Hello. Welcome back to the Disciplined Husbands Forum. Our weekly gathering of men and women engaged or interested in F/m domestic discipline and female led relationships. I hope you all had a great week.
A few weeks ago, I was at happy hour with a group of junior executives of our company. Happy hour being my much preferred format for mentoring. A discussion ensued in which a couple of our higher potential female executives bemoaned the fact their male subordinates treated them with less respect than they showed to male superiors, including not doing their work in as timely a manner, reacting badly to constructive feedback, and not prioritizing their work assignments. I asked what seemed to me to be a fairly logical follow-up question: "Why do you let them get away with it? If you repeatedly let them treat you with disrespect, don't you share some of the blame for letting that power dynamic fester?" An awkward silence followed. So I pressed forward a bit, pointing out that it isn't like they don't have tools at their disposal to slap someone down if they are ignoring orders, not responding quickly, etc. Pull them into your office for a stern lecture, don't put them on key projects, give them a lousy annual review, etc. If these guys weren't showing appropriate respect to female superiors, then why weren't those superiors making them pay a price for it? After another uncomfortable silence, one of them offered up a very honest answer: "Because they will see me as a bitch and call me one when I'm not around." To which I answered, "So?" Another awkward silence, and a bewildered look on the collective faces around the table. "Seriously," I said, "do you think that a male superior would put up with that shit? And, after that male superior slaps a subordinate down, do you think that subordinate doesn't call him a dick, or an asshole, or some similar derogatory word behind his back?" They continued to insist it just isn't the same thing, and I continued to ask why, without getting much more than, "It just is." It was one of those discussions where the perspectives of the people on opposing sides of the conversation were just so different that there plainly wasn't enough common ground for us to really get anywhere. So, we dropped it and went back to talking about whatever.
So, the topic for this week is largely directed at our Disciplinary Wives, though the husbands can always jump in to the extent they know their wives' feelings on this: Is the prospect of being seen as a "bitch" or being overly assertive an impediment to you taking on a DD or FLR leadership role? Do you hold back in ordering discipline or in making decisions in your relationship because you are, deep down inside, concerned about being seen as "bitchy" or overly aggressive? Do you have those feelings even where he has told you he wants you to be more stern and strict? I wonder about this from time to time, because I think it does have an impact on my own DD relationship. Angela is candid that she does enjoy exercising power over me, yet she can't ever quite adopt it as her daily approach to me, even though I've told her that I too want her to be the one in control and want her to feel more free to exercise that power and control as she sees fit. I really do think we are both on the same page about what we want, but I also think that deep inside, she lacks a certain comfort level with being perceived as strong and commanding.
I hope people find this one fun and that it triggers an honest exchange of views on things that can be done to help foster the kind of power exchange that many of us are looking for in these DD and FLR relationships.
By the way, you may note that for the first time in these posts, I gave my wife an actual name. It's not her real name, but it just feels too distant and vague for me to always refer to her as a generic "my wife." For whatever reason, the name Angela has always seemed like a power name to me. So, for purposes of this blog, Angela she will be.
Have a great weekend!
Dan
A few weeks ago, I was at happy hour with a group of junior executives of our company. Happy hour being my much preferred format for mentoring. A discussion ensued in which a couple of our higher potential female executives bemoaned the fact their male subordinates treated them with less respect than they showed to male superiors, including not doing their work in as timely a manner, reacting badly to constructive feedback, and not prioritizing their work assignments. I asked what seemed to me to be a fairly logical follow-up question: "Why do you let them get away with it? If you repeatedly let them treat you with disrespect, don't you share some of the blame for letting that power dynamic fester?" An awkward silence followed. So I pressed forward a bit, pointing out that it isn't like they don't have tools at their disposal to slap someone down if they are ignoring orders, not responding quickly, etc. Pull them into your office for a stern lecture, don't put them on key projects, give them a lousy annual review, etc. If these guys weren't showing appropriate respect to female superiors, then why weren't those superiors making them pay a price for it? After another uncomfortable silence, one of them offered up a very honest answer: "Because they will see me as a bitch and call me one when I'm not around." To which I answered, "So?" Another awkward silence, and a bewildered look on the collective faces around the table. "Seriously," I said, "do you think that a male superior would put up with that shit? And, after that male superior slaps a subordinate down, do you think that subordinate doesn't call him a dick, or an asshole, or some similar derogatory word behind his back?" They continued to insist it just isn't the same thing, and I continued to ask why, without getting much more than, "It just is." It was one of those discussions where the perspectives of the people on opposing sides of the conversation were just so different that there plainly wasn't enough common ground for us to really get anywhere. So, we dropped it and went back to talking about whatever.
