The Club - Meeting 435 - Fantasy vs. Reality

“Fantasy is hardly an escape from reality. It's a way of understanding it.” -Lloyd Alexander

 

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship.

 

I hope you all had a great week.  Several in Tennessee obviously didn’t. Another week, another fucking school shooting.  What is it we were saying here the last couple of weeks about how we are somehow failing our youth?  Fuck, fuck, fuck, I am fucking sick of this.  But, please U.S. politicians, keep those thoughts and prayers coming.  

On a more personal if much, much less important note, Anne finally got a bit of good news on her hand injury.  It’s not resolved yet, but at least maybe it’s finally moving in the right direction.  So, perhaps a return to discipline will be in our future.  Surprisingly, my behavior hasn’t been that bad during this downtime, but a couple of nights ago, I had an instance of carelessness about something important that definitely should earn a severe one.  Unfortunately, by the time Anne’s hand is in shape to deliver, I'll probably feel much less contrite.

 

Anyway, we had some good discussions last week.  I didn’t tally the “votes,” but it seemed like a relatively even split between those whose DD yearnings were rooted first in spanking versus those for whom it is an authority thing. Though it’s probably an error to talk about it in binary terms at all, since it seems that for most of us the line has never been all that distinct and/or the motivations—or our insights and self-awareness about them—have changed substantially over time.

 

Near the end of the week, ZM observed that a few weeks ago some comments started centering on “fantasy vs. reality” but it fizzled out. He then went back to a post from April of 2016, in which I posted verbatim an email ZM had sent me regarding how his fantasies about DD differed from the reality he was experiencing.  I went back and read it and the associated comments.  Since I am struggling mightily again to come up with an original post for this week, here is a lightly pared down version of that post, together with some of the more interesting comments.  Combined, it’s a long read, but well worth the time.

 

ZM’s observations on “fantasy vs. reality”

 

I know that I crave "real" discipline, punishment, and control, that which most people would rather avoid. This need for control and discipline is a perpetual enigma that forever lives in the never-never land between fantasy and reality. My fantasy and reality are far apart and in direct conflict:

• In my fantasy, boundaries are imposed and enforced.  In reality, I rebel against any boundaries. 
• In my fantasy, my actions have consequences.  In reality, I try to avoid negative consequences. 
• In my fantasy, I crave punishment.  In reality, I fear punishment. 
• In my fantasy, I must give up control.  In reality, I love to be in control. 
• In my fantasy, I am weak and powerless.  In reality, I am strong and powerful.

 

I am incredibly fortunate because I have someone who loves me enough to understand and fulfill my unusual needs and desires. It is complicated by the fact that my fantasy needs it to be "real," but at the same time, we have a great relationship and equal partnership, so our reality needs it to be "fantasy." In the end, we allow the fantasy to enter our reality from time to time, but our relationship will never be in any way defined by it, but rather by our love for each other. We are loving, we are in love, and everything we do is inspired by love. Even the very firmness, strictness, harshness and at times almost meanness that she unleashes as part of this fantasy ultimately flows from our love for each other. It is very ironic that this fantasy which is based on power and control (both of which have absolutely no place in love) makes us ever closer to each other and more in love.

 

So here I am waiting, remembering the last time and anticipating the next, not knowing when it will be; It could be tomorrow, next week, or next month.  I crave it because the whole experience is unbelievably exciting, and not knowing when it will next happen only adds to the excitement.  At the same time I also fear the real emotion involved, since I don’t like disappointing her. As more time passes from the last punishment, the desire grows and I want it to happen again. But in order for it to have meaning, it has to be for real infractions and she has to have emotions to vent. Because I love her and only want to make her happy, I will never try to hurt her feelings, so infractions are not intentional, but rather things that I do without thinking or that result from my bad habits.  Also, because she is kind and understanding, she might not choose to punish me even when I deserve it.  However, living together inevitably ensures that infractions will happen from time to time, and at least at some of these times, she will be in the mood to use my fantasy to make her feelings clear.

 

When she decides to punish me, I am immediately overcome by powerful emotions as my fantasy collides with the reality of my impending punishment. My heart races and I feel a surge of adrenaline bordering on fear. I may think it is unfair or undeserved and try to defend my actions or plead my innocence, but ultimately, it was me who asked for this, who gave her this authority, and who said that her word is final, so I give in to the inevitable.  As soon as the punishment actually starts, everything becomes very real very quickly, and the fantasy is forgotten for a time, totally replaced by reality.  I am initially surprised by how it is more painful than I remembered, since I tend to forget the pain and remember only the experience (kind of like having a baby). At first, I try to fight the punishment and just endure until the end.  I am more focused on being strong than thinking about why I am being punished. As the punishment continues, I start to feel like I can't take any more, and that it will never end.  But of course, it doesn't end yet, since at that point true punishment is just beginning.  The pain, embarrassment, guilt and emotion keep building as the punishment progresses and they overpower all my defenses one by one, until in the end I surrender to and even embrace the punishment, knowing that I deserve it and need it. At that point, I relax and just absorb the lesson being taught.  Finally the punishment can end.

