Saturday, January 26, 2019

The Club - Meeting 282 - When DD Works and When it Does Not


“Any fool can learn from experience. It’s better to learn from the experience of others.” - Bismarck

Hello all. Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships.  I hope you had a good week.

Mine was exhausting on all sorts of levels.  Travel, churn and change at work, and fighting off some nasty bug.  That relaxing vacation over the holidays already seems a distant memory.  It was also an exhausting week from the perspective of my seemingly unbreakable interest in politics.  First, there was all the shutdown drama.  I really thought that I might find a cartoon this morning of Nancy Pelosi spanking Donald Trump, but no luck.  And, regardless of the party at fault, the phenomenon of political amnesia in Washington is fascinating.  Shutdowns always blow up on the party that instigates them.  Every single one of them has failed.  And, they should.  Rewarding hostage takers just is not a wise strategy in the long run.  Yet, somehow those pulling the strings convince themselves that "this time" will be the exception.  

On the other side of the political spectrum (and to show I really am an equal opportunity hypocrisy hater) was the viral explosion around the Covington high school boys’ trip to Washington.  I began last weekend wanting to kill the kid in the video, then when I saw the much longer clip, it was crystal clear that the initial reporting was not just wrong; it was utterly and completely false and manipulated.  Worse, as the week went on and it became more and more clear that the initial clip was utterly misleading, the more leftist reporters and news organizations began to, in essence, insist that everyone should take the narrative of one of the participants as gospel just because he said it, even though it was utterly contradicted by what the video actually showed.  "Believe him, not your own eyes and ears."  It was truly something straight out of Orwell’s 1984.  I never thought I would find myself uttering the phrase “fake news,” but this week was a huge black eye for the media in this country.  But, before the right wingers get all fired up and self-righteous,  the “failing New York Times” was actually one of the first to start openly questioning the initial video and laying out a more balanced picture, and some of the network news organizations quickly started questioning the initial narrative.  It was eventually reported that the misleading initial clip came from a fake Twitter account that was fairly quickly suspended.  But, this all really does leave me thinking I need to install one of those apps that allows me only a few minutes of internet surfing a day then blocks my access to certain venues, like pretty much all US news outlets.

  
Well, now that I’ve gotten that little rant out of my system, let’s turn to this week’s topic.  Elizabeth suggested it, and it is the following:

What specific behaviors have you been spanked for where it worked and you changed the behavior?

What specific behaviors have you been spanked for where you have yet to change the behavior?

And what is your explanation for why spanking has worked for some and not others?

I’ll go first.  I would never claim that DD has been remotely close to a cure-all for my behavioral “issues.”  I think there also is a subtle distinction to be made in Elizabeth’s first question between when it has “worked” and when it has “changed” the behavior.  I think in many cases it may not have changed the behavior, but it still “worked” from my wife’s perspective because it gave her a very concrete way of expressing her dissatisfaction with the behavior.


Where I think it has been more effective is on things that are rooted in simply failing to pay attention and failing to follow through. I have related before that one turning point in our DD relationship was when she spanked me good and hard for failing to clean a rice cooker after dinner, after I had failed repeatedly to do that.  It was a turning point because it was one of the first times she addressed something that was just plain sloppiness on my part.  There have been a time or two since that I forgot to do it, but I always caught myself and corrected it before she saw it.  

 

I think it also has had some impact on my temper, or at least my expression of it.  There have been a few times that I got very irritated with one of the kids over something and said something that was overly curt.  She has, rightly so, taken me to task for that.  I think doing so has both cut down on the number of times it has happened and also made me more open to quickly seeing the error of my ways and apologizing without digging  stubbornly into my position.  And, while I think I am probably just as prone to be disrespectful at times, I do think that the threat of a session has give her an ability to cut it off much more quickly.

