“The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack in will.” ― Vince Lombardi Jr.
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club. Our weekly meeting of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline and/or Female Led (FLR) relationships.
Once again, before we get started I would like to extend a specific invitation to any of our female readers, if they still exist, to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. While I’ve always said the blog is open to both men and women, one of our commenters suggested I expressly invite our female readers to join the discussion. Please consider the invitation enthusiastically extended.
I hope you all had a great week. I’m bummed that my second favorite holiday has come and gone. Though, there still is a bit of Fall left, and the seasonal foods carry through to Thanksgiving.
We got mobbed by trick-or-treaters this year, probably because the weather wasn’t too bad, which is a rarity over Halloween where we live. What I still can’t figure out is the waves of junior high, and even high school, kids. In my day, we had better things to do, like drinking and doing drugs. What’s with kids these days??
Last week’s discussion was one of those in which, by the end of the week, I felt like we had a great discussion but I literally had to go back and check what the topic had been. Which is perfectly fine. The conversation meandered a lot, but we toughed on some great stuff. Reasons versus resets. Others knowing, and the associated vulnerability and embarrassment. Exceeding one’s limits. Asking for a spanking. Going to pros. Older women. Maternal discipline.
There was a lot of good stuff that I’ll need to go back and plumb for future topics. One that personally intrigued me:
When my wife was deciding whether to spank me or not, she commented that she was not my mother and never wanted to be acting as my mother. Then she proceeded to spank me just as my mother had -- OTK, bare bottom but not nude, with an implement, with scolding, no sexual connotations, but comfort afterwards. While I knew she was acting maternally, I never said so. I realized that I wanted her to be in loco parentis without realizing it or being confused by it. That was good for both of us.
The “in loco parentis” comment succinctly summarized something I’ve been feeling lately, but I think I’ll save it for a future topic.
Instead, I’ll go with this suggestion, also from KOJ:
Possible topic: Describe occasions where you know you are about to cross the line and earn yourself a spanking. Does that knowledge often act as a deterrent? Or do you often do it (whatever) anyway? If so, why? Are you testing her to see what will happen? Are you hoping to earn a spanking? Is your male ego just doing what it wants to do? Have you not been spanked enough for this particular behavior to have learned your lesson? Or ...?
I’ll take the liberty of also re-posting ZM’s responsive comment:
DD has allowed me to change behaviors and especially attitudes, but I can never think of a time that I chose to act differently or not exhibit an attitude because I thought it may result in a spanking. Rather, I have changed because DD allowed me to see things differently, and often from her perspective, and that is what brought about change.
The exception to this was when we were doing weekly check-ins with goals and punishments. Those did provide strong motivation, and I often changed my behavior to avoid punishment. Even there, however, I cannot think of a time that I chose to do something anyway, knowing it might result in punishment, nor did I want to test her. Rather, sometimes I did my best, or at least what I thought was my best, and it simply wasn't enough. Or sometimes there were things that I didn't have complete control over that kept me from meeting goals. And finally, especially with diet, I would go ahead and eat something because I wanted to, but always with my over-optimistic idea that I would work harder or follow the diet better the other days to still hit my target. I never thought "maybe this will get me punished, but I am going to do it anyway," but rather I thought "it will be ok, because I still have plenty of time to hit my target."
This one is kind of a tough one for me to answer, probably because there really aren’t that many times that I know I am about to cross the line. And, it’s very rare, if ever, that I test her to see what will happen, and I can confidently say that I never do something in hopes of earning a spanking.
The closest I come to going over a known line is probably not paying enough attention to a known risk because I have, in fact, repeatedly gotten away with similar behavior. Though, even that is pretty rare.
And, on a very few occasions, I probably do consciously decide to take the risk because it's something I want to do more than I fear the spanking for doing it.
A counter-example may serve best to illustrate that the underlying reason probably lies in KOJ’s question: “Have you not been spanked enough for this particular behavior to have learned your lesson?” I talked about how a few weeks ago Anne thought I was driving too fast and threatened not just one spanking, but a spanking every day for a week, if I got a ticket. What did I do? I slowed down. Reluctantly and grudgingly, but I slowed down.
What would have happened if she had threatened just one spanking? Honestly, there is a good chance I would have taken the risk. I’ve been spanked dozens of times, and a ticket didn’t seem very likely, so the cost-benefit analysis of speeding might have tilted in the direction of doing what I wanted. But, getting spanked every day for a week? Just the thought of that was “enough.”
That’s a fairly unique case, in which I did engage in some conscious risk assessment. Usually, I either tend to drift over lines without thinking about them, or the offense itself is about being careless and forgetful.
The best example is probably my ongoing problem with leaving doors unlocked or not ensuring that the garage door closes fully before I go inside. It happens fairly often, even though it really pisses Anne off. If I know it pisses her off, why do I still forget? I’m definitely not testing her, or deliberately disobeying, or hoping for a spanking.
And, it’s not like I’m consciously blowing off her concerns even if I don’t share them to the same extent. Instead, I simply get distracted and don’t notice a door is unlocked before I leave or get distracted and don’t watch the garage door go all the way down when I go into the house.
Those failings definitely are my fault, but there also is the issue of whether Anne is escalating enough to guarantee that she overcomes my forgetfulness. The fact is, we have talked about making that a “no tolerance” offense, and she always agrees that it should be . . . then she lets me off the hook.
It happened just last week. I came back from a dog walk. Thirty minutes later, I was sitting in my office and Anne was leaving for the gym when she yelled up that the garage door was open . . . again. I yelled down a somewhat shaky apology. I really expected I might hear something like, “Well, I’m leaving. So, we’ll take care of your spanking when I get back.” Nope, she just left and that was the end of it.
Hence, the reason I chose the Lombardi quote, above. I assume that when Lombardi referred to “lack of will,” he was talking about the unsuccessful person lacking it. But, it could also be the coach/boss/leader’s lack of will, couldn’t it? They say they want a particular result, but are they really escalating the consequences to the point that the subject will really get how bad the consequences will be, and how certain they will be, if they don’t step up?
As another example, several of us have talked about how our wives have used DD to put some boundaries or limits around alcohol. That’s one where my forgetfulness borders on chemically-induced amnesia. After a couple of drinks, it’s like the possibility of a spanking simply never enters my mind.
I’m honestly not sure whether DD or threats of DD would change that, since it does seem to just vanish from my conscious decision-making process. But, would that be the case if she carried through with a threat like the threatened week of spankings for a ticket? I really don’t know, but I do think the willingness to escalate is key. I’ve used this spanking drawing several times, but that’s because it illustrates the escalation concept so perfectly.
There also is the issue of warnings. As I said, Anne did give me a very strong, direct warning about what the consequences would be if I got a speeding ticket on our trip. But, that really is the exception. I do think that, at least in some circumstances, I might toe that line better, instead of drifting right over it, if she made it unmistakably clear what would happen otherwise.
None of this is to say that DD is not a deterrent and hasn’t successfully been so. It’s just been an imperfect one. Sometimes it’s because I’m willing to take a bit of a risk for something I want to do (speeding, socializing, etc.). Sometimes it’s because I don’t see the line that I’m about to cross. Sometimes the behavior itself is something I’m just not paying enough attention to.
I can’t speak much to ZM’s examples. We haven’t really used DD to reinforce some concrete goal, like losing weight. If we did, I suspect that my key failing would be similar to his. I would make some excuse to indulge some activity I know is bad for me, thinking that I would double-down later, but it would instead lead to more and more backsliding.
A somewhat similar example that is an issue for me is procrastination. I often just don't get much done even though I have plenty of time. And, it's not always minor stuff or things that Anne doesn't care about. There have been medical things that Anne was probably more concerned about than I was, yet I didn't jump on getting them attended to right away. In those cases, making spanking a more effective deterrent probably would require more rigorous self-reporting, because sometimes Anne isn't aware of even the existence of the more important things I have on my to-do list and/or isn't aware that I haven't made any progress.
How about you? Has spanking been a strong deterrent? Has in proven more effective for some things and less so for others? What makes the difference? Do you sometimes consciously know you are about to cross the line and earn yourself a spanking but do it anyway? Why?
Ladies, do you recognize when your husband is going to cross that line? Is it something you seem him do often, despite your best DD efforts? Why do you think that happens? Have you thought about escalating the number or severity of punishments? Are there other things you’ve done to nip the problem in the bud?
Have a great week! FYI, we are off on another vacation next week and into the following week. I should have reliable connectivity but it’s likely I won’t get a post out while we’re gone. I’m going to play it by ear and will try to keep up with comments to some extent.
My wife doesn't use specific threats all that often, but there are a few instances where they have been effective in changing my behavior. It's been especially helpful in overcoming procrastination. As an example, one or the other of us tends to take charge on preparing a meal, with the understanding that the spouse is responsible for all cleanup. It may seem like a small thing, but it drives my wife crazy when dirty dishes sit for any extended period. I, on the other hand, have no problem letting it go until the next day. This situation festered for quite a while until she laid down the law with her hairbrush. No more problems.
ReplyDeleteIt's an instance where Beth became very specific about expectations, which is generally not the case. As I've said before, I'm working on controlling my temper when I become frustrated. I can sometimes use the implied threat of a spanking to catch myself in time, but the "cause and effect" is less clear than I would like.
Kevin
Interesting, Kevin, we also had that exact same situation. My wife did most of the cooking, and for a long time my male chauvinist brain thought she should clean up, too -- wives in the kitchen and all that. This was a bone of contention way before we instituted DD. For a while, she was resentful without saying anything. Then she said she thought that if she cooked, I should clean up. I was resistant, but I knew I had no reasonable argument other than to be a male chauvinist pig. So I started doing clean up -- the next day. I would give the excuse that we were tired after dinner, and we had kids to get to bed, and if I cleaned up we would have no time to ourselves before we went to bed. She put up with that for a number of years.
DeleteWhen we started DD, this issue came up within the first few months. "I would like you to do the dishes shortly after dinner," she said to me one evening. "And I want to do the dishes the next morning!" I replied. We started to argue. I gave her all my excuses. I raised my voice. Then I turned to sarcasm: "Well, of course we should do it your way, Princess!"
She said nothing for about 30 seconds. So far our DD had been mostly about being disrespectful to her. I knew exactly what I had said, and that she would consider it disrespectful (though I had previously argued that sarcasm is just humor). I also knew I was being unreasonable about the dishes. I didn't have a leg to stand on. It was just my male ego: It was bad enough that I had to do the dishes; no way I wanted her to enforce WHEN I did them! During this pause, I realized that I had crossed the line. And I probably knew before that moment that I was about to. So why did I? My male ego, for sure. But also me not fully agreeing that she was right. Is sarcasm always disrespectful? Do the dishes absolutely need to be done in the evening? No and no! It wasn't like I was objectively wrong, my brain told me. This is just a battle of wills, and in that case, the male ego should win! Even if she has the power of the paddle. ...
Then she said very softly, so the kids in the next room couldn't hear, "After the kids are in bed, you're getting spanked. First you're getting spanked for being disrespectful to your wife. Then you're getting another spanking about the dishes. And that spanking will continue until you see it my way."
Miracle of miracles, thereafter the dishes were done shortly after dinner!
KOJ
I haven't had big problems with procrastinating on household tasks, but forgetfulness or sloppiness around them has gotten me in trouble Our division of labor around dinner has always been she cooks and I clean up. Unfortunately, I had a habit of forgetting to empty and clean a rice cooker. After it happened two or three times, she gave me a *very* hard spanking. It was probably the first time I felt that the punishment was out of proportion to the crime. At first, that rattled me fairly profoundly. Even though it was just one spanking, it felt like there was a big diminution in my control because it was the first time the severity of a spanking didn't match my preconceived notions of what was "fair." Over time, being disturbed and disquieted by it itself became a turn-on.
Delete"...it felt like there was a big diminution in my control because it was the first time the severity of a spanking didn't match my preconceived notions of what was 'fair.'" - I can see where that would actually be pretty earth-shaking, both for the reason of reduction in your control and also because it would cause a healthy fear of just where she might take it in the future.
Delete-ZM
". . .and also because it would cause a healthy fear of just where she might take it in the future."
DeleteExactly!
My wife took things completely out of my control early on. She spanked so hard and so fast that I quickly lost the ability to maintain any sense of decorum. I would beg and plead, which she would totally ignore. "It's over when I think you have learned your lesson, not when you say you have," she would say.
DeleteKOJ
KOJ,
DeleteMy wife spanks very hard (and sometimes long), but unfortunately she pays too much attention to how I am taking it, so ultimately the spanking ends when I want it to (or at least when my visible reaction to the spanking becomes too strong for her), rather than when she feels like I have been truly punished.
