Sunday, August 14, 2022

The Club - Meeting 407 - Arguing, Multiple Offenses & Repeat Offenses

“You can't talk your way out of a problem you behaved your way into!” - Stephen R. Covey

 

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.  I hope you all had a great week.

 

We had a good discussion last week.  I know it covered some controversial ground, and everyone kept the conversation respectful.  I thought the most interesting part was about whether a drop in the frequency of corporal punishment at home and in schools is likely to result in a drop in domestic discipline over time, since most people did seem to think their interest in DD as adults was connected, at least in part, to seeing or hearing spankings at school or at home growing up. It does seem logical that if people are exposed to it less as kids, interest in it as an adult is less likely to be triggered. 

 

Yet, it’s a really convoluted cause-and-effect environment right now, and I don’t pretend to have any idea how it will ultimately play out. On the one hand, there seems to be less societal shaming of kinky or unconventional sex practices than at any time in modern history, more access to sexual and spanking content on the internet, and the wild success of 50 Shades would seem to indicate a lot of openness to kink, especially kink involving dominance and power dynamics. Yet, studies keep showing that both teenagers and adults are having less sex and delaying it until later in life. So, all the new openness around sex seems and the breakdown in societal mores around sex and kink is correlated with less sex actually taking place.  Further complicating things, while DD has sexual aspects, it’s not about sex per se, so I don’t know how strong any correlation might be between overall sexual trends and trends in DD.  All I know is, it seems very complicated and more than a little arbitrary.

 

Anyway, it’s been an interesting few weeks here.  I feel like after getting off to a really slow start to whatever this new phase of life I’m in is—early retirement, semi-retirement, hard pause . . . whatever you want to call it—things are kind of picking up. It’s probably a result of Anne joining me in the state of joblessness.  It seems like we’re traveling more, planning travel more, going out more in general, reconnecting with friends and making new ones, etc.  I could see this new, more active phase accelerating, particularly since I think she’s a lot more certain that the active work phase of her life is done, while I’m still kind of on the fence.

 


I also feel like things are changing on the Domestic Discipline front, though so far it’s been more about the intention than the actual disciplinary action.  Part of it is Anne seems more focused on it now that work isn’t competing for her attention. But, the other part is some odd escalation in my behavioral issues.  I say odd in that old problems aren’t (in my opinion) getting any worse are actually a lot better than they were a year or so ago.  Yet, on that “small things” front we talked about a couple of weeks ago, things have gotten worse and in weird ways. 

 

During that discussion, I talked about how Anne was getting increasingly mad about me failing to lock doors and also leaving the garage door open.  Not an hour after I left a comment on the blog about that happening, I did it again!  And, this time she followed through and spanked me for it that night.

 


 

Yet, I did it again within a day or two of that spanking, and it has happened several times since.  The odd thing is, until recently this was a very infrequent problem. Now, it seems to be happening all the time. 

 

I am very clear in my own mind that I’m taking her concerns about this seriously, yet the problem seemed to get worse, not better, after she spanked me for it. I honestly have no idea what’s causing the problem.  I would actually worry about whether my mind is slipping in a medically troubling way, yet the problem seems to be manifesting in only this one, very particular way.

 


 While the incidents kept piling up, Anne didn’t give me another spanking.  She threatened it multiple times, but it didn’t actually happen.  I will own up to it; the failure at follow-through was attributable mainly to my efforts at delay.

 

While I feel like her intentions around DD have solidified in the last few months, unfortunately, so far she hasn't developed quite enough strictness to just put her foot down. So, we both bear some responsibility here.  She does need to get more comfortable with not only giving an order but with actually making it stick in the face of some moderate resistance or questioning.  But, I also need to get much better at simply doing what she tells me to do, without argument or undermining.


I feel like my efforts to get myself off the hook and avoid accountability are becoming a bigger problem. It’s not just failing repeatedly to close a garage door.  I mentioned a few weeks ago that I’d gone on a little adventure and, through sheer absent-mindedness and inattention, didn’t take care of some gear maintenance.  It caused some distraction and extra work for myself and others and, honestly, it could have created a safety issue.  I was pretty angry at myself for creating the situation and, when we got back, I had decided I was going to ask Anne for a hard spanking. Basically, for once I was determined to hold myself accountable. 