Where I don’t think it has worked as well is deeply ingrained habits, especially those that have some biological or chemical basis, and hard-wired personality traits. We can set rules on drinking limits over and over, but the plain fact is it has been part of my social life since high school, it is an overwhelmingly prevalent social tool in my profession, and my body and mind seem to be wired such that the second I have a single drink, I simply forget that we did, in fact, set a limit.  And, I truly mean “forget” in the literal sense.  After the first drink is the delivered and the conversation starts, the threat of a spanking or other punishment simply does not enter my mind.  But, there is a small caveat here: on the few times that she has tried giving a "prophylactic" or "reminder" spanking, i.e. a spanking that comes immediately before a party or event where I might be tempted to over-indulge, that did seem to stay with me and remind of what I could expect if I got out of line.

Somewhere in the middle are things like work-related behaviors and, to some extent, the respect thing.  I think on the latter in particular, Anne just needs to take a much stricter approach when I roll my eyes, don't pay attention when she is talking to me, or otherwise fail to give her the respect she deserves.  It's clearly an issue for her, but also one I think she could fix with a little more diligence and consistent severity. 

I think it is hard for most wives to be diligent about things that don’t have a direct, personal impact on them, like their husband’s self-improvement goals (weight, exercise, etc.) and things that happen at work.  And, there are things they may care about, but not enough to get and stay really diligent and unforgiving about applying DD to the situation. But there are wives who are exceptions in that regard.


 It is in that context that I found one of ZM’s comments from last week really interesting.  His wife has been imposing a “boot camp” of sorts, in which he is held to stricter standards where his performance in various areas is concerned.  He missed a couple of goals because the week turned out to be unusually busy, and had those goals not slipped, he might have missed others. But, she stayed resolute.  As he described it in his comment:

“However, she has said that even though it might seem a little unfair, and even though she recognizes that the week was busier than planned, it would have still been possible to complete the tasks. She said that she thinks it is better to aim for consistency and since she said that not completing the tasks will result in punishment, then she wants to ensure it happens that way. I really love her newfound resolve; this is exactly the firmness I have been wanting/needing all my life.”

Those kinds of experiences are why I insist a “real” DD relationship has to involve work by both parties and why I am so dismissive of the “if you don’t obey all the rules then it’s just a game” comments.  DD is not going to work in every situation.  It just won’t.  But, it is more likely to work when there is real surrender on the recipient’s part and real diligence and consistency on the part of the disciplinarian.

I hope you have a great week.

38 comments:

  1. I know this is minor and insignificant but I frequently got spanked for my language. No , I wasn’t crude or vulgar but Dev hates the word “ ain’t “ . I showed her in the dictionary that it was a valid word. She said it makes me sound uneducated. The first spanking wasn’t that bad. In fact I was s little belligerent. They became more frequent , longer and harder. I finally conceded defeat a while ago. ( ain’t that a bitch ). JR

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    1. At the risk of arguing with your wife, I think "ain't" is perfectly acceptable!

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  2. Dan, I think your last paragraph is very important and says it all. A DD will not work well without real planning and work by both parties. We worked together on lists before we began and I feel it has worked. I am committed to my role and serving her and she has been resolute in providing discipline when needed and maintenance to keep things rolling. She does not like to punish, but make no mistake she will administer it coodly and effectively when she deems it necessary. As far as the 3 questions from Elizabeth at the beginning of you post, I offer the following. Being spanked for foul language has worked on our relationship and I have truly cut way down on my cussing. I admit, it took more than a few harsh spankings about language to curb my foul mouth, but is is working. On the second question, most of the repeat spanking here are for my forgetfulness. No matter what the chore, sometimes I forget. For repeat offenses, punishments are increased and as a result, my behavior has not improved to the point I will not forget. Third question.....I have no idea why spanking has worked for some of my faults and not others. Great topic this week.
    cowboy

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  3. Regarding jumping on the blame bandwagon toward the Catholic school student - it was a blessing in disguise. Left, Right, or In-Between, everyone needs to "respond" rather than "react" to information that comes in. React is like unconsciously swatting at a mosquito that has landed on you. Respond is about inserting intelligent thought - even if that only means asking one's self "is it so?" before acting (or believing).

