The Club - Meeting 495 -- FLR-ish? When does domestic discipline become FLR?

“To say that we mutually agree to coercion is not to say that we are required to enjoy it, or even to pretend we enjoy it.” - Garrett Hardin

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly meeting of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline and/or Female Led (FLR) relationships.

Once again, before we get started, I would like to thank the female commenters who have recently joined us and to extend an invitation to all others who may be inclined to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We like having you around.

Well, it took longer than any year I can recall, but summer seemed to finally capitulate and give way to a real fall.  As I write this, I look out my bedroom window at a grey sky as backdrop for waves of yellow and red trees (with still a little green). When I took the dogs for their morning walk, I had to put on one of my cold weather coats.  Love it!

Unfortunately, I am way, way behind my normal schedule in putting up Halloween yard decorations, since most of them go on the lawn and, until a few days ago, I was still watering and cutting grass.  

Anne continues to convalescence and, since I’ve been more or less homebound, there’s very little to report. Turns out this good behavior stuff leaves me with a lot less to talk about on the blog!  It’s not clear when Anne will realistically be in paddle-wielding form again, but I don’t think it’s too far away.  And, while my recent behavior may not have earned one, I get the sense she’s keeping score of things that have gone unpunished during this little medically-induced break, probably because she's told me so.  I guess we'll be seeing where things stand by Halloween.

As for how I’ve been keeping busy during this break, it’s what led, in part, to this week’s topic and an accompanying request to the group for feedback on the blog’s direction.

Over the last couple of weeks, I have spent hours—way too many to count—going through virtually all my old blog posts since it began in 2013, reviewing and copying “the best” comments on various topics.  Over the 11 year history of these daily gatherings, we’ve had 607 posts (some were “no post this week” notices, though a surprising number of those generated full-blown discussions) and, at last count, 26,963 comments.  I now have only about a full year of comments to go (excluding 2024). So, like I said, it has been a lot of hours.  

I’ll probably give some detailed observations from that review in another post, but one thing in particular jumped out at me.  I knew that in the early days we had more female commenters than we do today, but I’d kind of forgotten just how many more.  Some didn’t stick around that long, but there were quite a few who dropped in from time to time.  

But, what really got my attention reading sequentially all the comments from those Disciplinary Wives was just how into being fully in control many of them were.  Even though I was not focusing on Female Led Relationships (FLRs) per se at that point but, rather, only F/m discipline, many of the female commenters sure were, including many who expressly identified themselves as being in that dynamic. And, even those who didn’t use that label often brought an unmistakably “FLR-ish” vibe, for lack of a better word, to the conversation. 

A few examples:

“A wife may and generally should consult with her husband in setting or readjusting boundaries. But ultimately it is her decision what those boundaries are at any point and her decision when and why a punishment occurs. If he does not understand why he is being punished it is her responsibility to explain it to him. But he must accept her judgement whether he agrees or not.” – Marisa

“My advice for husbands is to accept their punishments with as much grace and dignity as possible and to understand their wife would not be spanking them if she did not love them. A man should not worry whether his wife might spank for this or that nearly as much as he should worry that she might give up on it and stop spanking all together. My advice for wives is decide clearly if you are willing to take on the responsibility of being a disciplinarian ( and it is a responsibility) If you decide to go ahead, go all the way establishing your authority with firmness and consistency. It’s a great lifestyle between a loving couple but it IS a lot of work. - Marisa

“I have zero tolerance for disobedience. What would be the point of a FLR if my husband could choose whether or not to do as he’s told?” – Danielle

“My ideal spanking for my husband has to do with attitude and obedience. Other things like location, his position and the tool or tools I use aren’t very important (although I do like to use a strap and the sound it makes) I want him to submit immediately when I decide a spanking and to be obedient and cooperative through the whole thing.” – Holly

“Our DD is rules based plus, meaning if he breaks a rule or disobeys me his pants come down, end of sentence. The plus part is I decide when it happens and if I say he has broken a rule, he has, no backtalk, no second chances.  Rules based plus just made sense from the beginning. He wanted rules and structure but wanted to choose when to obey and what rules he would follow. He thought it was going to be an erotic game. I straightened him out on that score and a few other things. Along the way I found out things about myself I didn't know and ways to handle him I needed to learn. We have very few disagreements now and these are settled quickly. I sometimes wonder if he would have asked for all this if he had known where it was going. It doesn't really matter because we are not going back.” –  Amy

“Accepting and living in a FLR provides clarity and peace. When I have control of decisions, it is on me. There's no blaming or the inevitable well you just didn't understand my plan when it went wrong. It's a heavy responsibility to try to make the right decision all the time, but at least I have control over it and I can own it. For my husband, it takes much of the decision fatigue of guessing what the right answer might be or waiting for me to get angry when his suggestion doesn't work. This is simple and clean. My choice, my responsibility, his responsibility to follow. The clarity of it is a significant component of why we do this.” – Rhiannon

Note the heavy focus on obedience, as well as on not just the benefits but the responsibilities of taking the lead in a F/m disciplinary relationship.

