquity and persistence may lend some support to Alan's longstanding support for a genetic explanation. In the face of all that, we have a hyper-egalitarian, politically correct culture with all its trigger warnings and safe zones and obsessions with personal safety and freedom from all externally imposed pain and anxiety that is maybe 20 years old and that hasn't led to the utopian childhood it promised but, rather, to skyrocketing levels of teenage mental health issues. With that background, I'm not sure I'd bet that the current removal of spanking and discipline from the public sphere is going to be the long-term winner.
DeleteRegarding whether spanking will fade away because of it becoming absent in the public sphere, I think that is extremely unlikely, but it may change the character of how spanking is perceived in some ways. At the very least, spanking will continue as a fetish, and fetishes not only don't need to be publicly acceptable, but in fact many seem to almost feed on just how taboo they are considered to be. I am pretty sure that some of the more extreme fetishes in Germany or Japan, for example, are not in any way supported or promoted in the public sphere, but that hasn't kept them from surviving and even flourishing in the new "public" sphere, the internet.
Delete-ZM
ZM, good point. It's very hard to predict how this will play out.
DeleteI don’t think adult/adult spanking will ever disappear, even if it completely disappears as a childhood punishment. My interest in spanking has led me to other forms of D/s power exchange. That means that for me spanking isn’t an end in itself, it is tapping into a deeper psychological dynamic drives some other D/s kinks. To me spanking is the most primal expression of one person’s power over another, and I can imagine coming to it from an exploration of other forms of power exchange. Who knows, once childhood spanking discipline is just a cultural memory, it may gain in power because it will seem exotic or even taboo.
DeleteDoug
“In the face of all that, we have a hyper-egalitarian, politically correct culture with all its trigger warnings and safe zones and obsessions with personal safety and freedom from all externally imposed pain and anxiety that is maybe 20 years old and that hasn't led to the utopian childhood it promised but, rather, to skyrocketing levels of teenage mental health issues. With that background, I'm not sure I'd bet that the current removal of spanking and discipline from the public sphere is going to be the long-term winner.”
DeleteAlthough I have always been in the anti-spanking camp, based on my own childhood experience, I think you could be right about that. You are right that physical discipline has been culturally universal and is still practiced in the privacy of the family, even in countries in some countries that are trying to ban it. And if you accept the premise that corporal punishment may be beneficial in some circumstances, spanking is undoubtedly the safest form because the buttocks are the fleshiest part of the body. The trouble with spanking is that for some of us it is an innately sexual experience, even in early childhood. That is the crux of Jillian Keenan’s argument against childhood spanking. I find Jillian’s argument persuasive because I am like her. Where I grew up, corporal punishment in schools was generally applied to the hand with a strap, although spanking was not unheard of in the early grades. I assume hand strapping was preferred because it didn’t have the possible sexual connotation of spanking, but striking the hand, with its delicate and complex skeletal structure, was probably physically riskier.
Bottom line: you could be right that efforts to ban spanking outright, especially in the privacy of the home, might fail if permissiveness is perceived as contributing to social problems. (A hotly debated point). But schools are another matter. When I was growing up, I think people were much less conscious that, for some people, spanking is effectively a sex act. I certainly had no idea back then that spanking was a bedroom activity for some adults. But everyone knows that now, and that would have to weigh against any movement to revive corporal punishment in schools.
Doug
I really liked Keenan's "Sex With Shakespeare", and I give her huge credit for coming out so openly as someone with a spanking fetish and making the effort to help others understand it. But, I think there is a big error in her thinking when it comes to corporal punishment. You said, "The trouble with spanking is that for some of us it is an innately sexual experience, even in early childhood." The problem with Keenan's argument is extending from spanking is innately sexual for *some* people, to spankings are *always* innately or overtly sexual for at least one participant, so it should never be a part of parenting.
DeleteIn some of her YouTube videos, she is adamant that for either the spanker or spankee, there is always a sexual element involved in spanking, period. She is very, very dogmatic on that point. The big error I see in her thinking is that Jillian is a spanking fetishist and, almost by definition, a fetishist's sexual impulses are outside the norm. I have no doubt that FOR HER spankings are inextricable from sex and have been since early childhood, but she makes a massive leap in projecting that onto everyone else, most of whom are NOT spanking fetishists and do NOT experience spankings as inherently sexual.