 

But, then came all the garage door incidents, and I got spanked for one of them.  I should have still asked for a spanking for the separate inattention-related problem, but I didn’t. And, as several days went by, the connection between offense and accountability seemed more and more strained, until I finally dropped all intentions around asking to be spanked for it. 

 

Then, there was an incident last week in which we disagreed on a particular behavior and whether it should result in a spanking.  With the benefit of hindsight, we both had legitimate points. I think I was right regarding the overall issue, but she pointed out that there was one aspect of the behavior that we had specifically agreed would result in spankings.   

 


The bottom line is, no spanking happened, even though it probably should have and would have in the absence of me arguing with her.

 

We had a discussion here last year about these self-defeating efforts to delay or avoid punishment.  I do know it is self-defeating.  I say I want her to be more strict and stern, yet in the moment I can’t seem to help but undermine her efforts.  I truly get that it’s unfair to her, because she tries to be more assertive like I say I want, but then I don’t exactly cooperate with that process.

 

Yet, part of that resistance seems almost inevitable to me, precisely because things are starting to seem more “real.”  When she gets more assertive and more aggressive in ordering spankings, I try harder to get out of them. It’s unfair and counterproductive, but isn’t it also precisely what you would expect when discipline starts becoming truly imposed? I’ve said I want it to feel non-consensual, and when I genuinely don’t want to be spanked and actively undermine it, yet it happens nonetheless, that is a spanking that has, in fact, been imposed.  

 

Therefore,  when I am unsuccessful in undermining her resolve, it actually augments her authority and the FLR aspect of the relationship. Trying to get out of it but failing to do so confirms her status as the real “boss.”   

 


It’s a fine line, but if she sticks to her guns in the face of my efforts to delay or avoid, something that might otherwise undermine her authority ends up reinforcing it.  As I said about this last year, “[I]mposing discipline in the face of some mild resistance from me results in a virtuous circle in which her confidence goes up each time she gives me a spanking when I really don’t want one.”

 

I know there’s a lot to unpack in the above, and I think I’m going to leave the topic somewhat open-ended. But, I think it boils down to, I’d like to know how you think Anne should deal with both the repeat offenses (garage door closure) and with separate offenses that happen fairly close in time (my inattention regarding safety issues on my adventure, and the garage door, and the other incident where there was at least one aspect of rule-breaking)?

 


And, what about arguing?  It’s interesting that this seems like something that is bound to happen from time to time in any real DD relationship, yet when I searched for past topics on it to crib for this week’s post I didn’t find much.  So, while we’ve addressed repeat and multiple offenses fairly recently, I don’t think we’ve really taken “arguing” head-on as an independent topic.

 

If you are on the receiving end, how would your disciplinarian deal with you doing something like leaving a garage door open after you’d been spanked for that same thing a day or two before?  How would they deal with multiple but different offenses happening close together?  Would that usually result in multiple spankings?  If so, would they all usually happen in the same session?  Different sessions on the same day?  Spread out over multiple days? What about arguing?  Would that be treated as a separate offense and spanked separately?

 

 

For the disciplinary wives (I recognize few are participating these days, but maybe this “nudge” will help), how do you deal with repeated offenses and multiple different offenses?  Do you have a go-to response if he tries to argue or delay?

 

I hope you all have a great week.


 

132 comments:

  1. We had a similar situation with my chores. After being spanked for forgetting to set up the coffee pot, I did it again the next day and two days after. Mrs. Lion didn't spank me for the second and third offenses. I wrote about this and sat down with her to discuss the situation.

    I told her that based on our earlier experiences with consistent punishment, I quickly learned to do what I was told. I suggested that a zero-tolerance policy for the coffee pot would be effective. It took a few more difficult spankings before I learned.

    This wasn't conscious on my part. I didn't try to forget my chore. I also thought that perhaps I was losing it. Once my wife punished each and every offense, my memory improved. It wasn't a conscious change. The spankings help condition me to perform my chore.

    If you are spanked every single time you leave the garage door open, eventually you will be conditioned to do it without thinking. If you slip (which I do every month or so), a refresher span king renews the habit. It absolutely works.

