“Being powerful is like being a lady. If
you have to tell people you are, you aren't.”
― Margaret Thatcher
Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples
Club. Our weekly gathering of men and
women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships. I hope you had a good week. Ours was rough. Not on the personal behavior front. While hardly a perfect week, I did do better
than in recent weeks, and I obeyed a direct command even on something I could
have done that might have gone undetected.
So, again, while not perfect, I did make some progress in getting my act
together. But, a rough week nonetheless.
We’ve had some losses among our extended “family,” and had another this
week. I know that is cryptic, but I’m
not quite ready to reveal personal details that could allow someone to figure
out who I am. Now, that sort of assumes
that someone who knows me in “real life” reads this blog, but you never know. .
. .
That note about anonymity and
secrecy leads us to this week’s topic. Last week, Danielle observed, "I’ve
been inching closer and closer to some such public display of my authority over
my husband. But that would probably be too embarrassing for him in real life.
Also, there would be an ethical problem of involving other people in your kink,
right?" We also had a couple of side discussions about openly displaying
utensils and beauty items in ways that might suggest their dual purpose as disciplinary
devices.
What level of display of
authority are you comfortable with? Some
take great pains to make sure no one knows about their DD or FLR activities. Others are open. Some don’t openly reveal the nature of their
relationship but take risks that someone could figure it out. Where do you fall on that spectrum, and what
form do your displays of authority take?
We are one of those “in the
middle” couples. Her public displays of
authority are fairly understated, most of the time. She almost always pays the bill when we go to
restaurants. I clear her plate after
dinner at home, which does not go unnoticed by our now older kids. In public, she has occasionally given me something
that sounds like an order, such as telling me to go to the bar and have her
drink refilled. At an office Christmas
party a few years ago, I came to suspect one of my younger female colleagues
and her husband might be in an FLR, as I observed her repeatedly direct him, politely
but authoritatively, to go to the bar and get her another drink. Finally, as I’ve noted before, I also wear a pendent
that those in BDSM relationships might identify as the sign of a submissive
male. It doesn’t quite fit our
situation, but it is the closest established symbol to our dynamic.
Within the family, on
occasion she has inched forward to more prominent displays of authority. As I said, we have established a ritual in
which I take her plate away after dinner, or she leaves the table and leaves it
there for me to clean up. And, the kids
have definitely noticed it and commented about it to her. They also definitely get something has
changed in the last few years and that she makes more decisions. As far as I
know, they don't know about the corporal punishment aspect of the relationship,
though there is no way to know for sure. Kids are more observant than we sometimes like
to believe. Moreover, I will not be
surprised if, at some point, my wife tells one or more of the kids. And, on a
couple of occasions she has made a cryptic or flippant reference to spanking me,
in front of our extended family. One Christmas morning, we had extended family
over and I made some semi-snotty comment in response to something she asked me
to do. She replied, "Well, you can do it or I can just spank you."
Some family members were definitely within earshot. If they overheard, I
*think* they would have thought she was joking, but you never know. . . . On the other hand, as far as I know she has never openly revealed our FLR or DD relationship to anyone, and she's never done anything beyond dropping hints in public.
How about you? For the wives, how comfortable are you in
displaying your authority over him or hinting at your DD activities? Give us some
examples of times you’ve done so. If you
are not open about it now, do you have any desire to be more so in the
future? For the men, has your wife let
others know about her authority? Does
she do things in public that make her authority known or might let others
figure it out? Do you wish your wife was
more, or less, open about whatever level of authority she has over you?
Have a great week.
L's late wife (N) made a point of "making her authority known" -not only to her friends, but also, it seems, to casual acquaintances- and of occasionally "demonstrating" it by spanking him bare-bottomed under their eyes (as I witnessed many times). When L and I married later on, it was understood that he would be subjected to the same regime, and he has been for several years - whether in the presence of "common friends", newer witnesses (such as my sister) or - within earshot! - "strangers" (e.g. when I spank or whip him in a hotel room)
ReplyDeleteJ.
Nearly all our friends and family are aware of her leadership role. I do nothing to have anyone think differently. I freely tell folks that she makes the decisions in the relationship. I have no problem with the way things are and not ashamed of my role. I too wear a pendant which designates me as a collared, submissive male. Lifestyle folks can figure it out, but vanillas have no clue. As far as the physical discipline, some folks are aware of it but most do not. It would not be difficult to figure it out as at times she will say things like 'you'll pay for that' or 'you know what will happen'. To the point of others finding out, there have been many times that spankings have been overheard. Once, at the home of a friend, I was taken to an adjacent room and spanked. Everyone could hear the unmistakable sound of leather on skin. Very embarrassing and everyone there then knew I get spanked for discipline.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know, no one has ever figured out anything based on my pendant. But, I did get really nervous when I was out with some colleagues and one of the younger guys who works for me noticed the leather choker it is on and asked to see the pendant. I had no idea whether anyone at the table would know what it represents.
DeleteAnd if anyone did figure out the meaning???? Sure some canned comments or jokes would result. My response would be to roll with the humor directed at me, but if one of my friends really wanted to know and understand more, I would tell them. The DD lifestyle is an alternative lifestyle for sure, but just a different lifestyle. I would do my best to describe the way we live and why we want to and enjoy it. I am a collared, spanked male submissive and not ashamed of it.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI think I've told me story here before but the short version is we discussed a FLR when we were dating. My wife's mother and her sister were against her getting married again because of her ex husband was a cheater, abuser and an alcoholic. The night I proposed to her was the first night she attached a chastity cage to me and from that night on I would be submissive to her. So the next day we went to tell her mother and sister the news of our engagement and of course they were not happy until my then fiance told them of our relationship and how it will work, then made me drop my pants and show them the cage. Since then she has spanked me in front of her mother, sister and a couple of her friends. She has threatened a spanking a few times in public and has actually taken me to a family restroom and spank me at the mall. I have been spanked while we have had a house full of guests but I was taken to the bedroom. I don't know if anyone was able to hear it but it's possible. My wife will order me around in public and in front of family and friends. There is probably more people than I know of that know of our relationship because I'm sure those that know have told other people.
ReplyDeleteDan, I understand your plight. Like you, right from the start, she asserted her authority. I admit, a FLR is what I wanted and asked for. The day I moved in, after the last of my belongs were brought into her house, she said take off all your clothes, you are getting spanked right now to start things off. I have been spanked in front of most of her family members and her Sister-in-law has stripped and spanked many times.
DeleteThis is Elizabeth. I have already related the meeting that Frank and I had with my sister and her husband, but that is the most public incident that we have ever had. Frank was very resistant to having that meeting, and even after a hard session with the paddle he did not want to do it. Even though he understood the reasons for it, and agreed that he had been very distant with my sister and that was not appropriate, he did not want to meet.
ReplyDeleteIt took several conversations for him to agree, and I invoked my female authority more about this than about anything heretofore. I eventually used a technique that I had read about, in which manipulated his manhood manually until he was in a state of extreme arousal, and then began discussing what I needed him to do before he could get release. We even discussed during that moment that this was an extreme sexual manipulation, and he agreed that it was okay for me to do that. So I did. And that is how he agreed to the meeting. The resulting explosion was rather volcanic!
I do not ever want to humiliate or emasculate my husband, even when we are alone, let alone in public. So our incidents of public display of DD are always going to be few and far between. I know that is quite different than most of the FLR couples on here. But we are at the far DD end of the spectrum.
Elizabeth
This is Frank. In addition to the conversation about DD that we had with Elizabeth's sister, my wife has in my opinion significantly changed the way she publicly displays her DD authority. One example is the new paddle hanging in the kitchen cupboard, where it definitely will be seen by friends and family, some of whom will figure it is not just for cutting cheese. Though they may think it is the wife who is getting spanked, which is probably more common in our neck of the woods.
DeleteAnother example is her restriction of my drinking. Her telling me that the drink in my hand is my last has definitely been noticed, and some of my guy friends have remarked on how she has gotten louder and more bossy. I just shrug off these comments. My friends definitely would not understand me getting paddled!
She has become much more assertive in public, including in an authoritative way with me. When we are shopping and she has made a purchase, she either will tell me to get the bags or she will just walk off, leaving me to grab them and hurry after. I am sure the sales clerks notice, but this is rather common behavior nowadays.
One thing that did surprise me recently is she came to visit me at work, which she rarely does. Of course everyone greeted her and said how nice she looks (as she has not been there since losing so much weight). She looked and acted very regal. When we were alone in my office I asked why she had come to visit. She said, "I think it's a good thing for a wife to occasionally show up unexpectedly at her husband's place of work." I asked if she was concerned about anything. She smiled and said "No, I know you are a good boy now. I'm just leaving my mark." Then she walked out!