 

However real the punishment might have been, as soon as it is over, the conflict between reality and fantasy begins once again. Over the following days, the punishment (with all of the feelings of fear, excitement, pain, and embarrassment) is ever-present in my mind.  As I sit down, or perhaps as I walk, I feel the effects of the punishment.  The times I am not consciously aware of it, I am unconsciously replaying the punishment, what was said, what needs to change, etc. But as I remember what happened, I am seeing the reality of what happened through the lens of fantasy.  Yes it was painful, embarrassing, etc., but it was also very, very hot!

 

Again, THIS is why it works (at least for me). Even though I don't always understand this relationship between fantasy and reality, it is BECAUSE of this paradox that it is so powerful for me. As we walk over this bridge between fantasy and reality, it all at once fulfills my strongest fantasies, changes me, and strengthens our love.

• It greatly enhances communication. I hear and understand much better than if she just used verbal communication. Because of the sudden harshness and seriousness, and because it plays to my deepest fantasy, the issue is given maximum attention, but in a positive way, rather than negative. Rather than just try to evade the issue and make it go away, I actually listen. Since relationships are entirely dependent on communication, this is incredibly powerful and makes our relationship bulletproof. It changes my thinking or my mindset about the situation or behavior. Over the days that follow, the whole scene and all the emotions of it is on constant replay through my mind, and I see the situation more clearly from her viewpoint. As my mindset changes, it changes my behavior. 
• It greatly increases intimacy. In life, I am strong and always stand up for her, provide for her, and protect her.  But for a time, I am completely vulnerable to her. This vulnerability enables intimacy which creates a bond that others will never feel. 
•  It makes me love her and feel loved even more, because she cares enough about me to do anything and everything to make my fantasies reality. Sure, if she was just cold and distant, it would make a point, but I would be angry with her and would feel defensive and might pull away. Instead, she has made my fantasy reality, exactly at the time she might not feel much like doing me favors.   

Because she is using my own fantasy to communicate her own feelings, I fully hear what she says, I see things from a different perspective, I feel closer to her than ever, and it makes me want to meet her every need because of our deep love for each other.  This strengthens our relationship and empowers me to make changes that allow our lives to be better, happier, and less stressful as I become who I want to be and we achieve our dreams."

Marisa’s Response

 

I believe the challenge for any woman taking on the responsibility of disciplining her husband is moving him from his fantasy to a shared reality for both of them. Whatever the fantasy is, it will take over his life if it is not altered with reality. I think the strap or paddle (or cane if you use one) makes him confront reality quickly. If you don't believe that watch what happens to his erection when the punishment begins. Consistent and if necessary progressive discipline is what makes him confront that reality more and more and hold on to the fantasy less and less. The fact is these guys do need real accountability, real discipline and real punishment. Aunt Kay was right about saying the marks should last for several days or a week and he should know and remember what happened because he dared to disobey or break a rule. His fantasy is what makes him accept corporal punishment but its an adolescent little boy looking for a mommy figure fantasy. But he is not a little boy and I am not his mommy. I am his wife and when I punish him I want him to understand that and gradually replace that silly fantasy with the reality I love him but he gets punished every time he needs it. Looking this over, it sounds harsh but it isn't. Evey wife has a choice to pander to that fantasy while getting little or no improvement in behavior or to help her husband grow and become the best of himself. None of you guys will achieve that until you let go of your fantasy and connect with the reality that your wife is your disciplinarian today, tomorrow and the rest of your life.

 

Anonymous comment #1

 

It is often a lifelong fantasy and the fantasy is for real discipline so I am not sure that experiencing the reality -no matter how painful and humiliating- will weaken the fantasy nor do I think it is necessarily desirable. In my opinion, it is better for both to embrace the fantasy and occasionally make it very real, and real punishments should continue well past the point it is fun and leave marks and soreness that last for at least several days. If the husband is seeking this it is important for the wife to very clearly assert her authority and to leave no doubt that she can punish him whenever she wants however she wants and how severely she wants. In the beginning, this can be amplified by occasionally punishing him quite severely for something very minor, when he is not expecting it. She can even tell him she knows that it wasn't a big deal but that she needs him to understand that her authority to punish him is unlimited (unless he decides to no longer have this as part of the relationship) and she can punish him whenever she feels like it. If she does this and this is what he wants then she will also reap the benefit of improved behaviors and attitudes and he will be very loving and attentive to her needs. I too am unsure about the Mommy figure because I don't feel that way towards her at any time, but during and after punishments I very much feel like a "bad boy" and at least temporarily makes me less arrogant and cocky, which is good for everyone around me.