-ZM
ZM wrote: “My wife spanks very hard (and sometimes long), but unfortunately she pays too much attention to how I am taking it, so ultimately the spanking ends when I want it to (or at least when my visible reaction to the spanking becomes too strong for her), rather than when she feels like I have been truly punished.”
DeleteZM, your wife probably feels that you have been “truly punished” once your body language begins to show that you are in distress. I think it becomes tricky for her if you ask her to disregard her intuition of the appropriate time to stop.
GH
Hi GJ,
DeleteI agree that asking her to disregard how I am taking it is a big ask. I am not sure that I would be able to do it if the roles were reversed. However, I do think that with experience, she can get used to the idea that even though during the whole thing, I might act as if she is killing me, but then afterwards I am just fine.
She kind of went through the same thing with marking. In the beginning, she felt horrible about leaving any marks, but then over time, she realized that the damage was very temporary, which made her more comfortable with leaving marks, to the point that sometimes she is disappointed when I don't have marks or when the marks don't last very long. This transformation is incomplete at best, though, since she still generally hates to see bruises - of any sort, not only of my bottom - and she usually stops a spanking at the first sight of blood, even if it is only a tiny speck. But she does continue to improve on this.
-ZM
ZM, sometimes I feel out of my league among other spanked husbands here because if your wife has ever come close to drawing blood with a spanking, I would consider her to be a very harsh spanker. That brings me back to something I have wondered about previously, whether the desire for spankings to be harsh is like a drug one needs in ever higher doses. To be clear, I also wish my wife would up the dosage, but I think my wife has some way to go to match the spankings you and other guys get.
DeleteGH
I mentioned sarcasm in my reply to Kevin above. Over the years I received many, many spankings for being sarcastic. After a while, I knew full well that I was going to get a spanking if I spoke to my wife sarcastically. But I can't count the number of times I did it anyway. Why? Several reasons: I didn't completely agree with her that sarcasm is disrespectful. I didn't want her deciding for me that it was. I hadn't been spanked enough about it to realize that I had to see it her way. I wasn't challenging her right to spank me but I was challenging her having the right to decide that sarcasm = disrespect.
ReplyDeleteMuch of this had to do with the way we grew up and our professions. I grew up in a household where sarcasm was used a lot -- and considered the highest form of humor. I could win an argument with my mother by being sarcastic -- because she would burst out laughing! I can't ever remember being spanked by my mother for sarcasm, and she was very handy with the wooden spoon and the hairbrush for many other issues.
My wife, on the other hand, grew up in a family where sarcasm was considered nasty -- biting, condescending, rebellious. Her parents did not allow it. They didn't spank, but they did send her to her room, ground her, suspend her allowance, etc., etc.
On top of this family background, I became a journalist. That stereotype of the journalist personality is quite accurate: doubting, disbelieving, questioning, snide, caustic, sarcastic. The newsroom was full of sarcasm. The city editor would scream across the newsroom when one of us was rushing to finish up on deadline: "Hey, Joe, why don't we just schedule your !@#$% story for sometime next !@#$% week?"
My wife was in a customer service industry, and later real estate. The customer/client is always right. You respond to them gently, even when they're dead wrong. You help them see the issue more clearly. You never, ever, use sarcasm.
This became a long-standing battle between us, bother before DD and after. I would argue that there's nothing wrong with sarcasm. I even would argue, "That's who I am. It's part of my personality. Are you trying to change my personality?"
She would argue that sarcasm has its place. "Use it in the newsroom," she would say. "Just don't use it with me."
This went on for years ... until she took up the hairbrush (and especially the bath brush). Suddenly there was a new factor involved. Sarcasm was painful to me (physically), just as it was painful for her (emotionally). But it must have taken a hundred spankings before I mostly stopped being sarcastic with her. Partly because it was a hard habit to break, even with hairbrush help. Partly because I truly didn't agree with her position, and my male ego thought that I should only be spanked for things that I thought were bad, and not if she was the one who thought the behavior was bad. (This happened with drinking, too, but that's another comment.) I didn't want to be spanked, but I DID want to resist -- because, well, she was just wrong. She shouldn't get so offended! This was ME, who I am, and she shouldn't be trying to change me -- all the marriage experts say that!
It took me a long time to come to the position that marriage must include compromise. And DD really helped me see it that way, because when I refused to compromise, it hurt my rear end!
So I admit that I intentionally crossed the line in my use of sarcasm. And of course paid the price. I dramatically reduced my use of sarcasm with her, from maybe three times a week to three times a year. Progress! But I never gave it up completely. Occasionally it was worth getting my butt blistered for!
KOJ
Interesting. KOJ. Beth and I each come from a very different set of family dynamics. Her parents were much more proper and family members generally treated each other nicer than mine did. Both families were loving, but mine was far less reserved. Sarcasm is still lost on my inlaws and I have to watch what I say with them.
DeleteAfter being around them, I could see why Beth had no experience with spanking from childhood. Her upper middle class parents don't seem like the type to use it.
Kevin
I realize with all that I wrote, I didn't address warnings! My wife would occasionally give me warnings about using sarcasm. We would be having a discussion or disagreement, and she could see where my brain (and tongue) were headed. "Now, don't get sarcastic!" she would say. Or even, "You know what happens when you use sarcasm."
DeleteUsually these warnings would serve as a deterrent. I would change what I was about to say. But sometimes I just had the best line on the tip of my tongue, so I would say it anyway. I was sort of proud of my best sarcastic lines.
She would sigh and say, "Go get me the bath brush." Or if she had her hairbrush nearby, she would say, "Get over here and take down your pants." Or if the kids were around, she'd say, "You know what's coming later." The bottom pays for what the mouth says!
KOJ
"Partly because I truly didn't agree with her position, and my male ego thought that I should only be spanked for things that I thought were bad, and not if she was the one who thought the behavior was bad. (This happened with drinking, too, but that's another comment.)"
DeleteFor me, the behavior that most fits your comment actually is drinking. It's probably the closest we come to something that is a personality element. Hanging out with friends over beers is a core part of my social life, to the point that it's been part of who I am for 40 years. But, even good personality traits can be unbalanced, right? So, I get what you mean about coming to learn that compromise is necessary.
I too tend to be pretty sarcastic, and I agree that it's not always disrespectful. It can be, but sometimes it's a legitimate form of making a point, sometimes it's a form of teasing, etc.
If sarcasm was a guaranteed spanking offence I'd never be able to sit down. LOL. Cheers GLM.
DeleteSame here
DeleteI agree with you that sarcasm has its uses. I also agree with my wife that she had the authority to ban it coming from me to her, and to enforce that ban with corporal punishment.
DeleteKOJ
It has been mentioned many times on this blog: getting a spanking -or a series of spankings for behavior your wife feels is obnoxious-- while you think it's harmless or even positive—can and has changed the spankee’s mind to an opinion of agreement or near agreement with her on the issue.
DeleteI --and from other comments, quite a few others—have been startled to realize this happens. Before the hairbrush or strap comes out, you firmly believe you are right and she is wrong. But when it's over, you are much closer to her point of view. On bigger things like personality traits, it doesn’t happen overnight, but it does happen; and on lesser things (dishes in the sink), it can happen overnight.
Now, likely some and maybe much of this is a genuine “conversion,” i.e., “she is right about this, and I did deserve the punishment.” I am glad she straightened me out. But some of it must also come from the effects of being spanked, perhaps repeatedly, for the same thing (e.g., sarcasm or foul language) and the aversive effect of being spanked. She has spanked you into submission.
I am bringing this up in the context of KJOJ’s post (above) regarding sarcasm. But what he describes, common as it may be. It is also something that both women and men in F/M DD relationships often claim doesn’t or shouldn’t happen. Here is a direct quote from a woman who posted voluminously on this blog (Danielle” and is likely representative:
“I don’t think you can spank someone into submission to an opinion or a belief they honestly don’t hold. And even if you could, I believe it would be wrong to do so. “
But isn’t exactly that what a punishment spanking (especially a series of them”) is designed to do.? Please understand, I am not complaining. I am glad my wife has “helped me to see the light” on many issues and, in fact, earlier in our relationship many of the rules were also mutual goals. I wouldn’t change much if any of it.
But the power to discipline is also the power to change both behavior and opinions, including behavior and opinions you did not know you wanted to change.
Alan
Alan, for me, the extent to which DD can change my opinion is very tightly tied to the kind of behavior and our disagreement about it. When a spanking genuinely changes my mind about whether something was, indeed, a spankable problem, it tends to be about some disrespect directed at her or being a little too free with opinions that others might take offense at. It's a lot like KOJ's sarcasm -- at the time I say it I don't see it as a problem. When she confronts me with it, I don't see it as a problem. But, at some point over her knee, I get her perspective.
DeleteBut there are other times when I might capitulate on something to avoid a spanking, but it's not really that I have changed my opinion. Like, I mentioned her recent threat on a trip that if I got a speeding ticket I would get a week's worth of spankings. Even if the spankings had happened, I am pretty sure I would not have genuinely come around to her perspective that driving slower for 9 hours and getting home later were worth it to avoid the fairly speculative risk of a ticket. Or, JR's wife's focus on language might be another good example. I think "ain't" is perfectly acceptable in certain context. There also are a couple of pejoratives I use a lot that have become to be seen as more problematic than they used to be. Honestly, I don't care. I'm not the type to let some post-modernist liberal arts professors tell me what I am allowed or not allowed to say. So, if Anne were to spank for that, I *might* capitulate, but I doubt I would ever actually come around to her view. So, in that sense I get what Danielle said about not being able to spanking someone into a belief they genuinely don't hold.
DCC
DeleteAlan: “But the power to discipline is also the power to change both behavior and opinions, including behavior and opinions you did not know you wanted to change.”
Discipline definitely has the power to change behaviour. If it didn’t, what would the point be? Whether it can change an opinion or a belief is another question. I don’t think I have ever been spanked for a difference of opinion or belief, but I suppose that depends how you define those words. Take Dan’s example of driving over the speed limit. My wife tells me to slow down if I go more than about 10 k/h over the limit. Left to my own devices, I might go up to 20k/h over in certain circumstances. That is a behavioural issue stemming from a difference of opinion about what speed is safe. If my wife threatens to spank me if I don’t slow down or if I get a ticket, she is not concerned about changing my opinion. What matters to her is changing my behaviour, and discipline works well for that.
A difference of opinion about appropriate speed limits, however, doesn’t impinge on any beliefs about the nature of reality or any fundamental values. Fortunately, my wife and I rarely have arguments about such things because we are philosophically compatible. For example, we would both describe ourselves as “liberal”, socially and politically. If she was an extreme social conservative or a MAGA style fascist, and she tried to impose her beliefs on me, I would not be able to submit to such a denial of my own values. I’m not even sure we would be able to stay married, to be honest.
GH
I never get warnings. We have our list of infractions and I know what my behavior should be. I know I am subject to a spanking for any violations. There are times when I am spanked for something not on the list specifically and that is also within her authority. When I near a line and realize it, I never cross it intentionally to either 'test' her or to see if I can get away with it. Nor would I cross a line to intentionally get spanked. As far as the effectiveness of her spankings, they are very much a deterrent. My behavior on some things is nearly totally cured. Most of my punishments now are for things I forget, not that I did not know better. I think I have related this here before.... when spanked for forgetting something, she will deliver the needed amount of swats and ask, have you learned and will not forget again? I always answer, Yes Ma'am. She then says, well let's be sure and gives me another dose of spanking.
ReplyDeleteForgetfulness sometimes seems very hard to correct, because almost by definition it is an unconscious process. But, it's also kind of a form of sloppiness, and I think we can, in fact, train ourselves to pay more attention to details and to be more rigorous in the way we approach common tasks.
DeleteIt is certainly harder to change unconscious processes, but by no means impossible. In fact, if we were to honestly evaluate our lives, probably most of what we do is unconscious, and the vast majority of that unconscious behavior is learned behavior. So, given sufficient effort, even these unconscious behaviors can be changed.
Delete-ZM
ZM, very true.
DeleteMy wife would say, "If you forgot then you weren't spanked hard enough last time. We'll fix that right now!"
DeleteKOJ
To KOJ’s question: “Have you not been spanked enough for this particular behavior to have learned your lesson?”