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    1. Respond, and also think critically before doing so, considering the possibility that what is being presented may or may not be "true." It really did give me pause, and cause me to think about pausing much longer, before taking any position on anything.

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  4. Dan
    The major changes that discipline from Anna has brought about are no cell phones allowed at meals. I no longer do that. Canings have broken me of smoking completely. The cane has also lessened but not eliminated using foul language in the home. The same goes for drinking,
    The one area that I have been least successful in is controlling my temper. As a matter of fact i am standing at the counter in the kitchen. Anna reminded me about temper and about arguing and calling my neighbor well
    insert here whatever you think i may have said.
    Even when we fail i more and more believe as much as i don't want a sore ass, i know i need and perhaps that is why i get in trouble.
    Peter

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    1. Hi Peter. It is great that it has helped you lessen some biggies, including drinking. Temper is probably one of the harder ones for many of us, since almost by definition it flares so quickly.

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  5. This is Elizabeth's Frank. Over more than a decade, there have been many behaviors which Elizabeth's paddle has helped me change. Some of them that I can think of right now are swearing in front of family members, being late to pick up the kids from activities, speeding, not helping with chores around the house, being somewhat rude to Elizabeth, not being polite to some of the family members on her side that I don't particularly care for, doing chores on time.

    The situations where there has been repeated punishment tend to be about my forgetfulness, but even in those situations there could be some dispute about their effectiveness. That is, I think it's pretty effective when I do dishes 300 times a year, and forget maybe 10 times. But on the other hand, you could say that being spanked 10 times in a year for the same thing is a failure. I'm not sure what Elizabeth thinks about that. The same is true for my socks. When I come home, my feet tend to hurt and so I take off my shoes and I usually take off my socks as well. If I put my socks in my shoes, it's okay, but if I don't and they wind up on the floor somewhere, I get paddled for it. I used to always leave my socks on the floor, now I rarely do, but again it might be 10 times a year. So is that success or not? In other words, I don't meet the standard every time but I do the vast majority of the time.

    I really can't think of a behavior where Elizabeth's paddle hasn't helped me make improvements. As was mentioned a few weeks ago, the behavior I have asked her to address most recently is swearing at work, which I tend to do a lot. Now I keep track and report to her every Friday evening. There has yet to be a Friday where I haven't been spanked for swearing at work, but on the other hand I have probably reduce my swearing at work by about 80%. So once again, the question is whether that is success. To me I think that such an improvement is a measure of success. But is it where I want to be? Not yet. But I am confident this Elizabeth strong right arm will help me get there. Frank

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    1. "That is, I think it's pretty effective when I do dishes 300 times a year, and forget maybe 10 times."

      That is a really great answer to those that say that if an offense is repeated, then DD must not really work. Thanks, Frank.

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  6. For me it has not "elminated" any behaviors but have made them less frequent (on the scale of daily to a couple times a year).
    I am differant from previous posts in that it really has helped me to display my temper less. I still get mad but I dont start yelling and expressing it in unhealthy ways. When I do there are consequenses.
    I cannot think of any area we tried it has not helped some, but what we are trying is limited to behaviors I really do want to change.

    To shift a little though, we have changed some recently to her taking some initiative on behaviors she wants me to change. Still early so we shall see. But one is I cannot leave the house angry and not tell her where I am going and when to expect me back. Only happened twice since the rule was made. The first was a fair but not overly hard spanking and the second was three days of getting up an hour early and standing in timeout for an hour...which depending on the day I would rather have the spanking...and she knows that.

    Regarding your rant at the beginning. I have found it fun to talk to friends who are not on social media. Their perspective on life is much calmer. It has to last at least 3 or 4 news cycles before they start caring about it. Most of our day-to-day crap does not. That goes for both sides.

