Saturday, February 2, 2019

The Club -- Meeting No. 283 -- The Maternal Element



Strong women intimidate boys and excite men. – unknown

 Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships. 

I hope you all had a great week.  Mine was, once again, exhausting.  I’ve taken on a new, longer-term project at work.   If I succeed, it could make a positive difference for many people in our company and would be a big personal accomplishment.  But (there’s always a “but,” isn’t there?), it is challenging not just objectively but in relation to my own personal historical roadblocks.  First, it involves trying to fix an aspect of our business that has been a chronic problem, and there is no easy fix.  It is going to take both time and consistent, diligent effort.  Unfortunately, I have a problem called “short attention span.”  I tend to be way better at short bursts of very concentrated effort.  So, maintaining focus over the course of a project that will probably take at least a year, and maybe longer, is going to be hard.  Second, this is going to involve even more travel and probably more work-related socializing and networking.  We all know those are my major tripwires where personal behavior is concerned, and because I will be on the road even more, my wife will have even fewer opportunities to keep me in line in a focused and consistent way.  So, I go into this weekend feeling exhilarated about the new challenge but leery of what my historical track record could bode for whether it is ultimately successful. 

I thought we had a great discussion last week.  Thanks to Elizabeth for suggesting it.  It seems pretty clear that the "recipe" for using DD successfully is:
  • agreement that a change is necessary or wife who is determined to bring the change about whether he likes it or not; and
  • reasonable expectations, including that DD may be successful in reducing unwanted behavior even if it does not eradicate it entirely
Near the end of last week's talk, Frank and Tomy brought up the issue of maternal authority and power.  In discussing one aspect of his wife’s authority, Frank observed:

“When she comes up to me at a party and takes a drink out of my hand and says "You are done, dear," with a smile and tone that will not be bucked, it touches something deep inside me. She calls it the eternal mother. I don't know exactly what that means, but I know that it feels like her authority is from something more than ourselves.  I even think that those around me feel it. None of my friends has called her a B or teased me about it. They respect her for having the knowledge and the guts to cut me off. One friend said to me, "Wow, your wife knows how to use tough love." And I agree: It's the same authority she uses to swing the paddle, just exhibited verbally and publicly. In those moments, I would do anything she told me to do. I feel her mother power.”

We’ve talked about this before, including a topic on it around this time last year but it didn’t get a ton of response.  Yet, it continues to pop up in comments on various topics.  I also feel like addressing it again, because my own openness to it has increased. 

In the past, I’ve shied away from talking openly about this issue that is plainly a part of some DD dynamics.  It raises all sorts of controversial psychological and social issues.  Oedipal theories.  Corporal punishment’s role in non-adult discipline.  Manliness and sexuality.  It really is a very loaded topic.  

And, not just with respect to discussing it on a blog.  I shied away from it here, and I also never really brought it up with my wife.  At least not directly and forthrightly. Until about a year ago.  We had talked from time to time about particular disciplinary archetypes.  Things like strict teachers and principals.  But, we never really talked about the obvious one – strict mothers.  Then, one night she said something about liking how DD reduces me to a little boy who has to do what he is told.  I think she was tip-toeing around the issue in the same way I have.  The nurturing but strict mother archetype clearly seems to resonate with her in ways that other DD images do not, yet we both find it hard to talk about.

I do think that while there are maternal aspects to my DD desires, it is kind of a secondary factor.  My DD leanings seem to have more to do with needing an authority figure than needing a maternal authority figure.  But, it's complicated.  I do think that my mother's approach to discipline probably was the impetus for some of my later needs in this area. My own mother was very strong-willed in some ways, but it was expressed very erratically.  She seldom made or enforced rules but, at the same time she could be very intimidating and demanding.  But, the expectations and demands never seemed to be tied to an actual consequence.  

I wasn’t really aware of how stressful that was at the time and, in fact, the absence of rules seemed like a great thing.  It was only when I stumbled on the Disciplinary Wives Club in my late 30s that something really clicked.  The descriptions of men having boundaries imposed upon them by strong-willed wives just really got to me deep down inside.  But, I don’t think I consciously associated it with anything maternal.  I really needed someone to set rules and enforce them consistently, but anyone would do if they had sufficient presence and authority to make me feel like I am not the one in command and that punishment is inevitable and resistance futile.  While the "strict mom" archetype serves that role, so could an aunt, teacher, school principal, or any other authoritarian whose power or position was sufficient to make me submit.