I probably should not have been surprised.  Like so many before and after me, I came to the whole concept of Domestic Discipline through The Disciplinary Wives Club.  Over the last year, I’ve spent a fair amount of time reviewing not only the website but also the DWC handbooks.  It now leaps out at me, in a way that it didn’t when I first encountered it, just how much Aunt Kay and Jerry leaned on the same “obedience” and “control” themes that those early blog commenters emphasized.  It struck me that, while Kay kept explicitly sexual material out of the DWC materials, that doesn’t mean she wasn’t advocating a very FLR-ish power shift.  There are lots of examples, but here is one that encapsulates her view of the appropriate power dynamic:

“Effective discipline begins well before you ever reach the point of administering a spanking.  It begins with your awareness of your own personal power and your belief that you are indeed the right woman to handle this (which you are).  From now on you expect to be obeyed!

Think about where you are.  Your husband has come to you and asked you to please take over his discipline.  He has empowered you to assume the maternal role and has agreed to take the child role with respect to discipline.  He wants more than anything else for you to be powerful, assertive and in control.  It is a beautiful thing, really.  He is practically begging you to reach into your internal strength, which he correctly senses is in you, and take him to the woodshed when he needs it.  Believe me, not only can you do this, it gets better and better.”

There are other quotes where she makes clear that, while getting the husband's “buy in” to the rules is the ideal, it isn’t strictly necessary.  What is necessary is his unfailing obedience to his wife's determination of what is punishment-worthy and her decisions regarding when, how and how long.

“The definition of a DWC relationship is that the woman’s role involves providing moral and behavioral guidance to the man and invests in her the absolute authority to decide upon and wield punishments accordingly.  The man’s role is to accept this authority and strive to gain benefit from it. 

Discipline is based on mutual understanding about the rules of behavior in the home and what to expect if they are broken.  While you have the authority to set the rules, it all works out best if you discuss them with your husband and allow him to “negotiate” some of the rules, so he does in fact feel responsibility for them too.  When a discipline session is called for, it must always be given.  This is especially true when you are beginning your new journey as a DWC wife.”

As longer-term group members know, I’ve gone back and forth on how much to promote FLR relationships on the blog, versus sticking to something more exclusively focused on the corporal punishment aspects, i.e. spanking, of Domestic Discipline.  It did seem like every time I would move consciously in that direction, the BDSM crowd would descend in droves.

But, the real driving force behind the decision was following Aunt Kay’s lead in trying to make it an inviting place for women, many of whom I knew would be turned off by anything involving stereotypical Femdom.

On the other hand, after sifting through thousands of those older comments, it seems clear to me that several of our most active female commenters were either in self-identified FLRs or in relationships that were very FLR-ish.

It led me to ask myself, have I been drawing the line in the right place?  It got me to wondering how some of our new female commenters think of their relationships, not so much in terms of what specific label they apply but, rather, in terms of the breadth of relationship control they exercise and how much of an “I’m in charge” vibe they bring to the whole thing.

My questioning regarding my past line drawing was somewhat reinforced by the profiles of the women who have been following my writing on Medium.  Many of them also seem to be heavily oriented toward FLRs. But, it’s dicey drawing conclusions from that platform, because so many of my followers are erotica writers (Medium is first and foremost a writing platform) and, hence, there tends to be an emphasis on sexual content in many of the profiles.

It seems like every time the topic of FLRs is raised expressly here, we get into long debates about definitions and defining whether we see our particular relationship is falling squarely in the FLR bucket.  I’d really like to avoid that this time. Instead, here is a list of relationship aspects that seem to me to indicate that the couple is going beyond the narrowest form of DD in which both agree to specific offenses that will punished and also agree to all the major how, when and where aspects.  In other words, I’m focusing on the quality and extent of the wife’s authority.  Further, I’ve added a few things that try to get at the general tone. There is a rough progression in the extent or quality of the authority, as I view it.  

I am very sure some will quibble on whether some items belong on the list and others will point out that I forgot certain factors, which is fine. This is meant to stimulate discussion, not to provide some authoritative checklist. So, here goes:

1. If the couple have formal rules for what is spankable, she determines whether his behavior qualifies.  He may (or may not) be allowed to state his case, but she makes the decision and can spank even if he objects.
2. If the couple has rules, she determines in advance what they are.  
3. She can add a rule around spanking any time, at her sole discretion, but with some discussion in advance.
4. There are no formal rules. Rather, she has unlimited discretion to determine the “why” when it comes to spanking.
5. She determines behaviors and habits she expects him to do, not do, or develop and instructs him to do so.  His views may be solicited, but ultimately she decides.
6. His buy-in on what is spankable is ideal but not necessary.  If she determines he should get spanked for something, he gets spanked.
7. In addition to the “why,” she determines the “how” and the “when.”
8. She is verbally stern and feels comfortable giving him instructions on her expectations regarding his behavior.  She is comfortable giving harsh lectures and scolding, including outside the spanking context.
9. There is a heavy emphasis on obedience, not simply around not breaking rules but also doing what she says and following her directions/orders as they are given.
10. She decides how openly to display her authority or the existence of the DD relationship. She chooses to add elements to spankings that are designed to humble him or elevate her power.  For example: Hinting or referring to the DD relationship to friends or family. Conducting spankings at a time in place that risks one being overheard.  Bringing in a witness to overhear, see, or participate in a spanking. 
11. Her decision-making authority extends beyond spanking and disciplinary matters to include broader aspects of the relationship such as financial and spending decisions, parenting decisions, health issues, etc.  While decisions may typically be made jointly, if there is a dispute, she has the final say. 