I know this is pretty subtle DD authority for most of the couples on here, but it's a big deal to us. And I imagine it is noticeable to some, although all I got at the office was "It was so nice your wife came by" and "She really looks great!"
Frank
While I woul
One thing Frank neglected to mention is that there are several very pretty young women working in his office. I am not at all concerned about Frank's behavior, but he is a very attractive older man who is quite successful. So those "girls" needed to see who wears his ring and that her man is off limits!
DeleteElizabeth
Hi Frank,
DeleteI think shopping brings out the FLR in almost every couple. For a few hours a week, he follows her around, carrying the bags or pushing the cart, while she makes the decisions and tells him exactly where to go and what to do.
Our FLR is fairly private, but we do have one shopping 'ritual' we enjoy - there is a nearby clothing store with a particular style of pantyhose my wife likes (called 'Take Control', in fact!). We will go in and I will make the purchase of a few of them, while she looks on. Perhaps the sales clerks notice it as unusual - or maybe it's something they see all the time!
Either way, when we get home I can present her with my purchase, encouraging her to continue to 'Take Control!'
CrimsonKing
Underwear manufacturers must be kinky as a group: Take Control, Spanx, No Nonsense ...
DeleteFrank
Elizabeth, this is Danielle. I have to say I am a bit jealous of the way you and Frank have been able to share your experience of DD with your sister and brother-in-law. Actually, I often feel jealous of women who HAVE sisters because there seems to be such closeness between sisters that I wish I had one. I have three sisters-in-law: Wayne’s sister, Wayne’s brother’s wife, and my brother’s wife. The one I feel closest to is Wayne’s sister. Maybe that’s why I have a bit of an urge to reveal to her the full nature of my authority over her brother.
DeleteI’ve been thinking since getting involved here about why I have this urge to reveal the nature of our FLR to someone, and most especially to Wayne’s sister. Part of it is erotic, I think. The exercise of power is erotic, and the eroticism is enhanced if other people know about it. But part is just a desire to talk about it with someone I know well. I think an additional consideration is that it would feel affirming not to hide anything. Assuming that there is nothing shameful about the FLR and DD lifestyle, why should I need to be coy about it?
I regret that I have missed opportunities to open up about this to Wayne’s sister. Like other women, when she first had a glimpse of Wayne’s domestic service she made the standard joke that I have my husband “well trained.” I have always passed light heartedly over that “joke” by saying something like, “I know, he’s a sweetheart, isn’t he?” I figure that response glosses over the D/s dynamic at play behind the scenes, and just makes it look like Wayne is a really nice guy. I regret not saying something to pull back the curtain, such as, “It’s amazing how much can be achieved with nothing more than a hairbrush.” I figure that if I said that with a smile, my sister-in-law could either take it as a joke, or she could ask me to elaborate, which I would gladly do. I know that would be embarrassing for Wayne, but I confess that embarrassing him that way would turn me on. Doesn’t it turn you on a bit for your sister and your brother-in-law to know that you spank Frank?
Elizabeth, I don’t think you are that far away from FLR on the spectrum between DD and FLR. Maybe the two things are overlapping circles rather than end points on a spectrum? I think it was amazing how you “persuaded” Frank to submit to your leadership on the issue of the meeting with your sister. To me, that looked like FLR! And, as I’ve commented before, you know how to use your power as disciplinarian to get the kinds of benefits women get from FLR’s.
Thanks for the support, Danielle. No, it doesn't turn me on that my sister and her husband know that I paddle Frank. The public nature of my authority is not erotic for me, especially because I know it embarrasses my husband.
DeleteI have had opportunities to share our DD with others. MANY girlfriends have remarked on how polite and helpful my husband is, and some have asked me how I have done that. I smile a bit mysteriously, and if they press me I say that it is mostly Frank - which is true since he initiated all of this. I just am not comfortable revealing that he is incentivized with the paddle. Though I do respond in the affirmative if they ask whether things are just as good in the bedroom as in the rest of our marriage.
When they say how jealous they are, I laugh and then share that with Frank while in his arms. It's our private secret!
Elizabeth
Danielle, you said that you wonder why you have this urge to reveal the nature of your FLR to someone. I can't really explain the "why," but I do get the urge. Hell, to a big extent, I started this blog because of that urge.
DeleteThere are really only two people who I have talked to openly about this, and the experience was different and not really what I had expected. I have told a female friend who is very open-minded, but not into spanking or FLR. She is curious about how it works and asks questions, but talking about it to someone who isn't in a DD relationship or really interested in being in one doesn't really satisfy that urge I have. So, I wonder whether talking to Wayne's sister would really satisfy yours? The other person I have shared it with is a woman in an FLR marriage. The live conversations with her have not been explicit, but there definitely is more of an "edge" than when talking to my other friend, probably to some extent because I know she experiences this lifestyle from the other end of the paddle but also perhaps because I do not know her as well as my other friend, so it is a little more embarrassing because of the lack of close familiarity and shared history.
Elizabeth and Frank: It's interesting that Elizabeth seems to see her display of authority as limited, while Frank's description depicts her as much more openly authoritative.
DeleteFrank, love the underwear manufacturers comment. LMAO!
Great observation, Dan! I guess it depends which side of the paddle you're on!
DeleteElizabeth
Danielle here:
ReplyDeleteNow that I’m really thinking about it, I realize that it is probably pretty obvious to family and friends that I “wear the pants” in my marriage. As I’ve said previously, I’ve become bossy with Wayne since embracing FLR, and I don’t think I really hide that in the presence of other people, though I do tone it down a bit. When Wayne and I are alone, I often word instructions as commands, whereas I tend to word my commands as requests in the presence of other people, but Wayne knows my requests are commands, and he responds accordingly.
Wayne does practically all the cooking and cleaning now, and that doesn’t change when we have guests. If we have people over for dinner, he is the one wearing an apron in the kitchen while I sip wine and chat with guests. People may see that as evidence that I wear the pants in our home, or they may simply think that Wayne enjoys looking after things in the kitchen. There is certainly an element of that because Wayne does feel pride when people praise his culinary skills.
My sons and my daughter-in-law probably realize that our FLR lifestyle goes beyond Wayne’s ambitions to be an amateur chef because they are sometimes here for several days at a time. My sons must see that domestic arrangements have changed in our house. They would remember a time when I did the greater part of the housework and when their father actually used to argue with me when I expected him to do more. But they could see the fact that their father is retired now and I still work part time as the explanation for their father acting like a 1950’s housewife to.
The last time my daughter-in-law was here, I pushed things a little bit. Wayne was washing the breakfast dishes and my daughter-in-law was feeding the baby at the kitchen table. I noticed that my boots were dirty, and I was annoyed because keeping my boots and shoes clean is one of Wayne’s important responsibilities. I went into the kitchen and told Wayne in a rather bitchy tone that my boots were dirty and needed to be cleaned and polished before we went out. Wayne said he would do it right after finishing the dishes, but he kept his back to my daughter-in-law and me. I suspect he was hiding a blush. My daughter-in-law looked surprised for a moment, but then we both smiled and left it at that.
Okay, I suspect my son and daughter-in-law may know the score because I know that my son discovered his father’s stash of F/M spanking magazines when he was about 14, before we even had a FLR. We have never talked about it, but our son must know Wayne has a spanking kink, and he has probably put 2 and 2 together. And I suppose my daughter-in-law’s smile indicated that she knows too.
But nobody (except my best friend) knows for sure the full extent of my disciplinary authority over Wayne. Mind you, his buddies must think he is “pussy whipped”, because I require Wayne to call for permission if he wants to stay out longer than foreseen to go for a drink after a golf game. And I must confess, it turns me on to deny him permission sometimes, just to show him and his buddies that getting my permission is more than a polite formality.
My wife is similar to you. There are a few people that know completely all about our relationship and then there are those who know she wears the pants in the family. When we have guests over she will tell me after we eat to clean up the kitchen while she goes and visits with the guests. When I finish cleaning up she will have me going and getting our guests drinks and then have me serve dessert.
DeleteIf I say or do anything she doesn't like she will tell our guests to excuse us while we have a discussion then takes me to the bedroom where I will be spanked unless if the guests who were there knew about our relationship then she will spank me in front of them.
Sometimes if a friend would call and I was about to be disciplined for something she will tell the friend we're having a discussion and I can't come to the phone right now.
In public she just does little things in front of people like ordering me to do something but she doesn't do it in a nasty way. A few times in front of some people in the mall she told me if I don't knock it off right now I will get a spanking when we get home.
I don't mind that people know she's the boss. Personally it makes me feel more loved by her.
Frank and I are somewhat different from most on here in that he "wears the pants" in the family - even though he takes them down when I tell him to! Is it hard for me to accept his leadership when I am paddling his bare behind on a weekly basis? No, not if you ascribe to the idea of the servant-leader.