So, the topic for this week is largely directed at our Disciplinary Wives, though the husbands can always jump in to the extent they know their wives' feelings on this: Is the prospect of being seen as a "bitch" or being overly assertive an impediment to you taking on a DD or FLR leadership role? Do you hold back in ordering discipline or in making decisions in your relationship because you are, deep down inside, concerned about being seen as "bitchy" or overly aggressive? Do you have those feelings even where he has told you he wants you to be more stern and strict? I wonder about this from time to time, because I think it does have an impact on my own DD relationship. Angela is candid that she does enjoy exercising power over me, yet she can't ever quite adopt it as her daily approach to me, even though I've told her that I too want her to be the one in control and want her to feel more free to exercise that power and control as she sees fit. I really do think we are both on the same page about what we want, but I also think that deep inside, she lacks a certain comfort level with being perceived as strong and commanding.
I hope people find this one fun and that it triggers an honest exchange of views on things that can be done to help foster the kind of power exchange that many of us are looking for in these DD and FLR relationships.
By the way, you may note that for the first time in these posts, I gave my wife an actual name. It's not her real name, but it just feels too distant and vague for me to always refer to her as a generic "my wife." For whatever reason, the name Angela has always seemed like a power name to me. So, for purposes of this blog, Angela she will be.
Have a great weekend!
Dan
I want to express my appreciate to Dan for putting together the most informative blog about F/M DD on the internet. I also appreciate his efforts to bring disciplinary wives (or those who are thinking about it) into the discussion. It is interesting for those of us who are disciplined by their wives to see and understand how other wives are handling DD in their households. Please ladies, continue to participate.
ReplyDeleteAs for today's subject. I did perceive my wife as bitchy along with other forms of anger such as the silent treatment, etc. BEFORE we agreed on a DD program to correct things that I did that angered her. Truthfully, I agreed she had good cause for concluding I was a pain in the ass on some occasions. We listed those things and I gave her enforcement powers to paddle me as she felt I deserved when one of our agreements was violated. It didn't take long for her to really buy into enforcing that agreement. Nor did it take me long to eliminate troubling behaviors because the paddling's I got were painful enough to be avoided and I learned from that. But most importantly I know the rules, my wife is not bitchy (she is proactive at solving issues that were causing problems in our marriage) and I appreciate that because it solves the issue quickly. I would much rather have my wife paddle my behind good and hard than to listen to her bitching or giving me the silent treatment. The end result of our DD relationship is that we have better communications, we have a much rosier relationship because I understand the behaviors that I should avoid, we don't have long drawn out disputes and building anger, and to top it off we are much closer and more in love than we were since courting and early marriage.
Fred
Thanks, Fred. The compliments are much appreciated. I hadn't really thought of this from the angle that a perception of "bitchiness" might actually be stronger BEFORE instituting DD, but it makes perfect sense. People of both genders "act out" or engage in passive-aggressive behaviors when they don't feel empowered.
ReplyDeleteJ. may be short-tempered, but not "bitchy". "Bitchiness", I would argue, comes from frustration at not being to get compliance from one's partner - and J. has a surefire way to deal with that. A sound on-the-spot spanking or flogging will do it (sometimes followed by 'corner time')... When misdemeanors occur away from home, I am immediately put "on notice", which usually has the desired effect - and the punishment will follow in short order.
ReplyDeleteL.
Hi L. Thanks for the input on this.
DeleteTo me bitchiness is simply a woman misusing her power or not being comfortable with her power, being somewhat out of control and consequently behaving in a nasty or demeaning way. My wife ( sorry , still no name) when I met her was a natural disciplinarian and authoritarian who expected to be obeyed and was very comfortable in that role. Her mother has a similar personality. They both give quiet, confident commands and are as far from being bitch's as can be imagined. Even when I am being punished she never yells, never loses control and never loses that in charge personality that I am so drawn to and awed by. Some men might call her bitchy because she is so much in charge but that is just male insecurity about strong women.. A woman is not a bitch because she is in control. She might be bitchy if she is uncomfortable with being in control
ReplyDeleteAlan .
Thanks, Alan. I like the observation about male insecurity about strong women.