    By the way, I noticed that my wife's patience was wearing thin after the third spanking. The fourth and fifth were much more painful. She said that she wasn't getting through to me with the milder spankings.

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    1. "I also thought that perhaps I was losing it." Yeah, this is exactly what I've been feeling.

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  2. By coincidence, we had a conversation just in the last few days about how we apply DD. Following that I think that she will be more prone to mete out discipline when necessary. Based on previous experience, I have a pretty good record of not being disciplined for the same thing twice. As much as I crave the discipline, I seem to be incapable of breaking the same rule twice once I’ve been punished for it. I do occasionally get into a lousy mood and get snappy and going forward I think this will become a punishable behavior - at my request. I think this will probably help me get it under control but I suspect there will be repeats on this one. Your comment about requesting punishment for your error a couple of weeks ago rang a bell for me. I drive a pretty fast car and am usually well behaved but some years ago - four or five maybe - I gunned it coming on to a freeway, reckoning that I had time to get round a slower car. I managed it but it was close and I definitely shouldn’t have done it. Probably the most dangerous maneuver I’ve ever done. I was on my own in the car, it wasn’t seen by a cop so there was no way my wife would ever have found out about it. So, long story short, I had to tell her about it and request a punishment, which was severe and deserved. Not only have I never repeated, but even now when I’m presented with a similar situation, it’s primarily the memory of that punishment that keeps me under control. Although overall, I think it’s actually a bit deeper than that. She disciplines me because I’ve done something wrong or upset her in some way. Repeating an offense that’s already been subject to discipline would add a feeling that she was disappointed in me as well, which would feel even worse. TG

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    1. There are times when my need for boundaries and guardrails feels abstract and theoretical, but it gets very concrete when I feel disappointed in myself because I haven't lived up to my own identity-based values or when something I've done has a negative impact on others. I admit that I don't place that high a value on personal safety. If I did, I probably wouldn't be into fast-paced, exposed activities like motorcycles and skiing. But, I do have a thing about endangering or even inconveniencing others. That's what really disappointed me about the diligence and organization failures on my adventure a few weeks ago. Yeah, it could have hurt me, but so could a lot of things inherent in that trip. The bigger source of my anger at myself was it created some inconvenience for others and, under some circumstances, could have endangered others.

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  3. We tried to deal with repeat offenses when we drafted our agreement. On our list of punishable offenses each has a 3 level of prescribed punishment. Repeat offenses get moved up to the next level. However, she has the authority to change or increase any factor of the spanking at any time and the prescribed discipline acts as a guide. I feel you should have been spank for each occurrence of the garage door situation. We also try to punish as soon after the incident as possible. She would not wait till evening, but rather, upon finding the garage door open, immediately spank me for it.
    There is no arguing here, especially about being spanked. If she determines a spanking is needed, I cannot say or do anything to make my point. I must accept her discipline without question AND, be sure to thank her for it afterwards.
    As TG wrote above, there are times I rat on myself and tell her of an offence I have committed. Occasionally, she waives the punishment, but mostly I am spanked for my infraction immediately.

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    1. That’s an important point about no arguing. It comes back to the consensual / non-consensual discussion. We agree to the lifestyle and part of that is giving up the ability to say no when she thinks punishment is warranted. Consensual overall but may be non-consensual in the moment. TG

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    2. The different levels of punishment make a lot of sense to me, though it wouldn't work for us unless Anne changed her approach. She is very binary where severity is concerned, and it's kind of all or nothing.

      "We also try to punish as soon after the incident as possible. She would not wait till evening, but rather, upon finding the garage door open, immediately spank me for it." I agree the timing issue is critical, both in terms of its psychological deterrence but also because it's just way more likely to actually happen.

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    3. We tried levels of punishment. It didn't work. Mrs. lion is binary too. Instead, she varies the duration of the spanking. She uses a timer. Ten minutes for one offense, fifteen for two, etc. She usually doesn't stop when the timer goes off. The durations are minimums. This approach has proven effective for us.

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    4. Duration probably would work better for us than trying to go more severe, but it has limitations in that after ten minutes (or less) my butt is usually pretty numb.

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    5. Spankings immediately following an infraction are a rarity for us, primarily because we have often had kids around, or if it is later at night, our living situation is not sufficiently private for her to do a lot of spanking because of noise.