I honestly don't have any idea how this will all shake out. And, I always feel like the odd man out in pushing back against what has become the conventional wisdom, yet I'm not a proponent of childhood corporal punishment. I see myself as pretty agnostic on it as a practice, but I think the studies showing a linkage between it and societal harm are extremely flimsy. And, anecdotally it has been mostly banned for two generations, and yet the last two generations of kids have kind of been a fucking mess. The anti-spanking activists attributed a whole bunch of harm to it, including anxiety, depression, drops in educational performance and achievement, etc. Then, it disappeared from the public sphere and those problems all got worse, especially among boys. I'm not saying those things got worse because spanking became much less prevalent, but I think it's safe to say at this point that removing it didn't produce any of the benefits the activists suggested, which is some evidence that it was never the source of harm that they alleged. But, of course, correlation doesn't equal causation . . .
One other thing that occurred to me -- spanking has disappeared from the sphere of public schools, but increasingly parents are opting out of those schools. I'm absolutely not a fan of vouchers and using public money to support private and religious education. But, the Supreme Court is busy eviscerating any constraints on public funding for private schools, and especially in red states parents are increasingly opting for choices outside the system. Some of those other options including a return to corporal punishment. So, there are lots of churning elements in play right now.
DeleteDan, I pretty much agree with everything you say. I used to be as dogmatic as Jillian in asserting that spanking is innately sexual because I can’t imagine it not being sexual for me. I became less dogmatic after reading a book about sexual kinks in general. I realized that a person with a shoe fetish probably can’t imagine not being turned on by shoes. There even exists a balloon fetish, and one can only wonder what kind of early childhood experience might have contributed to that. As to whether the banishment of corporal punishment has contributed to behavioural problems in young people, I think you are right to be agnostic. Teachers I know tell me that their jobs have become more difficult in the last ten years, whereas corporal punishment has been banned in schools for over 4 decades where I live. So other more recent factors must be at play. One problem is that teachers are less respected than they used to be, and the lack of respect students show in the classroom is often learned at home from their parents. My parents, like many parents in the 60’s, told us that if we misbehaved enough to be punished at school, we would be punished again at home. The way things are now, even if corporal punishment was permitted at school, teachers would probably be afraid to use it for fear of legal consequences from parents who would reflexively side with their kids against the school.
DeleteDoug
Thanks, Doug. There was a line in Sex With Shakepeare that helped me understand the nature of a true fetish a bit better. I don't have the exact quote at hand, but the gist was pretty simple: for her, spanking IS sex. It is her go-to form of sexual expression. If the choice was between spanking and what most of us consider actual sex, she would choose spanking every time. Now, all that is extremely different from how I am wired. If I had to choose DD or traditional sex, traditional sex wins every single time. So, it's very hard for me to understand what it would be like to be wired such that spanking = sex, but her book helped me understand more about how some are, in fact, wired that way. I do wish, however, that she would recognize that the natural corollary of her experiencing, as a fetishist, of spanking = sex is that for people without that fetish, spanking does NOT = sex. But, I kind of write it off to, she's young and young people aren't great at lifting their gaze from their own navels.
DeleteMy wife is a former teacher, and the lack of parental support for teachers was probably the #1 dissatisfier in her job. I am definitely of the era you are, in which disrespect for a teacher at school was going to have painful consequences at home.
One further thought on hand strapping versus spanking in schools when I was growing up. It was assumed, I think, that hand strapping, unlike spanking, had no sexual overtones. I don’t think that’s true for everyone. I got the strap twice when I was in school, once from a male teacher and once from a female teacher. The gender of teacher made a difference to my feelings about it. I felt more embarrassed to get it from a woman. In fact, it didn’t feel entirely unlike being spanked by her. I also had my hands strapped by a professional disciplinarian one time. I went to her to be spanked, but when she saw that I was fascinated by an old regulation school strap in her collection, she asked if I wanted a dose of the strap. Out of curiosity, I said yes. Although it wasn’t as sexually charged as being spanked over her knee, it was nevertheless quite sexual. Something that heightened the power exchange aspect is that you are face to face with the disciplinarian when you get strapped on the hand.