DeleteMe? Bitchy???? Never!!!
ReplyDeleteWell, I wouldn't say never, but I will say that it's rare I'm bitchy or a bitch. Most people, men especially, are surprised to find out that I'm a Mistress/Dominant/Disciplinary Wife. I'm not mean, I'm rarely cruel, and I only raise my voice on rare occasion. Men have said I came across as too sweet and gentle, and male submissives often tell me I'm not "Dominant enough" without ever having experienced me. But I don't give a rat's patoot if I'm viewed as being gentle, or as a bitch, because I'm always me. Take me or leave me.
I will often refer men to my Fet profile so they can get a tiny glimpse into just how harsh I can be. It weeds the weak ones out. I also feel that any man that is strong enough to be willing to submit to his wife/girlfriend is a strong man indeed!
HI Merry. "Take me or leave me" sounds like a life philosophy many should emulate.
DeleteDan
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't until we had the boys and I began to see that my sons were beginning to mirror Peter's bad behavior
that I realized I had to put a stop to Peter's behavior if I wanted my boys to toe the line. We were in counseling and it was there that Peter confessed to often when he acted out in the past he was punished. Without going into the
whole tale, I realized if discipline with consequences was what it took to save our marriage , I was ready. This took
a lot of honest talk between the two of us. Confessing this was hard for Peter and to be honest often made me feel That I might not be up to the task.It took over a year before we hit on a way to make it work for us both.
As Peter grew and calmed down, my boys did too and that made me feel stronger and more able to take charge.
It requires work and patience and above all honesty. For wives be brave and bold for husbands embrace your needs and voice them. After a session, talk about it. For wives the bonus is now i feel more capable in dealing with the mechanic that wants to dismiss you or any male who is rude. I never raise my voice but I say what I mean. Is it perfect, not always but it is better. I have enormous respect for Peter for opening up to me and I know he is proud of me.
Anna
Hi Anna. It's great that you feel more capable dealing with rude or dismissive men outside your relationship with Peter. Do you feel that being perceived negatively, i.e. "bitchy" was something that held you back in those kinds of encounters before you started spanking Peter?
DeleteCalling me a bitch was what led to my husbands first appointment with the strap.He had done it before but my mom heard it for the first time and told me I was a fool for allowing it. There were other things going on at the time including his general bratiness and increasing temper tantrums when he was frustrated. It was a big change for me because I had been determined to manage my own marriage different than my mom had done. But over a period of time,about three years, I saw the same behavior in my husband that had got dad in trouble with mom.When I told him what was going to happen he gave me almost no resistance. That makes me think he wanted me to take charge and his brattiness and tantrums were his way of asking for it.He knew how mom had run things and I think that made him want the same thing from me. The strap transformed him into a sweet loving husband. I don't think that would have ever happened if I had not acted ( or to be honest if mom had not pushed it)
ReplyDeleteHolly
Hi Holly. I recall your post in the Guestbook about knowing your mother spanked, but not being interested in it for your own marriage, until your husband's "brattiness" caused you to rethink it. This week's topic was meant to be aimed at whether fears of being perceived as "bitchy" or overly aggressive or assertive holds practicing and potential disciplinary wives back in a any way. If I may ask, did you associate that with your mother's discipline of your dad, and was such a perception part of why you originally did not want to use DD as a tool in your own marriage?
DeleteDan
DeleteIt's a good question.I wanted a marriage of equals and could not see that happening if I had to control him with corporal punishment. I don't think I was afraid of being perceived as bitchy but maybe unfeminine. Also I thought mom spanked too quickly and I still think that to some extent . But our marriage is more of an equal partnership then it ever was. Using the strap produced what I always wanted and the joke is I was afraid the opposite would happen.I needed pushed and fortunately someone did that
Holly
Hi Holly. Appearing "unfeminine" is something I hadn't zoned in on with this topic, and I think it is a helpful distinction. I completely understand the paradox of ending up with a more equal marriage by empowering one spouse to discipline the other. It's really how and why my wife and I started DD and, unlike with your situation, it was my suggestion. Unlike some DD couples where the woman is naturally more dominant and the man is more naturally submissive, in our relationship if we both just played in line with our personalities and social conditioning, I would be in charge because I have the more domineering personality. But, that goes in the wrong direction for us. I wanted her to grow and feel increasingly powerful and more confident, and I also felt a real need for boundaries and to be subject to someone's authority precisely because I have rarely had anyone who really could impose any restraints on me. So, for us, putting the strap in her hand helped was a way of equaling things out and helping us both become more balanced. Now, this year, things have been tilting more toward a "female led" dynamic, which maybe departs a bit from wanting things to be equal. But, I think it has to be looked at in the larger context that, left to my own devices, I stilt tend to dominate. So, placing her more fully in charge still is, in many ways, an effort compensate for the overall lack of balance in our personalities, and for the fact that I feel like my work life is so tilted all the time toward me being in control that it is helpful for me to have some part of my life where I just give that control up and surrender it to someone else.