ReplyDeleteI can recall one time when my wife permanently changed my behaviour by punishing me. I think I may have previously told this story when Dan asked about most memorable spankings. Because English is not my wife’s mother tongue, I had a bad habit of “helping” her to find words in conversations with friends. She hated that because it made her feel stupid. Sometimes I would even finish sentences for her. She also complained frequently that I monopolized conversations, essentially silencing her by talking too much myself while she was searching for words. She complained about that for years before FLR, but I didn’t accept the criticism. I thought she was overreacting. Well, after we began FLR/DD, I did that one too many times when another couple were at our house. My wife lost her temper and scolded me in front of the other couple. It wasn’t a normal scolding. She was so visibly angry and so critical of me that it almost felt like a public spanking, although spanking wasn’t mentioned. Afterwards, there was a stunned silence. My face must have been scarlet, and I was unable to find anything to say. I don’t know what our friends thought. Maybe they were embarrassed to have witnessed that because they left shortly afterwards. When they were gone, my wife angrily told me to go to the bedroom and lower my pants. She was still livid and was practically yelling at me as she laid into me with the strap as hard as she could. The strapping didn’t last long, but the pain shocked me because it was so far beyond anything she had done before or has done since. She then ordered me to get out of her sight, so I had to sleep in the guest room. I cried that night because I felt so alienated from her. The next morning I apologized tearfully. She forgave me, but admonished me to “never ever do that again.” That was quite a few years ago, and I can honestly say that my wife succeeded in permanently eradicating that behaviour. In fact, since then my wife has become dominant in conversations with family and friends, doing most of the talking while I listen respectfully.
GH
That's amazing that one scolding and spanking made such a difference! I had a tendency to need 10 or 20 of those before the behavior change registered long-term.
DeleteKOJ
Real spousal anger is a powerful motivator.
DeleteAbsolutely true about anger. The few spankings I have received when my wife was visibly angry were very powerful not only in the impact on my bottom, but also the impact on my behavior and attitude.
Delete-ZM
Same here, though the attitude impact hasn't always been straightforward, because we haven't always been in agreement about whether the anger was justified. It did impact my attitude, but to a big extent that was because I was getting yelled at when (a) I didn't fully agree it was merited and (b) given our dynamic I couldn't do much about it.
DeleteKOJ, I think it took that demonstration of anger to make me understand how hurtful that habit had been to my wife. And being banished to the guest room for the night extended the punishment emotionally. I felt terrible about having made her feel that way for failing to have listened to her. Another consideration, I suppose, was that the behaviour in question concerned the way we interacted with other people, so if I had not changed my behaviour, I was probably at risk of serious public humiliation.
DeleteGH
I’ve addressed this before, but I wish my wife would actually spank me when she is angry. I think it would send the message home clearly. I think the scolding would be a lot more beneficial and the point would be driven home. My wife never raises her voice. She despises it.
DeleteShe gives me that look and immediately states why she is upset with me. It’s something I’ve touched on with her and I’m hoping she will drive the point home when need be. We were suppose to have a reset last night with a sever thrashing, but her cold progressively worsened. She said We’d or Thurs, we would have a long “discussion” where I will thrash that ass.
T
Personally, I think cold fury is way more intimidating than yelling and screaming.
DeleteSpanking has become a deterrent for the little things. I already do the cooking. My wife handles laundry and some of the other related housework. She had multiple surgeries a few years back and I had no choice but to pick up the slack. She tells me how much of a wonderful husband she has and that her friends do nothing but bitch and moan about theirs. DD seems to only work in our relationship with my attitude, raising my voice, anger, and some sarcasm towards her. All of the other issues raised here, don’t apply to me. I don’t forget to do things like close doors ect. and consciously made a decision to cut back on my alcohol intake. Although, when we get together with friends, we tend to drink a bit more. My wife has zero desire to punish me for not going to the gym, food intake, alcohol ect. Since the thrashing’s have had an uptick, I am much more conscious about what comes out of my mouth. I’ve actually had the nerve to ask my wife to up my punishment when my attitude is unacceptable and I even start to get angry or raise my voice. We had a discussion in bed last night about how much better behaved I am after a spanking. I can’t believe I requested this, but I asked her to up the severity of my thrashings. She already spanks very hard, but I think she is stopping too soon. Of course Dan, the lights were off because I was too embarrassed to talk about this face to face. She did make a comment about how much more loving I am, after a severe thrashing. She told me last night, that tonight we would have a reset so to speak. She plans to strap my bottom long and hard. She wants remorse, contrition and a positive attitude moving forward. I thanked her for the upcoming punishment and I appreciate her love. She responded, you might not be too happy about my love tomorrow. I have a pit in my stomach today, because I’m still sore from three days ago.
ReplyDeleteT
"I can’t believe I requested this, but I asked her to up the severity of my thrashings." I do that pretty frequently, though more about frequency/consistency than severity. Though, I have told her that she should try not to get so squeamish as early about the state of my butt.
DeleteHi T,
Delete"I can’t believe I requested this, but I asked her to up the severity of my thrashings. She already spanks very hard, but I think she is stopping too soon. Of course Dan, the lights were off because I was too embarrassed to talk about this face to face." - My wife usually stops too soon as well. Of course, at the moment I am kind of happy she stops, but later I recognize that she stopped too soon.
I totally get the embarrassment thing. The strange thing is my wife and I talk about DD all the time, but still I am embarrassed by it, especially if it is asking her to be stricter or something like that.
Also, a few weeks ago - the last time I got a punishment spanking - my wife sent me a picture of implements on the bed and told me I was going to get it later. I absolutely had a pit in my stomach all day, though it was not so much because I was afraid of getting spanked, but rather because I had literally no idea why, and I wondered what landmine I might have stepped on.
-ZM
"I totally get the embarrassment thing. The strange thing is my wife and I talk about DD all the time, but still I am embarrassed by it, especially if it is asking her to be stricter or something like that." I can't say we talk about it "all the time," and most of our discussions do take place with the lights off, but I get what you mean about being embarrassed no matter how often you talk about it.
DeleteI can't really think of an example of a time I got spanked, or told I was going to be spanked, and had no idea why. There are times that I've been surprised by the timing, but she almost always gives me the reason at the same time she orders it (though usually the reason is unstated because we both already know).
Well, my "all the time" was certainly hyperbole, but we do talk about DD often. Probably at least every few days, something is said about it at least.
DeleteAnd yeah, it was that unknown reason for a spanking that really got to me. I simply couldn't imagine what it could be for, and my mind was trying to think of some possible reason. I really didn't like that and found that less than beneficial, so hopefully that won't happen again.
-ZM
I can understand how that would not be beneficial. I don't think it would be for me either.
DeleteT wrote “I can’t believe I requested this, but I asked her to up the severity of my thrashings. She already spanks very hard, but I think she is stopping too soon. Of course Dan, the lights were off because I was too embarrassed to talk about this face to face.”
DeleteT, I totally get being too embarrassed to talk about spanking face to face. I feel embarrassed just to say the word out loud, so I communicate with my wife about it in writing. With reference to my rant below, that’s why it hurt me yesterday when she said she doesn’t believe I feel embarrassed about DD because I wouldn’t write about it if I did. I write about it precisely because I am too embarrassed to talk about it. I feel emotionally vulnerable when I write to her, but her comment made me feel that she doubts the sincerity of the things I write…and that she doesn’t understand how I feel. So now I feel that I can’t communicate with her at all about spanking. If she does it, I will submit. But if she never does it again, I think I will just accept without complaint that DD is no longer a part of my life.
GH
My wife was always very clear on the reasons. I think she really enjoyed scolding me, with my pants down standing in front of her and forced to look her in the eye. Talk about embarrassment!
DeleteKOJ
T,
ReplyDeleteWhen it's happening, you'll wish you had kept your mouth shut. Afterwards, you'll be glad you spoke up. Those things we say in the dark tend to be our unvarnished true feelings.
KOJ
Koj,
DeleteI know your are correct on that one. I woke up this morning and I am already dreading tonight. I should have kept my mouth shut. I do feel that I need it though and have gone too long with the ebbs and flows of DD. I’ve been a lot more direct lately. Im going to ask her if she would like for me to order a few more implements. She loves the strap we have. It’s an old Italian style heavy belt and of course the hairbrush.
T
Sorry you're going to spend a day of dread, even if you literally asked for it.
DeleteMy wife much preferred implements she could use OTK and that could be found around the house: hairbrush, bath brish, big wooden spoon, cutting board with a handle. She tried a doubled over belt but found it hard to control.
DeleteKOJ
DD and spanking have very much altered my behavior for the better, for both big things and small. As I've said before, the biggest issue we both wanted was for me to change was to reduce my drinking, which took quite awhile and many hard spankings. I don't overdo it anymore, and knowing I will be spanked is the main reason for that. Another big thing for her is my driving, which has also resulted in some hard spankings. Now, that is no longer a problem. Iam not sarcastic and usually do my share of housework, but I still get spanked for leaving the toilet seat up or having my cell out during dinner. One thing I sometimes do is to get overly "animated" when talking about politics, and I have requested she give me warnings, and spankings if the warnings were not heeded. Because we do maintenance spankings and I keep a journal, she is well aware of what I need. I often get spankings to reduce stress, and she is always happy to provide them.
ReplyDelete"I don't overdo it anymore, and knowing I will be spanked is the main reason for that." While it ebbs and flows, I definitely can't say I don't overdo it anymore, despite many spankings for it.
DeleteI forgot to mention that about a year ago, we decided to increase the maintenance spankings from once to twice a week. This has proven to work out very well, and reduce the frequency of disciplinary spankings. Getting set up, reading the journal, maybe some corner time, and the spanking will take about a half hour, but the actual paddling will usually last only 5 or 6 minutes. It's a very nice, intimate, ritual we both enjoy.
ReplyDeleteNorton, I think that’s where we are heading. I don’t do a lot wrong in the relationship to earn big disciplinary spankings. I believe my wife will be giving me weekly “maintenance” thrashings to keep me in line.
DeleteT
Hi Dan,
ReplyDeleteThe topic this week, while simple in itself, ties in with quite a few other things.
As I mentioned in my comment that you quoted, I cannot think of a time that I chose to act differently or not exhibit an attitude because I thought it may result in a spanking. However, my response was partly due to the way KOJ stated the question; since he didn't address warnings in the question, I was thinking with regard to self-awareness that I was crossing a line (and fear of getting a spanking for it) acting as a deterrent that changes my behavior. In the absence of warnings - which is the usual state, since my wife hardly ever uses warnings - I am usually blissfully unaware that I am close to crossing a line. I am more like you when you said: "usually, I either tend to drift over lines without thinking about them, or the offense itself is about being careless and forgetful."
If warnings are taken into consideration, then everything changes. But my wife has pretty much only used warnings for focusing too much on my phone when we are around her family all day. When she has texted me a warning, I have stopped using my phone immediately unless I had a very valid reason to continue using the phone (something that would be so clear that she would certainly agree with me).
I relate to what you said about taking risks because of getting by with something before. I think that pretty much sums up my entire approach to life so far. In those cases, it is not that I decide to cross the line, but rather it is that I have convinced myself that the line really isn't there, or that it only applies to other people. Also, in those too frequent cases where I take risks, getting spanked is the least of my worries, since usually death, severe injury, or other catastrophic results are also real possibilities.
But back to more mundane day-to-day life, the problem is mostly that forgetfulness, sloppiness, and procrastination all work together to push me over the line without me even thinking about it. I think the answer to this probably would be her using warnings much more frequently to make me aware of things, and occasionally punishing me severely and/or repeatedly to make sure that my baseline level of awareness goes up. She changed my frequency and care in handwashing by repeatedly reminding me and threatening me of a punishment so severe that it was burned into my mind without it ever happening. Even forgetfulness can be extinguished if the threat (or memory) of punishment is on your mind enough. In the end, she absolutely can change my awareness on things that simply aren't on my mind, but only if she has the will to do so.
Several days ago, I had something happen that was pretty much a perfect example of how things usually go for us. My wife went over to our shop early, while I was getting ready. I intended to be a few minutes behind her, but I checked a few things on the computer, kept thinking of different little things to do or take with me, and in the end puttered around for most of an hour. I just really wasn't getting going because I didn't really feel like going. Only when I was walking to the shop did I start to feel like maybe I was in trouble. When I got there, my wife was beyond stressed, and while she was probably more stressed than she should have been, she had a hard time coming down from it, and she was just kind of off all day. So, my screwing around in the morning pretty much ruined her whole day. Nothing was said of it, but when we were doing something intimate that night, she kind of got a stern look on her face for a second and playfully slapped my leg, and said "that's for being late today." So this was a case where I crossed a line without really thinking about it, and she let me off with a slap on the wrist. If she instead had given me a huge spanking that left me sore for days, it probably would have greatly increased my awareness going forward.