DeleteDoug
Dan, I also remember Jillian’s claim that “spanking is sex” in Sex with Shakespeare. It gave me a jolt of recognition. “Yes it is!” I thought. Well, maybe it’s a bit different for me. I think Jillian actually has orgasms from spanking. I don’t. But the memory of the event is highly erotic to the point that I can imagine choosing spanking over sex. The other paradox is that for the spanking to have a full effect, it has to be real discipline, not an erotic game. I have to face the fact that I’m weird.
DeleteDoug
I get the necessity of the disciplinary aspect, for sure. The difference between us is that, for me, without the disciplinary aspect, spanking has almost no appeal at all. Or, at least, no more than lots of other kinks that I might be mildly curious about or that might add a tad of spice.
DeleteDan, what about spanking not as discipline for any specific infraction, but as a pure expression of power, to make clear who is the boss? Would that not be as powerful as punishment? It is for me because it also makes the spanking “real”. What’s important to me is that she’s not just pretending to be the boss, she is for real. The less consensual it feels, the better. In my head I think that’s not very healthy, but I can’t help being wired this way.
DeleteDoug
Doug, it's complicated. I definitely get what you mean by "the less consensual it feels, the better" and "what’s important to me is that she’s not just pretending to be the boss, she is for real." There is a part of my psyche that also has that need to have someone take me in hand so firmly that my consent becomes irrelevant. Yet, for me, the exercise of the the "boss" power has to be connected to something that, at least in her mind, deserves it, or it crosses some line for me. There have been a (very) few times where she spanked for something I didn't fully agree with, or spanked hard for something I considered trivial. In the moment, the emotion it raised was resentment. But, honestly, I think that's the way it was as a kid, too. I was certainly never happy about being punished. But, after some time had passed, there was a strong erotic element in knowing she had spanked me purely as an express of her authority to decide what was punishable and what is not. So, I get the underlying attraction you are describing to pure expressions of power, but for me there is some line where it would drift into something arbitrary and chaotic. And, since a big key to my dynamic is having someone set boundaries, something that feels chaotic would be going in the wrong direction. You said that some of your drive may be Oedipal-ish. I don't use the Freudian terminology, but I have come to accept that a big part of my attraction to DD and FLR is distinctly maternal. But, I actually had the out-of-control mother who wasn't good at imposing boundaries on herself, let alone on anyone else. That's probably why an expression of raw power, untethered to anything like actual misbehavior or rule breaking, crosses a line for me.
DeleteI get what you mean about this dynamic sometimes not feeling very healthy. A friend of mine who is in a M/f DD and D/s dynamic says she believes that many of us wired this way have "unbalanced" personalities. Unbalanced in the literal sense of being prone to excesses and lack of balance, not in in the colloquial sense of unbalanced = insane. I don't have any qualms about saying that's true in my case. I've noticed that in those brief periods where I've gotten into a more well-balanced headspace--often through meditation or some from of exploration--my need for DD dropped like a rock. The way I look at it, if you have such a personality, there are different ways to deal with it--therapy, medication, spiritual practices, etc.--including DD. To me, there's nothing inherently more healthy about months or years of talk therapy if a DD relationship gets you to the same place.
Dan, I can see why an expression of raw power would cross a line for you, based on your experience with your mother. My mother wasn’t like that, nor is my wife. I should clarify that my wife only ever spanks me when there is a reason, and I wish she would be stricter. The idea of spanking as an expression of raw power is a fantasy for me, not real life. When I say my obsession with power is unhealthy, I mean that I constantly crave being pushed to a deeper level of submission, and if my wife was as sexually dominant, or sadistic, as I am masochistic, who knows how far it could go? For example, if my wife wanted to humiliate me publicly, I am not sure I could withdraw consent. I have been undergoing talk therapy for a while. I started because I was struggling with anxiety and low self esteem…maybe depression. Rationally, my emotions didn’t make sense to me because any outside observer would say I have had a successful life, with a good career and a stable marriage. I sought a therapist to try to make sense of my feelings. It had to be a woman therapist too, maybe because of my childhood fear of my father. It was embarrassing to tell her about my sexual obsessions, especially spanking, but that’s where the effort to understand my anxiety and poor self image led. I guess I may be a poster boy for the psychological risks of childhood spanking that anti-spanking activists warn about. Maybe. Who knows? It’s hard to understand cause and effect, even within one’s own experience. I know lots of people have had similar experiences to mine and have turned out differently.