Nevertheless, there definitely is some kind of psychological entanglement with my teenage years and the unmet need for discipline at that particular time in life.  Something about that does connect to the maternal force.  As I said when discussing this last year, Anne has talked in positive terms about using DD to reduce me to a "teen-age boy who needs a spanking from his mom."  She also has compared me to a teenager who mischievously pushes buttons just to do it, then is surprised when she actually does something about it.  It's that  roller-coaster ride that is my DD obsession—wanting boundaries when I don’t perceive them and then getting resentful when she suddenly imposes one.  What I am starting to appreciate is it may very well have been my own mother's erratic approach to parenting that put me on that roller-coaster, wanting discipline when it is absent but resenting it once it is imposed. 

There also is not a clear link between my mother and my desires for corporal punishment. While I'm sure she did spank me when I was young (all mothers did at that place and time), I really don't remember any of them, which probably indicates they stopped when I was fairly young.  So, while I probably got a few from her at an early age, a mother taking down my pants for a well-deserved butt blistering following a long run of adolescent bad behavior was not part of my upbringing.  Because I didn't experience that as an older kid, I think part of me now is  perpetually surprised when confronted with a real obstacle, like Anne telling me to do or not do something.  It brings me up short and my first reaction is to resent it, even if it is exactly what I need.  

I've also noticed that part of the attraction I have to spanking drawings that include a maternal vibe is the "getting down to business" demeanor and the sense of inevitability it conveys.  As we have discussed, certainty of punishment and the futility of resistance are big elements of this for me.

So, while I do not think that "maternal" aspects of DD were part of the initial attraction, they are now and it is something I am willing and interested in exploring more openly both with Anne and in this forum. Instead of specifying a question related to all this, I am going to purposefully leave this one more open-ended.  I can’t quite nail down exactly what it is that I would like to explore here, and I’d also like to leave a lot of room for people to bring their own feelings and experiences into this discussion.

Have a great week.

39 comments:

  1. The maternal aspect... well, I do struggle with it a lot. From early age on I had these "maternal vibes". I remember, I was about 14 years old, at a school event, and one teacher said "Tina is so maternal".

    In the year book, when I left high school, my friends wrote about me: "She knows all 5th and 6th graders by name." (in germany high school /"Gymnasium" starts in 5th grade, and goes up to 13th grade. So my friends pointed out that I always took care of the "babies" at our school, which I did.

    When I was 13, my youngest sister was born. And i remember carrying her in my arms and the baby tried to suck on my breasts, which were huge, already at that young age.

    My whole life, even though I never had my own kids, I was always surrounded by little boys. Some young in years, and some older in years but just behaving like little boys :-)

    When I opened my blog, 9 years ago, things got crazy for a while. Many many many men wrote me and picked up on my maternal vibes. And me, I could hardly prevent myself from being the maternal figure they were looking for. They were looking for guidance and boundaries, and I was giving it to them. It was a very exhausting process. Through my blog I counseled a guy who had lost his job and family because he got a felony conviction for downloading child porn, I counseled an alcoholic father who was in danger of losing his family, I counseled a celebrity bodyguard who had a diaper fetish, I counseled a medical doctor who was cheating on his wife, I counseled a professional opera basso singer, who had lost his voice, the list goes on and on and on.

    In a way, it was very fulfilling for me, because I had something that the guys wanted. And I could make a real difference in peoples life. But the flip side was: the guys did not see me as a woman with own needs and wants, they saw me as that big mother figure.

    Therefore, in my own relationship with Gregory, I tried to completely suppress my maternal vibes for a while. I wanted him to see me as a woman and now wife, and not as a mother figure.

    In a way, my experience is: it is hard to be a "mother figure" and a wife at the same time to the same guy.