-ZM
"I relate to what you said about taking risks because of getting by with something before. I think that pretty much sums up my entire approach to life so far. In those cases, it is not that I decide to cross the line, but rather it is that I have convinced myself that the line really isn't there, or that it only applies to other people."
DeleteThat's kind of the case with me, though it's usually not so much that I don't think the line is there or that it doesn't apply to me but, rather, that I either don't think it's that likely that I will get caught or that it will blow up in my face, or that I think if things do blow it will be survivable (physically, economically, reputionally . . . whatever.)
"But back to more mundane day-to-day life, the problem is mostly that forgetfulness, sloppiness, and procrastination all work together to push me over the line without me even thinking about it." That's definitely the same for me, but when those things happen they don't tend to have a direct effect on Anne. At most, maybe I do something sloppy, or I procrastinate, and I end up costing us money that wouldn't have been spent otherwise. But, she tends not to notice that kind of thing. So, correcting something like that definitely would require more self-reporting from me.
I don't really envy you working closely with your wife. Anne and I had work that overlapped for a couple of years early on in our marriage. Her attitude now is "Never again."
My wife and I could never have worked together. Before DD we would have been arguing every day. After DD I would have been spanked every day.
DeleteKOJ
Believe me, I am well aware of the possible difficulties of working together. So far, it has gone really well, but of course we are pretty new to the experience, so who knows what I will say about it after a few years. My wife and I get along very well - much better than most couples I have seen, based on my admittedly outside view of their relationships - but working together will inevitably bring new tensions to our relationship from time to time.
Delete-ZM
Just found your blog from Julie's and it's very well written. I completely understand about the taking the risk. It's like a form of gambling. Maybe you win, maybe you lose but, honestly, isn't losing still a win..eventually when you can sit down again. ;)
ReplyDeleteI look forward to following more of your insights. I hope you'll read some of my stories on my blog. I'd be interested in your opinion of my accuracy in describing a male submissive's feelings. I'll be posting your blog in my links! Happy Tails. ;)
Thanks, Jon. I will take a look though it may be a while as we are heading out on vacation for a couple of weeks. I also may not be the best person to describe a male submissive's feelings. My dynamic is very focused on domestic discipline and while it has some Female Led elements, I don't really consider myself to be a submissive.
DeleteJon, what is the name of your blog? I wouldn’t mind having a look. Unlike Dan, I am definitely a submissive. I am submissive to the point that if I see a M/F spanking picture, I identify with the woman. GH
DeleteIn case Jon doesn't respond, click on his name to go to his profile. It's listed there.
DeleteFair enough. Have a good trip.
ReplyDeleteThanks!
DeleteDan, in your initial note, you reference the previous comment about maternal discipline. While I guess I can intellectually understand how DD could feel that way to people raised in a spanking environment - particularly where the mother was the spanker. For me however - and I suspect others not raised in that environment - the idea of wifely DD being conflated in any way with maternal vibes is not only a null concept, it is positively creepy.
ReplyDeleteMy wife doesn’t threaten at all - not her style. When she deems a spanking necessary she does it. This is usually because I’ve forgotten to do something such as put an appointmyent in the calendar - regrettably a repeating offense. Other than that, most discipline is triggered by me rather than her, largely as a mechanism to assuage my feelings of guilt over something and move past whatever it was. As I’ve said before, we do have some long-term agreed offenses and penalties for some things such as speeding tickets and late fees, but again, since these are fixed, there’s no threat involved. TG
I can understand why some might be turned off about the "maternal" thing. Though, like I said, it definitely was part of the DWC orientation, which obviously resonated with many people. Let's face it, there are lots of people who would find adult DD creepy, absurd, etc., with or without a maternal element. I'm not even particularly consistent in my own reactions, as I have a gut-level negative reaction to F/m dynamics that have a "daddy" component. I'm not sure that you're right that for those who do have a thing for the "maternal" archetype grew up with a spanking mother. I'm sure some did, but there are others like me for whom maternal discipline was largely absent, and that absence seems to be one of the drivers for the DD attraction. (My mother did spank, but it was very rare, and later in my childhood she became very erratic and pretty much gave up on anything like rules, consequences, etc. She certainly did not present a model of parental discipline that leaves me with any nostalgia for that parenting.) And, I think most people who have talked about this here have said there is a very clear distinction between connecting DD to *a* mother figure, on the one hand, and connecting it to "their* mother, on the other.
Delete"Other than that, most discipline is triggered by me rather than her, largely as a mechanism to assuage my feelings of guilt over something and move past whatever it was." I have some of that, too, though I also tend to shy away from actually asking directly when the prospect becomes "real."
Hi Dan,
DeleteI too grew up with a lack of boundaries. Mine were not due to my mom not parenting well, but rather because of circumstances. My father left when I was young and lived in a different state, and my mom worked evening shifts and a second job, so most days I would see her for a few minutes if at all, since I was sleeping when she came home from work, and I was gone to school before she woke up.
Anyway, for me "maternal" means pretty much exactly what you said; when I think of my wife in her disciplinarian role, I clearly see her, not my mom. Rather, it is a style of discipline. She is punishing me much in the way a mom might punish an errant child. Ironically, I think that for me, the "maternal" feel has a lot more with how I feel than how she acts, in that it is not so much that she acts like a angry mom, but I feel like a naughty little boy.
-ZM
" I clearly see her, not my mom. Rather, it is a style of discipline."
DeleteTHIS!
Alan
"[T]he "maternal" feel has a lot more with how I feel than how she acts, in that it is not so much that she acts like a angry mom, but I feel like a naughty little boy."
DeleteI love that way of putting it for me. For me though, it does depend more than a little on how she sees her role and how that leads her to act. As she has leaned into the maternal role lately, I find myself feeling more under her control, more subject to her authority, with her a bit higher in the hierarchy. I don't think I would feel at all like that if, for example, he orientation was more Femdom or more aggressively sexual or kinky.
Here it is: There was nothing Oedipal about my wife acting maternally.
DeleteWhen a man wants his submissive girlfriend to call him "Daddy" and she enjoys doing so, that is a bit weird -- and possibly Oedipal. I would never have called me wife "Mommy," and she would have freaked if I had.
Acting as a mother is not being my mother. I had no problem having sex with my wife, who acted maternal at times.
KOJ
I have to disagree with TG. I grew up with a spanking Mother. She had zero tolerance for disrespect, zero tolerance for not adhering to school rules, failing to do my homework and I would never think to address an adult by their first name. I still address my relatives as Aunt and Uncle and my friends parents as Mr and Mrs. The foundation my Mother laid made me the man I am today. I will say that it’s quite obvious that my “fetish for DD” came from the overwhelming number of spankings I observed, received, and numerous stories from friends. I don’t call my wife Mommy when she is punishing me and I certainly don’t think that age play is appropriate. I’m actually turned off by the 24/7 FLR on ST. I personally don’t believe they even have an FLR or DD, it’s all for money and show. He is in pajamas, addresses his wife as Mommy and has a massive erection before, during, and after a spanking. How is that punishment? I not only do not have an erection before, but if I even had a tinge of one, it’s gone the minute the severe strapping starts. I answer my wife with yes mam or yes honey. I hate to break it to all, but DD has strong maternal overtones. Think about the steps, scolding, maybe corner time, chores, ect. How could it not be. Sorry for the soapbox Dan.
DeleteT
I’ve been reliably told by more than on strict woman that the whole maternal aspect pretty much does come from the man. As was said above, how can it not be? Words mean different things to different people. If I fell and got hurt in a public setting and a sweet woman comes to my aid, do I feel it’s maternal? A little. Do I think she does? No. She’s just doing what she’s wired to do. I’m the one feeling babied or pampered (not literally). Is that bad? No.
DeleteHi Dan,
Delete"As she has leaned into the maternal role lately, I find myself feeling more under her control, more subject to her authority, with her a bit higher in the hierarchy. I don't think I would feel at all like that if, for example, he orientation was more Femdom or more aggressively sexual or kinky." - I agree. In fact, I would say in more kinky type play, the power is mostly held by the "bottom." They are the one with the safewords they can use at anytime and setting the limits by which the "top" is constrained. Just to be clear, I also agree that how she feels about her role and her resulting actions make a huge difference, so I wasn't trying to take away from that, but rather just say that in the end, to me if it feels maternal, it is (at least from my perspective), regardless of how she feels at the time. But of course, the more she embraces that aspect of DD, the easier it is for me to be put into that state of mind.
And T, you said: "I don’t call my wife Mommy when she is punishing me and I certainly don’t think that age play is appropriate." - I generally agree, at least within the context of DD (real punishment for real offenses). The exception to this that I can see is that if she should wish to, and if both parties are Ok with it on some level, she could use infantilization as a punishment, in which case you actually could literally end up babied or pampered (tying back into what Jon said)! Also, I agree about ST. For the most part (leaving room for a few exceptions) what is there is meant to make money and/or to entertain.
"I hate to break it to all, but DD has strong maternal overtones. Think about the steps, scolding, maybe corner time, chores, ect. How could it not be." - I tend to agree, again understanding that no two DD relationships are the same. But overall, the whole thing feels maternal, and the punishments used are generally those historically used most extensively for children of different ages, again leaving room for military, prison, and other discipline.
-ZM
I admit that I never said to my wife, "I appreciate how maternal you are when you are punishing me." She likely would not have liked that. She was clearly acting maternally in my eyes -- she punished me almost exactly as my mother did. But she wouldn't have called it maternal nor wished for the similarities to be pointed out. So I guess I agree that it was in my head but not hers, as was posited above. But I also think that an objective third party observing our DD and the comfort that followed would have said, "That's maternal."
DeleteKOJ
My wife and I use more of an adult judicial corporal punishment vibe, for pretty much the reason given above: the maternal vibe didn't suit us. Does anyone else use this vibe?
DeleteJ
J, I am curious what you mean by “an adult judicial corporal punishment vibe”. In Canada, where I live, adult corporal punishment was on the books in the judicial system until the 1960’s. The recipient of punishment was immobilized with restraints around the ankles and waist in an upright position, and he was punished on the bare buttocks with a heavy leather strap. It would be administered by a prison guard. I think only men received corporal punishment. There would be witnesses present, as well as a doctor because the beating was severe enough that medical attention might be needed. It was eventually banned as “cruel and unusual punishment.” I believe judicial corporal punishment is used in Singapore to this day, and it is similar, except that a cane is used instead of a strap. I’m curious what you and your wife do to create a judicial corporal punishment vibe. In my mind, the difference between a maternal vibe and a judicial vibe would be that a maternal disciplinarian is strict but loving, whereas judicial discipline is cold, clinical, and highly formal. Restraints are needed because it is harsh and non consensual. I am decidedly not into a judicial vibe because I would find it lacking in an important element: a sense of intimate connection to a caring disciplinarian.
DeleteGH
I agree with T, ZM, KOJ, and others that for many of us spanked husbands, punishment by our wives has inescapable maternal overtones. That is largely because of the inevitable structural similarities between a wife spanking a husband and a parent spanking a child. For the same reason, M/F and M/M spankings often have a “paternal vibe” for the spankee, as I have been told. However, I suspect Jon is probably right that wives giving spankings may not feel the maternal vibe. In fact, I would theorize that bottoms in any adult/adult spanking scenario are more likely than tops to feel a maternal or paternal vibe because receiving a spanking is a more primal experience than giving one. Receiving a spanking projects us back to childhood; giving a spanking doesn’t. How could it? As children we were only ever on the receiving end. Thus, when my wife spanks me, I feel that I am being stripped of my status as an adult. And because I can’t see myself being spanked, my physical appearance doesn’t remind me of my age, so I actually feel like a boy. On the other hand, the psychological circumstances are different for the spanker. When I spank a woman (as I have done), it is possible that the woman feels similarly infantilized, so the spanking may have had a “daddy” vibe for her. But I don’t feel that daddy vibe, even if I consciously push that button for her. That’s because if I have a woman over my knee with her panties down, the view makes it impossible to forget that she is a grown woman and not a naughty little girl. I imagine it is the same way for a woman spanking a grown man. The man may feel like a naughty boy, but the woman sees him as a physical adult, and as her sex partner if they are a couple.
DeleteGH
Hi GH,
Delete"Receiving a spanking projects us back to childhood; giving a spanking doesn’t. How could it? As children we were only ever on the receiving end. Thus, when my wife spanks me, I feel that I am being stripped of my status as an adult. And because I can’t see myself being spanked, my physical appearance doesn’t remind me of my age, so I actually feel like a boy." - excellent points. I think you are spot on with this.