KD Pierre

 

To me "fantasy" is a tricky word to use in the context of DD. I would prefer "expectation," i.e: how did I envision DD when we were deciding on it and how has the reality of it played out differently? To me "fantasy" suggests that DD is predominantly sexual, whereas, in our case, sexuality is a sizable element...........but not the only one. "Fantasy" also has a connotation of dress-up and concocted scenarios, whereas spanking may well be a fetish...but within DD it is a fetish being used for a genuine purpose.

 

For me the biggest difference between my expectations and my reality is the way Rosa has taken to all this. Even as I suggested DD, rules, punishment ideas, etc. at the beginning, something in me that craved it all to be real, still saw DD as some sort of 'game' albeit one with rules and real consequences. Rosa sees aspects of our DD as a sort of game as well.......but underneath it all, her belief is that our agreement means that she is "the boss" for real.

 

I sort of saw my obedience as my way of willingly following the rules of the game, or honoring the promises I made. She sees my obedience as a given. If asked, she would look at you with a sort of "what don't you get?" expression as she confirmed her belief in her authority. That is the thing I still can't get used to even as I admire her for her confidence and unabashed belief in her right to rule and punish. I suppose my expectation is still that she would see my submission as a much bigger deal than she does. Instead of this huge concession of rights, or this big "gift of submission", she truly sees our roles with a 'no-brainer' recognition of each of us being exactly where we are meant to be. So I guess when she has a serious discussion with me over some expectation or behavior, or when she plainly informs me that something I did or didn't do has just earned me a spanking, I am still surprised...........even though it is sort of what I was hoping for in my 'fantasy'.

 

[Note: There is a three-part comment from an anonymous wife, regarding what a “real” disciplinary spanking should be like, that is well worth reading though I’m not going to post it again here since this is already a very long post.]

 

All great stuff!  Something I really like about Marisa’s comment in particular is her view that the reality of DD is necessary to keep the fantasy from taking over the husband’s life.  It’s almost the converse—or at least the other side of the coin—from some of the observations Alan, ZM, and others have made about how the fantasy fuels the disciplinary reality. 

 

I could come up with a lengthy list of areas in which our DD reality doesn’t match my original expectations. I am using KD's preferred “expectations” here instead of “fantasies,” because there was a very short period between my discovering DD and Anne implementing it, and during that period I don’t think I really had any “fantasies” per se. Rather, I had preconceived notions of what it must be like, based largely on the Disciplinary Wives Club stories.  For me, the three areas in which there is the biggest gap between expectations and reality are:

 

• Real spankings hurt so much worse than anything I anticipated then, and even how I think of them now until right before the first swat lands. You would think that after dozens and dozens of spankings I would have very clear, accurate memory-driven expectations, yet there still is this enormous gap. 
• The DWC stories led me to believe that crying was a common outcome.  That expectation caused me no end of angst in the early days, because I was dreading the embarrassment.  All these years later, it’s still never really happened. 
• I have an attraction to the idea of being taken under my wife’s strict control, yet when she imposes real controls I feel a lot of internal resistance.

 

So, how is your Domestic Discipline or FLR relationship different from what you fantasized about or envisioned? Are they in conflict, or do they mutually reinforce each other?  When initiating DD or as the relationship developed, did you talk to your wife about your fantasies and expectations? Does she have met or unmet DD or FLR fantasies of her own that she’s told you about?

 

Have a great week.

The Club - Meeting 434 - What Got You Going, Spanking or Authority?

“The argument that 'boys will be boys' actually carries the profoundly anti-male implication that we should expect bad behavior from boys and men.” -Jackson Katz

 

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship.

 

I hope you all had a great week.  Ours was, frankly, so-so at best.  Anne’s hand injury is turning out to be more complicated, and possibly longer-lasting, than her doctor originally thought.  I guess such is life, though it’s frustrating. For her more than me, for sure.  Though, I can kind of feel things slipping a bit during this period in which even the threat of real discipline isn’t very realistic.  But, as I said, such is life and we’ll just have to see how it goes.

 

Despite not having an actual topic, we managed to generate a few good discussion points last week.

 

A carry-over from the prior week was whether women really are increasingly empowered in our society and what the implications might be for F/m DD relationships.  J and TG made a couple of points that I’ll repost here (lightly edited) in case others who shared my break-taking last week want to discuss them further:

 

J: I wonder if, say, female empowerment might lead to F/M DD being normalised? Maybe it would result in men complaining about having received it being regarded (by say their peers or the public) as having received their just desserts (assuming that people believed they actually did what their wives spanked them for)?