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    1. Thanks, Tina. Your account of how the men who read your blog engaged is, I think all too common. It's one reason we have so few disciplinary wives blogging about this lifestyle. I've seen several of them start, then in swarms the "I know you're married, but would you consider spanking my naughty bottom . . ." crowd. I suppose I should also be a little offended. In six years with this blog, no one has ever asked to spank me. ;-)

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  2. This is Elizabeth. Like many women, I feel somewhat conflicted about acting maternal towards my husband. After all, I married him to be his wife, not his mother. When engaging in domestic discipline, there seems to always be a maternal factor when a wife is punishing her husband. And my Frank certainly acts like a naughty little boy when he is being paddled. But I don't want him to act that way the rest of the week. Fortunately, he doesn't. If he did, I would probably stop the domestic discipline.

    I have come to believe that this eternal mother is part of the female psyche. So that I can express the Eeternal mother when I am being maternal towards my husband, without expressing HIS mother. For me that is an important distinction. I am not his mother, I am his wife. But I am the eternal mother in terms of wisdom and authority - and punishment in the case of domestic discipline.

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    1. "So that I can express the Eternal mother when I am being maternal towards my husband, without expressing HIS mother."

      Very nicely put. Thanks, Elizabeth.

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  3. Dan
    Love how Elizabeth stated that. After discipline with Peter, when he cuddles up in my arms, it does arouse my maternal instincts. It reminds me of spanking one of our boys when they were young. How after my sons would hug me and tell me how sorry they were. When grown man perform like little naughty boys they need both the
    discipline and after the forgiving embraces.
    Anna

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    1. Thanks, Anna. We don't really do the "forgiving embraces" per se, but I see how those could have a maternal element.

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    2. Dan
      Those embraces have to be earned of course!
      anna

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  4. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  5. This is Elizabeth's Frank. I am not at all concerned with the maternal aspect of the punishment I receive from Elizabeth. It is very clear to me that she is my disciplinary wife, and not my mother. I was spanked by my mother, but the spankings are so different that there is no way I can confuse them. Here are some of the differences

    1. spankings from Elizabeth I have agreed to whereas the ones from my mother were forced on me.
    2. I was afraid of my mother and I am not afraid of my wife.
    3. That is true even though the spankings from my wife are much more severe than anything I received from my mother.
    4. my mother's spankings were always over the knee, while Elizabeth almost never uses that position.
    5. My mother used her hand or small implements like a wooden spoon, while Elizabeth uses larger and longer implements like a school paddle and a strap.
    6. I am aroused before and after spankings from my wife though the severity removes the arousal during the spanking. I was never aroused by spankings from my mother.
    7. My mother's spankings were never with me naked. I always strip for Elizabeth.


    There are some ways in which the spankings are similar. They both were or are about misbehavior and designed to improve my behavior.
    There is a significant degree of scolding that goes along with both. And I feel like a naughty little boy with both. But I am very clear that Elizabeth is my disciplinary wife, and I like it that way.

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    1. Thanks, Frank. That is a great list of distinctions. I admit that part of my attraction to DD (the fantasy, not the reality) runs counter to the first two on your list. Taking them in reverse order, I actually do think it is good for me to have a "healthy fear" of my wife in this lifestyle, or at least of what she can/will do to my ass in appropriate circumstances. As for agreement, I obviously did agree to this lifestyle and, moreover, initiated it. But, part of me always wishes it had been less consensual and more imposed.

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  6. In our relationship, the maternal presence is minimal if at all. She was a mother and a school teacher, so discipline is not foreign to her at all. She seems to use the more adult system. Using your example of taking a drink out of my hand at a party or function, that would never happen. She would instead suggest (direct) that should be my last one. If I choose to have another, no additional comments from her would occur. Sort of saying, 'you (me) know better as an adult and act accordingly' and I fully realize a sound spanking will be administered when we get home. So rather than the teenage boy discipline, she expects me to act as an adult, knowing the rules and realizing the due consequence of breaking them.

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    1. I don't think my wife has ever taken a drink out of my hand at a party, but she has told me not to have another one. At the time, I really resent it. But, the next morning I am grateful.

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  7. I am reluctant to weigh in but I will try to tread carefully. I have had this conversation many times, here, on my own blog, and elsewhere.....even in RL conversations, and the one thing that needs to be clear at the outset is the word itself: maternal. And since I know how unpopular these attempts at linguistic precision are, rather than present what I have personally come to believe defines the word 'maternal', here's an online definition I found for the form being discussed here:

    >>>>denoting feelings associated with or typical of a mother; motherly.
    "maternal instincts"
    synonyms: motherly, maternalistic; protective, caring, nurturing, loving, devoted, affectionate, fond, warm, tender, gentle, kind, kindly, comforting, compassionate
    "the baby aroused her maternal instincts" <<<<<<<<<<

    There are two interesting points one can get from this. One... which was why I searched out a definition in the first place.....was to show that the word describes perceived qualities but does not denote actually BEING a mother. It is no different than using the word 'serpentine' to describe something that appears in some way 'snakelike' without it having to actually BE a snake.