-ZM
Today my wife finally spanked me again. I should be happy, but instead I feel disillusioned. If you have read my posts here, you will know that my wife and I had a FLR with DD for years. It has been on pause for months because of my health issues, but I have recovered enough to start craving it again. My wife was recently away for a couple of weeks, and during that time we exchanged texts related to FLR. She said she was done being permissive and warned if the house wasn’t spotless when she got back, I would get spanked. That excited me, but I cleaned the house well. She has been home for over 2 weeks now, and there is a definite FLR vibe. She has been bossy. She has given me spanking warnings, which I have heeded. I have done a lot of housework and all the cooking because I want her to enjoy the benefits of FLR.
ReplyDeleteAbout a week ago, she announced I would be spanked because I had not started winterizing the garden while she was away. I agreed that I deserved to be spanked. But the spanking never came. Yesterday, I wrote a journal entry reminding her of the pending spanking. I told her I felt embarrassed about reminding her, but I explained that it was a big thing for me because I have been craving that feeling of intimacy I get from DD. I put the journal on her pillow, as I do whenever there is a new entry. Well, today she finally spanked me. It was almost like an afterthought. We had just had tea. She was getting ready to take the dog for a walk, then she said, “Oh, before I go, you can go to the bedroom and take your pants down.” I did as I was told, and a few minutes later she came in and gave me a dose of the strap. She struck me pretty hard about 10 times, pausing for several seconds after each blow to allow me to recover. She stopped when the dog came between us.
I was relieved when she stopped, but happy that DD was back. Then she ruined the mood by saying, “There you’ve been spanked. Are you satisfied now?” I didn’t know what to say. She added, “It’s not as though spanking you makes any difference in your behaviour.” That hurt me. It was unfair, considering how hard I have been trying to please her. Then to add insult to injury she said, “I don’t believe what you said in your journal that you feel ashamed of your kink. If you felt ashamed, you wouldn’t write about it.” I feel disillusioned tonight. She has implied that our years of FLR and DD have all been a sham, play acted for my benefit, with no benefit to her. I don’t think I want DD anymore if she really believes that. Maybe I have to go back to my pre-FLR fantasy world and give up on real life DD.
GH
That's rough. Sounds like it's time for a real heart-to-heart talk.
DeleteGH,
DeleteThat certainly would be disappointing. I think that very thing might be one of the main reasons that I shy away from anything involving self-reporting, shared journals, or anything like that. In the end, I think female led DD or FLR simply is at its best when my wife is the one doing all the leading, with no real prompts from me. Of course, we pay a price of a lot less consistency this way, but at least this way she doesn't feel pressured, and when she does take the initiative, it feels more authentic to me. We do talk about DD and kinky things often, like she will ask what is happening on this blog and so on, but I don't really ask her for spankings or remind her if she says she is going to spank me and then forgets or decides not to, so all of our talk is more general in nature.
"I feel disillusioned tonight. She has implied that our years of FLR and DD have all been a sham, play acted for my benefit, with no benefit to her." - I can see why you would feel disillusioned by all this. But one thing to keep in mind is that any shared activity can have different meaning and feeling for the people involved. I too feel like much of what my wife and I do with DD feels more like a game to her, but she uses it for real things (and she does get benefit from it), so overall it feels pretty real to me. As long as it feels authentic to me, I really don't care if to her it is just a big game.
Anyway, don't lose hope!
-ZM
"Of course, we pay a price of a lot less consistency this way, but at least this way she doesn't feel pressured, and when she does take the initiative, it feels more authentic to me."
DeleteThat makes perfect sense. I can see how a wife might react very negatively to feeling pressured or pestered.
Thanks for the help, Dan. If Anonymous didn’t find me the let me know.
DeleteGH - All the other advice is much nicer than mine, so you might want to follow them. Having said that, my solution would be to revert to pre-agreement on DD so perhaps she’ll remember why DD was a good thing and not take it for granted.
DeleteIt doesn’t change your behavior anyway? Would that be because you’re good at being good so she has to invent reasons to spank you? Perhaps some embarrassing face-to-face does need to happen because just giving it up passively is a path to being silently miserable and perhaps ruining the marriage.
GH,
DeleteI feel for you. As someone who has experienced the ups and downs of DD, I’ve never written a journal to my wife about the way I feel or my experiences. It takes a lot of “balls” to do that. I can’t see how DD or FLR has been a sham to your relationship or there has been no benefit to it for her? You’ve been pretty open about how it has improved your relationship. I know DD has improved mine. Maybe you can gently remind her of the way you behaved prior to FLR and DD and how it has improved your behavior. Since we have started DD, I’ve been much more patient, kind, and helpful to my wife. She has noticed a major change. I hope maybe it’s just the stress of life or maybe women just being women. Best of luck to you. A side note, this blog has given me the courage to tell my wife how I feel. It’s given me a voice to address my indiscretions and given her power to help me change them for the better. Since the “thrashing’s” have increased, I’ve failed to make the same mistakes over and over and have simplified other interest.
T
Thanks to everyone who offered advice. Dan, I think you are right that a real heart to heart is going to be necessary. KOJ, your point about not jumping to conclusions and acting like I am upset is probably wise. ZM and Dan, it is possible, I suppose, that reminding my wife that she had said she was going to spank me in my journal came across to her as pestering or pressuring her. ZM, it’s good that your wife spanks you without your having to remind her. But what would you do if she just stopped spanking you? T, I think you are right that I need to find a way to “gently” remind my wife how things were before FLR. We started FLR so long ago that she may not remember how things used to be. Jon, your idea that I should play hardball and “revert to pre-agreement on DD” has occurred to me. But we have had a FLR for so long that the imperative to be “respectful and obedient” to my wife is second nature now, and I would find it difficult to revert. I have said that after my cancer diagnosis and treatment, we fell out of FLR and DD. But that is not completely true, I now realize. In the heyday of our FLR, I did almost all the housework and cooking. Our division of labour was “unfair”, but my wife knew from my journals that the unfairness turned me on, so why wouldn’t she go for it? After I got sick, she became less demanding and started to do a lot of the cooking and cleaning again. And she stopped spanking me. That felt to me like we no longer had a FLR. But as I think about it, that wasn’t entirely true. She continued to wear the pants and I continued to be submissive to her in subtle ways. In the last couple of weeks we have moved back more fully towards FLR, with her becoming bossy again and me doing most of the housework and all of the cooking. She appears to have accepted my enthusiastic demonstration of submissiveness as something that is her due. Her behaviour has been selfish in that respect, but I don’t mind. I want her to be selfish. Her selfishness turns me on. But emotionally and sexually, I need spanking discipline to be an element of FLR. She might not see it as essential because she doesn’t really need to spank me into a submissive state: she has me there without spanking me. In that sense, I guess I can understand why she would say “spanking doesn’t make any difference”. You are right, Jon, that I am “good” without being spanked, so it is understandable that she would see spanking as nothing more than a sexual favour she is doing for me. Years ago I was active at a FLR website called “She Makes the Rules.” Some of the women there promoted the idea of “kink free FLR”. They argued that men who say they want to submit to women almost always have a sexual craving to be spanked. In a “real” FLR, they said, the man should serve the woman and do as he’s told without expecting the woman to satisfy his spanking kink. I argued that the idea of “kink free FLR”, keeping the man in a perpetual state of unsatisfied sexual craving, is unfair and cruel. Paradoxically, I am almost masochistic enough to be attracted to that level of psychological cruelty. My wife isn’t that cruel. That’s why she spanked me after reading my journal entry, and I suppose that’s why she commented, somewhat impatiently, that it was for my benefit rather than hers. But I don’t want spanking to be a just a sexual favour. I want to feel that it is real discipline. I guess I can understand why that psychological paradox might be difficult for my wife to grasp. In any case, thank you, Dan, for providing a forum to discuss stuff like this, and thanks to everyone who offered advice. You have helped to clarify my thoughts in preparation for the heart to heart talk I need to have with my wife.
DeleteGH
You are really upset about this, so I suggest that you express your frustration in a way that irritates her and earns you a spanking. Then she will see the benefit of including DD in your FLR. If you express your frustration in totally acceptable ways, then she sees no reason to spank. I am not suggesting you fake anything. I am suggesting you let your emotions go -- stop burying them. You'll feel better for releasing them without filters; she will likely take offense and punish you; and voila, problem solved!
DeleteKOJ
KOJ, this is a weird coincidence, but before reading your latest piece of advice about intentionally provoking my wife to earn a spanking, I did that accidentally. She told me a couple of weeks ago to make appointments for us to get the seasonal flu vaccination plus our Covid booster. I signed us up at our local pharmacy, but we are still on a wait list there. My wife told me she heard another pharmacy was faster, so I should sign us up there. I just wanted to wait for our local pharmacy, but she told me to do as instructed. Because I was feeling disillusioned about FLR for the reasons I explained here, but not yet to her, I became argumentative and even raised my voice. I told her she had a computer, so she could bloody well do it herself if she felt so strongly. She got angry and ordered me again to do as I was told. I grudgingly went online and made appointments for both of us at a different pharmacy. When I had finished, she ordered me to go to the bedroom and take my pants down. I thought about refusing because I was still feeling angry, but I obeyed, partly out of curiosity. Once again she chose the strap to punish me. But this time she swung the strap harder and faster, and it was clear that she was doing it not for my sexual satisfaction, but because she was angry. Afterwards, I told her I was sorry. To be honest, I sincerely felt sorry because I think she was right about signing up at a different pharmacy to get our vaccinations faster, since the numbers for flu and Covid are both spiking already. She still has no idea that I was hurt by the things she said after the previous spanking because I am still thinking about how to tell her that. Maybe this latest exercise of authority shows that there is no problem, so I don’t need to say anything. But I think we still need to have that heart to heart talk because I am feeling confused by her inconsistency.
DeleteGH
I suggest you talk to her and not jump to conclusions. Tell her you are confused by some of the things she said. Ask her to please explain. Don't act upset or you may affect her answers.
ReplyDeleteKOJ
I’m sorry I seem to have opened a bit of a can of worms here, it’s pretty obvious I’m in the minority, but for me (and my wife) there are zero maternal overtones in DD or FLR and I think any hint of it would be a huge turn-off for both of us.
ReplyDeleteI do somewhat sympathize with GH. There have been times when my wife has seen DD as just one more chore she has to fit into a busy life. As I said previously, there are occasions when she instigates a punishment, and there was an incident a couple of years ago when she was angry enough to deliver probably the hardest punishment she had ever done (with a promise that if I ever repeated, that would just be the warm-up.) More often than not though, it’s driven by my need. A couple of months ago there was a very rare occasion where I had inadvertently broken one of our fixed rules that has been in place for twenty years plus. I told her about it and made it clear what I expected, but after a couple of weeks there was still no sign she was going to follow through. In the end I wrote her a note which reviewed the details of our DD agreement as I saw it, made clear the punishment that I was expecting at the time and laid out a roadmap for how I saw our DD going forward. I had been nervously awaiting this punishment for weeks and was at a point where I felt we both either had to commit to our DD or agree to leave it behind. My preference was clear, but I felt I’d rather leave it behind than live with the uncertainty. Fortunately, she received it well, I got the - very hard to take - punishment I was due and we are on the same page again. There has been nothing since then that I felt deserved real discipline, so we’ll see what happens at some point in the future. When we started this, we both agreed we had big benefits from this aspect of our relationship - as I’ve written in the past. I suspect that’s true for most - if not all - of us on this blog. I guess sometimes there needs to be a reset to make sure we and our partners are on the same page. I wish GH the best of luck achieving this result. TG
I haven't experienced it a lot, but there have been times when she's seemingly forgotten about a punishment and I've gotten resentful about that, even though I should have been happy to avoid it. I think it's just our particular DD spin on the common feeling that you're putting more into a relationship than your partner or that your partner isn't paying as much attention to you as you think you deserve. Usually, they're just busy, distracted, etc., but it's sometimes easy to attribute the problem to lack of caring. It's toxic, of course, because neediness is never a good look.
DeleteNo, it isn't, but I run on the idea that if I am feeling that way and I don't have a desire at some level to avoid it, my wife hasn't done it hard enough or for long enough.
DeleteJ
The issue where I crossed the line most frequently was drinking. I am not nor never was a drunk, but I liked to have a few at a party or out with friends, and I sometimes got a bit loud, obnoxious and opinionated, especially about politics. My wife hated being embarrassed, and this behavior of mine embarrassed her. But prior to DD, I didn't much care.