      I think my wife is pretty binary too. Either I get spanked, or I don't, and if I do, then she spanks about as hard regardless of the situation. I do think she tends to go longer if it is something more serious, but as Dan pointed out, numbness sets in pretty fast, especially if she is using a paddle. That makes going longer kind of pointless at the time, but it does result in longer-felt results.

      For harder punishments, she will often break it up into several rounds, with corner time in between. That helps to return some sensitivity. She has talked about doing spankings several days in a row, but at least so far has not.

      -ZM

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    6. "For harder punishments, she will often break it up into several rounds, with corner time in between. That helps to return some sensitivity." That would help with the numbness, but I wonder whether she'd get annoyed with the multiple sessions on the same day, resulting in a long time commitment on her part.

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  4. I am new to DD and without much experience (I recently got my third disciplinary spanking) but I feel that when it is a safety issue like the garage door that the response should be strict. You should have gotten a spanking for each and every instance. It seems that you doing this continually is making an objection to the rule, at least subconsciously. You clearly don't think it is that big an issue. But that is not up to you! I would think the spankings should each be harsher until you get the message that 1) you need to close the garage door every night and 2) you need to stop bucking your wife.
    Arguing about being spanked is just as bad. You asked for this DD relationship and now you are objecting? No way. That should be an additional spanking every time you argue. Isn't one of the purposes of DD, to reduce conflict?
    I know that if I argued with my husband about being spanked, I would never get one again. Which is the exact opposite of what I want, and also what you want. Talk about mixed messages! I want my husband to get just one message: Control me!
    Cynthia Ellen

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    1. It seems that you doing this continually is making an objection to the rule, at least subconsciously." It's impossible to know because, by definition, if it's subconscious I'm not aware of it. But, it doesn't feel that way. It's definitely the case that I don't handicap personal safety risks the way she does, though I think even our kids would agree that my wife is one of those people who constantly finds new and inventive things to have a safety concern about. But, that said, I do recognize and agree that our otherwise safe suburban neighborhood seems to have attracted some ballsy thieves who have graduated from porch pirating to boldly walking into open garages, even when the owners are walking around doing yardwork, and running off with things like expensive bicycles. (FYI, most of my recent incidents of leaving it open have been during the day, not at night.)



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  5. I don't know what a wife *should* do in these situations, but I know what I would want her to do in my DD relationship. Leaving a door open accidentally would not be a spankable offense to me until after there was a serious warning not to do it. Then, arguing is a necessary part of communication, and I don't like to be censored. As long as she has the ultimate power, then discipline should keep things from getting out of hand.

    The bottom line is that, if my wife has a legitimate and justifiable reason to spank, then she should be enthusiastic about being afforded this special opportunity. If she passes up the chance, where is her passion for these conditions we've taken the time to establish? As I think I've written here before, I would require her to be into this. If she's reluctant, it's a no-go. My desire for DD falls completely flat. I won't push her into spanking, giving or receiving.

    I do believe that punishment for carelessness or forgetting something would be effective for me. My wife isn't into discipline, but on occasion she'll get upset about something I do or don't do in the course of everyday living. After that, I'll find myself thinking about it whenever the situation comes up. It sticks somehow. DD would make it stick even harder, and that's the psychology I find exciting.

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    1. "Then, arguing is a necessary part of communication, and I don't like to be censored. As long as she has the ultimate power, then discipline should keep things from getting out of hand." Makes a lot of sense to me.

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  6. Hi Dan,
    Good topic, as always! I will comment some on a few things you wrote here, and then answer the questions in a separate post.

    “So, all the new openness around sex seems and the breakdown in societal mores around sex and kink is correlated with less sex actually taking place.” - It is certainly interesting that these two trends are happening at the same time, since one would expect the opposite. Like most things involving social trends, or for that matter anything involving people and their behavior, the underlying causes - and linkages between different things - are likely too complex to really understand. But a few things that could be driving the reduction in sex might be less face to face human interaction in general (especially among younger people), complicated new unwritten social rules such as a guy has to be careful to not make “unwanted advances” (which is kind of hard to know until you try) and consent has to be clear (kind of difficult for those who don’t ever talk openly about sex), and ironically, the ever-present availability of erotic content on the internet. Why go to effort and take the risks when you can just stay home, chat and watch videos on social media, play games, and fulfill the occasional urges by masturbating while looking at the right websites?