DeleteDoug
Doug,
DeleteStay the course with your therapist and open up to your wife as much as possible. What you are doing and where you are going is healthy -very healthy. Unhealthy would be repressing and denying your feelings and emotions and making everyone around you feel as miserable as you do. Submitting to your wife's disciplinary authority, while learning to trust and obey her ( and sharing it with your therapist) will open up areas of insight and deep understanding for you
Alan
"Rationally, my emotions didn’t make sense to me because any outside observer would say I have had a successful life, with a good career and a stable marriage." The two definitely aren't mutually exclusive. I'm sure that to some extent my career success was the direct result of both the unbalanced personality, which led me to do 18 to 20 hour days regularly, and anxiety around fear of failure. I'm pretty confident that I been more balanced, less anxious, and less insecure, I would have been happier but poorer by a lot.
DeleteI think it's really hard to attribute cause and effect to things like childhood spanking or childhood thoughts of spanking. In fact, some of the responses to this post indicate that people experienced obsessive thoughts about spanking well before they experienced any actual spanking. So, if they've now landed in a certain spot in their life, is that because of childhood spankings? Childhood thoughts about spanking? Or, maybe spanking was just part of the experiential or psychological background but had very little causal connection to our present state of success or lack thereof? It's all very complicated, but that's one of the things that makes it interesting and valuable to explore. I have no idea whether your talk therapy will ultimately have a big positive benefit on your anxiety or other emotions, but I have no doubt you'll explore some extremely interesting ground in the process.
This is all tremendously interesting and each point has different values. I’ve always thought that in my case, my past experience being disciplined as a child, led me to where I am today. I cant see how someone could not experience spanking as a child and then suddenly wake up in their thirties and want to be disciplined. I’m on the opposite spectrum. I do not think that DD will be around in twenty years now that spanking has diminished in youth. I also agree with Doug that I probably could if used some therapy in my late twenties. I could not comprehend why I was angry and pissed off at the world at times. I
Deletewas successful yet unfulfilled in life. I was unhappy in my first relationship and could not understand why I needed a women to discipline me. Even to this day, I struggle with the innate desires of my feelings surrounding DD. As an alpha
Deletemale who prides himself in being a man’s man. One who refuses to show emotion at times, I struggle with my inner thoughts surrounding this need to be dominated and put in my place. I do wish at times, that I had a normal vanilla style relationship. I do see and can commiserate with J. keenan in her mind surrounding her desires.
T
Hi T,
Delete"I cant see how someone could not experience spanking as a child and then suddenly wake up in their thirties and want to be disciplined. I’m on the opposite spectrum. I do not think that DD will be around in twenty years now that spanking has diminished in youth." - I expect that it will still be around, but the avenues with which people discover it will change dramatically. Certainly most children are now growing up without fearing spanking in schools, and probably the majority in homes as well (though that is harder to know for sure). So most kids won't grow up being used to parental or school spanking, at least in the USA and big swaths of the western world. At the same time, BDSM has probably become more popular over the past 20 years, driven by films and internet, among other things. So at least some of the people who play with BDSM are going to realize, "this could work to straighten out his ass..." and they will end up exploring DD or FLR.
"I struggle with my inner thoughts surrounding this need to be dominated and put in my place." - Same...
"I do wish at times, that I had a normal vanilla style relationship." - My wife and I were just talking about this two days ago and she asked me if I wished I was wired differently. My answer is sometimes, but not really, because this is a part of who I am, and I wouldn't want to lose that part, since it might change all the others.