ReplyDeleteShortly after we started DD, my wife told me she was instituting a 2-drink rule. I argued that this was not the correct approach: I should be punished for being obnoxious, not for how much I drank. But she wanted to prevent the obnoxiousness and felt restricting my drinking was the way to do so. I spent a long session over her lap before I reluctantly agreed.
Thus I was resentful of the rule and at the beginning often snuck a third or fourth drink. I was more careful about my obnoxious behavior but it did still occur -- and that led to double punishments when I admitted under questioning that I had exceeded my drink limit. In fact on one occasion I got three separate spankings, one right after the other: first for being obnoxious, second for exceeding the drink limit, and third for being sneaky
and dishonest when exceeding the limit. This was the worst spanking I had ever received -- I estimate in the neighborhood of 600 swats. I was black and blue for two weeks. But I admit that I realized I needed to listen to her more.
What totally stopped my intentional rule-breaking was when she got more public with her threats after we both retired. Before, she would whisper a threat at a party. But she started saying them out loud in front of everybody: "That better not be your third drink if you know what's good for you." "You better tone down that obnoxiousness or there will be consequences." And the one I hated the most: "You do know I brought my hairbrush, don't you?" I was so embarrassed -- what else could that possibly mean other than that she spanked me with a hairbrush and was threatening to right there and then?
It was the public embarrassment-- more than a 600-swat session -- that finally brought me into line. Not just with my drinking, either. I finally realized that it wasn't worth it to buck her rules. I had ceded this authority to her, and it was time to become the gentleman she wanted me to be. The next decade was the best of our lives!
KOJ
Until the paragraph beginning "What totally stopped . . ." I could have written exactly this comment about the negotiation process Anne and I have had about drinking for, hell, I don't know, 30 years . ..
DeleteI have had a thought going through my head ever since the "benefits" topic, and the recent discussion around TG's disillusionment and everything surrounding that also ties in very well. My question is, what if you could behave perfectly without DD? Would your marriage benefit from that as much as it does from your current DD relationship?
ReplyDeleteI am kind of thinking that if we husbands were to have perfect behavior and attitudes all the time (with no threat of punishment - so in other words without DD) then perhaps our wives would actually hate it, since it would just seem so submissive and make us seem like spineless simps. At the same time, we might also soon resent it due to the unfairness of it. Perhaps it would eventually destroy the whole relationship.
I am not sure where I am going with this, but I think it is something to the effect that the presence of exercised authority - whether frequently or infrequently - might be the primary benefit of a DD, both for the wife and for the husband. At least in my relationship, my wife gets a certain thrill from having authority and getting to show her power to help bring her "bad boy" in line. And I benefit from the feeling that there are imposed boundaries and also from the thrill I get from her exercising her authority.
Anyway, just throwing the incomplete thought out there for other's thoughts...
-ZM
My wife told me on many occasions that if I would have just listened to her in the first place, she would never have had to take up the paddle. I admitted that I did not respect her authority until she started backing it up corporally.
DeleteSome men respond to sexual power -- "I have the pussy so I make the rules." I would have been angered if she had withheld sex to control me. But I certainly did respond to "I have the paddle so I make the rules."
KOJ
For us, I think this is really dead-on accurate. When it sometimes seems like Anne wants a "soft boy," I remind her that she was initially attracted to a guy wearing a leather jacket, driving a jeep, who worked in a bar . . . She wasn't attracted to me because I was a nice, already domesticated guy. I think DD helps her have the guy she wanted all along, while sanding off some of his rough edges. And, yes, I get a more powerful version of the woman I met and married. If all of a sudden I became an angel and she never again needed to wield the paddle, yeah, I think that would probably be a much more boring relationship than we have now.
DeleteWell stated Dan. DD makes our relationship much more interesting, gives us intimacy that most couples would long to have, and allows your wife the satisfaction of "training" you as you occasionally act like the rebel she fell in love with, even as it allows you to have the strong female authority figure you need. DD does improve behavior, of course, but that is more of a side benefit. DD is its own reward.
Delete-ZM
Dan,
DeleteI agree with you as well. My wife definitely doesn’t want a “soft boy”. She was initially attracted to me because of my strong sense of personality and perseverance in life. Of course, it helped I was handsome lol! Like your wife, she has dusted off the rough edges as well. If you see us walk down the street, you would tell by the way I carry myself, that we have a typical alpha relationship. My wife lets me take the lead. When we started our DD, she explained this is where her voice comes into play. My attitude and mouth often got me into trouble. I know it needed to be corrected and she has put a dent in that with good old fashioned thrashings. I definitely think before I speak to her when upset .
T
As far as I am concerned, there is no way I will ever be perfect. However, in the hypothetical situation where I am, I would still wish to receive F/M spankings, because they are an extremely intimate act that play an important role in bringing us together.
DeleteJ
J,
DeleteI like the way you put that. For
me, there will always be room
for improvement. I love the way DD brings us closer together as a couple. There is a very acute level of intimacy that none of our friends have in their relationship. I’ve been told most are a bit envious of it.
T
GH - I wish you luck and hope you don't back down from this important situation!
ReplyDeleteKOJ - Glad to hear a like-minded person. I suppose if I wasn't a person to take risk then why would by butt be in jeopardy at all? In for a penny in for a pounding?
All - Here's something heretical but if there are rules that if we break we are punished then what happens if our wife or significant other breaks the same rule? As best as I've been able, I've tried to find someone who agrees it should be equal. If I am to be punished painfully for lying and maybe have a mouth-washing first then what if she is caught lying to me? Shouldn't she face the same consequences? I know, I know, this really doesn't work for those who kind of enjoy the unfairness but I found it breeds resentment for me.
The truth of the matter is most women just don't misbehave as much as we do. Ever compared how often you were punished as a child to your wife? It just isn't fair, or I've always just been with terribly good girls, which is entirely possible. So, then it does end up with me getting into more trouble than her but without the resentment about goose and gander.
From what I've gleaned talking to women I've known, been with, or have online acquaintance, they get more pleasure from the empowerment of holding the reins, paddle, or hairbrush than from any maternal feelings. They enjoy the power of telling the man "go make me a sandwich" as the saying goes.
I think the simple answer is, it depends. Some could pull off the whole "Spencer spanking plan" dynamic where either spouse can be disciplinarian or disciplined, depending on who is offending. I personally don't have any desire for that, and my wife is *very* clear that she has zero desire to be disciplined.
DeleteThis came up recently when we were both pretty irritated with each other at the end of a long-ish trip. I told her later that, once things had settled, she probably should have punished me for the attitude. She asked whether I thought it was OK for her to punish when she was mad at me even when I too was mad at her. The answer is yes, I do think that our dynamic is one-way, so it's OK if the rules don't apply equally or in the same way.
A few years ago, a friend who is the "top" in a F/m dynamic said something to the effect of, "Face it, most relationships are inherently unequal, and a truly equal relationship just wouldn't work very well." I did have a work relationship in which there was no hierarchy, and when we had a disagreement on a major issue, it became a truly unworkable case of "irresistible force meets immovable object." It really was a problem not having some kind of hierarchy with someone having real power to have the final decision.
I think men and women responding differently to stimuli is a good reason for the difference. Women tend to respond more to emotional things, so maybe some degree of shame might be most fitting, but men tend to respond more to physical things, hence why F/M DD spanking is fitting.
DeleteJ
Dan: “I think the simple answer is, it depends. Some could pull off the whole "Spencer spanking plan" dynamic where either spouse can be disciplinarian or disciplined, depending on who is offending. I personally don't have any desire for that, and my wife is *very* clear that she has zero desire to be disciplined.”
DeleteDan, like your wife, mine has no desire to be disciplined. For one thing, she doesn’t have a spanking kink like me, nor is she submissive. That’s fine with me. I like having a 24/7 FLR that is inherently “unfair”. I also agree with you that there are practical advantages to inequality in a relationship. Before FLR we often had that “irresistible force meets immovable object” dynamic. Permanent D/s works better.
I sometimes think about how things would be if my wife had exactly the same kinks as me. In that case, I imagine we would use something like the Spencer Plan so we could both experience real discipline for real purposes when we behaved badly as defined by clear rules. I imagine we would also get into some intense erotic role playing, switching between F/M and M/F scenarios.
GH
I have to say that my wife very rarely broke any of our agreements or family "rules." But when she did, the consequences were the same as in a non-DD relationship, since our DD by mutual consent only went one direction.
DeleteI guess in a femdom relationship the wife might get away with no consequences, but we were nor that nor FLR.
For instance, she once got a traffic ticket. She paid it out of her discretionary funds -- money she set aside for clothes, makeup, etc. It didn't come out of our "autopay" account that we used for all of our standard monthly bills. I also had discretionary funds. So she suffered the logical and natural consequences of speeding.
If I had gotten the ticket I would have paid it out of my discretionary funds -- and also gotten spanked because my driving was an issue over which I agreed that she had authority.
You could say that's unfair but not to me. The fine was enough to modify her behavior. For me, the spanking was more of a deterrent than the money. And I had agreed that if I was speeding and got caught -- by the police or by her -- that I would be spanked. She never agreed to receive any additional consequences for the ticket so she didn't get any. Fair all around.
KOJ
GH - I've written quite a few stories using the erotica ideas and the switch play. Thanks for mentioning it.
DeleteKOJ - Makes perfect sense since you agreed ahead of time.
On a separate topic, something I find very frustrating is the horrid double-standard that if a woman tells her man in public "you better behave or else" or even worse, as was said earlier, "I remembered to bring my hairbrush so you better be good" there are smiles, giggles, and even some encouragement from other women and a few men who are too afraid of their wives to say differently.
ReplyDeleteYet in the same place or situation if the roles were reversed? "Honey, you better behave if you know what's good for you" or "Do I need to take off my belt (male equivalent of hairbrush)?" We say that out loud and oh my! We become the scourge of society. We are toxic males!
Following that line of reasoning, if the woman were to follow through in a public setting and spank her man, who would stop her? Is anyone going to cry foul or call the police? I don't think so. Here again, there might be cheers, there would definitely be laughter, and worse cellphone proof it happened posted somewhere no doubt.
If a man spanked his woman in public? Police, News, Jail, etc. Sigh.
It's definitely a "double standard," but is it an entirely horrible one? I don't know. I admit to having a squeamish reaction to M/f disciplinary spankings, undoubtedly based on some things in my own past. But, I do think that there is more of a *possibility* of abuse in a M/f dynamic than in the vast majority of F/m dynamics, simply because of the disparity in physical power. I don't think it necessarily would be horrible to be concerned if you happened to overhear a threatened spanking an a M/f context.
DeleteNow, I say that recognizing that I *do* have this gut-level, negative reaction to M/f punishment. But, because I have had the chance to get to be friends with one female blogger in that dynamic, I now recognize that she's into DD and power exchange for basically the same reasons I am. She's a super competent, high performing person in her daily life, so I'm sure part of her gravitates toward giving up control, just like I do.
Thanks for your comments and replies. I think we might be friends with the same female blogger. For her it is indeed and exchange, however; she spends less time on the power side than the other side. She freely refers to herself as a spanked wife. I spend more time on the power side than the other myself. For me, I couldn't have things just go one way if I was on the lower or receiving end only. I'm not strong enough or brave enough. I admire those, such as yourself and others here who can be comfortable staying under the hand or paddle of their wives, etc.
DeleteI also appreciate you allowing me to discourse with you and the rest of the fellows here. It helps with my writing and understanding of my characters. i just wish there were more female bloggers willing to discuss things as openly as the one I know so far.
Still routing for your, GH!
Oops...rooting for you, GH!
DeleteJon, there is definitely a double standard, which must be annoying to couples who are into consensual M/F spanking, but I don’t think there’s much that can be done to eliminate the double standard for the reasons Dan said. F/M seems more obviously consensual.
DeleteI am thoroughly submissive myself, but some years ago I met and spanked a woman with whom I had written a collaborative M/F spanking story online. She couldn’t persuade her husband to spank her, and she wanted to experience the thing she fantasized about, so when she found out I was going to be in her city, she asked if I would spank her. I really enjoyed spanking her because she wanted it so much, and I got vicarious pleasure from enabling her to experience that. Sometimes I wish I was a woman because women have such sexy bottoms, and I would love to feel as sexy as a pretty woman looks when she is OTK with her panties down. I also think it would feel wonderfully submissive to be taken in hand by someone bigger and stronger than me. Sometimes I wish my wife and I could swap bodies, so I could experience that.
Thanks for your kind wishes, Jon.