    The second thing was something I noticed only after pulling this up that made me think: look at the synonyms offered. No inclusion of any of the qualities of authority, or discipline that are prevalent in our discussions! All are tender, nurturing words.

    What this means to me is that 'maternal' is a pretty subjective adjective, BUT still very much an adjective. Meaning being 'maternal' means having attributes one perceives as being associated with a mother, even if they are geared towards other aspects besides gentleness. But as an adjective, no one really needs to worry so much about having to vehemently express not wanting to have or be a mother. It's a description of some, and not even all, 'feelings' one has or gets from someone, not an official role or title.

    All that said, I sometimes find Rosa's role to be maternal in some ways but not others, so in essence I can say she can appear 'maternal' without having to worry that she's becoming a surrogate mother. So I can sort of admit that at times our DD manifests itself in a way that feels maternal.....without having to quickly assure everyone that I DON'T feel that way while we're fucking. LOL

    I wonder what it is about the mother angle that hits people in this way? It has always seemed that some people will recognize the maternal overtones and embrace them as somewhat natural, and perhaps even emotionally satisfying and desirable, while others will recognize them and staunchly separate themselves from any connection to a 'mother figure' as if that was the worst thing possible, or a sign of some inappropriate correlation. And of course, you have folks who feel a little bit of both.

    I would love to see some well-executed psyche profile done of people in both camps to discover if there is some pattern to these reactions.

    Another thing I found interesting was that having drinks controlled in some way plays a part for at least three of the guys commenting. The only time the threat of discipline has come into play for me with regards to alcohol is when Rosa or even Marta tease me that I have failed to notice their glasses were empty and not promptly refilled them. ;-)

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    1. It *is* interesting that none of the listed synonyms have a "tough love" vibe. Of course, dictionary definitions are themselves written by some actual human being or committee of human beings. I guess the ones who wrote this particular definition did not have a DD bent. ;-)

      I am speculating a little, but there are probably at least three reasons that people tip-toe around this issue or, as you said, tread carefully. First, there is at least a potential Oedipal connotation whenever you bring motherhood into a discussion of something with sexual overtones such as DD. It's why you offer that quick assurance that even if your feelings toward Rosa maternal at times, when you are having sex is NOT one of those times. While I am in no place to judge, I admit that it took me a very long time to get comfortable with the "Daddy" dynamic you see in many M/f DD and D/s relationships. It is really hard for me not to read sexual overtones into that, even if that is not how it is meant by the participants.

      Second, there is the issue Elizabeth alludes to -- women usually want a strong man for a husband, not a little boy. Expressing the maternal aspect or acknowledging that DD may bring out his "little boy" at least potentially conflicts with that tough, manly archetypal image.

      Third, modern attitudes toward corporal punishment have changed, such that some believe it is inherently abusive even for (maybe especially for?) adolescents. So, linking this thing we do to memories or fantasies of childhood discipline is disturbing for some. I admit, it gave me pause to use some of the drawings in this post for that reason.

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    2. Oh, and I should add, your reference to failing to refill a glass brought back images of an office party a few years ago in which I observed one of our female employees basically ordering her husband to get her a new drink from the bar. I am convinced there was a more or less expressly D/s dynamic between them, which was interesting not just because I knew them but also because she was pretty young. It is not that typical to see a younger woman with that kind of confidence.

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    3. This is Elizabeth. I do think that the Oedipal concern is very real with couples where there are maternal and sexual components in their DD. It never ceases to amaze me how rock hard Frank gets while undressing for punishment, knowing the pain he is about to receive (he is no madochist). If he were in that moment fantasizing about his mother punishing him, I think both of us would be concerned. But he is not. He is anticipating punishment from ME, his disciplinary wife.