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    1. "I cannot leave the house angry and not tell her where I am going and when to expect me back." This is what I call "flouncing," which my wife used to do when we would have a serious argument. Since getting into DD and with her having the ability to terminate arguments on her terms, I think it has happened only once in several years. So, funny that DD solves the problem regardless of which end of the paddle you are on.

      Regarding the rant, interestingly in this particular case, many of my more liberal social media friends started out like me and wanted to string up the student with the "smirk." But, almost all of them instantly backed off or changed that position after the saw the longer clips. In this case, it was the professionals in the media who kept pushing an angle that was clearly misleading and just plain false.

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  7. My relatively mild regime allows me to have a window of opportunity to feel chilled and stress free. The problem is that window has an average length of 3 days before the stress and grumpy returns. In my mind if Mrs GL wants that to extend to up 7 days she needs to spank harder, longer and more often :-). Cheers GLM

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  8. Let's be honest, I might be inclined to enter in to such an arrangement but that would be more because of my kink than using it control habits.

    We are adults, not willful boys trying to hurt our mates. Check out "Atomic Habits" by James Clear, (best and most practical of the current crop of 'habits' books).

    That said, there was that threatened me with a beating now and again...

    clev_Tom

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    1. Hmm. Not sure what any of this has to do with anything . . . but . . . whatever

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  9. I have stropped smoking, limited my drinking , and corrected many bad habits as a result of DD. I still screw up losing my temper occasionally saying things I know were not thoughtful, but when I do I get a punishing paddling, and try not to do it again. I am much more conscious of not repeating that behavior, at least for a long time after the spanking is over. I think DD works only if the husband wants to change and improve. I also believe the spanking must be a very painful event or the behavior won't improve. I don't enjoy being paddled one bit, but when I screw up I need that paddling to pay a price for my misbehavior and feel better about myself for having taken it. It ends the friction between us and balances the power in our relationship. After 30 years we still carry on as we both believe our marriage is all the better for having DD inour lives.

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  10. This is Elizabeth. It is interesting to me that DD has worked for some of you for smoking and drinking. I would think that addiction would be an area resistant to corporal punishment, as it is to most forms of "treatment."

    Regarding Frank's comments, I agree that a 90+ percent success rate such as with dishes means that my paddle is effective. At the same time, he will get spanked each and every time he forgets! And I am sure that is why he does the dishes 300 times a year!

    With such a success rate, I do not increase the punishment as I would for a behavior I am trying to completely stop. For years now he has gotten 10 swats for the dishes ... unless we are having company or some other extenuating circumstance.

    We did have one issue where he was really resistant and I am surprised he did not mention it: coming home late without calling. This was a biggie for me, but it kept happening and I kept increasing the punishment until he was getting more than a hundred swats just for that issue, and his bottom was black and blue from one week to the next. Finally he admitted that he was embarrassed to have to stop whatever he was doing at work and make a phone call to tell me that he was going to be late. He didn't want his co-workers to see him doing that. He saw it as a sign that he was "whipped." Which he was literally! I told him I didn't care whether he was embarrassed to do it, that he needed to do it anyway. I think that was the one issue were we had our greatest disagreement about the use of domestic discipline. But I held firm and swung hard, and eventually he capitulated. Now he calls me each and every time he is going to be late. And I am a happy wife!
    Elizabeth

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    1. Hi Elizabeth. I wonder if the reason DD works for some addictions for some people comes down to whether the recipient also wants the change, and DD is just giving them that extra incentive?

      Isn't it interesting how much we want our wives to be in charge but don't want anyone to know we want our wives to be in charge?

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    2. Hi Dan, Elizabeth and everyone here. In our case, I completely stop drinking 3 years ago. It was not because our mutual DD agreement. It was because her sadness. So ,it worked ! I can assure you she is a terrific spanker, and me too ! But her fear of alcohol really did the trick. So I just stopped ! Please excuse me for my bad English, we're French Fan of your very good work since the beginning. Her name is Gourmandine, mine is Courandair . Thank tou for creating this great place. French kisses to everyone !