    “She does need to get more comfortable with not only giving an order but with actually making it stick in the face of some moderate resistance or questioning.  But, I also need to get much better at simply doing what she tells me to do, without argument or undermining.” - This is pretty much where my wife and I are most of the time.

    “I should have still asked for a spanking for the separate inattention-related problem, but I didn’t.” - I find asking for a spanking to feel like the opposite of it being imposed (which is one of the most important things for me).

    “...as several days went by, the connection between offense and accountability seemed more and more strained, until I finally dropped all intentions around asking to be spanked for it.” - I think this is weakened connection between offense and accountability is the prime reason that many spankings don’t happen for me. My wife wants to spank me, it gets put off, and after a while it just seems pointless and even petty for her to spank me for something that happened too far back. Kind of a “statute of limitations” type of thing. 

    Running out of room here, so will continue in separate post…

    -ZM

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    1. "Why go to effort and take the risks when you can just stay home, chat and watch videos on social media, play games, and fulfill the occasional urges by masturbating while looking at the right websites?" I suspect this has something to do with it, though you're right, it's very complicated. I do wonder whether all the opportunities for "fake" connections and engagement ends up meaning people don't feel a need for "real" engagement, including sex.

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    2. I think you are right about the fake connections and engagement largely being substituted for real engagement, no matter how poor a substitute virtual interactions are for the real thing.

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  7. Now on to the arguing part…
     
    “Yet, part of that resistance seems almost inevitable to me, precisely because things are starting to seem more ‘real.’  When she gets more assertive and more aggressive in ordering spankings, I try harder to get out of them. It’s unfair and counterproductive, but isn’t it also precisely what you would expect when discipline starts becoming truly imposed? I’ve said I want it to feel non-consensual, and when I genuinely don’t want to be spanked and actively undermine it, yet it happens nonetheless, that is a spanking that has, in fact, been imposed.”

    “Therefore,  when I am unsuccessful in undermining her resolve, it actually augments her authority and the FLR aspect of the relationship. Trying to get out of it but failing to do so confirms her status as the real ‘boss.’” - I fully agree with this whole statement. It might be a little unfair to want my wife to be this way and to steamroll my resistance, but it is what I want. And if she does, her authority will be much stronger and more evident than if I just meekly submit every time.

    Also, I think there is an important thing to keep in mind here. My wife very much wants to be fair. She has the authority to spank me at any time for any reason or without reason. But we both seem to have a good understanding that if she spanks me for a reason, then that reason needs to be real. We do not do spankings for made up reasons, since that is completely unsatisfying for both of us, and is in fact a step down from roleplay spankings. Consequently, while it may be counterproductive at times to try to talk my way out of a spanking, if I am in fact sure that I did nothing wrong, I am doing her a favor by arguing my case, because if she spanks me and later finds out that she was completely wrong - and the truth generally does make itself known - then she will feel horrible about unjustly punishing me, and that too can be a huge blow to her self-confidence to assert her authority as a disciplinarian. 
     
    I think the way you stated it was perfect, and it sums up my feelings exactly: “It’s a fine line, but if she sticks to her guns in the face of my efforts to delay or avoid, something that might otherwise undermine her authority ends up reinforcing it.  As I said about this last year, ‘[I]mposing discipline in the face of some mild resistance from me results in a virtuous circle in which her confidence goes up each time she gives me a spanking when I really don’t want one.’” This is exactly how I want it to be.
     
    -ZM

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    1. "We do not do spankings for made up reasons, since that is completely unsatisfying for both of us, and is in fact a step down from roleplay spankings." I totally agree.