      I have asked him what turns him on about our punishment ritual, and he says he can't explain it. But I think it has to do with intimacy and vulnerability. This strong man who seldom shows any vulnerability is baring all (literally, figuratively, emotionally, spiritually) to the person he loves the most and who loves him the most. And revealing vulnerability can get sexualized in many people as the ultimate form of intimacy. This is not Oedipal, in my opinion, even though I am imparting maternal authority and he is in the position of a naughty boy.

      I on the other hand do not get turned on at all by punishing my husband, though I can be excited to see him naked and rock hard and "at my disposal." And our gentle cuddling aftercare can be exciting. But I do not at all enjoy imparting pain to my husband, and any excitement I may have felt dissipated quickly. I see it more as a wifely duty responding to his request for punishment.

      I did look up maternal in the dictionary and found this usage as an example: "Her maternal instincts told her something was wrong." To me this does imply a sense of authority, as she is likely to take action from her instincts.

      I don't know how real the Oedipal complex is, or whether Freud (and Sophocles) were off their rocker. But I do think the fear of it is very real in our culture, and the main reason for the concern about maternal domestic discipline.



      Plus this is a man who has been excited by spanking pictures and stories since before puberty.

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    4. Hi Elizabeth. I share your husband's physical reaction and, like him, I have no real explanation for it. Unlike your husband, I did not have any pre-adult attraction to spanking. I don't recall having any sexualized interest in it until well into my 30s. And, when I discovered the Disciplinary Wives Club, I did get *extremely* stimulated, but I am positive the disciplinary aspect drove most of the excitement, not the spanking, because I had read spanking fiction and seen adult spanking content and, while like a lot of kink it was a turn on, it was very, very mild compared to my reaction to the DWC content. Further, that DWC content truly did scare the hell out of me. You say, "It never ceases to amaze me how rock hard Frank gets while undressing for punishment, knowing the pain he is about to receive (he is no madochist)." My reaction to the DWC amazed me in the same way. Almost 15 years later, I still remember my near-constant state of arousal from the day I discovered it, then told my wife about, through to me first spanking a few days later. It was like nothing I have experienced before or since.

      Today, I don't get as aroused, and recently there are times I am barely hard at all right before a spanking. But, age may have as much to do with that as familiarity.

      Like you, I have some healthy skepticism regarding Freud, including the whole Oedipal complex. I have a lot of feelings for my mother, but sexual desire is not one of them, sublimated or not. And, while I do have a thing for authority, as I said in this post, it is really about anyone with authority to actually *make* me do something I genuinely do not want to do.

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  8. Early on, before we got married, Shilo would occasionally refer to me at "Mommy", and I've had other men tell me that I'm very maternal when it comes to discipline and actions.

    I tend to embrace it, because it is a part of who I am.

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  9. From time to time, I reflect on when I was severely scolded for about 10 minutes by a grade school principal for doing something that was fun for me but potentially dangerous for me as well (allowing a school bus to pull me along on an icy parking lot as I held the back of it). She was a kindly woman with a motherly concern for my safety, I am sure. And I was fond of her. As I think back today over the incident, I wish she had given me a sound spanking for my foolish behavior, and I suspect she wished at the time that the school’s disciplinary rules permitted it, but didn’t. I might even have preferred that at the time – probably lasting no more than a minute -- to the ten minute scolding I experienced, but I was not given a choice.

    While, today, I appreciate the fact that my wife gives me regular spankings, I do think of them as being erotic, albeit intense, but never think of them as being maternal. Perhaps, if they were punishment spankings, I might view some of them as maternal. You have raised an interesting but complex topic, Dan.

    Doug

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    1. Doug,
      I got paddled at school for such experiences, and I hated it and feared my teachers (each of whom had a paddle in their classroom, though the female principal paddled the most), which was no way to get an education. But when I got older I found myself masturbating to those experiences and craving them again.

      Now my disciplinary wife is my "school principal" and my fantasies are realized. Our school-style paddle hangs in our bedroom closet, and I see it every morning as I dress for work as a reminder to behave that day.
      Frank

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  10. This is Elizabeth. Bear with me as I talk about paternal as well as maternal.

    I want my husband to be the traditional big strong protector ... and also be a gentleman. Sometimes that is a tall order, particularly if we take "gentle man" literally. I am asking a lot of him! And much of what I punish him for is not being as polite - gentlemanly - as I know he can be.