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    3. Yes, Dan, you are right. Now he sneaks into the bathroom and calls me on his cell. He hated when he had to use the office phone before we hot cells! But he doesn't seem to mind when I cut him off alcohol very publicly at a party. So what is that about? When he's drinking too much and being a "bad boy" he doesn't mind me being bossy ... but when he is at work being a "good boy" doing his job, he does mind it? Hmmm ... what do you all think?

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    4. On the addiction comment...everything is resistant to addiction. Addiction is about changing the cravings of the brain. Depending on the addiction it could be chemical or just some crossed wires. DD is able to help some people. I know in my case it has, but I also WANT TO CHANGE. This have given an outlet for both consequences and some differant chemicals in the brain in response se to the spanking.
      With that said everybody is differant. Mine has been coupled with religious convictions and therapy. However, me and my wife agree that introducing boundaries and discipline via DD has made what I want to do actually a reality.

      Just my 2 cents.

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    5. Elizabeth, that is an odd dynamic. Maybe it is that being told not to be bad when you are, in fact, being bad is not as humbling. It is kind of a one-time thing in which you are doing something you know is wrong and your "better half" lets you know she is frustrated by it. It's not all that outside the norm. Checking in at work when you are not being bad signals a larger power shifting dynamic in which you are subservient to that "better half." I think it sends a very different, and more hierarchical, message.

      SR, good observations. Addiction and habits are just hard in general. And, also unpredictable. I was terribly addicted to cigarettes and tried over and over again to quit. Then, one day, I just went cold turkey and haven't had another one in 25 years. I woke up and just somehow knew that if I quit that day, I could do it. I have no idea why I was able to quit that day but failed in every previous effort.

      Anonymous, welcome.

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    6. Dan, regarding you and the alcohol: I dont understand at all what you are doing. I mean: If your wife is ok with you drinking as much as you do, and when you enjoy doing it, where is the problem? Keep doing it.

      The situation is completely different though when your wife wants you to not drink or only have a few drinks and you ignore her orders/wishes over and over again.

      Ferns from Australia once wrote that she says to her subs: “All you have to do to break the D/s dynamic is say ‘No’. That’s it. Say ‘No’, and keep saying ‘No’, and you will break it.” You dont say it, but your actions speak louder than words. You just dont do it. So my question is: why are you intentionally destroying your wife`s efforts to give you what you want, namely boundaries?

      I assume that you are not actually addicted to alcohol. I mean: no 12 step program needed. But when it is only a habit, a social thing, something you enjoy, something you are used to, why do you even pretend to hand over control to your wife when you obviously dont wanna end that habit and actually keep all control to yourself? I really dont understand what you are doing here.

      Either you are really addicted to the alcohol, which I hope you are not. Or drinking alcohol is just like any other bad habit that you wanna break.

      What makes it so impossible to submit to her when it comes to alcohol?

      Oh and as for your argument of: I need to drink alcohol to connect with the colleagues/customers etc: Trump has become president without drinking alcohol, and Pence is VP and allegedly only drinks when his wife is around. You might think of these people what you want..., but they are proof that your business success is not linked to your ability to drink alcohol.

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    7. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Sorry if I overstepped a line.

      I would give you better names than Trump or Pence, but we dont have common friends that I could name. Do you really think that your business success depends on drinking with the colleagues/customers? If so, that´s interesting to me. I thought these times are over. Maybe it is different for you as a man. For me , as a woman, it is super easy not to drink at all.

      One point I wanted to make, but obviously did not make is: From a female point of view, from my point of view, there is nothing more heartbreaking and hurting than being told "take control" and then the guy does not actually give me control. It has happened many times to me. And every incident is engraved in my memory. I have told guys to do something and they did not do it, did not obey. It is a terrible feeling for me. Sucks the energy out of me. Makes me feel small and worthless.