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  8. Dan- you stated-" While the incidents kept piling up, Anne didn’t give me another spanking. She threatened it multiple times, but it didn’t actually happen. I will own up to it; the failure at follow-through was attributable mainly to my efforts at delay"
    There are times when our wives simply do not want to take the time to spank, or she is just not in the mood at the time. I too have been threatened to be spanked and gotten away with it more because she just wants a break from having to deal with my bad behavior. She expects me to behave for more than a day or two. She is of course correct I should be able to behave but sometime the circumstances make it extremely difficult. Yesterday was move day. I am expected to do all the work to get us packed up and ready to move to another RV park. However, procrastination got the best of me there were a lot of things I could have and should have done ahead of time to get us ready but did not. Instead, I waited till move day (yesterday). She was not happy that nothing was done, and She gave me a motivational spanking to get me moving. We both agreed that I needed it. The problem was she did not directly address the elephant in the room. The Stress that always occurs we we move causes me to be impatient and sometime short with her or others. When we got to our destination the stress of parking the RV in the spot and getting setup and all the other things that I needed to get done caused me to yell at her about something totally out of her control. She threatened to spank me but instead put me in the corner but only for a short period of time. So, I guess in sense I did not get away with it but at the same time I am not sure that the punishment was sufficient. Evidenced by the fact that out of the blue today I started to put guilt on her about something else. She had made it very clear this morning that she had no intention of putting me over her knee today and she expected me to behave. I don't really know why I am having some of these issues other than that I am selfish. Now, this evening I will not be going over her knee for a well-deserved spanking she is just too frustrated not only with me but other circumstances which is why she made the edict that I better behave. When she started to cry, I apologized for my poor behavior and agreed to whatever punishment she saw fit. Tonight, I will be doing chores or standing in the corner or sitting on the bed facing the wall until she decides it is time for me to go to bed. I'm sure she will address it the next time I am over her knee if she remembers. Which brings up another subject of self-reporting in some kind of journal so that she can address it when she is in the mood.
    Ward

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    1. "There are times when our wives simply do not want to take the time to spank, or she is just not in the mood at the time. I too have been threatened to be spanked and gotten away with it more because she just wants a break from having to deal with my bad behavior. " This is totally understandable.

      "She had made it very clear this morning that she had no intention of putting me over her knee today and she expected me to behave. I don't really know why I am having some of these issues other than that I am selfish. Now, this evening I will not be going over her knee for a well-deserved spanking she is just too frustrated not only with me but other circumstances which is why she made the edict that I better behave."

      I can understand how this can actually be worse punishment. Many people here comment that a spanking wipes the slate clean, but a few weeks ago someone here (I don't recall who, maybe Celia?) made the point that sometimes the wife doesn't *want* the slate to be clean yet.

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    2. We have not really talked about how a spanking can wipe the slate clean but in some ways you may be correct. The issue is I said some really hurtful things to her in the last couple of days. Yesterday, she was driving, and I said something on a call that got her really upset so much so that she hung up on me pulled the car over and had a screaming and crying session. Let's just say it related to the difference between the way I expect her to deal with my family and my feelings towards her family we both have irresponsible family members and I have differing views on helping out her family because it stresses her out and I want to protect her from that but my interference ended up causing way more stress for her and she made it very clear on the phone that she would do what she determined to be the right thing with her family and that for me to make an issue out of it was a lake of trust in her judgement and that is why she was so frustrated with me. Again, we are on this you are not getting a spanking, but you better behave mantra. I agreed that I was wrong and asked her to punish me in other ways if she was not willing to paddle me. I was given several chores that were to be done by the time she got
      home and I would be spending most of the evening in the corner or taking care
      of whatever she desired. I was miserable all evening not because I was being punished but because I did not think the punishment would in any way relieve my guilt. I am sure she wants me to continue to feel guilty. I accept that and we did have a talk before bed that I needed her to address her frustration with me the next time she has me over her knee. Some of the spanking i have gotten have not been sever enough to be memorable enough to deter the behavior. I only remember one or two that actually left me sore for more than a few hours. There was one that left me sore for over a week I Suggested to her that she should give me a similar spanking the next time and I told her I hoped it would hurt that bad so that I would think more before I speak. All she said was that she hoped it would too.
      I also wanted to comment on repeat offenses. I have a bad habit of leaving cabinet doors or drawers open at least partially. She has told me how much it frustrates her, but she has only ever mentioned it one time when I was getting spanked. I have gotten better about it but it still happens way more than it should.
      I should have a very hard spanking coming but if I know her it will not be until closer to the weekend or over the weekend. I have thought about having a journal to keep track of the things I believe she should punish me for since she seems to be more into Maintenance spankings. Perhaps a journal would jog her memory of why she was upset with me in the first place. I'm a bit jealous of the husbands whose wives are strict enough to spank them in at least the proximity of the offence. The one severe spanking I got was almost immediately after the offence. She pulled me out of bed and paddled me until I was numb and then some. My but was scratchy and scaly and sore for the next week.