 

TG: I think it’s only in the last fifty or so years that we’ve started to see real change. I think overall women trend slightly more intelligent and more stable than men, as evidenced for example by the shift in stats on college degrees awarded. As technology has developed, superior physical strength has become progressively less important, leveling the playing field. We now see more women in positions of power in business and politics. More highly qualified women in fields such as law and medicine. My own opinion is that this trend will continue and within the next century the developed world will become far more matriarchal. How this might impact F/m DD, I can’t imagine, it might increase it as women become more dominant or the opposite as their status becomes more ingrained and they feel less need for outward expressions of control.

 

I think it’s incontestable that young women are thriving these days, while young men are flailing.  What the implications of that are for F/m DD and FLR relationships, I agree with TG that it could go either way.  Many men seek out DD relationships because they are firmly in control outside the home, and they feel a need to give up some of that control at home. As women gain more power outside the home, will they have a similar reaction and want to exercise less control at home?  Very possibly.

 

On the other hand, women can be very practical and seem less susceptible to swinging from one extreme to another.  Maybe, once they’ve tasted more power in the workplace, they’ll see the advantages of using it at home as well?

 

Then, there is the fact that men do, in fact, seem to be flailing, which is something that might distinguish a more matriarchal society from its patriarchal predecessor.  Maybe women who have tasted power and control may feel more justified in using it at home for the simple reason that the men there seem to have more need for being controlled.

 

I thought about this a little more in the context of some of the assertions that we may be hardwired genetically for spanking and discipline. Alan has suggested many times that we have a “spanking gene.”  I admit, I’ve been a skeptic. I’ve thought about it more recently, however, and I can get on board with it if, instead of a spanking gene, it was posited as an adaptation favoring those whose behavior is subject to discipline and correction, including but not limited to spanking.  It’s not hard to come up with a retrospective explanation for our spanking and discipline interest that centers on how obeying authority and allowing bad impulses to be externally corrected could have been adaptive in our hunter-gatherer days.  Especially given that back then banishment from society for violating the harmony of the group could be a quick death sentence, conformity to external rules and discipline definitely could be an adaptive trait.

 

I thought of this in relation to GH recounting a Latin textbook with a reference to corporal punishment among the ancient Romans and also his comments about how young men are flailing.  It does seem that corporal punishment has been nearly ubiquitous across time and geography, which lends some support to Alan’s “spanking gene” theory.  But, it also would seem to have some implications for those who are the most adamantly opposed to non-adult corporal punishment. What happens when one of the historical tools for triggering an adaptive trait is removed? Not a few parents probably got a taste of it when stuck at home with their kids during the pandemic.

 

If corporal punishment and receptiveness to physical discipline and imposed behavioral change really is adaptive, then is banning and banishing it really a good idea?  Have we put anything equally adaptive in its place?  If so, how is it that depression, anxiety, and self-destructive behaviors in kids, particularly our boys, are at an all time high? Food for thought.

 

 There was also a bit of discussion last week about “spanking in anger.”

 

TB: Like many I am more committed than my wife - she will never spank ‘in anger’ which can sometimes mean that punishments are delayed and that (the very occasional) arguments drag on before we finally resolve, calm down and she will then deal with the transgression. My point to her is that if she could deal with the issue earlier and ideally before it mutates into a full ‘dispute’, then we would avoid any arguments & lead a happier and calmer life. She still has reservations about spanking when emotions are still running high, whereas I am convinced that taking action early / immediately would break the cycle.

 

KOJ: My wife did spank when she was irritated about my behavior, and she spanked hard. But I never felt she was out of control, and she never needed to apologize for anything done while irritated (which is a better description than "anger," in my mind). If she couldn't spank immediately, she would threaten a spanking to curb my behavior in the moment, and/or promise a spanking later.  These strategies did stop conflict in its tracks, reducing its length and the resentment that typically follows.

 

T: I’m the opposite of above. I wish my wife would spank when she was angry with me. I feel it would resolve the problem immediately and nip it in the bud. I also feel the spanking would be harsher and would hit home internally. I agree with J, that I want that immediate punishment to avoid hurt feeling and resentment.

 

 

As I said in response to TB, I’m perpetually on the fence on this one. Spanking while angry probably would be a good thing for Anne.  In general, one of the advantages women get out of F/m DD is being able to “express themselves” concretely and in unmistakably clear terms, and doing so in the moment is probably very empowering. 

 

On the other hand, the efficacy of spanking in anger may depend a lot on whether *both* our emotions are running high. When I'm convinced I'm right and my own emotions are running high, I may not be that open to getting the message she is trying to convey.  It seems to take a while for me to cool off and see her perspective. Also, while I don't have any problem in principle with spanking in anger, the whole calm, "business-like" demeanor also really works for me.