      To quote Ferns again: D/s takes two people. As a dominant, I CANNOT be second guessing whether he will do what I want or not, I need to trust him to submit. If I can’t trust him, it leads to a headspace that looks like this:

      “Should I ask him to get me some water? What if he says ‘no’? He looks pretty comfortable, maybe he won’t want to get up. Ahhh, he’ll say ‘yes’, I’m sure he will. Maybe he won’t… what if he doesn’t. Ahh, hell, I’ll just get it myself, I don’t want to fight about it.”

      Soon, she is not dominating him anymore, she is just getting him to do things that she hopes he won’t mind doing. He then wonders what happened to the fearless Domme he used to adore and she wonders what happened to her lovely submissive.

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    8. Your comment is really a variant on the "this must be a game, because if you were really submissive you'd just do as you're told" comments that I get from time to time. The most recent treatment of them is probably in this fairly recent post: https://disciplinedhubbies.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-club-meeting-270-bad-habits.html. To recap a bit. First, at the most simplistic, I think they confuse DD with Femdom and D/s. Second, and relatedly, I don't claim to be a submissive, so the comment about breaking the D/s dynamic doesn't really fit my situation. Third, if boundaries are something that one can impose on themselves, then they are really pretty unnecessary, right? The whole point of DD is having boundaries enforced and/or imposed. If I could control it easily by myself, then I probably would. This is, to me, one of the many distinctions between "submitting" on the one hand, and being a "disciplined husband" on the other. There are obviously overlaps but they aren't the same thing.

      As for Trump and Pence, let's keep a few facts in mind. Pence was a largely unsuccessful and unpopular governor, who joined the Trump campaign because he was one of the few conservatives willing to associate his "brand" with Trump at that stage. And, because his own brand was pretty tarnished, there was nowhere but to go but up. His relationship with his wife also seems very weird on all sorts of levels as does his approach to temptation in general, since he also claims not to meet with women without his wife present. Could he be a slave in a Femdom relationship? Possibly, though he seems far too timid and rigid for anything like that. Also, since his wife recently got a lot of bad press for agreeing to teach at a school that does not admit gays, kink definitely does not seem to be their thing. Though, you never know with those buttoned down conservatives. Still waters run deep, as does hypocrisy. Perhaps he has all the rules about drinking and not being away from his wife because deep down inside he wants to do all sorts of freaky things but lacks self-control? Hard to imagine, and a pretty disturbing visual.

      As for Trump's business success, to use a baseball metaphor, don't confuse being born on third-base with hitting a home run. Trump was born into an incredibly wealthy family. His father funneled him over $300 million. https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/10/06/donald-trumps-inheritance. Yet, despite being raised with such extreme privilege and with all the real estate learning one would think he got from his rich, real estate developer father, he bankrupted his companies at least four times. Trump University, Trump Steaks, Trump Vodka, Trump Mortgage, Trump Magazine, the New Jersey Generals, Trump Airlines, Trump Entertainment Resorts -- all failed Trump businesses. Had I inherited $300M at the age he did and simply placed in an index fund, it would be worth several billion -- likely more than Trump is worth today and without the intervening bankruptcies. He also seems to have uniquely few real, lasting personal relationships with anyone other than blood relatives, including three divorces and chronic infidelity. So, if I were looking for examples of very successful teetotalers, he is not the role model I would look for.

      In fact, Trump's multiple personal and professional failures and his lack of alcohol bring to mind President Lincoln's response when lesser generals whined that General Grant had a drinking problem: “Can you send a barrel of whatever whiskey he drinks to all my other generals?”

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    9. Tina,

      Your comment didn't overstep, but I do think that virtually every time I get into this discussion it is with someone who is in a relationship that is all about D/s and little, if at all, DD in its orientation. They don't have the same motivations and the relationship dynamics vary significantly.