Just my $.02
-ZM
This discussion has led me to think about corporal punishment at school versus corporal punishment at home back in the day. Corporal punishment at school where I lived was mostly hand strapping. Spanking wasn’t unheard of, but school spankings were administered to the seat of the pants, not with pants down. I believe that was probably universally true: paddlings in American schools or canings in British schools were administered to clothed bottoms, right? That suggests a question to me. Since spankings can obviously be administered without baring the bottom, why did many parents (mine included) spank on the bare bottom? That added an element of sexual shame and embarrassment to the process that was, in my opinion, totally unnecessary. That shame and embarrassment were all the greater when siblings of the opposite sex witnessed it. I struggle to understand the justification for that. But, of course, we expect our wives to bare our bottoms for adult DD because we have sexual relationships with our wives. I feel as though spanking without nudity (school style) and spanking on the bare bottom (home style) are very different beasts in terms of psychological effect and potential effect on one’s future sexuality. Is that just me?
DeleteDoug
"But, of course, we expect our wives to bare our bottoms for adult DD because we have sexual relationships with our wives." I see bare bottom not as sexual thing, but as a safety thing. Adult spankings, using heavy instruments, have the potential to inflict quite a bit of damage. I personally believe that bare bottom, where the wife can see the damage being done in real-time, is much safer.
DeleteI suspect that school spankings were given over clothes in order to limit any sexual element, but I don't think it quite follows that spanking without clothes at home necessarily makes those more sexually loaded than school spankings. I have no doubt it reinforced the power differential and increased the embarrassment, but thatt doesn't make that shame designedly sexual in nature.
“I have no doubt it reinforced the power differential and increased the embarrassment, but thatt doesn't make that shame designedly sexual in nature.”
DeleteDan, I agree with you that with the kind of severe spankings given in adult DD, it is probably good to have the bottom bared so as to monitor the damage. Theoretically, that shouldn’t be necessary for childhood spanking: contemporary apologists for parental spanking argue that judicious corporal punishment shouldn’t be severe.
As to nudity reinforcing the power differential, I think that is definitely true for adults engaging in both DD and BDSM. But when I was a kid, the power differential between my parents and me was too great to need that kind of reinforcement. I do agree with you that spanking on the bare bottom wasn’t “designedly sexual in nature” when my parents did it. At least I hope it wasn’t. ( I think my parents simply did it the way their parents did it). But that’s the effect it had on me, all the more so when there was inadequate provision for privacy with my sisters in the house. I wonder if that’s why I now fantasize about my wife spanking me publicly. Did I eroticize shame and embarrassment as a psychological defence mechanism? Once again, my experiences may not apply to anyone else here. But I imagine there must be other people out there who are like me.
Doug
Doug, my Mother followed what was said from the pulpit. I can remember to this day being younger and hearing the minister saying to take down those pants and spank the devil out of them. I think my Mother, as well as other parents followed suit. My best friend and his sister were both spanked bare. My neighbor spanked her daughter bare. I think it was just part of the culture. I also think part of it was the humiliation factor. I think they wanted you to feel shame and embarrassment for your actions. I definitely feel a bit of shame now when my wife orders me to take my pants down. It’s so different than when we make love and our clothes come off. A totally different mindset. Like Dan, we were both sick on and off the past few weeks. DD had been on the back burner as well as sex. It’s been about two months of misery with work and sickness. Last night, I made an off comment remark to my wife. She told me, I’m tired of your moodiness. Tomorrow when you get home from work, I’m going to strap it out of you. You’re going to get a beating. I’m definitely not looking forward to coming home.
DeleteTh
Th, I’m sorry you haven’t been feeling well. I also sympathize with you getting the strap from your wife. I hope it isn’t too bad. I hate the strap! (It reminds me too much of my father’s belt). Fortunately, my wife doesn’t often use the strap.
DeleteI think you are right that spanking on the bare was a cultural thing back in the day. The church we went to was pretty liberal, so the pastor never preached about corporal punishment, but I know from the childhood gossip mill that bare bottom spankings were the norm. I was aware that girls got spanked in some families, but my sisters were exempt from corporal punishment. That made it doubly embarrassing to be spanked on the bare when my sisters were around. Maybe if they had gotten the same treatment, it would have felt less embarrassing for me.