DeleteHe leads our family with a service orientation that includes ceding authority over the management of the home to me. And of course the "management" of his misbehavior. But he is still my wonderful leader in many ways that I love!
Elizabeth
Danielle: It is hard to imagine your daughter-in-law would not get the hint from observing you tell him to clean your boots. Nothing subtle about that!
DeleteDan: Would the guests who don't know the full story be able to hear the spankings in your bedroom?
Elizabeth: I think a lot of leadership involves a complex hierarchy. At work, there is one person I technically report into in one capacity, but I also kind of outrank him in another capacity.
Elizabeth-
DeleteI TOTALLY get how your relationship works because it is very similar to ours. And like you, I always thought it had to be a pretty rare dynamic that not many people would get because it is innately pretty conflicted. I am and always have been the "alpha hubby" , had always been the HoH, big (stressful) career, provider and when it came to it was the final word on a big decision...although we have a great working relationship so it's been rare in our 29 years its ever come to that. Then i came to recognize in reality wife was always pretty much in charge of her domaine like on the house hold front and kids so there were areas I deferred to her judgement. Now w DD as an element of our relationship I'm still "me"...which was important to her. She didn't want to lose the husband she married. But there are expanded areas of our relationship that now are even more clearly defined as HER domaine......so now i completely defer to her, openly there. And while we ideally want to be able to address things that merit it in the moment....we still have kids at home so typically can't. That said, i'll be interested how our lives change in a couple years (2-3) when we are soon to be alone and things can be said and addressed spontaneously. And to add to the layers of complexity....when it comes to times of DD I want her to be and she has assumed a more FLR posture and those periods can be for an hour when she's annoyed about something or protracted into her being in a FLR attitude for several days based on what I've done. Then when it has passed we're back to "us"...until the next time.
Darren,
DeleteIt's nice to hear from other DD couples where the husband holds some leadership even though he is subject to corporal punishment.
I know Frank and I have drifted toward FLR in some respects but would not consider ourselves an FLR couple. FLR and DD probably are overlapping circles for us, as Danielle says, but for us there is a third circle - the traditional man-led marriage (MLM?)
But honestly, we don't feel conflicted about it. We both know our roles, and it all works.
I agree that things will get more interesting and active once kids are out of the house. Sure did for us. Frank certainly wears a lot less clothes, and we make a lot more noise!
Elizabeth
Well there's a great topic........how day to day life around the house changed once you became empty nesters. there have to be some great stories around how things got escalated around the house. there have to have been plenty of husbands that got caught off guard by instructions or "incidents" that spontaneously occurred the first few times.
DeleteMrs GL is a locally well known public figure, so I tend to be in the background in public spaces. Cheers Good Life Mickey.
ReplyDeleteDan
ReplyDeleteAs I write this, I am sitting on a very bruised bottom. Anna told me on Saturday she wanted me to answer your question of the week. After dinner while the boys were out at school for a rehearsal for a school talent show, Anna told me to go to the kitchen and drop trou. I did as she ordered but wasn't sure what I had done wrong.
The first mention of your name and I recalled her order to answer your query.
Knowing there was no point in apologizing I bent over the sink and waited. Last nite she used a small cutting board I had made for my Mom when I was a scout. Mom had given it to her. I have never been sure why.
Mom had said it was so cute she thought Anna might like it.
Fifty rather harsh swats, Anna left the room ordering me to do the dishes and then write this.
As Anna may have related on a cruise last year, Anna spanked me for over drinking. We were traveling with our friends. The next morning he took me aside to tell me he heard my cries of Stop ! When I told Anna she felt she needed to speak to the wife. Since then twice when I did or said something Anna has made it clear I would feel have more than sore feelings. Our friends uncomfortable but seem to enjoy my humiliation. My buddy a few weeks ago dropped by one saturday to see if I wanted to go with him somewhere. Anna invited him to sit down
and have a coffee. She told him I would be free in ten minutes. When I came in a ten minutes later, he asked as he and I went to Home Depot, what I was doing. I blushed and merely said "Corner Time". He blushed and smiled and said" I understand, Anna has taught my wife about using Corner Time." Later as we were driving home he said " Does corner time arouse you as much as it does me? " I paused a moment and merely nodded yes. We both laughed. It was so great we then had a limited chat about the arousal we felt when our wives took
a firm stand.
Since then we have both shown each other bruises from time to time. It has been great to chat with a man who understands the heat of it all. I would like to say after my corner time last night, Anna seemed to enjoy my oral service that i gave her.
Dan it is so freeing to say what I have said. I don't question why or how come any longer.Thank you for this space you provide.
Anna's Peter
Hi Peter. I am truly envious of the couples who have others to share this with in live conversations.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteThis is my first time contributing but have been an avid reader of your forum for some time.
On a recent flight from the U.K. to USA my wife instructed me to get something from the overhead locker for her. I did so promptly but not realising the air hostess was standing right by us. When she asked my wife how she managed to get such an attentive husband my wife showed her the belt she was wearing and made a comment along the lines of ‘ he knows the consequences of not being so’
Later in the flight I went and asked the same air hostess for a drink for myself as my wife was sleeping. She asked if my wife meant it about the belt. My reply ‘100%. She’s the boss.’
Hi FLR Follower. Great story!
DeleteDanielle here again:
ReplyDeleteWhat’s the word for meaningful coincidences? Synchronicity, I think? I just had an amazing experience of synchronicity.
I went to the gym today, and I was in the steam room inside the women’s change room. A couple of women I know a little were in there at the same time. (When I say “know a little”, I mean that we chat about stuff like the weather sometimes, but not much beyond that. I don’t even know their last names). One of them was telling the other what a “bitch” her brother’s second wife is. She said this woman, who her family never much approved of because she’s “kind of low class”, treats her brother “like shit.”
“What do you mean?” the other woman wanted to know. So did I. I was all ears. LOL
She explained that her sister-in-law orders her brother around, telling him to clean this or do that, and sending him to fetch things for her without even saying please or thank-you. She said she feels embarrassed for her brother and pissed off at her sister-in-law for treating him in such a disrespectful manner, "practically like a servant."
“Why doesn’t he just tell her to f**k off?” the other woman asked.
She replied that she didn’t understand it, but she wished he would “have the self respect” to do that.
At that point, I couldn’t resist jumping in, given all we’ve been talking about here. I asked the woman whether she had ever considered that her brother puts up with such treatment because it may turn him on to be dominated by his wife?
The woman wanted to know what I meant, so I explained to her that that there was a whole FLR lifestyle based on the sexual and domestic domination of men by their female partners. I suggested the possibility that her brother “put up with” his wife’s domineering manner because he loves that aspect of her personality. The women were curious about FLR, so we talked about it, and I suggested the possibility that if her sister-in-law ordered her brother around that way publicly, there was a good chance that she disciplined him with spankings or other forms of punishment when they were alone.
The two women wanted to know why I knew so much about “FLR lifestyle”, so I told them everything! Well, not everything. I didn’t tell them all the bedroom details, but I told them about my husband’s domestic service and about my use of spankings and other forms of discipline. They were fascinated. They wanted to know whether my husband was the tall guy who had been next to me on the rowing machines, and I said he was.
So, I’ve done it! I’ve outed my husband. Mind you, my husband doesn’t know these women, so it’s not like outing him to close friends or family, but it still feels exciting to me to have done this. Incidentally, the woman agreed that FLR may be the most probable explanation of her brother’s submission to his wife’s public bitchiness. She says she will try to adopt a friendlier and more accepting manner with her sister-in-law in an effort to find out more about the nature of her brother’s marriage. She says she may have misjudged her sister-in-law if my theory about her brother is true.
And that makes me think that maybe it’s better for people Wayne and I know to understand why he submits to my public displays of bossiness.
Wow! Very interesting!
DeleteO....M....G.....thats AWESOME. I'll bet you anything the conversation w these ladies isn't over. It sounds like at least the one is interested to hear about it. No doubt she/they think about it a bit and then the next chance they have let's see if any pull you aside w/ more questions. Keep us posted!!!!!
DeleteDanielle,
ReplyDeleteThis was an ideal way for you to broach DD without transgressing any boundaries. You opened the door and they walked right through. I think its more evidence that a lot of women are becoming interested in at least knowing more about these relationships, maybe particularly F?M relationships. Fifty shades and the frequent references in the culture to spanking as well as some highly publicized articles and essays on adult spanking have made it a topic that is or close to mainstream among sophisticated couples.Approaching it the way you did it is also pretty anonymous but close enough to titillate. We had friends we are no longer in contact with who regularly outed themselves when traveling especially in restaurants. But again it was pretty anonymous. Telling family or friends is different and needs to be approached carefully. Nevertheless several people on her side of the family know or strongly suspect and we have had absolutely no blow-back from it. Today I think many are comfortable knowing about adult spanking even if they are not interested in it.Something else going on is a kind of crowd psychology that has kept spanking hidden until lately . Basically people sometimes hold views or interested they don't acknowledge or talk about if they think it is an extreme view or interest.But once something formerly taboo seeps into the mainstream, those same people feel comfortable talking and or acting about the formerly taboo subject. That is happening to adult spanking today.