GH
Jon, in a way, I almost think it is good that such a double standard exists. On account of the strength difference, it is fairly easy for a man to abuse the power of such a setup. Also, I think a man should be able to endure a DD F/M spanking, given that men are built for robustness. However, I don't want my wife to feel inhibited when she gives me a spanking. Another possible reason for this situation is that it is said that women are the gatekeepers: the man has to earn access. Since the burden is on him to clear things up again when there has been upset, an easy and effective way of accomplishing this (e.g. spanking) is desired. F/M DD spankings are mutually beneficial: she gets a release from whatever is bothering her and I get largely unobstructed access. This dynamic just wouldn't be the same with M/F DD spankings!
DeleteJ
Jon, my guess is it's not the same blogger. The one I was referencing hasn't updated her blog in a very long time, and she doesn't switch at all - her dynamic is always M/f.
DeleteFunny, I have no interest at all from n M/F spanking, it not only leaves me cold but I often have a negative reaction to it. It feels too close to abuse given the usual strength disparity. I appreciate that there are many women who are into to it and I respect their views but I am definitely squeamish about it. TB
Delete
DeleteTB, I understand your squeamishness about M/F spanking. But I got to know many women who were into it years ago when I participated in spanko websites where people into M/F, F/F, and F/M intermingled. (M/F was most numerous, followed by F/F, then the small number of us into F/M. There was no M/M there because gay men had their own websites I think). Women outnumbered men, but the vast majority of women had no interest in F/M because most women spankos were bottoms, though a few could switch. I developed intimate friendships with a number of women into M/F spanking and wrote collaborative M/F stories with them. I also spanked a couple in real life. Sadly, lots of married women have frustrated cravings to be spanked because their husbands won’t do it. I suppose the husbands are squeamish about it because they are culturally conditioned to feel that spanking their wives would make them misogynist brutes. Though I am naturally oriented towards F/M spanking, as well as FLR, I also find M/F spanking erotic because I empathize with women who have a craving to be spanked, and it pleases me to be able to “serve” them as a top. I hope that makes sense.
GH
When we got together, I made it clear that I needed to be spanked. It took awhile for me to realize that what I really needed was not only consistent spankings, but also DD. She has realized the benifit for her with F/M spanking and DD, so it's an important and ongoing part of our lives. While she has no desire to be punished or held accountable for anything, she does enjoy role play, including being spanked. I spank her about once a month. She sometimes she asks for it, abut she also enjoys it when I surprise her and just put her over my knee. I only use my hand, but often spank pretty hard for at least 5 minutes, sometimes more. It's instructive for me to be in that role, as the spanker is really providing an experience, and giving a satisfying spanking is an art and a gift, as well as a responsibility. If she is in a deep sub space, I need to be aware that she may not be able to communicate with me in a normal way. I enjoy spanking her and seeing her completely vulnerable, but it also means I have to pay close attention, and not get carried away just because I am turned on. The one getting the spanking has no such responsibility, and can just enjoy (or endure) the experience. Sometimes, like now, she is not in the mood to spank, and I never push her, even though I feel the need. I'll be over her knee again soon enough.
DeleteThat sounds like a great relationship, Norton.
DeleteJon wrote: “I also appreciate you allowing me to discourse with you and the rest of the fellows here. It helps with my writing and understanding of my characters. i just wish there were more female bloggers willing to discuss things as openly as the one I know so far.”
DeleteJon, I think you are quite a bit younger than I am. You would have loved the online spanking scene of the 90’s, with story boards and chat rooms where men and women mingled to share spanking stories and fantasies and to discuss their kinks. I had friendships with a number of women. I am still friends with a woman who back then worked as a professional disciplinarian for both men and women but was most turned on by M/F spanking herself. I learned a lot from her. Back then I was turned on by the fantasy of F/M domestic discipline, but I didn’t think it could be a real 24/7 thing. I like the way Dan’s blog focuses on the real thing in a practical way, but I do miss the fanciful online spanking scene that flourished in the early days of the Internet. All the women I knew back then were most turned on by M/F spanking, so I always take people who represent themselves as dominant women online with a grain of salt.
GH
GH - I was online in the 90s and even the BBS days. I agree that Dan's blog does a great job of focus on the real life things. A grain of salt is always a good thing: lotta catfish in these waters. As for being fanciful, I think the spanking relationship is what you make it. D/s relationships are a different animal than DD or FLR/FLM. The motivations and reasons are different such as only being for punishments. I always preferred the Sub just as for the "therapeutic" spanking, instead of just acting out. Another big difference is that a real Dominant personality, male or female, gets just nearly as much pleasure and empowerment from the obedience of the Submissive as they do from any joy in sexual parts or S/M parts. By the way, did you ever find my blog? Always fun to chat with you, GH.
DeleteT - I'm glad to hear it worked out well for you. Your wife was kind in just squeezing your cheeks as a reminder. It was subtle and not embarrassing but quite effective. Eye contact and facial cues are the ways most women communicate with each other since most men aren't aware enough to notice. Hands on, excuse the pun, would work better with us. Your example is a good one to show a DD/FLM relationship working as it should!
I've heard it said women can communicate on five different levels: what they said, what they didn't say, what their face says, what their body says, and subtle wording hints. They can have whole conversations that most men aren't even aware are going on. I've seen it and I've practiced learning it. It's a fascinating world within our world.
Jon
Jon, that’s cool that you were online in the 90’s. Who knows, maybe we crossed paths back then. Yes, I found your blog. It’s very well done/visually appealing. I look forward to delving more deeply into it. I will comment there.
DeleteGH
ZM, it’s not that I was disillusioned with DD, but I was concerned that she might be. It looks as if we are back in synch - we’ll see how it goes. Your topic is interesting and thought provoking and my response is that a lack of DD probably wouldn’t have much on impact my actual behavior. I try to be considerate - to people in general, not just my wife, and I certainly try not to upset her. I’ve said in the past that I keep my driving speed close to the limit more out of concern for her punishment than the ticket, but in truth, this is probably more to do with the fact that she would be upset if i I got a ticket. So the real effect of DD is not on my behavior but on how I feel afterwards on those rare occasions seen I do screw up or upset her in some way. I’ve said this before, but maybe not quite in this context. DD deals with my feelings of guilt, her anger and lets us move on. We never have those awful palls of mood hanging over us for hours or days afterwards - and as such it is hugely beneficial for the marriage. Over twenty years and It’s still wonderful, and I’m quite sure that DD is one of the contributors to that. So no, without it, it wouldn’t impact my behavior but it would have a very real impact overall. ZM, I’m not sure I’ve answered your question exactly, maybe gone off at a bit of a tangent, but it’s a great area of topics for a future discussion. Jon, great theory. I originally thought we might have gone down that road since we were into spanking as a fun / sexual activity in both directions when we first met. When we started DD over twenty years ago she made it clear that it had to be one way only, and I have always been ok with that
ReplyDeleteTG
Hello TG,
DeleteYour answer pretty well describes how I feel as well. It is not that I cannot behave well or treat my wife respectfully without DD, after all, I did for about 25 years in my previous marriage. Having said that, because of the way I am wired, I respond much better to my wife threatening to spank me than I would to the silent treatment or things like that. All wives punish their husbands, we DD husbands are just fortunate enough that our wives use something that happens to not only change our behavior, but also brings us much closer to them. And yes, the closure DD brings is hugely better than the never-ending accumulation of aggravation or bad feelings that happens in some if not most non-DD marriages.
-ZM
My wife and I did all kinds of passive-aggressive things to each other before she took up the paddle. I hated the pain but I much preferred two minutes of severe pain to two days of the silent treatment. Beat my ass, teach me what I did wrong, clear the air, and act lovingly again. It saved my marriage!
DeleteKOJ
There's a lot of thinking about GH's situation. Mine seems to be a little similar in that I was recently spanked, but only because she thought I needed it rather than that she thought I'd done anything wrong. I had almost got to the point where I just instantly stopped doing all of the things that she had trained me under threat of punishment, just to see what would happen.
ReplyDeleteFor me, similar to GH, I do them because her effort to train me has made me recognise that they are important to her even if they are not obvious to me. Once understood, my subconscious will not let me fail on those things.
I'm sure that some of the issue arises because DD is just not front of mind for her, unlike me.
Mark, you make a great point. DD is not on the forefront of our female wives mind. I did come home from work last night exhausted. My wife, from upstairs, “how was your day”, me, exhausting. Her response, good, “come up here”. I walked upstairs and she said, “now about that reset”. Apparently, she was feeling much better. She told me to take my pants down and bend over the bed. She whipped my bottom fiercely. I had a hard time taking that thrashing and I was sweating when she finished. She said that I deserved it for the attitude; and I would be punished again on Friday, prior to a gathering we are attending. I tend to lose control when around this group. She said this is not going to happen and I’m gonna whip that bottom good prior to leaving. If I see things are getting out of control, I’m gonna walk behind you and squeeze your sore cheeks.
DeleteT
Mark wrote:” For me, similar to GH, I do them because her effort to train me has made me recognise that they are important to her even if they are not obvious to me. Once understood, my subconscious will not let me fail on those things.
DeleteI'm sure that some of the issue arises because DD is just not front of mind for her, unlike me.”
That is well explained, Mark. I think you are right.
GH
This week's topic sort of feeds into something my wife and I discussed when I first raised the topic of spanking before we got married. She said she didn't want F/M DD spanking to be just a kinky thing that didn't bring about any behaviour modification. She said that although she was entirely fine with it having a kink aspect, she wanted me to act on feedback (i.e. spankings) to keep the system functional. I therefore feel a responsibility to respond, because I don't want to go to the traditional pouting that goes on indefinitely that many wives do. I haven't been perfect in acting on feedback either, but I hope she believes I have made a very reasonable effort.
ReplyDeleteJ
I appreciate and respect everyone's experiences and opinions. This is, after all, a blog dedicated to the F/M DD dynamic so it isn't unexpected at all to find some who are left cold or bothered by the M/F DD dynamic.
ReplyDeleteI do want to say that I find it strange that someone who believes a man does and have the control to not use his strength against his wife when she disciplines him then turns around and doesn't believe another man could have control to discipline a wife carefully, judiciously, and in a way agreed upon through the same amount of discussion that goes into the F/M agreement.
What does the equality or disparity of strength have to do with M/F being abusive or unfair unless this feeling is based on the belief men cannot be trusted to be fair and reasonable?
I don't wish to cause argument at all. Each to their own and each knows what is best for themselves, but as men who follow a F/M DD situation don't wish to be mislabeled as soft boys or less flattering terms neither should the other side be mislabeled either. I don't think it fair to think only men have rough edges that need to be polished off or sanded.
Dan - Sorry, I guessed incorrectly.
TG - Thanks for the nice comment on my theory and I'm glad you're okay with how it is going for you now.
J - As I said above, to each their own. I'm glad it works for you. If I came home after an exhausting day of work to honestly answer that I was exhausted but then be thrashed for poor attitude, I'd cry foul but that's me.
Thanks to everyone for their viewpoints and understanding. :)
Jon,
DeleteI’m all for equality in a relationship. I must say that I am not turned off my M/F discipline. In the correct context,
It would be beneficial to some women. I personally would not want to thrash my wife. I enjoy patting her on the bottom and giving her loving smacks. I think that some women out there have the same need for correction as us men do. In a caring, loving, and consensual environment, I do not see much of a difference in a DD relationship either way. As for my wife addressing me when I was exhausted, I was the one who requested this type of relationship. It would be inconsiderate and disrespectful for me to have gone upstairs and not listened to my wife, when she told me to bend over. Was I in the mood for a reset? Absolutely not, but if I was only spanked when I wanted to be corrected, it wouldn’t be beneficial to me for changing my behaviors. My wife told me she was going to have a reset a few days earlier and became ill.
I’m actually proud of her for taking the initiative to correct me. I know if I declined to bend over exhausted, then she would not of been as forthcoming with her efforts moving forward.
Like so many have said before, each and every relationship is unique and could change at the blink of an eye.
T
I don't think anyone said all men can't be trusted to be fair or non-abusive. Clearly, many are in a M/f dynamic that works quite well for both parties. The point that people made was that physical abuse, or simply non-consent, is far less likely to be a realistic possibility in a F/m dynamic because men are, in fact, on average much stronger and can resist in a way that is less certain for women. Couple that with the fact that thousands of years of culture, religion, etc. create issues around consent in the M/f context that don't have a corollary in the F/m context. Like I said, I've come to realize that my squeamishness about M/f discipline doesn't reflect the reality of may, and perhaps most, of them. That doesn't mean, however, that it isn't rooted in realistic concerns about engrained M/f power dynamics and physical differences.