Like I said, I’m sure people can come up with many other factors to look at and, again, I’m not saying that any of these factors independently determine whether a relationship is or is not an FLR.  I see each as more like a data point indicating that the relationship has aspects that go beyond mere DD.

To reinforce my hope that this doesn’t devolve into another debate about definitions or box labeling, I’m not going to say whether I think Anne and I are in an FLR or to what degree.  Instead, I’ll give a very short overview of where I think we are on some of the aspects identified above.

First, when it comes to decisions around the “why,” “when,” where,” and “how” of spanking discipline, she rules, though we’ve never been that adventurous on any of them.  Regarding the “why”—which I see as the most indicative of her discretion—she can and has punished me for things we never agreed would be spankable. There also have been times she’s given me spankings that were much harder or longer than I thought the offense merited.

Regarding decision-making outside the context of spankings and punishment, it’s a muddier situation. On the “FLR-ish” side, she has done things like telling me when to go to bed or deciding on her own when we will leave a party.  

On a recent trip, she didn’t like that I was speeding and told me that if I got a ticket, I would get a spanking every day that week. 

Now, those were still linked to spanking in that spanking would have been a consequence of contrary decisions on my part. Still she was more or less imposing the rules as she went along and not worrying about whether I agreed.  

On major decisions, there definitely are some areas where I would not defer. For example, a major decision regarding finances. It’s a little theoretical because we haven’t had any real disputes in those areas, but I think it’s fair to say that neither of us see her “tie-breaking” authority to extend into all areas of our relationship.  On the other hand, she has gotten more assertive in making certain decisions that I see as significant, such as deciding we are taking an extensive foreign vacation without asking me for my views about it.

In terms of openly displaying her authority, over the last couple of years she’s gotten less risk-averse when it comes to others knowing. It’s nowhere close to being fully “out” with her authority, but things like spanking in front of an open window in daytime now happen routinely and would not have a few years ago.  Moreover, she didn’t ask for my input on that. Instead, I went to close the window shades at the beginning of a session, and she told me to leave them open.  Full stop.  

Although she hasn’t chosen to tell anyone herself, she has had some open discussions about our DD relationship with a mutual friend who I told, including telling that friend that I would be getting a spanking after I engaged in what Anne saw as domineering conversational behavior at dinner.

Regarding others knowing, she hasn’t told anyone herself. She has hinted at the spanking aspect a couple of times in front of relatives (primarily our daughters), but the hints were pretty vague.  The ebony hairbrush and bath brush are now always on display on our bathroom counter.  (I don’t recall exactly, but I think I started leaving the hairbrush out after a session, and she soon followed by placing the bath brush alongside it.)  We seem to be a long way from anything like a witnessed spanking or open revelations about the details of our DD relationship and, if we were to go in that direction, it very likely would be because of prodding from me.

One problem with any attempt to apply pre-set criteria is that, in my opinion, a lot of the difference between DD and FLR relationships is more qualitative than objective.  It’s a matter of tone and comfort with wielding authority, sometimes sternly. One thing that jumped out at me in the quotes above was the overt insistence on “obedience.”  To me, that goes beyond merely cooperating with her spanking decisions.  It’s about her making a broad range of decisions and expecting them to be carried out, even when he disagrees, including on things that restrict his own autonomy. 

On that factor, I think it’s a mix and kind of a backward one at that. I do think I obey most—though not all—the time when she tells me to do or not do something.  But, she has seldom overtly emphasized “obedience” as an expectation in the way you see in the above quotes. I do see that as perhaps indicating that, if we are in an FLR, it is on the milder end of the spectrum.

What are your thoughts on all this?  Again, I don’t want to get into a bunch of “angels dancing on the heads of pins” definitional debates, but I would be curious to hear whether you see your relationship as something that goes well beyond “mere” DD; something closer to her having real power or authority over you.  Whether yes or no, is her authority and use of it as extensive and open as you want (or think you want)?

I would be particularly interested in hearing from the Disciplinary Wives on how much power they feel they have in the relationship and, as importantly, how much they would like to have. Do you have unlimited authority on the spanking aspects of the relationship? Does your authority extend beyond that? Do you want it to?  Whatever the extent of your authority, are you comfortable with it, or do you want more?

Finally, I’d like to hear perspectives on whether I have been drawing the line around acceptable subject matter in the right place and, if not, where you'd suggest drawing it.  I’m not promising I will change anything, but I would like to get more perspectives, especially since we have several new-ish participants.

Have a great week.