Alan
I always wonder how much we can read into Fifty Shades when it comes to spanking. First, there really is not a whole lot of spanking in any of the three books, and the first one ends with the lead female character leaving her "Dom" after he delivers her first "real" spanking (consisting of a whopping six slaps with a belt). Second, the Dom's sadism is all attributed to severe childhood abuse. Not exactly a sex positive message. Third, the whole thing is a rather trite "Girl meets disturbed boy and through her love cures him" fantasy. Yeah, there are butt plugs and beads and mild bondage, but it's all pretty tame in the scheme of things. One woman I know said something about the whole phenomenon that I thought was pretty insightful. Her view is that the novels' appeal is more about wealth than D/s.
DeleteDan,
DeleteRe "50" I agree with your characterization of the book. But what is in a book is sometimes less important than what is remembered about the book ( especially by those who didn't read it. Moreover "50"is but the tip of a huge iceberg emerging in American sexual culture as people come to throw off the assumptions we were taught and explore their own sexuality. I think the dramatic shift on gay marriage might have been the tipping point but alternative life styles and interest in them( and DD is surely one) are increasingly accepted - particularly perhaps by millennials and earlier generations. Its not quite a brave new world but its getting there.
Alan
I do think that society is becoming more tolerant in general. As George Will (of all people) said, our kids see being gay as about as interesting as being left-handed. But, I think there is a lot of mixed data out there. Porn of all varieties is more ubiquitous than ever, yet the younger generations are remarkably prudish in other respects. They have having less sex in general, starting later, having fewer partners, etc. Playboy no longer features nude women . . . If anything, the '70s seems to have been the high point for sexual freedom. So, it's a shifting scene, but I think the nature of that shift are debatable. And, while I think that for most of us on this forum the shift is a good thing, that may be more about the fact that it has become more socially acceptable for women to exercise power, but less so for men to do the same. For that reason, someone might be more accepting these days of an F/m dynamic but I am not at all sure the same is true of M/f relationships. And, I'm not sure that 50 Shades proves the contrary, given that most of the book involves her making him *less* kinky and *less* dominant. And, I am not sure that my male friends would be one bit less judgmental about a friend in an FLR dynamic than would have been the case 15 years ago when we first started this.
DeleteDan
DeleteAnd at the same time those male friends might when no-one is looking, hand his belt to a woman and
ask for the sting of leather. The trouble with '50" for me was it erased the kink for what passes as true love.It seems the number of male interest in the subject of F/m discipline far out numbers the ladies.
Were you to run into my Peter at some bar after work you would never assume that when he goes home
he will kneel and ask to be punished.
Anna
I do think men are more interested in F/m discipline than are women, though I think it may be that more men AND women are interested in being disciplined than are interested in being on the "giving" end of the paddle. In both M/f and F/m dynamics, it seems to be the "subs" who initiate more often and "need" it more.
DeleteAnd, I honestly don't know how many men out there are actually disciplined or interested in it. As I've said here multiple times before, I just see no evidence of some widespread participation in DD relationships, especially of the F/m variety. This blog places pretty high in Google search rankings for this lifestyle, yet it gets less than 1,500 page views a day and that is over representative of the number of unique readers. Given that there are about 330M people in the US, the readership of this blog is about .00000036 of the population, and that is a generous estimate. I also read recently about a survey in Canada in which about 36 percent of women and 28.5 percent of men fantasized about being spanked. But, less than half said they wanted a fantasy to become reality. And, those stats were for *all* spankings, not the subset that we address here, namely really, really hard and painful spankings to try to bring about behavioral change. So, while I have no idea what the real number of DD couples is, I would be shocked if it is more than a small fraction of 1% of the population.
DeleteI have bee in 12-step for sex addiction for many years and met hundreds of other addicts. Not one other has revealed a spanking fetish of any type, let alone DD.
DeleteFrank
Danielle here:
ReplyDeleteDan, I agree with your take on the Fifty Shades series. You are right that it isn’t very sex positive insofar as Christian Grey’s need for S&M is the result of childhood emotional trauma, and Anastasia ventures into the world of S&M only to save him from it. I also agree with your friend that the main “fetish” in the story is a wealth fetish.
However, I do agree with Allan that Fifty Shades, consumed by women as light hearted erotic fantasy, has probably helped to normalize spanking and mild BDSM as potential erotic activities. I imagine there are lots of women and some men who like to be playfully spanked as a kind of foreplay.
I think that true DD or full time D/s relationships, like FLR, in which one partner has real disciplinary authority over the other might raise a few more eyebrows.
That being said, I feel as though Wayne and I have turned a corner as a result of my encounter with the two women in the steam room. I had a good discussion about it with Wayne last night, and as a result I have decided to be more open about FLR and DD from now on. Incidentally, with Elizabeth’s earlier post in mind, I used my fingers to keep Wayne in a state of heightened arousal throughout the “discussion.” ;-)
Wayne is both embarrassed and aroused that two women at the gym know I spank him. Of course, he wants to know who the women are. I tried to explain who they were, but he’s not sure who I mean. Thinking about it, I like that he doesn’t know exactly who they are. That means that, in his mind, every woman he sees at the gym may be one of the ones who knows.
When I say I am going to be more open about our FLR, I don’t mean I’m going to make an announcement to friends and family. I’m not going to go out of my way to reveal that I discipline Wayne. I’m just not going to be as careful about concealing it. For example, the next time somebody comments or makes a joke about how “well trained” my husband is, I will probably respond that “there are advantages to having a husband who is amenable to discipline.” If the person takes that as a joke, I will leave it at that. But if anyone asks questions, I will answer them honestly.
I have also moved some of the books Wayne bought about FLR from their basement hiding place to a bookcase in our upstairs hall. People here are probably familiar with the books: “Around Her Finger”, “The Sexually Dominant Woman”, “Female Dominance”, and a book of stories, “Spanked Husbands, Satisfied Wives.” The bookshelf is at the end of the hall where guests don’t usually go, unless they are staying in the guest room, and I have scattered the books throughout the collection, so they likely won’t jump out at anyone who isn’t perusing the collection. I think that anyone who notices the books will probably draw conclusions about their significance. But I don’t feel I will be forcing anything on them. If some curious person pulls one of books out and asks me whether we are “into this stuff,” I will answer honestly.
I don’t foresee actually spanking Wayne in front of witnesses or even within earshot of others. I figure that might make some people uncomfortable, so I wouldn’t want to force it on anyone. However, if somebody expressed an interest in witnessing a spanking, I would consider it. I do find the idea of it exciting.
Hi Danielle. I do agree with your second paragraph, and the way that book spread as a cultural phenomenon still amazes me, and I have no way to explain it. Some have speculated it was because it came along at around the same time that e-readers were becoming prevalent, so others couldn't see what was being read, but that reflects only part of the readership. I remember seeings stacks of it in airport book stores. On one flight, I walked down the aisle to the restroom and saw three different women, of vastly different ages, reading paperback versions openly. And, that was just on one flight!
DeleteIt's great that you and Wayne are becoming more comfortable with being open about this. I look forward to hearing how that works out.
Danielle here:
DeleteDan, I think e-readers are part of the explanation for the popularity of Fifty Shades. Sales probably took off because it allowed people to read a soft porn novel secretly. Then, once it was on the bestsellers list, many other women felt empowered to buy and read the paperback version in public.
I know some people see the popularity of Fifty Shades as a set-back for feminism. I see it differently. I think it shows the coming-of-age of feminism. Lots of women have always been turned on by M/F spanking as an erotic fantasy. The fantasy of being “tamed” over the knee of a rich, powerful but loving man has been a staple of the women’s romance genre for a long time. Fifty Shades takes that motif and pushes it to an extreme.
There are lots of women who agree with most of the goals of feminism, and who consider themselves to be the equals of men, who nevertheless enjoy erotic M/F spanking fantasies. But feminism has made those women feel guilty about getting turned on by a fantasy that appears to support an old fashioned patriarchal social order. I see the popularity of Fifty Shades not as a repudiation of feminism itself, but as a declaration of independence from the kind of feminism that polices our erotic fantasies.