I know exactly what you mean about feeling shame when your wife orders you to take down your pants for punishment. I feel the same way. It’s strange that baring your bottom feels so different from getting naked for sex. I think it’s because my wife remains fully clothed. Also, being only partially naked, with my pants and underwear around my knees, makes me feel more exposed and vulnerable than I would if I was completely naked. That must be because it taps into feelings I had when I was growing up. Another strange difference between spanking and sex for me is that spanking feels less private. Even though my wife only ever spanks me privately, somehow it doesn’t feel completely private. That feeling of being seen must also be the ghost of a feeling I had growing up with sisters in the house.
Doug
Doug,
DeleteI don’t know any girls that were exempt from CP. my best friends sister got it often from her Mom and Dad. She was a brat. In school, the secretary or gym coach would paddle the girls. Both female. The girls were not exempt but they didn’t get it as often as the boys.
Dan: Google's "AI Monster" grabbed my last two posts and threw them into the SPAM-can.
ReplyDeleteAny help . . .?
Great conversation that has gone far and wide. In regard to bare bottom spankings as a child, I was not spanked bare bottom at all that I can recall. My childhood spankings came to an end by around age 8 due to family issues. I was spanked fairly regularly as a small child - but usually with a switch or belt to my bare legs (as I often had on shorts). I don't really recall being spanked on the bottom with an implement. Switches and the belt were the common spanking mode in area of the Deep South in which I grew up.
ReplyDeleteHowever, as I've shared before, at the age of ten, an (attractive) aunt did give me a serious otk hair brushing over my underwear (but I still have the vivid memory of her pulling my shorts up into my crack before she began the spanking). Unlike most of the parents in that area, she spanked her two boys bare bottom otk with a hair brush. When they hit puberty, she would bend them over the bed and pull their underwear down just below their bottom. That spanking, terrifying at the time, morphed into sexual fantasy when I hit puberty - and almost certainly instilled my interest in F/M spanking. --al
Al, it would be interesting to know if your cousins feel the same as you do? Is this something you ever brought up to them in casual conversation? If so, what was the response? If no, than why not? I would think it would be easier to address this with a family member than a stranger. My cousins and I have had a few discussions about discipline.
Delete“That spanking, terrifying at the time, morphed into sexual fantasy when I hit puberty - and almost certainly instilled my interest in F/M spanking. --al”
DeleteAl, it is interesting that the memory of being spanked by your aunt morphed into a sexual fantasy only when you hit puberty. I might be weird, but that would have generated sexual fantasy for me well before puberty. When I was 8 or 9 I got in trouble with a teacher for making a smart assed remark. She was really angry, and after giving me an embarrassing scolding in front of my classmates, she told me to stay after class. I felt terrible about saying the stupid thing that angered her because I really liked her, and I was afraid she might not like me anymore. I was also afraid that she intended to spank me at the end of the day because she had actually spanked another boy in class one time. At the end of the day, when the other kids left, I approached her desk and apologized. I was close to tears because I was truly sorry for having angered her. She instantly softened and forgave me and let me off with a warning that I should go back to acting like the good, well mannered boy she knew me to be. I was relieved that she didn’t spank me or give me the strap. However, that night, and on many nights over a period of years, I fantasized about being spanked by her.
Doug
Doug,
DeleteMy experience was similar -with my second-grade teacher who also spanked. My fantasy was that she might spank me, morphing to (in memory) that she did spank me. It was so real, I think I told a playmate about it (bragged would be a more precise verb) but I didn’t experience it (consciously) as a sexual fantasy of any kind, I doubt I had much sense of sexuality at that time. It was just a “thing” that I forgot about as I got older. But it was vivid at the time.
Like you, I am opposed to spanking children, it’s a matter of being risk averse. Not all, but some children are probably harmed emotionally by the practice. Not knowing who is at risk, it's prudent to avoid it altogether. Spanking is for adults.
Alan
Doug, although I learned about the "birds and bees" on a playground at age nine, sexual fantasies for me - spanking or otherwise - did not arrive until almost age 12, coinciding with the onset of puberty (the physical aspects began to change about that same age). --al
Delete