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    3. "I also wanted to comment on repeat offenses. I have a bad habit of leaving cabinet doors or drawers open at least partially." Same here. My wife comments that our kitchen is often like a scene from The Sixth Sense.

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  9. Finally your questions…

    “I’d like to know how you think Anne should deal with both the repeat offenses (garage door closure) and with separate offenses that happen fairly close in time (my inattention regarding safety issues on my adventure, and the garage door, and the other incident where there was at least one aspect of rule-breaking)?” - This is an interesting question because it deals with different categories of infractions.

    Leaving the garage door open is merely forgetfulness, perhaps driven by distractions; I am pretty sure that you never made a conscious decision to leave the garage door open. Forgetfulness is a thing, and it is likely to get worse with age, and there never seems to be a lack of distractions in life. So, the only way to be sure that you close it is to make it into so much of a habit that it becomes automatic and you do it without even thinking.

    If she spanks you every time this happens, then it will pretty quickly become a habit, so I would treat this as an “if this, then that…” sort of thing. Having said that, I wouldn’t necessarily escalate the punishment quickly, nor would I become too frustrated, since it is completely unintentional and good habits take time to form. One note: I would make sure that the garage door doesn’t have a problem. In my previous house, there were a couple of months of the year that the sun was the right height in the sky, so if I closed the door during certain times of the day, it would reopen.

    As for not attending to the safety issue, it is somewhere in between. You probably didn’t make a conscious decision to never attend to these things, but rather you decided to attend to them later. This basically just reminds me of the picture a few weeks back, where she says “You didn’t ‘forget’ - you put it off because you didn’t want to do it, then we go busy and now it’s still not done. ‘Which adds up to a spanking.’”

    As for the “rule breaking,” that seems unequivocal. It obviously merits a serious punishment, since it was a willful decision and clear defiance of the rule and her authority.

    “If you are on the receiving end, how would your disciplinarian deal with you doing something like leaving a garage door open after you’d been spanked for that same thing a day or two before?” - With our lack of consistency, who knows? But what she should do is spank me each time it happens, and if a couple of incidents stack up, she could of course just give me one bigger spanking for the multiple times.

    “How would they deal with multiple but different offenses happening close together?” - At least for me, mixing issues up in one session just doesn’t work. I would keep the spankings for different issues separate, especially because of the entirely different character of each offense (intentional or not, etc.). If this means multiple sessions, I think she should do them on sequential days and in increasing order of importance: forgetfulness, procrastination, and finally outright rule-breaking.

    “What about arguing?  Would that be treated as a separate offense and spanked separately?” - That is a tough one, as I wrote in an earlier post. The idea my wife and I have had, but never done, is that if she says I am to be spanked, I could choose to “challenge” it and explain why I thought I shouldn’t be spanked. If she agreed with my reasoning, then fine, no spanking. If my points are all valid, but she still thinks I deserve a spanking, then I get a spanking. If she thinks my reasoning is weak and I am just trying to get out of the spanking, then she gives me the spanking and then some additional pre-determined punishment for trying to get out of it, like 50 hard swats with the paddle or 12 stripes with the cane or something.

    -ZM

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    1. I have to disagree with you on the garage door issue. A few weeks ago I forgot to put an appointment in the calendar which caused a small problem later. I had done this many times before but this was “a bridge too far” and I paid for it. Somehow I have managed to avoid forgetting on all occasions since. I’m sure if I forget again I’ll be punished again but that session certainly seems to have cured my forgetfulness on that particular item. So yes, I think repeated offenses should each be punished, even if unintentional. TG

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    2. ZM here. Don’t feel like signing in again… I’m not sure what you are disagreeing with, since I too said: “ If she spanks you every time this happens, then it will pretty quickly become a habit.” I wasn’t saying Dan shouldn’t be punished because it was unintentional, but rather that if she does punish every time, it will soon become habit to close the garage door! However, I would probably expect a less harsh punishment than for deliberate rule-breaking, since defiance against her authority may get (and certainly deserves) a strong response.