Personally, I find it more erotic to be the one giving the spanking, but I know I am in the minority. I also know that some feminists are just as critical of women like me who cater to needs of men who want to be spanked as they are of women who want to be spanked by their men. Women who want to be spanked are accused of submitting to patriarchy. And women who give spankings are accused of putting the masochistic sexuality of their partners ahead of their own desires, and therefore STILL submitting to patriarchy. In a way, that’s true. When I agreed to try FLR, I was adapting to my husband’s sexual desires, but so what? That’s my right, and it worked for my marriage. Another feminist objection to my kind of FLR is that when I treat my husband like a 1950’s housewife, we are playing with gender stereotypes instead of rejecting those stereotypes completely. There is some truth to that too. But once again I say “so what”. My husband and I both believe that men and women are equal, but we find consensual inequality sexy. That’s our business.
I believe it is possible to be a feminist while living a D/s lifestyle of either orientation, and I see the popularity of Fifty Shades as a rebellion by feminist women of the policing and politicization of our sexual fantasies by other women. There. End of rant.
Hi Danielle. Rant away. I couldn't agree with you more. I've had to adjust some of my own thinking in this area. I used to have a negative reaction to M/f dominance and DD, because it *did* seem to reinforce old-fashioned gender roles and patriarchy. I also worried about consent issues, because like most men in F/m relationships I know that I have the physical and economic power to resist anything truly non-consensual. That seemed like a more problematic assumption in M/f dynamics. I adjusted my thinking once I actually started interacting on-line with some people in M/f dynamics and saw that the women often were the ones who initiated the DD relationships and often did so for the same reasons I did. While I do think there are differences in the dynamics, consent was not one of them. I do still have qualms about Christian DD and consent, because it does bring the whole idea of religiously compelled submission into play. But, one has to wonder whether sometimes the religious overlay is a rationalization for the kink.
DeleteTo me, the central message of feminism and the equal rights movement were about choice and autonomy. Ironic how in some circles that got twisted into people with agendas once again dictating the choices women should be allowed to make. Thankfully, I'm pretty good at telling people who tell me how to think or act to go fuck themselves.
I don't have any problem with "Christian DD", as long as the woman has a way out of it if she doesn't consent. My own feeling is that the women who "submit" to their husbands that way are probably into spanking as a kink, and the religious overlay justifies the kink. It may even heighten the eroticism. Who knows? If a husband uses brute force to subject a non-consenting partner to corporal punishment, with or without religious "justification", he could be charged with spousal abuse, I believe. But good support services for abused women are essential.
ReplyDeleteDanielle
I agree, and to be clear, I am not saying that I think Christian DD relationships of the M/f variety are inherently non-consensual. I just think the consent issue gets trickier when there is a view that the family power structure and the female submission is dictated by god. The alleged divine imprimatur and, indeed, divine command makes the consent iffy even in the absence of brute force.
DeleteAlso, as KD has commented a couple of times, spousal abuse charges in this area aren't as contingent on consent as one would think. The law as it exists today is not very BDSM friendly, and affirmative consent is not necessarily a good defense to an assault charge. Now, the case law is a mess because most of the reported cases arise in messy factual situations in which one party has turned on the other, and there are very, very few reported cases where the dominant party in an actual married couple has been successfully prosecuted for assault for spanking or BDSM activities. But, consent as a defense remains tricky.
A further thought. I have to agree with you, Dan, that a D/s relationship with a M/f dynamic may be perceived more negatively than one with a F/m dynamic. That’s because the M/f dynamic reinforces a bad old gender stereotype, and M/f spousal abuse is more prevalent than F/m spousal abuse.
DeleteIf my D/s relationship with Wayne was reversed, and guests saw me doing all the work in the kitchen while Wayne chatted and drank with guests without lifting a finger to help me, our liberal friends would probably see Wayne as a patriarchal dickhead and me as “oppressed”, whether I was playing the “submissive housewife” role willingly or not. Now that I think of that, I have seen an example of that in Wayne’s own family. He has a niece who married a wealthy corporate lawyer about 20 years ago. I can recall that when we went to their palatial house for a family dinner back then, his niece behaved very much like a submissive housewife, and I thought her husband behaved like a condescending male chauvinist who was full of himself. I figured he was arrogant because he had so much money and that he regarded Wayne’s niece as a trophy wife. (She was very pretty).
My response at the time was very much like that of the woman in the change room who thought her sister-in-law was treating her brother “like shit.” I remember telling Wayne at the time that I didn’t like his niece’s husband at all. As I recall, Wayne said that maybe we shouldn’t judge him too hastily because it was possible that his niece liked being treated that way. (Basically, the same thing I told that woman in the change room). That was before Wayne first revealed to me that he wanted a FLR, so I didn’t know anything about D/s relationships, and it didn’t occur to me that anything erotic might be going on. I can see that as a possibility now, but I couldn’t back then. Wayne, on the other hand, was attuned to that possibly because of his own secret fantasies. I should mention that the niece is still happily married to that guy and has three teenaged children.
Danielle
Yes, I think this is exactly right. Wayne was apparently more attuned to that dynamic than I would have been. I probably would have, like you, attributed their dynamic to him being a jerk and/or her being a dishrag. The possibility that it was a conscious, erotically driven choice probably would not have occurred to me.
DeleteDan, I agree with everything you said about the way religious beliefs can make the issue of consent trickier, and that the whole issue of consent in D/s relationships can be tricky to begin with.
ReplyDeleteDanielle
Danielle,
DeleteI LOVED your "consensual inequality" that you mentioned above! That is exactly spot on about how consent works for us.
-ZM
Hi Dan,
ReplyDeleteLife is crazy and doesn’t seem to be getting better quickly, but this week I am commenting before Saturday, so that is progress!
Much will be a repeat of the topic a few months ago about “others,” since though the question this time is technically about public displays of authority, it still leads to how comfortable we are with others knowing.
For my wife and I, the answers to the questions about displays of authority are predetermined by the ultra-traditional society in which we live. Even if we wanted to be more open, it wouldn’t be very accepted. Consequently, everything about this is likely to remain purely theoretical. But still it is a fun thought exercise!
This topic, like many others involving DD/FLR, shows some of the internal conflict I have, so I will just write my random thoughts without trying to reconcile them. If only I could understand myself, maybe I could better articulate my thoughts!
Since DD is such a part of me, in a way I would like to have some others know about it and for it not to have to be so hidden and forbidden. If it could be more in the open, it would make it much more “real.” Plus it would be very humbling, which would be both good and bad.
If anyone were to know, most important to me would be who it is. The thought of a stranger knowing doesn’t really do that much for me. At the same time, I wouldn’t want any of our children or our parents to know. If a brother or sister knew, it would greatly depend on which one. Probably the ideal would be someone who is reasonably close to either my wife or I (preferably her), but at the same time not anyone that we see all the time.
At the same time, I don’t want anyone to know because there IS undoubtedly a sexual undercurrent to it. Also, I like the intimacy that comes from it only being between my wife and I. So I go to great lengths to make sure nobody finds out. As I said a few months ago, if only someone could be told all about it, but then forget it all the next day!
The idea of having someone else witness a punishment would be just wild beyond imagination, since it seems that girls when they get together can have lots of fun being quite bitchy and cruel, for lack of better words. I am thinking like sorority girls trying to dream up horrible ordeals for the girls joining their sorority to endure. Having said that about how wild and exciting that would be, I have absolutely NO desire (nor have I ever had) for anything sexual involving another person or any sort of three-way.
Now that I think about it, a sorority type hazing setting or a public punishment for breaking rules would actually be the “dream scenario.” While there is a sexual humiliation element, there is also a certain reality to it (motivation because you want to be or remain part of the sorority), and also a fun element, and in the end it is not really all THAT sexual and in no way intimate. Of course for this, I would also have to be a female…
And finally while the idea of someone else witnessing a punishment seems hot, somehow also secrecy is hot too. I imagine a scene where I am securely locked in our bedroom (so no fear of anyone entering), standing in the corner, maybe wearing a diaper filled with nettles, etc. while others are around. Somehow, the idea that punishment is taking place and nobody would know is exciting.
Anyway, as promised, that was definitely random!
-ZM
Hi ZM. I'm sorry life is so crazy. Same here, unfortunately. For us, I agree that a stranger knowing wouldn't mean much to me one way or another. I wouldn't want any family member to know, though the dreams I recounted last week might suggest the contrary. For me, it would be nice to have someone who is actually in the lifestyle, in a context in which we could both be open.
DeleteDanielle here:
DeleteZM, I’ve been meaning to comment on this paragraph in your post:
>>>>And finally while the idea of someone else witnessing a punishment seems hot, somehow also secrecy is hot too. I imagine a scene where I am securely locked in our bedroom (so no fear of anyone entering), standing in the corner, maybe wearing a diaper filled with nettles, etc. while others are around. Somehow, the idea that punishment is taking place and nobody would know is exciting.<<<<
First point: wearing a diaper filled with nettles? That fantasy is hot? Yikes! I fell into a patch of nettles once when I was a child, and I cannot imagine inflicting a punishment that cruel on my husband. Imagine if all disciplinary wives had imaginations as sadistic as the imaginations of some of you guys are masochistic.