      Also, all these power exchange relationship are complicated. And, without meaning to cast aspersions on yours, do you notice how much your comment focuses on him "giving" you control and the effect it has when he asks you to "take" control but he does not easily "give" it? If the entire dynamic depends on him submitting easily, willingly, consistently . . . then he may have given up control but have you really "taken" it? Is Dominating really dominating if it is 100% dependent on the other person yielding quickly and easily? I used to ride horses. I never found controlling the spiritless ones to be very satisfying, and if my ability to stay in the saddle depended on them never bucking, did the deficiency lie with them or with me . . . Food for thought.

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  11. I absolutely don't care about who kwnow "who is in charge" . For us , it is a thing all our friends know about our way of living ! Not a shame, just a gift to them to live a better life. A loving gift. Spanking is the best issue we know, and it works ! Music share is another. After all, rythme is part of the big picture! We are spankers and spankees . It's a way of spreading our vision of life, being there for each other...and close friends !

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  12. Hi Dan,

    First about that article. I am not so concerned that they got it wrong; mistakes happen and everyone is always racing to get the scoop. What was simply outrageous was that that even when it became clear that they were wrong, they continued pushing the same story line! These kids are not public figures, thus the media has little or no protection from libel, so I sincerely HOPE that the media outlets involved get slammed with multi-million dollar lawsuits.

    I somewhat buy into the “fake media” thing. Not that the media completely makes things up, though they do blow many things way out of proportion to make compelling stories, but rather that many of the news stories today read more like what used to be on the opinion pages. We have lost the idea that it was the media’s job to fairly report the facts in a balanced manner and it is the peoples’ job to form their own opinions.

    Now, on to the questions:

    - What specific behaviors have you been spanked for where it worked and you changed the behavior?

    Perhaps the most significant of these was getting upset with her when she was out too long. I craved time alone, and so if she was out when we could have been alone, I would show my displeasure when she returned by giving her a cold shoulder. This resulted in her not enjoying what little time that she does get out with friends, because she got to look forward to coming home to a cranky husband. After a few punishment sessions for this, my behavior has changed.

    A lifelong habit that has changed has been me not washing my hands often or thoroughly enough. Interestingly I was never actually spanked for this, but she repeatedly threatened, and because anything involving DD gets so lodged in my head, it made me aware of the problem and I now wash my hands well and regularly. Had she not put this in the context of spanking, there is no chance that I would have changed, because I would have just tuned her out.

    - What specific behaviors have you been spanked for where you have yet to change the behavior?

    Maybe procrastination? I will write more about this later! ;-)

    - And what is your explanation for why spanking has worked for some and not others?

    DD works best for me when I genuinely desire to change. I want to be the best I can possibly and I want to be the husband my wife very much deserves. DD works for me not so much because I fear punishment, though my wife is now VERY proficient at giving fierce, painful, and long punishments as evidenced by my very sore (and surprisingly bruised) bottom today. Rather it is incredibly effective because it is such a strong form of communication and it speaks to me through my deepest fantasies.

    When DD doesn’t work, or doesn’t work quickly enough it is because either I don’t really agree that there is a real problem or I am too lazy to fix it. Also sometimes especially with deeply ingrained habits, we do them literally without thinking. I know you have expressed it sometimes works this way for you and alcohol. You can have a few more than you originally planned without conscious decision. I didn’t understand this until I was driving down the road one day and realized I had eaten the whole bag of gummy bears. I didn’t consciously think “should I or shouldn’t I have another?” but rather just kept eating without a single thought!

    -ZM

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    1. That was exactly my problem with the media coverage of that incident. I get that the media can and does make mistakes. Yet, as you say, many of them continued to spin the same narrative after it became crystal clear that it was false. And, none of them have been willing to come out and say that they the "elder" in question, simply lied in several of his interviews about everything from the way the incident took place to claiming to have served in Vietnam when he did not. Maddening.

      For some reason, I find her spanking you for being cranky when she comes home very interesting. I think a relatively newbie disciplinary wife turns that corner into a full-fledged disciplinarian when she starts spanking for that kind of thing -- something that you may not see as a problem but that has a negative impact on her own happiness.