 

Though, my receptivity or lack thereof may not always be entitled to much weight.  I had a similar thought in mind when I highlighted K’s comments regarding his wife’s post-orgasm use of a rubber strap.  It’s hard to conceive of anything more “real” in terms of punishment, and perhaps that needs to be on the table even if it were to cause me to “man up” and internally resist it in the moment.  As K said:

 

[T]he fact that she has in her arsenal the ability to punish me in ways I'm GENUINELY afraid of, that I REALLY don't like, and that I go out of my way to avoid, has definitely changed the dynamics of our relationship (for the better). I feel truly that she's in charge, not merely that we're playing a game, and that reality permeates our day-to-day life. I find it comforting, and very, very sexy. (On the rare occasions when she severely punishes me, there's NOTHING sexy about it, especially after she has me climax, but the memory if it reinforces a relationship that I find very sexually fulfilling, if that makes sense).

 

There's something essentially different in knowing that I'm subject to being punished "for real" by the woman I cherish.

 

So, some great discussions were had during a “no topic” week.  One of the threads between GH and I suggested a topic for this week.  We talked a bit about how we both had a thing for older women when we were growing up, particularly older female authority figures, including teachers.   

 

It had extended from a discussion about whether we would have been open to DD in our younger days, or whether male egos and insecurity would have gotten in the way.  I noted:

 

I really am puzzled by how I would have reacted to DD in my 20s. I'm not sure that I would have been attracted to it if offered or demanded by a woman who was my peer in age or younger. But, had it come from an older woman, I think it's more than likely I would have gone for it. I knew even back then that I had a thing for older women, though I didn't quite get at the time that what I was attracted to wasn't based on age but, rather, on the confidence and power differential that the age brought with it. And, looking back again, even the girls I got crushes on in high school and college tended to be much more confident than average. So, I think the tendency was probably there all along, but it was about confidence and power and not about spanking, which wasn't at all on my radar at that time.

 

Many, probably most, of the commenters here have said they had a “thing” for spanking from a fairly early age.  My question for the group is, with the benefit of hindsight, to what extent was that about the spanking, and to what extent was it about the power differential, i.e. about being subject to a powerful female’s authority?  Was it clearly about one or the other, or was it both?  Has the mix changed over time?

 

As I’ve said, I seem to be an exception here in that I did not have an early interest in spanking and none as an adult until I was in my late 30s.  Looking back, however, I suspect I had a thing for strong women long before I had articulated that clearly in my own mind.

 

 

I’ve said for a long time that I had a thing for older women when I was younger.  As I’ve gotten older and felt that shift a little, I’ve begun to suspect it was never about age per se. Rather, it was an attraction to confidence and power, and the plain fact was that some older women had that confidence while few women my own age did.  I got crushes on teachers, professors, and strong female business executives because those were the ones most likely to openly display power or authority.  I also suspect that the power was accompanied by the kind of sexual energy that is confidence's  natural byproduct.

When I discovered The Disciplinary Wives Club, the stories that hit me the hardest were those that involved very stark displays of authority, including those where the disciplinary relationship was either imposed by the woman originally or enthusiastically and strictly applied after she met her husband’s request to give it a try. 

 

While a hard disciplinary spanking was the concrete expression of that authority, the authority held the real emotional force for me.  It’s confirmed by the fact that, while the combination of authority and spanking has the most emotional impact on me, an open display of authority without the spanking still gives me butterflies in my stomach, while a spanking outside the power dynamics of a disciplinary relationship does little if anything for me.

 

How about you?  What’s your primary driver – the spanking or the authority and power behind it? Or, is it impossible to separate the two?

 

I hope you have a great week.  I’ll leave you with this meme I found recently. It has nothing to do with anything, but it made me laugh my ass off.

 

 

No (New) Post This Week

Hi all.  I said last week that I wasn't feeling any inspiration.  I managed to develop a suggestion from Donn into a full post, but this week I'm back to a big fat nothing where DD inspiration is concerned.

 

It may be because we are so out of the habit personally.  Unfortunately, Anne’s arm injury, which was supposed to require about four weeks of immobilization, is looking like it might require some more serious intervention.  We’ll just have to see how it goes.

 

Although I cannot personally come up with anything worth talking about this week, I’m happy to provide the forum for continuing anything that was discussed last week. I will note that almost immediately after complaining that I could find many DD art or memes with non-white subjects, I stumbled on this captioned DD meme.

 

 

It also relates nicely to a comment from K that I found interesting related to his wife imposing post-orgasm, rubber strap punishment:

 

J has the attitude, which she made clear when we agreed to this, that punishment should be just that, and should be something I truly seek to avoid. And it sure is! It's rare - maybe once a year? - and reserved for serious, deliberate breaches of our relationship, such as lying. It's never casual or routine, and always hurts like hell, but I see it as basically a preferable alternative to ending or altering the nature of our relationship. This is not the same as the painful, but not nearly as severe, spankings she'll give me with a strap or hairbrush for less serious, more day-to-day offenses, and DEFINITELY not sexy (though the fact that she has the confidence and authority to do that is SUPREMELY sexy to me, just not in the moment).