Second point: I agree with you that the combination of private and public is hot, and I have an example of that. Whenever I spank my husband during daylight hours, I do it in the bedroom with the blinds and curtains open. For a paddling or a strapping, I make my husband bend over the edge of the bed with a folded pillow under his hips to raise his bum. If I use the hairbrush, I often sit on the end of the bed and take him across my lap.
Whether I am standing up with the paddle or strap, or sitting on the bed with the hairbrush, I can look out the windows and see people on the street or neighbors in their yards. Depending on the light, I presume they can sometimes see me from about the chest up, but unless someone was actually at the peak of the neighbors’ roof, Wayne would be beneath the line of sight of anyone on the street or on our neighbors’ properties.
That arrangement gives me an exciting feeling that I am giving my husband a bare bottomed spanking in a public place, but at the same time the spanking is secret since my husband is hidden from view. It is possible that neighbors or passers-by have caught a glimpse of me spanking my husband, but it is unlikely that anyone would have known what I was doing. Needless to say, when I spank with the blinds open, I make sure the windows are closed, because if sound was added to sight, people would probably realize I was spanking my husband.
I have seen internet pictures of a card you hang on a motel room door that says "Do not disturb, spanking in progress." Obviously an attempt to make DD more public! But do those cards actually exist? Has anyone ever seen one ... or used one in real life?
DeleteFrank
All this brings to mind an interesting contradiction I have experienced and I am curious what other might think about it.
ReplyDeleteBeing married to Aunt Kay obviously involved meeting a lot of other like-minded people. So I was generally comfortable taking orders from other wives and seeing them guide their husbands behavior.
However a few years ago I had a visit with an old friend from college who came out West with his wife and daughter. He was always a fun-loving and assertive kind of guy - kind, generous, and great company. He had turned into such a hen-pecked man, really fearful of doing or saying anything that either of them wouldn't like - especially the daughter. It is extremely unlikely that there was any FLR involved.
I was so horrified by the whole scenario that I broke off most communication with him. In fact, other than informing him about my wife's passing, I have had nothing else to say to him.
Anyway, I wonder about it.
Hi Tomy. I'm not totally clear on the contradiction you are talking about. Is it that the men you interacted with through the DWC ere strong and confident and, unlike your friend, not hen-pecked?
DeleteProbably because of reading all the content on the DWC, my original vision was of a bunch of Alphas who seek out this lifestyle not despite the fact that they are Alphas, but because of it. Over time, I've come to believe that those people are probably about 50% or the DD population, though perhaps they are over-represented among those who are into DD but not necessarily FLR.
I don't really relate that much to Greek letters. Most of the DWC men I met were pretty self-confident. Some were downright aggressive and only one or two were what I guess one would call subservient in nature.
DeleteThe contradiction I was referring to was that I do not lose respect for men who are disciplined by spanking, which implies,obviously control by their wives.
My old friend turned into a doormat and I felt no connection with him. It was like he was trying to tell me "this isn't really what I want to do to say. But I have to accommodate these two women."
That's nothing like being accountable to your wife based on an agreed upon, and desired, understanding that there are spanking consequences and they are at her discretion.
Am I making any more sense?
I get it, and on some level maybe it really is inconsistent or contradictory. I have a similar reaction to communications by some submissives, particularly any fawning expressions of servility. Yet, it's different only in degree and not in kind from some aspects of my relationship. I also wonder whether it's possible that it wasn't really the fact the became hen-pecked that bothered you, but that he just wasn't the same person who was once your friend? I had a similar situation with one friend from high school who, when I saw him years later, had become a very different person. I just didn't feel like he was the same guy I had grown up with, and I didn't have any real interest in maintaining the relationship.
DeleteTomy,
DeleteMaybe you responded so strongly because you know that DD is so much better than (and a solution to) hen-pecking. A wife with a paddle does not need to hen-peck because her husband knows what happens if he does not do what he is supposed to do. DD is the end of nagging! So you saw an easily resolved situation ...that was not going to be resolved. And of course you saw your friend being disrespected.
As has been said here many times, one of the best benefits of DD is an end to nagging and arguing over inane topics. The paddle settles those in the favor of the DWC wife, which is also to the husband's great benefit. Sort of, "My wife used to be a bitch, now she spanks me and is sweet as pie."
Elizabeth
Thanks Elizabeth. I think your use of the word "disrespected" helped me clarify my reaction. I guess I can't real abide people I have no respect for. Yes, "people". Men and women.
DeleteAnd I have tons of respect for men whose wives discipline them and of course the women in those mutually desired relationships.
I will noodle on that a bit more. But I think you got it.
That does seem to me to be an important word that might clarify the contradiction you and I both recognize in our reactions. Even when my wife is in leadership mode, that leadership doesn't entail a lack of respect. Similarly, me initiating our DD relationship and, increasingly, it's FLR aspects doesn't mean I don't respect myself. If anything, it reflects me having a strong ego that I recognize needs some moderating. Maybe you lost interest in the relationship with your friend because it is hard to respect someone who doesn't respect themselves and who isn't respected by the person they've chosen to build their life with?
DeleteExactly. It was on my mind for some time about why I no longer was interested in communicating with him. The DWC never, ever, impinged on my self-respect or self-esteem.
DeleteDanielle here:
DeleteI agree with Elizabeth that the best way to prevent “hen-pecking” is to give the wife disciplinary power. It is better to paddle than to peck. ;-)
More seriously, Tomy’s post got me to thinking because the example of his “hen-pecked” friend seems a bit sinister, so I’ve been trying to sort out my feelings about “hen-pecking” and about the difference between FLR and hen-pecking. Or whether there is a real difference.
I would say, first of all, that the term “hen-pecked husband” insults both the husband and his wife. Ideally, I think husbands and wives should be equal partners based on mutual love and respect. That’s the ideal. The reality is that there will be power struggles within every marriage because no two individuals see eye to eye on everything. There will sometimes be disagreements about everything from the division of household labor to how often and in what ways they should have sex.
Human diversity being what it is, one partner in the marriage will often emerge as the overall victor in these intimate power struggles, and the other will, either willingly or unwillingly, bend to the will of the dominant partner. According to traditional ideas of gender roles, the husband should wear the pants. A man allowing the wife to upend that “natural” hierarchy has generally been seen as a recipe for disharmony. Traditional male dominance was, of course, bolstered by two things: the superior physical strength of men, and the economic dependence of women on men, especially when women sacrifice their individual economic status to have children.
There have, however, always been couples in which the wife “usurps” the husband’s dominant status, in spite of the husband’s economic and physical advantages. When women have dominated, it has often been by sheer force of character. Often such women bring their husbands to heel purely by the sharpness of their tongues. (We even have an expression in English, “tongue lashing”, which recognizes that speech can have punitive power). Such domineering women used to be denigrated as “shrews”, and husbands incapable of “taming the shrew” would be ridiculed too. Back to the term “hen-pecking”. That image ridicules both the wife, pecking verbally at her husband like a hen, and the husband who gives in to that constant verbal pecking.
Now, is “hen-pecking” a type of FLR? I suppose it is. Tomy, you said that your friend seemed to be afraid to do or say anything that would displease his wife or his daughter. Clearly, he was allowing himself to be ruled by the women in his house, so his marriage was “female led” just as surely as my marriage is female led. And I suppose that some people might say that my husband is “hen-pecked”—or “pussy whipped”, as I believe young men say nowadays.
So now I am thinking, what makes my FLR different from the situation of Tomy’s friend? Do I “disrespect” my husband when I demand his obedience? And do I, thereby, make him unworthy of the respect of other people? Have I made him into a “servile” human being, with all the negative connotations of that word? I will have to address those questions in a second part.
Danielle here, continued from above:
DeleteTomy, you’ve really got me thinking here, and it isn’t easy. Sorry if my thoughts seem repetitive and a bit confused.
Okay, so seen from the outside, my FLR may look similar to the marriage of Tomy’s “hen-pecked” friend. I mean, I control Wayne in ways most men would find embarrassing. For example, suppose Wayne was Tomy’s friend, and Tomy said, “Hey, Wayne, let’s go out for a couple of beers after work.” Wayne would have to say to Tomy, “I’d love to, but I have to check with my wife to make sure she doesn’t have other plans.” (I’m assuming Wayne would say something like that, rather than telling the simple truth that he would need my permission). So then, let’s say Wayne calls me for permission and I say “no”. So then Wayne has to tell Tomy that he can’t, and Tomy might conclude that Wayne is “afraid of his wife” or that he is behaving like a “doormat”, and he might lose respect for him. For all we know, Tomy’s friend might be just like Wayne, right? I mean, viewed by an outsider who didn’t understand the inner dynamics of each case, the two cases might look the same.