DeleteAs always, thanks for participating. It is great to have your views.
Dan
ReplyDeleteWhat I noticed with time is that the softer I speak to a man who is trying to dismiss me or label me as a bitch, the more effective it seems to be. Peter is reading over my shoulder and comments that the softer I speak the larger the stick.I do speak softly but firmly. I recall my dad telling my brother always have a firm handshake and always look the man in the eye. Anna
I am sure Peter is right that the best combination is speaking softly while brandishing the big stick. Maybe you need to take a paddle with you the next time you take your car to the mechanic. :-)
DeleteDan
DeleteI did one better, i told his wife what a rude jerk he was to me. Also told her that I would be taking our business elsewhere in the future.... a few days after i spoke with her he called and apologized.
anna
That's awesome!
DeleteOr what some men might call the work of a bitch! :)
Deleteanna
Anna is right that some men ( a lot) call women bitches who exercise their power in a commanding way.. It is different for women in a wife led relationship who are supported in using their authority by husbands and boyfriends who thrive under strict discipline. I treasure Jay for that and for realizing female authority is good for both of us. But most men I believe are threatened by a woman truly in charge and calling us bitches shows their insecurity. Standing up to such men as I have done and apparently Anna and Holly have each done is incredibly brave but once you do it, you might find a man who wants you to take charge and very much needs his pants taken down.
DeleteMarisa
Hi Marisa. It's great that Jay recognizes that, and I do believe a lot of insecure men do have problems with female authority. See my next comment below, however, for the spin I would really like to see addressed a bit more.
DeleteSeveral people have raised interesting issues and have shared whether their wife is bitchy or their husband does or does not think she is bitchy. And, I don't doubt that a lot of men call women bitches when they exercise power in a commanding way. The scenario I described above, however, tried to point out that I think women may underestimate the extent to which subordinate men also refer to their male leaders as dicks, assholes, etc. Where I think there may be a difference is that many men will punish them for it, but I'm not sure the same is true of women in similar positions. So, I gently guide everyone back to the topic question, which was really not so much about whether men call women bitches or whether individual spouses are bitches or assholes, but whether the prospect of being called or thought of as a "bitch" holds women back from assuming real leadership and from stepping (more) firmly into an FLR or DD role?
ReplyDeleteDelete
Hey everyone. Sorry for jumping in late but this Saturday is Halloween and our favorite holiday. We are also having a party.....so a lot of prep going on here. Anyway...to the point at hand:
ReplyDeleteRosa has said that she has held back in certain aspects due to this possible perception, but, on the other hand, she has also gone out of her way to publicly 'flex her muscles' when a receptive 'audience' is around. I also know that she is very careful with a few things that some here might say she should not be overly concerned about. One is that as a dominant human being who is in charge and has power....and likes to be pampered, she naturally goes between enforcing real, constructive guidelines for me and her desire for pampering attention.....which is pleasurable for her. As a result, she tries to be reasonable about her pampering demands and feels if she is unreasonable, she might be venturing into 'bitchy-territory'.
The other thing is she does seem less inhibited with being strict when it's a no-brainer reaction to something I'm clearly guilty of. I suppose she does not see fair use of authority as 'potentially bitchy'....but just as a natural state of our arrangement.
And lastly, even given the second point, she still can be hesitant if: I am clearly stressed and acting poorly not so much out of misbehavior but a feeling of being overwhelmed.......or if she comes home to find a whole bunch of positive accomplishments I've done through the day, along with some minor misstep. She is quite inclined to overlook the misstep ......unless she is feeling playful and just wants an excuse to spank. But in this instance, she would see punishing me strictly for one misstep among a dozen achievements as 'bitchy'.