 

It's only bearable because I trust that she won't harm me. But it sure feels terrible, beyond anything I'd voluntarily subject myself to or ask for.

 

I admit to being intrigued by wives who take such a “whatever it takes” approach, even if I personally was so intimidated by our rubber straps that I threw them all away. I’m very confident I would never suggest something like that on my own.

 

But, while the topic interests me, we did a “whatever it takes" topic less than six months ago. I don’t have anything new to add, but I’m happy to keep the discussion going if others want to weigh on how far their wives are willing to go in making sure serious issues are, in fact, well-punished.  Perhaps Alan would be willing to update us on his wife's "back to basics" approach, which sounded like it might also be related to ramping up punishment significant to deal with ongoing problems.

We also had some interesting discussions going about things like:

 

·      whether females acquiring more and power in society is likely to increase or decrease participation in F/m power exchange and domestic discipline relationships;

·      early experiences with spankings within our families, including whether siblings were spanked and how they may have influenced our punishment via things like tattling or telling friends about spankings

·      origins and initial triggers on spanking interests

 

Please feel free to continue to weigh in on any of these or, alternatively, take a week off.  I hope you have a good week.

The Club - Meeting 433 - Other DD Influences

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.” ― C.G. Jung

 

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship.

 

I hope you had a good week.  Mine was pretty tame, with nothing very interesting happening on any front.  Winter still won’t go away, so I’ve been spending a lot of time holed up in my home office reading books, with periodic breaks to take the dogs on snowy walks.

 

I did come across this meme, which I thought was pretty damn funny and reminded me of some of the comments a couple of weeks ago about getting traffic tickets.

 

 

We had a fairly robust discussion about scolding and lecturing.  It’s an area I suspect I may be coming back to frequently in my own marriage over the next few months, given Anne’s recent enthusiasm for speaking her mind.  Philosophically, I identify pretty strongly with Alan’s observations:

 

Dan writes: “It's soooooo much harder when you agree to give up some autonomy and actually take actual independent direction from someone else.”

 

YES! But that is also the sweet spot in a DD relationship. Deep down, it’s what we both want to experience and fear experiencing.

 

My working theory is that most spankos who need or want to submit to authority hang onto their autonomy, sometimes desperately. It is that hanging on that seeks the release of letting go- and maybe the experience of letting go and discovering the world has not ended.

 

For me, a hard scolding or lecture continues to be much harder to take than a spanking, probably because it is, in fact, a newer thing for us. I’ve taken dozens and dozens of spankings in the fifteen years we’ve been doing it and, while they hurt a lot in the moment, that moment passes very quickly.  That’s not always true of a verbal dressing down. As we’ve discussed many times here, one advantage of a spanking is it clears the air.  I find that a lecture, however, often requires me to think longer and harder about the behavior at issue and about why I need to change it.

 

Anyway, onto this week’s topic.  I almost skipped posting this week, because I was a little burned out on thinking and writing about domestic discipline, after a long-ish period in which it seemed to be on my mind a lot.  Then, I remembered that Donn had suggested the following topic:

 

Dan: This might be an interesting topic for a future discussion. We have talked before about how our childhood experiences may have influenced us and our wives' perspectives, desires, and openness to DD, but we have never really delved into how various religious, ethnic and "racial" backgrounds and perspectives effect such matters. (Full disclosure: I grew up in a racially mixed family; spend a lot of time "maturing" in the Deep South, during periods when it was the "Old, Bad 'Deep South'.")

 

Let’s talk about that.  But, I gentle warning up front that, given how polarizing discussions about religion and race can be, please keep your comments focused on how those influence our openness to or how we approach domestic discipline and our wives’ authority. I may be a little quicker on the trigger when it comes to deleting comments that some might consider offensive.

 

I will kick it off, though I don’t have a lot to contribute.

 

My first observation is that preparing this post highlighted just how thoroughly, overwhelming white is DD-related art.  I paged through several hundred drawings and captioned pictures in my collection and found virtually zip with black spankers or spankees.  There were a few examples on non-white participants here and there, but damn few of them.

 

 In fact, to find spanking art that was remotely relevant, I had to look to kink-adjacent areas like cuckolding.

 

  

Many of those involved female dominance coupled with M/m sexual scenarios. 

 

 

[Note: While not 100% clear, I am pretty sure the above was meant to depict a black male, as I've seen other, colorized drawings from this same artist with similar themes.]

 

The same was true about religious themes.  I found a few “nuns slapping hands with rulers” examples, but that was about it.