But when I look at Tomy’s description of his friend’s situation, I sense something sinister about it. Tomy wrote:
“He was always a fun-loving and assertive kind of guy - kind, generous, and great company. He had turned into such a hen-pecked man, really fearful of doing or saying anything that either of them wouldn't like - especially the daughter. It is extremely unlikely that there was any FLR involved.”
I’m not sure why Tomy thinks it unlikely that FLR was involved. I suppose it is because the husband is as “fearful” of his daughter as of his wife, and it would be beyond weird for the daughter to be involved in DD. But the sinister thing, in my mind, is the personality change from a guy who was “kind, generous, and great company” to someone who presumably no longer was any of those things. In other words, being “hen-pecked” damaged his personality.
I believe that D/s relationships based not on consent, but on some real power imbalance in a marriage, if exploited selfishly by the dominant partner, can do psychological damage. The flattening of Tomy’s friend’s personality would seem to indicate that his marriage had destroyed his self-esteem, making him a joyless, fearful person. We can’t know how the wife, and even the daughter, came to dominate him, but I suspect they found in him some psychological vulnerability that enabled them to undermine his self-esteem, making him feel inadequate as husband and father. In that way they keep him under their thumbs.
The difference in my FLR with Wayne, is that our “power exchange” is based on Wayne’s own needs, and we have worked out the details through detailed negotiation. Therefore, I don’t think my husband’s self esteem has been damaged, and his personality has not been modified. He is still the man I married, and I don’t think anyone else would think he is less fun-loving than he ever was. Also, we both approach our FLR with a sense of humor and an erotic playfulness. Although I have real disciplinary power, I don’t think Wayne fears me. I think his submission to me is based on erotic enthrallment, not fear. Finally, we both know that on a deep level we are equals who have agreed not to act like equals, so there is no real loss of respect.
Danielle, great stuff, and I struggled with the same thing you did -- I sense something is different about his friend's situation but I can't quite pinpoint what it is that gave Tomy, and you and I, the negative reaction. Or, are we just being hypocrites? I think you are right that the difference lies in either the consent element, or possibly, in the idea that in a healthy, functional DD relationship both sides are benefited and both parties are built up and improved, not one empowered and one degraded. I often come back to military models when thinking through how DD should work. Boot camp is a tough experience for new recruits, as is a lifestyle built on taking orders. Yet, the goal in the military is never to break the soldier down and degrade them in the long run, though that very well could be what happens in the short run. Any immediate degradation serves the larger purpose of building them into a stronger soldier and eventually, hopefully, a strong leader in their own right. Early in our FLR exploration, I worried about whether it might negatively impact my performance in other areas by making me servile and tentative. Then I thought about the military model, in which people usually are both givers and takers of orders, up and down the chain of command.
DeleteGreat analysis and deep thinking. I'll give my two-cents - again. But it will no doubt open yet a new can of worms. But intellectual worms aren't bad.
DeleteI suspect, but have no evidence to validate it, that he is living out the family role models he grew up with. They say people "marry their father or mother". I know I did and in my case Mom was really lovely. Perhaps in his parent's case they were bickerers.
I very firmly believe that there is little or nothing of relevance between his situation and lifestyle and that of a man in an FLR situation. The man in a DWC/FLR situation is among the very rare few who gets to experience their dream fantasies in real life.
I think DWC wives take on a lot with respect to learning about, and implementing the lifestyle. In my experience from meeting a lot of people the wives are motivated by giving and it is generous giving.
So in my opinion anyway, you can put your worries into a balloon and let them fly away. I don't think I have ever met a man who found his DWC relationship so onerous that he would choose to not be in it. Sure we might whine or complain about this and that. But the bottom line is men who have that are damn lucky and they know it.
When Frank and I are out at a party and I want another glass of wine, one of three things happens:
Delete1. He notices my glass is empty and asks if he can refill it.
2. I gesture to him with my glass or my head, and he refills it.
3. I say. Frank, dear, would you get me another glass of wine?" And he refills it.
None of these are hen-pecking. None are nagging. None are demeaning. This is a husband being attentive to his wife. And it could happen outside DD and FLR. Though maybe not often.
Certainly DD has enhanced my husband's attentiveness. And NOBODY would call him hen-pecked because I DO NOT NAG. I ask. Then I spank. Then I ask again. LOL. So Frank is not hen-picked. Pussy whipped, maybe. Or maybe the perfect gentleman. Or the truth: paddle motivated.
Elizabeth
Elizabeth, I love the way spanking our husbands frees us from the need to nag. Nagging is a symptom of powerlessness. For me, the most empowering words in my vocabulary are, "Don't make me tell you again." I say those words quietly and calmly, and Wayne gets the message that I am not going to nag. He knows that beyond that point a hairbrush, paddle, or strap will do the talking. I actually feel bad for women who feel the need to nag their husbands because, though it reflects badly on the husbands, it makes the women look bad.
DeleteDanielle
"I ask. Then I spank." Nice.
Delete"Don't make me tell you again." Great addition to every budding DD wife's repertoire of phrases.
I forgot to comment on the excellence of the quote starting this topic. Perfect!
ReplyDeleteThanks. I like that one, too.
DeleteThat opening quote reminds me of my favorite Dear Abby of all time (as politically incorrect as the second part is today):
Delete"If a politician says yes, he means maybe. If a politician says maybe, he means no. If a politician says no, he's no politician.
If a lady says no, she means maybe. If a lady says maybe, she means yes. If a lady says yes, she's no lady."
Frank
Oh, my dear husband. While that Dear Abby may have been funny 40 years ago, I think you and I will have to have a "discussion" about yes meaning yes and no meaning no. Especially from a lady. Even more especially from me. Put that in your book for Friday! We'll see how funny you think it is then!
DeleteElizabeth
Oh good. Nice to see that Elizabeth appreciated Franks sense of humor.
DeleteTomy, there was no way Elizabeth could let that one pass. I'm pretty sure Frank knew he was tempting fate with that old joke. I love the sense of humor shown in Elizabeth's response, and I imagine that Frank does too.
DeleteDanielle
I happen to know that 'no' does indeed mean 'maybe' from certain women at certain times......because I have always purposely (and even a little mischievously spiteful) taken "no" as "no" and been amused at the disappointment that sometimes followed. It's like a game I've played since I was in high school, meant to teach a lesson to girls with ambiguous refusals. I'd like to think my little game of dropping things cold when they were just being coy and then telling them "hey if you say 'no', then don't expect me to keep trying because you didn't really mean it" maybe prevented them from being date-raped years later.
DeleteOf course nowadays "no" from a woman still means 'Maybe', but with the caveat that they reserve the right to change that to a hard 'no' retroactively if you ever become famous.' ;-)
Danielle here:
DeleteKD, I want to say that I agree with both you and Elizabeth on the question as to whether “no means maybe” from some women in some circumstances. Most women my age probably have said “no” when what we felt was “maybe” in our youth. I know that sometimes the “no” was part of a coquettish game of playing coy or hard to get, when “no” was not really intended. Young women who PLAY that game probably deserve to be soundly spanked by their mothers because intentionally giving confusing signals to boys is a dangerous game for all involved.
But sometimes we girls would give tentative “no’s”, not because we were playing games, but because our sexual desires were at odds with our awareness of potential consequences to our reputations or to our future wellbeing if we got pregnant. If a guy says to a girl who has said no, “Come on, I know you really want to,” he may be right that part her really wants to but wrong because there are very serious reasons for her reluctance. Therefore, I think a man should regard a woman’s “reluctance” as something to respect rather than something to overcome.
Having raised two boys, I can tell you that I worried a great deal about the potential consequences of unclear consent for my boys. I worried especially about the younger one because he was popular with girls (the older one turned out to be gay), and he undoubtedly had a lot more pre-marital sexual experience than either his father or I had. What especially worried me is that I know that the young men and women he hung out with were really into “party culture”, meaning that they had sexual adventures fuelled by alcohol and drugs. As a mother of boys, that worried me because social consensus seems to be that if a girl is intoxicated she can’t consent due to impaired judgment, but if a boy is intoxicated that is no excuse for having sex with a girl who is in the same condition as him. That seems a bit unfair to me, as it puts all the responsibility on boys. I told our sons that they should never have sex when they or the girls they were with were drinking precisely for that reason. But I also knew that wasn’t very realistic.
To conclude, yes KD, you are right about the complexities of consent. But, on the other hand, if my husband had ever joked to my sons that “no means maybe”, I would have done exactly what Elizabeth intends to do with Frank, that is if I had had the power to paddle Wayne’s backside back then. Young men nowadays have to understand no to mean no, whatever the circumstances, and young women need to understand that they have a responsibility not to confuse boys on the issue of consent by playing coy.