      I totally get what you mean about DD failing in instances in which you don't see something as a real problem. Though, it sounds like that was sort of the situation with her coming home to a cranky husband, yet her commitment to DD cured you of that problem.

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  13. Hi again Dan,
    And finally an a note on this weeks questions. DD is NOT just about changing behavior, and especially not just eradicating misbehavior, though that is one valid use for it.

    Other uses/benefits of DD that come to mind are:

    - a way of her venting her feelings, keeping from things turning into resentment or silence

    - a way of her communicating the depth of her feelings about something

    - motivating him to achieve goals, either his, hers, or mutual. For me this is a big one, because it shortens the event horizon to something I can actually care about

    - Improving attitude. This is not “behavior,” but it can hugely impact a relationship

    - Not necessarily stopping a behavior, but rather just keeping it in check

    - Providing a sense of closure and atonement for any wrongs

    I am very sensitive (probably too sensitive!) to any suggestion that DD must or should be done any certain way. By some standards, we probably get it wrong much of the time, yet DD is improving my life and strengthening my marriage as we currently practice it. So while I always want us to get better at everything, as we are currently doing it works quite well for us!

    -ZM

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    1. I like your bullet list and I think every one is true, but for me none of them would matter if the behavior itself did not dramatically improve. I am not wasting my time and energy disciplining him if he is not going to act better!
      Elizabeth

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  14. This is Elizabeth's Frank. I gave my wife an answer to her question, and she asked I report it here. When she comes up to me at a party and takes a drink out of my hand and says "You are done, dear," with a smile and tone that will not be bucked, it touches something deep inside me. She calls it the eternal mother. I don't know exactly what that means, but I know that it feels like her authority is from something more than ourselves.

    I even think that those around me feel it. None of my friends has called her a B or teased me about it. They respect her for having the knowledge and the guts to cut me off. One friend said to me, "Wow, your wife knows how to use tough love." And I agree: It's the same authority she uses to swing the paddle, just exhibited verbally and publicly. In those moments, I would do anything she told me to do. I feel her mother power.

    The other situation is quite different. She is not there in person. I am at work, following a rule she has imposed, to call when I will be late. I have to stop what I am doing, often interrupting a meeting with several other guys. I feel embarrassed and childish. It's somehow a different kind of mother, a bossy ...

    The men around me feel it, too. They laugh and make comments, a totally different reaction than at the party. So it's not just me who feels the difference. It does not feel like the eternal mother.

    I know I'm not explaining the difference well. I don't really get it myself. Maybe Dan or some other philosophers on here can explain it better.

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    1. "he other situation is quite different. She is not there in person. I am at work, following a rule she has imposed, to call when I will be late. I have to stop what I am doing, often interrupting a meeting with several other guys. I feel embarrassed and childish. It's somehow a different kind of mother, a bossy"

      I totally get the distinction you are making, though I don't have any better way to articulate it. Sometimes moms are exercising authority and looking out for us. Sometimes they are just being bossy and controlling. There IS a difference in the way those two distinct exercises of authority comes across. I also share the irritation you feel with being interrupted at work. When I get annoyed at the "service domination" thing, it is often because I'm working on something at home and she tells me to do something that interrupts my work activity.

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  15. I love that "Eternal Mother" phrase. It's an undeniable characteristic of the feminine side of the equation of life. It's time to stop being amazed by it or consider it a new discovery. Female power and wisdom is built into this thing called life.

    That doesn't mean every single female is the embodiment of the higher manifestation of those things. But it does mean that they are wired for the potential for it.

    Frank invited "philosophers".

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  16. I don't think it's philosophical. I think it's physical. When Frank is in his wife's physical presence, and in front of a bunch of people, he has little choice but to obey. It's like when our wives tell us to pull down our pants and bend over while she is holding an implement. We feel have absolutely no choice. But when Frank is supposed to make a phone call, and Elizabeth is many miles away, he does feel like he has a choice. As do those around him.
    A lurking husband

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