DeleteJon, it's hard to explain, but it just isn't the same. As a husband, I see my role as being to protect my wife from pain, not to inflict it on her. Also, as a man, I should be able to be a big man and take a large amount of pain without complaining. This means I do it for her out of love, whether it be for DD purposes or even if there is no defined reason, e.g. regarding "therapeutic spankings" (https://disciplinarywivesclub.wordpress.com/2014/03/22/a-husbands-essay/). Making love afterwards is good, knowing that everything bothering her has been dealt with: it just would not feel the same if I had inflicted pain on her instead. If a couple want to do things the other way round as consenting adults in the privacy of their room, that is up to them, but I couldn't foresee myself coming to find it bearable the other way around!
DeleteJ
J - Thanks for the link to the essay. It was a very educational read, and I agree that it is up to the consenting adults. If there is a clear understanding of the situations and agreements on what happens, even with the therapeutic spankings, then that's great. I'm glad it works so well for you. Thanks for the explanation.
DeleteJon
I never had any desire to spank my wife. I always say myself as protector and provider, even when I was a pretty submissive husband getting spanked a lot. As protector, I could never hurt her.
DeleteKOJ
J,
DeleteWho is running this wordpress blog, which obviously post-dates Aunt Kay? I did not know it existed. It's not the site that stole her blog, nor is it the site that replaced her blog. Is it you?
KOJ
.
Hi KOJ:
DeleteI'm not sure who created that Wordpress Blog / Partial-Archive of Aunt Kay's original DWC website (DisciplinaryWivesClub.com).
However, I do know that the Wordpress Blog was created in the period (~1.4 yrs) between Aunt Kay's original URL "expiring" (lapse in renewal payment and subsequent URL purchase by an uncooperative third-party; 2013:Q3), and Aunt Kay relaunching her website at the new URL (AuntKaysDWC.com; 2014:Q4).
During that intermediate period, apparently some "fan" decided to move his (her?) favorite content parts of Aunt Kay's original content from the Internet Archive to that Wordpress Blog. As far as I can discern, the ONLY activity of the blog's administrator was during that intermediate time, when the Wordpress site was the ONLY regular site to obtain some of her original content.
(The most accurate and complete source of Aunt Kay's original content remain the original and replacement websites stored in the Internet Archive:
;
.
Both Dan and Aunt Kay's husband (Jerry/Tommy) have stated on Dan's blog that, once Aunt Kay established her replacement website, both she and her husband repeatedly tried to contact the Wordpress owner/admin and have the copyrighted material "taken-down." My understanding is that contact/response was never achieved.
Since that time, there have continued to be "commentators" who have added editorial content to those original postings. Some of that new editorial content is interesting, and some is simply SPAM.
-- Donn
Oops, sorry, I forgot that "Blogger" does not tolerate standard angled-brackets around website addresses!
DeleteHere, again, are the Internet Archives of Aunt Kay's original and replacement websites:
(1) web.archive.org/web/2013/DisciplinaryWivesClub.com
(2) web.archive.org/web/2023/AuntKaysDWC.com/
-- Donn
I've always assumed the Wordpress site was put up by some fan who was afraid the content might disappear after the original website was hijacked and then later went almost entirely inactive. I used to avoid pointing anyone to it since it was not approved by Kay or Jerry, but after the replacement site also went down several months ago, I have pointed people to that site every once in a while. It seems to have virtually all the Q&A, Tips & Methods, and story countent, with a few exceptions.
DeleteYes, Dan, but the Internet Archive versions of Aunt Kay's websites have so much more, including all of the original formatting and graphics -- the "look and feeling" that Kay and Jerry intended to convey.
DeleteAny word on getting the second version of Aunt Kay's website up and working? Frankly, from my examination, it appears to be some type of problem with how the Javascript "style sheets" are being interpreted by the current web-server software -- not with the basic coding or interpretation at the web-browser end.
-- Donn
Thanks to you both for further clarification.
ReplyDeleteSome of my comments and replies are disappearing again. Probably for the best. I talk too much.
ReplyDeleteGH
Dan,
ReplyDeleteHere's a possible topic:
What were arguments in your marriage like before DD? How did issues get settled, if at all. How did you "punish" each other when you were upset? Did DD eliminate those other forms of punishment? What do you still argue about, even with DD?
KOJ
Hi KOJ,
DeleteI'm not sure whether this will become a topic on the blog or not (depending on what Dan thinks), since it is really mostly about NOT practicing DD, rather than the practice of DD, but I know my answers to your questions are simple.
1) We had DD in our marriage since the beginning. My previous marriage did not have DD, and issues never really got settled, but instead just basically resulted in accumulated resentment. But, I don't know if that would have been different had we had DD or not, nor do I know how my current marriage would be without DD, since there are so many other factors at play.
2) I "punished" my first wife by being cold and withdrawn towards her when I was upset with her. She basically did the same for me.
3) I can't answer, since my first marriage never had DD, and my second marriage never didn't have DD.
4) My wife and I don't really argue. If we do disagree, it is mostly because of either something involving our kids (we are a mixed family) or money. But seldom do disagreements turn into what I would consider an argument.
-ZM
Go for it. I'm going to be mostly out of action through this coming week
DeleteI will not respond to KOJ’s question because it is too late in the current thread to sustain the dialog it deserves, and I hope Dan will adopt it in a future topic. One way to talk about DD and deepen our understanding might be to think and remember what it was like –AND what we were like-- before DD.
DeleteAlan
Alan, yes it would be a good topic to discuss how things were before and after DD. Many, if not all, of the responses would be positive results you could share with your wife or SO about how well DD works for others. It might be a good reminder about how valuable DD is for improving behavior and communication, equalizing the power imbalance in a marriage, and reducing stress and arguing.
DeleteNot to mention how it can spice things up in the bedroom.
Hi Norton,
DeleteI like the way you expanded the topic a bit, from just how issues were (or weren't) resolved before DD, to how DD improved behavior, communication, power imbalance, and consequently helped reduce stress and arguing (and of course intimacy in and out of the bedroom). I think overall that broadened scope makes the topic more interesting, since I am pretty sure the answers would be pretty much the same for everyone with regard to the passive aggressive behaviors that are so often present in non-DD marriages.
-ZM
My wife actually followed through with her thrashing prior to leaving for a gathering. I was out doing some yard work. As I came in, she said, let’s get this over with. I immediately felt the knot in my stomach. I didn’t think she would remember or actually follow through. As I took my pants and underwear down and bent over, She explained to me that I need to watch my mouth and ensure I am attentive to her. I lost count at 100 and she kept going. I was thoroughly thrashed and promised to behave. I had a very sore bottom at the party and as promised, she grabbed and squeezed it a few times. I did watch what I say and made sure to mind my “p”s and “q”s. She said if I didn’t, she would beat my bottom but good today. I think that maintenance thrashing actually made me toe the line last night.
ReplyDeleteT
Spanking as deterrent works very well for me Just example from this weekend. My mother-in-law and brotber-in-law visited us. During a converstation I have critised my wife about some relatively minor issue.
ReplyDeleteFew minutes later she asked me.to go with her to the basement and help her with bringing something. It occured to be just a pretext. She spanked me hard with the leather lash from her purse and promised that each critics will end up with even more harsh punishment. I was very happy, positive and not critisising hubby for the rest of the evening!
I haven't been spanked while my inlaws were still visiting, but there have been a few occasions when I was disciplined immediately after they left. Saying something that embarrasses my wife in the presence of her family is about as bad as it gets for me.
DeleteKevin
I got spanked several times when we had overnight visitors because of my poor host behavior, but none of them could hear it late at night on a different floor at the opposite end of the house (much like our kids).
DeleteKOJ
Yes. Spankings hurt and It works. As I’ve said here in the past , Dev hates bad grammar. I used to say “ ain’t “ all the time. Not the worlds biggest crime but she wouldn’t tolerate it. Multiple paddlings later and I don’t say that word any longer ( if she’s around ). When I’m angry I’ve said f———g w—-e. I’ve been paddled twice hard for that and now very cautious of what I might say. JR
ReplyDeleteI could see where being paddled for bad language - especially when angry - could be quite effective. For me, probably more than the language itself it would be more about not overreacting and controlling myself better. Thankfully, my wife has not went there, at least yet.
Delete-ZM
Dan, I was curious about something that could lead to a topic for discussion. This blog is dedicated to the concept that spanking can change behavior, and most of us have experienced that it works. My question is, how is it for most guys if they do change their behavior enough that they are rarely spanked for bad behavior any more? That is the situation I am in most of the time, but I still want and need real spankings. We have several check ins every week, which are usually followed by a spanking. It seems that this routine seems to really help me stay focused and more relaxed. Sometimes it can be hard to take in the moment, before reaching the point of surrender, but I always feel better after getting a good spanking. She has the authority to spank me whenever she wants, and I occasionally still need to be punished, but that doesn't happen often now. Of course, I am very lucky to have found a woman who seems to enjoy exercising her power over me in this way. Before we met, I was unaware such women existed.
ReplyDeleteNorton, I had an idea for a topic that is somewhat related to yours: how can a guy sell his wife on the concept of maintenance spankings. My wife spanks me only when my behaviour or my attitude becomes unacceptable to her. In other words, it is purely disciplinary. That is theoretically what I want: discipline. But I also have a craving for more regular spankings. To that end I have raised the topic of maintenance spankings with my wife, but she doesn’t see the point in spanking me “for no reason.” I have never pushed the idea very hard because I feel as though I would be undermining the idea that spanking is truly disciplinary and not merely a sexual service. It seems like a logical contradiction, but I really would like to be spanked more regularly without resorting to fake provocations.
DeleteGH
What happens when you don't get spanked regularly? Nothing? Or do you get cranky, crabby, out of sorts? My wife spanked me when my attitude was off. She didn't believe in maintenance, but it didn't take much of a "bad attitude" for my pants to come down. If you have no noticeable change in behavior, then why should she spank you? Perfect gentlemen don't get punished!
DeleteKOJ
GH, I would agree that most of us want discipline, and it is always more satisfying for both the man and woman if the spanking is given for punishment. Maintenance spanking can reduce the need for disciplinary ones, but only if they are hard enough and long enough be a sufficent reminder of what a real spanking feels like. And she has to be sure the disciplinary spanking is going to be hard enough that you really want to avoid getting one. It took me years to accept that what I really wanted and needed was for her to exercise her authority. Ongoing maintenance spankings keep me in a more humble, more respectful state of mind. Once I accepted that, it wasn't that hard to convince her that she would have a better behaved partner by frequently giving me tangible reminders of what a real punishment spanking feels like, and how to avoid getting one. Ultimately, us guys get spanked by our women because we are loved, and the women we are with know we need them. Not only does maintenance spanking provide a consistent reminder, but they also guarantee an intimate time for a couple. The male is extremely vulnerable, and his wife gets real insight about what he is thinking. Maybe you could suggest a one month trial with your wife, and see how it works out. KOJ, what happens if I don't get spanked is I get anxious and moody, and I tend to over react to things. These days, I try to be a perfect gentlemen, and she spanks me twice a week to make sure I continue trying to be one.
DeleteGH, one more thing occurred to me. If you are like most of us who contribute to this blog, you need to be spanked. If you don't get spanked often enough, you will be frustrated and probably do something unconsciously that results in you getting what you need. The problem with that is, it will make her angry, and you don't really want that. Ideally, a couple should feel more loving towards each other after a spanking. We certainly do. Of course, your wife would be much more likely to give you maintenance spankings if she enjoyed doing so, or at least if she enjoyed some aspect of it. She may like having more power over you, getting you to listen to her, or see you doing more housework. The benifits for her are many.
DeleteKOJ, your wife appears to have been more of a perfectionist than mine.
ReplyDeleteGH
My wife started doing weekly maintenance spankings about 2 and a half months ago. This started as a result of a well earned punishment spanking. Part of my punishment was to write out an apology as well as a course of action to prevent future occurrences. I suggested weekly maintenance spankings for a month, not really expecting her to agree, but surprisingly she did. Of course I expected the weekly maintenance to be more of the funishment variety, but I could not have been more wrong. She decided that because the weekly maintenance was working so well in many areas, that they would continue until further notice. She did mention the other day that she would consider scheduling every two weeks after the first of the year, as long as my behavior was acceptable through the holidays.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, that is how we got started with the maintenance deal and I think that we were both surprised by the mutual benefits. I stay more attentive, watch my tongue and temper, which makes her happy. And I haven't earned a true punishment spanking since we started which makes me happy.
Sorry, above comment was mine.
ReplyDeleteLDD