    He never falters as the protector, a role that can be quite paternal. For instance, he has forbid me from being on a ladder, as I sometimes feel dizzy from heights. In his insistence he is acting quite paternal - but I appreciate his protectiveness ... and never think of him as my father.

    Similarly, when I am punishing him I am acting maternal, but not as his mother.

    The conflict I sometimes feel is not so much my role as his. When I am thrashing his behind, he is not my protector. He is a naughty little boy getting a scolding and a spanking. I have to remind myself that I am helping him be a better MAN even when I am treating him like a little boy. Mostly I am making him more gentlemanly so he can overcome the inherent conflict of being a fearsome protector and a gentleman at the same time. I love my husband!

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    1. Hi Elizabeth. While I can't experience it from your side of the paddle, I think I understand where you are coming from. My worst traits are really extensions of my more admirable ones. Fearlessness and being fearsome can, when taken too far, become reckless and overbearing. We can't always moderate it ourselves and will cross that line. When we do, women like you and my Anne are there to put us back where we need to be.

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  11. This is Elizabeth's Frank. I think my wife's concern expressed above is the main reason we practice domestic discipline just one hour a week. For that hour I am not her big strong protector. You might find me howling, whimpering, begging, promising, and apologizing under the power of her strong right arm. However, for the other 167 hours in the week I am her protector, with a rifle in my truck and a baseball bat in the closet by the front door. And somehow in some way I cannot explain, that one hour of her punishment helps me be the strong husband she needs me to be the rest of the week. I am a much more attentive protector in the 14 years she has been spanking me than I was in the 25 years before. I love my wife, and I am grateful she agreed to domestic discipline when I asked her.

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    1. That is a great point, Frank. While sometimes we crave a more "24x7" dynamic, it might disturb a more "traditional" dynamic that otherwise works for both parties.

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    2. This is pretty much what my wife and I do. We don't want a 24x7 dynamic and her feelings are adult-female, rather than maternal, as we have always aspired for me to be the sort of husband described by frank.

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  12. I'm just going to chime in to say that while I was all man for my amazing wife, I was incredibly uplifted by the maternal aspect to the way she took care of me and helped me develop as a person. She was fiercely protective but never even slightly smothering.

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    1. A great balance that you both achieved!

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    2. Tomy,
      We are another one of those couples who has been very private about our DD but read the DWC site regularly and gleaned much advice from it. Now I wish we had made contact with Aunt Kay to thank her. We thank you instead.
      Elizabeth and Frank

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    3. Tomy, I remember the time I discovered The DWC site of yours, around 2000. I wrote an email to her, a short mail but her answer enlighnined my cloudy way of living! Thank you.

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  13. As I have shared on here before for the last few years I have indulged in the use of professional female disciplinarian's (about once every 6 months). The most satisfying experience (although all were good) was when I role-played the son to the old fashioned "mom" (yes she was American). It was a scene, with howling and a tantrum, that allowed a release I struggle to find anywhere else. This I suspect is a maternal thing I uncorked as well as something that takes the threshold well beyond what Mrs GL can deliver. The after-care was very maternal also and something I'd wish into my home arrangements in an instant. Cheers Good Life Mickey.

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    1. It’s very interesting that you did that kind of scene and then it “uncorked” all that for you.

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    2. Yes. I was there to see what accrued and it accrued a lot. So much so I an a touch inhibited from repeating it just in case it is not as good. Cheers Good Life Mickey

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    3. Honestly, it probably wouldn't be. Few things are.

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  14. Mickey - My two cents is to trust your instincts about that.

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  15. Elizabeth and Frank with a possible topic:
    For the husbands who initiated DD (most of us):
    How exactly did you approach your wife/partner? What did you say? How did you work up the courage? How long did it take you?
    And what was her initial reaction? Did it change? How long until your first spanking? Was it all you expected it to be?
    For wives who were approached: How did your husband approach you? What was your initial reaction? Did it change? How did you decide to spank him? What was that first spanking like? How did you feel?
    And for those where the husband did not initiate: Tell your story!

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    1. all good questions here:but probably a good half dozen topics

      Alan

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    2. Hi Elizabeth and Frank. While we've done those "origin" topics frequently, I personally never tire of them. So, I'll tee yours up as a topic in the near future.

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