 

One interesting aspect of this dearth of black and religious DD art is that it seems a little at odds with experience.  I have seen multiple studies finding that black parents use corporal punishment more (twice as much, in fact) than white parents.  Yet, that prevalence in real life doesn’t seem to be reflected at all in spanking art. Similarly, we’ve had several commenters here discuss personal anecdotes regarding spanking in religious schools, particularly Catholic schools.  Yet, again, it’s not a significant focus in spanking art.

 

In terms of my personal experience, I don’t have much to say about race or ethnicity.  I’m pretty much a mutt, though with a fairly heavy mix of English and Scotch-Irish.  The English obviously have a reputation for being into spanking and caning, though my connections to the “old country” are so stale that I don’t think anything relating to my racial/ethnic background had much, if any, impact on my openness to domestic discipline. 

 

Religious influences are a little more complicated, though I again don’t see any direct connection.  I grew up part of my childhood in the Bible Belt.  Spanking is obviously prevalent there, but I’m not sure how directly that is associated with any particular religious tenets in those areas.  I’m also not sure how much, if at all, the prevalence of childhood corporal punishment in the Bible Belt translates into practicing DD as adults.  I also grew up part of my childhood in a very heavily Catholic area, and if corporal punishment was as prevalent there, it wasn’t as openly displayed or discussed.  

 

Where I think maybe religion could have had an indirect impact is I probably absorbed my fair share of “fire and brimstone” sermons in my early years, and who knows whether those may have instilled in me an unconscious focus on bad behavior leading to bad consequences, with that perhaps leaving me more open to a kink that focuses on hard consequences.  Then there is the whole “Protestant work ethic” with all its focus on striving, self-improvement, etc. and there are many examples of Biblical wisdom advising self-discipline, and more than a few regarding helping others to discipline themselves. 

 

That’s about all I have to offer on the topic. I look forward to any comments you may have.

The Club - Meeting 432 - Lecturing and Scolding

“A lot of people are afraid to say what they want. That’s why they don’t get what they want.” – Madonna

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship.

I hope you had a good week.  Mine was pretty uneventful, apart from the situation I’ll set out below. In most ways, it's been a good couple of weeks.  Pared way back on alcohol.  Made it to the gym several times.  My diet was mostly good, though my efforts to get more fruits and vegetables into my diet is always a challenge.

The weather has also been a tease.  Warming to an almost pleasant degree one day; snowing the next.  I'm kind of tired of it and ready for a real Spring.  

Well, last week’s topic kind of . . . flopped . . . didn’t it?  That does happen sometimes, of course.  Though, it’s also sometimes hard for me to tell whether it flopped because people didn’t feel like engaging with the topic or they felt no personal connection to it, or because it was just one of those times when people were busy with other things. In any event, onward.

I got an email from someone earlier this week asking me about scolding. They acknowledged having a bit of a fetish around wanting to be scolded or lectured but also acknowledged having an anti-authoritarian personality and not taking criticism very well.  

I totally get that, and it’s a timely statement reflecting how the last few months of Anne’s increasing focus on the FLR and DD aspects of our relationship has been a challenge.  I’ve related a few times here about a couple of disciplinary sessions late last year that followed arguments and how it led to resentment before I eventually had an epiphany along the lines of me actually being in the wrong.  In both cases, it wasn’t really the spanking that caused my ongoing mental angst. It was the lecturing and scolding. 

As I also reported, however, while it took a few weeks for me to get over it the first time it happened, the second time the resentment lasted only a few days. 

This weekend, we had another, albeit much more minor, incident.  We went out to dinner with one of the kids and her significant other. From my perspective, everything went well.  No excessive drinking.  No overbearing behavior on my part.

 

So, I was a little surprised that the next day, as I was leaving for the gym, she told me “We need to talk . . .”  She then gave me a lecture about spending too much time looking at my phone at dinner.  I didn’t agree with her fully, and I pointed out that when it is just the too of us together, she constantly has her head buried in her gadgets (which she didn’t own up to, even though it’s 100% true). 

Unlike the previous two or three incidents, this time I didn’t get very worked up about it and, honestly, within a few minutes I was acknowledging to myself that she was basically right.  So, what was different this time?  Three things:

• First, this time I think there was less room for diverging interpretations.  While I may believe (rightly) that she’s been guilty of the same thing on other occasions, I couldn’t really contest that I’d done what she said I had done.  I also didn’t disagree about whether it was inappropriate. So, I (mostly) agreed with both her interpretation of the facts and her judgment that the behavior had been inappropriate.
• Second, unlike the other incidents, this didn’t involve anything that struck me deeply or personally. It wasn’t something touching on any significant identity or relationship issue.  It was really about bad manners, and she was simply calling me out for them.
• Third, her tone was more business-like this time.  She definitely was letting me know that she didn’t like the behavior and expected it not to happen again, but it wasn’t emotional or biting. 