I have always taught "no is no" even while knowing it isn't always the case. And I have no problem with how my kids turned out. But more of that has to do with example than instruction.
DeleteAs for spanking over jokes? Maybe a playful one, but not a DD one as far as I'm concerned. A serious discipline session over a joke would be no laughing matter....pun intended. Perhaps if a father was seriously advising a son to never take no for an answer from a date, a DD one would be warranted.....but in that case, a spanking seems trite.
Personally I'm glad I lived when I did. Me dating as a young person now might well lead to celibacy...............for a lot of reasons.
I have a personal history somewhat similar to KD's with respect to "no means maybe" or other expressions of reluctance. My wife still remembers that when we first started dating, it was I who initially suggested we should wait a little longer to have sex just to make sure we were both "ready." What she didn't know, but I later admitted, was that was a move I had been employing since high school when a girl I was dating said she wasn't sure we were ready, and I turned the tables by agreeing with her! When I suggested maybe she was right and we should wait longer, it made her totally nuts and she took it as a challenge. Lesson learned on my part. After that, I made it a habit to express some reservation about having sex right away, and every time it basically set the hook and caused them to be much more intent in pursuing the relationship. Apparently, as KD's comment point out, playing hard to get works well for both genders.
DeleteDanielle: BTW I left you a sort of invitation in a past week's thread and never got a reply, so I am not sure if you saw it and just weren't interested, but I was basically saying that I think you might enjoy a visit to my blog. Dan is a regular there, as is Tomy and Merry. Just a thought.
DeleteThanks for the invitation, KD. Sorry for not replying earlier. I have had a look at your blog and especially at some of your artwork which I love. I will visit your blog again, and perhaps leave some comments if I have something relevant to say. I'm surprised how much time I've spent online here recently. Until now, I've never been one for getting involved with things online.
DeleteAs to the spanking Elizabeth has promised Frank for that joke, I took it more light heartedly than you, it seems. What I understood was that Elizabeth was warning Frank with a humorous glint her eye that there will be a few extra smacks in his Friday spanking session for that remark, not that she intends to beat his sense of humor out of him. But then I am probably not as harsh with corporal punishment as your wife is, so maybe I tend to feel less solemn about "punishments" than many wives in purely DD relationships would. I don't know. I find that there is a humorous side to spanking, and I got a feeling from Elizabeth's cheeky warning to Frank that she is kindred spirit in that sense. Maybe I am wrong, but I have a feeling that if Elizabeth and I were next door neighbors and we somehow discovered that we were both disciplinary wives, we would have fun with that shared knowledge, giggling over cups of tea or glasses of wine. For me, having the power to spank my husband is a lot of fun, and I sense that Elizabeth feels the same way. Am I right about that, Elizabeth?
Danielle
By the way, KD, I find your stories of "punishing" women by taking obviously coy "no's" as real "no's" amusing. Likewise, Dan, your story about using reverse psychology on women on the issue of being "ready." That made me laugh. But you are both very naughty boys, and as a representative of my gender, it makes me happy to know that you both answer to women who paddle your bums. ;-)
DeleteDanielle
Thankfully, my wife was not a spanker back then, nor were her predecessors!
DeleteYes, it was lighthearted. Some boys on here can get riled up about anything. Sigh.
DeleteElizabeth
Dan, since neither your wife nor her predecessors held you to account for your naughtiness back then, your wife should make up for lost time now. I would. ;-)
DeleteElizabeth, I know that we are very different in some ways, and your DD is quite different from my FLR, so some of the guys here seem to see us as opposites. But I feel that we have a great deal in common, which is why I totally get your sense of humor, whether the discussion concerns spankings or bj’s. I also get the feeling that you and Frank have a shared sense of humor concerning DD, similar to the shared sense of humor Wayne and I bring to our FLR. I don’t think I could have embraced DD or FLR if it wasn’t sexy and fun for both me and my man.
Danielle
Personally I think Danielle should come up with a topic in Dan's place and write the intro entry (forget the pictures). And we will tack our entries on here and impress the hell out of Dan.
ReplyDeleteFrank
I'm happy to facilitate that and would even suggest a great one for her: The Freedom of Becoming a Bitch, as she put it a few weeks ago. Danielle, if you would like to talk about that, or any other topic, feel free to send to me by email and I will post it. Or, post it as comment(s) here, an I will cut and past them into a post.
DeleteThanks for the offer of a guest spot, Dan, but I have written so much about being “a bitch” over the last few weeks that I’m not sure I have anything left to say. LOL I haven’t written that much since college!
DeleteActually, I want to post some thoughts in the thread flowing from Tomy’s interesting comment about the “hen pecked” friend, but I’m a bit short of time right now. Today is hubby’s birthday, and if you can believe it I’ve been wearing an apron in the kitchen! (Giving him a day off).
Oh, and I am going to act on an idea that Elizabeth gave me. She mentioned that on Frank’s birthday she gives him a special treat. That is something I had thought never again to do for Wayne, since I find it kind of yucky, and being the unfair bitch that I am, but Elizabeth has inspired me, so tonight I am going to blow Wayne’s….um, mind. ;-)
Actually, I’m kind of turned on by the idea of going down on Wayne tonight. He is going to be sooo surprised! LOL That’s what’s turning me on about it. I’m going to give him a “good boy” birthday spanking too, so he’ll be really turned on before I give him the BIG surprise.
You see, I may be a bitch, but sometimes I use my powers benevolently. ;-)
Danielle
What? You're not going to be watching the Game of Thrones finale? :-)
DeleteLOL, Dan. Fortunately, we never got hooked on Game of Thrones. Fortunately for Wayne, that is. If he had turned down my invitation to join me in the bedroom to receive his birthday gift in order to watch TV, he would not have had another chance of getting a blow job from me within this lifetime. ;-)
DeleteDanielle
I wish my wife would go down on me for my birthday but she always tells me she would never be able to find it because it's so small.
ReplyDeleteLOL I like your wife's style, Dan. I bet you do too. ;-)
DeleteDanielle
Small is good for a woman performing oral! In fact, the smaller the better!
DeleteElizabeth
Damn. I'm blushing just reading this.
DeleteElizabeth, I almost feel as though you were eavesdropping on the teasing that accompanied the special treat I gave my husband last night. ;-)
DeleteDanielle
Richard Pryor once did a very funny bit about an old man getting oral for the first time and thinking it was going to kill him. I believe the joke ended with the character saying, "honey, please! I'll give you $20 just to stop!"
DeleteI'm not sure why women always criticize how clumsy men are giving oral while they talk like they are experts in contrast? The truth is women are mostly just as bad at it as men are......the only difference being that even a bad bj to a guy is still welcome almost any time. Well that's not the only difference. A guy will probably be far more eager to oblige a woman than most women seem to be at returning the favor. So women can afford to be fussy whereas the guy is just glad he's getting one......even if it's possibly not that great.
(A lot of estrogen pride flying around this week, so I'm just providing a little reality check. LOL)
No doubt you are right, KD. I have absolutely no doubt that my husband is much better at giving oral than I am. He gets so much more practice. ;-)
ReplyDeleteBut hubby was appreciative of the gift he got. I suppose that even if it wasn't "great", the rarity of it increased it's value. :-)
Danielle
Danielle: Nicely put. You were honest and yet still managed to work some Femdom into it.
DeleteHow true about rarity increasing the value, Danielle!
ReplyDeleteFrank receives this treat just twice a year and looks forward to it immensely. I know he finds it quite enjoyable, regardless of my technique, based on: his condition before we even begin; the extreme sounds he makes during the event; and the very short duration (which of course I don't mind at all).
So while I don't have the advantage of small, I do have the advantage of short!
Whew!
Elizabeth
I just deleted a whole string of attack comments or things that can and were received that way. Unfortunately, I think I also also inadvertently wiped out one of Danielle's because it replied to one of the comments I deleted. Sorry Danielle, that deletion was accidental. The others were on purpose. Was really hoping not to have to police things this week . . .
DeleteThat's okay, Dan. My post probably went way over the line into "too much information", as they say.
DeleteDanielle
Well, I didn't read it before accidentally deleting it, so I'm not in a position to judge the extent of its TMI. ;-)
DeleteI would just like to say I have surfed your blog now & then over the past year & am sincerely impressed with the intelligent and worthwhile contributions by so many folks practicing DD & or FLR. Most especially the women & in particular, Danielle & Elizabeth. I lost my wife a few months ago & we only ever played at the edges of spanking & domination (For a host of reasons). I still regret that. I'm pleased most of you won't experience that loss. The only question I have for Danielle...Do you have a sister?
ReplyDelete