The thing is, submissive though I may be.....I agree with this approach and find it the main reason I can trust her enough to submit to a punishment even when I'm fighting it and coming up with a bunch of excuses. Given my personality, it is very difficult to follow her into our bedroom and go over her lap when it's the LAST thing I 'want'.....or even feel she's being unreasonable about. I do cooperate precisely because it's not only what I agreed to, but because I know if she really felt it was unreasonable, she would not be doing it. Her sensitivity to not being a bitch has empowered her to be a very formidable disciplinarian. And since as much as I know her......she knows me even better. And I think besides her own sense of justice, she knows acting responsibly has given her wide approval and acceptance in her role, not only from me, but others who might regard her as a bitch if they did not see the same restraint and fairness that I see.
And in conclusion, that's the bottom line. If you are being fair but firm.......only a person trying to demean or undermine you is going to think you're a bitch. However, if your authority has empowered you to be a self-serving, unreasonable, and vain tyrant........you are quite likely to be (accurately) assessed as a bitch.
KD, as is often the case my friend, you make some very interesting points. I had not thought about "sensitivity to not being a bitch" actually aiding the in the disciplinary process and adding to its integrity. I went into this topic seeing that concern as an unvarnished negative, but you have made me rethink things. Thank you!
DeleteYou're welcome. What a nice compliment.
DeleteWell, back to more Halloween preparations!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI have been in a full DD relationship with two women. Neither of them as far as I know was inhibited from assuming the role of disciplinarian for fear I or someone else would call them a bitch.Both of them shared our disciplinary relationship with other couples ( although both were discreet about who was confided in ). The key to this may be that I entered both DD relationships knowing what I wanted and needed. Both of my partners were taking control of a man who wanted it.But It might be very different if a woman unilaterally imposes discipline.I think if a man makes it clear he is ready to submit to her authority, the bitch issue doesn't arise.
Alan
Hi Alan. I will respectfully disagree that it doesn't arise where the man makes it clear that he is ready for discipline, or at least disagree that it usually works out that way. I suspect that for it to do so, the woman has to have a fairly high appetite for being a disciplinary dominant. For my wife, it definitely takes a lot of work for her to overcome the negative socialization that causes her to associate assertiveness with bitchiness.
DeleteDan,
DeleteI have no doubt your experience is common. I am only relating my own history. My girlfriend advocated spanking before I met her Although she had not spanked an adult male) and my wife was in a DD relationship with her former husband.Both woman were very comfortable with the notion of male discipline
Alan
Now that I have a somewhat quiet moment, I'd like to share a thought:
ReplyDeleteMost girls are raised in such a way that they are taught to be submissive, meek, and "nice." "Good" girls are liked and treated well, "Bad" girls aren't liked, and they don't get nice things. Nobody likes a bitch, and being thought of as one, or worse, being called one hurts us to our very core, because we want to be "good" and liked by others.
The real problem is that men know this, and they use that knowledge against women. Want to put a woman in her place? Call her a bitch, and she'll do anything, everything to prove she isn't. It's a control issue.
I personally see a bitch as a woman that acts rude, is unnecessarily loud, and treats others with disrespect. She is oblivious to anyone and everyone who doesn't suit her needs and wants, and wanders around with a sense of entitlement ignoring all others. I've met a bitch or two in the dungeon, but from what the men and women here write, I get the feeling that every woman that I've encountered here is the complete opposite of that. Each of you are strong (whether you believe it or not) caring, and are able to see and smell bullshit. You're intelligent, so you call bullshit, and you clean it up by using discipline. No one seems unnecessarily cruel, and, while some of the men might be a little embarrassed about it, I think it has more to do with their own behaviors that bring on the discipline than you.
Final thought: I've watched Anna blossom over the past year, and I just want to encourage her. You've become more self-assured and assertive, and that's a very good thing.
♥
Merry
Very well said. I really don't know whether men know women fear being labeled a bitch and use it against them, or that many just do consider strong women to be bitches. My guess is, a little of both. This is one area in which I have no real expertise. I've always been attracted to strong women. I never really had a desire to be dominated by them (until recently, with my wife) but I definitely felt very attracted from an early age to self-confident, assertive women.
DeleteOn another topic altogether..... I like reading "Data" and you get a good response to your surveys.
ReplyDeleteI am curious as to how much time on average people like us spend "pondering" spanking matters. Like how many times a day do people think about it? How much time do they spend on web sites and blogs daily, weekly etc? Other activities related to it?
Anyway, there's a suggestion for your next survey.