 I don’t know whether those three are a prescription for an effective scolding, but it seems that way to me as I write this a week later.

 

It was not, by the way, followed by a spanking or other punishment. But, I would have understood completely had she taken that next step and ordered one.  In fact, it probably should have happened in light of the “get a scolding, get a spanking” resolution we talked about at the beginning of the year. 

 

While I do think the way she handled things this time was just about perfect, I do wonder whether it would “scratch the itch” for husbands who want (or think they want) stronger scolding and lecturing and generally more verbal dominance. There are certainly many of them out there.  When I ran a poll several years ago on what men wanted “more” or “less” of, the results were: 

Spankings were more severe                                       76

Spankings were less severe                                           5 

Spankings were more frequent                                     91

Spankings were less frequent                                         3 

My partner would be more verbally strict               76

My partner would be less verbally strict                    0 

My partner would be more openly dominant               67

My partner would be less openly dominant                    1

The email from a reader and the incident with Anne got me thinking more about lecturing and scolding.   I’m not sure why so many of us who are into discipline are also into verbal strictness, even if we don’t always consider ourselves to be in an FLR.  It may even be “a thing” among those who are not necessarily into DD, if cultural references are an indication.

 

For example, there is a great scene in the Netflix series The Crown that has a very direct reference to the power of being scolded by a woman.  It’s in Season 2.  Winston Churchill’s health is failing, but he and some of his cabinet ministers try to hide it from the young Queen Elizabeth.  When she learns of their deception, she is upset about its implications for their views of her leadership. She discusses it with her tutor, a wizened professor who advises her that she must assert her authority. He recommends bringing them in for "a good dressing down." Doubtful, she asks why men of such power and distinction would stand for it if she were to do so.  Her tutor observes, "Because they're English, male, and upper class.  A good dressing down from nanny is what they want most in life."  She does as he advises, bringing the offenders in for a sound scolding.  After it is over and they have been dismissed, she encounters her husband in their quarters.  Not knowing what she has just done, he observes that she looks "taller." Clearly sensing that something has changed, he gets turned on and initiates sex on the spot. 

While it may be fodder for FLR fantasies, my recent encounters with real scoldings and lectures make me believe they may be where the rubber meets the road when it comes to the sometimes significant gap between fantasy and reality.  Scoldings are just different from spankings in important respects. 

First, particularly with respect to the first two that were connected to more significant arguments, I found that real scoldings were harder to take and stuck with me longer than spankings alone.  I talked to Aunt Kay’s husband about it a little. His response was something to the effect of, “Let’s face it.  A real scolding is hard to take.  It just is.”  He’s clearly right about that, though I had to fully experience it a couple of times to really understand it. 

Second, scoldings may be a bit more unilateral in one respect than are spankings. We’ve talked here many times about how spankings effectively “clear the air,” allowing the couple to move on quickly.  Scoldings and lectures don’t necessarily precede a spanking, however. There was no spanking following up on Anne’s most recent lecture.  As I said I got over this one very quickly, but I think a more serious scolding might allow her to vent and purge herself of her annoyance or anger, but it may leave him to confront his conscience without the benefit of a sore bottom leading to that feeling that the slate has been fully wiped clean. 

Third, I personally feel scolding can have a maternal vibe that exceeds what I get with spankings or spankings alone.  Or, at least they can. The two that bred resentment for me were closely tied to marital arguments, and the scoldings definitely reflected that dynamic. This latest time, however, it felt more like getting a lecture from a fed-up mother. 

Fourth, for those who have a spanking fetish or for whom spankings have a strong erotic component, I suspect scolding may be harder to take than a spanking because that same erotic energy may not be there to “cushion the blow” to the ego. Of course, that may not be much of an issue if scoldings always precede a spanking. 

Finally, I suspect—though I do not know for sure—that scolding and lecturing may be even more empowering for the wives than spanking. So many of us start in these relationships with her spanking mostly as accommodation of his requests to explore it, often to correct things that he sees as an issue that may not be that important to her.  Vocalizing your displeasure seems more assertive to me and potentially more personally liberating and empowering. Let’s face it, most of us in this society are conditioned not to communicate strongly and directly about what we expect from others or to let them know in no uncertain terms when they have let us down.  I suspect that for the wives, it must be a virtuous circle in which scolding leads to feelings of real empowerment, and the feelings of empowerment lead to an increased willingness to scold and give direction. 

Is strong lecturing or scolding part of your DD or  FLR relationship? Do you want it to be?  Is a lecture always or almost always followed by a spanking? Does she ever lecture or scold after a spanking?  

 

And, since we are all always so fascinated by the topic of witnesses, have you ever received a real scolding in front of others?

 

I hope you all have a great week.