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    3. "One note: I would make sure that the garage door doesn’t have a problem. In my previous house, there were a couple of months of the year that the sun was the right height in the sky, so if I closed the door during certain times of the day, it would reopen." I've had that happen too, and it's possible with *one* of the doors, but it's happened with different doors at different times. So, I don't think it's a sunlight-on-the-sensor issue.

      "As for the “rule breaking,” that seems unequivocal. It obviously merits a serious punishment, since it was a willful decision and clear defiance of the rule and her authority." Honestly, it wasn't willful or defiant in the moment. It was one of those times when the rules kind of went right out of my head and it didn't really occur to me until after she pointed out that part of the behavior that I was defending did include an aspect that broke a rule that not only we had agreed on, but I had requested.

      I like your idea for how to deal with arguing, particularly since it would require some pretty detailed communication. I get the sense that you and your wife already do that very well. In our case, I tend to "talk" to her in the form of journal entries, but there isn't a lot of face-to-face conversation about specific DD issues.

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    4. Ah. Sorry ZM, I may have misunderstood your comment. TG

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    5. Hi Dan, that makes sense about the rule breaking not being willful or defiant. I clearly made an incorrect assumption about that. Just because there is an agreed upon rule, it doesn't mean that you were thinking about the rule as you were (inadvertently or mindlessly) breaking it.

      As for communication, I agree that my wife and I do pretty well on that front. In fact, we talk about DD a lot more than we practice it. However, it is interesting that even though we mention DD just about every day, and talk about it often and at length, it still sometimes makes me uncomfortable to talk about it.

      -ZM

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    6. "However, it is interesting that even though we mention DD just about every day, and talk about it often and at length, it still sometimes makes me uncomfortable to talk about it." I get it. Do you think that one reason you feel uncomfortable about it is that the more you talk about it, the more likely a session is to happen?

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    7. That is certainly one reason, but I think even more than that, I am just shy when it comes to talking about it. This probably comes at least somewhat from me not understanding my own desires all that well. I guess I really have no idea why!

      -ZM

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    8. I get that. It's kind of an inherently embarrassing topic.

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  10. This is fairly simple in our house. If there are multiple offenses, then there are multiple spankings, usually on different days. If it is a repeat offense then it is multiple spankings, again on different days.

    One exception was last week we had to put off a spanking on Wednesday until Friday, due to work schedule. So, on Friday I got what I think was 100 with our rubber paddle 😟 before work and well over 200 with three implements on Friday evening.

    Sadly, we’ll be increasing the price for leaving dirty clothes in the bathroom to three spankings after this last occasion. If something breaks my routine I can get distracted and I forget. And my butt pays!

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    1. A couple years ago this meant that for multiple, repeat offenses that were fairly serious for me, I got 2 a day, 3 days per week, for a month. It was just plain awful.

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    2. I finally got rid of our rubber paddles. They were the one tool we've used that was just too much.

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    3. I hate it! We have limited it to one side, as the other has square edges that cut skin too easily. Ann doesn’t stop at the first sight of blood, but it is something that shortens a spanking.

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    4. :I got 2 a day, 3 days per week, for a month." Wow! "Just plain awful" sounds about right.

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    5. That was our problem with the rubber instruments. Very prone to cutting skin.

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    6. Hi Dan and Fred:

      I am a long-term lurker, but I felt compelled to make a few personal observations and comments re "rubber" straps and paddles.

      My wife currently has several rubber straps, and be believes they are her most effective "implements." One of the reasons she particularly likes them is the relative low "female exertion" to high "male response" ratio. My wife is a smaller woman, and also a chronic repetitive motion injury of her right wrist, but with these she can quickly obtain, and then easily maintain, for as long as necessary, my COMPLETE attention!

      I note that Aunt Kay had long listed multiple rubber implements on the old DWC Website. As I recall, she offered three different models: (1) the "Ferrule" (a short, flexible rubber paddle); (2) the "Dominator" (rubber strap); and (3) the "MagnaStrap" (another, but narrower, rubber strap). Aunt Kay certainly believed there were "circumstances" that required these types of "seriously corrective" implements.

      As I understand it, the major reasons that rubber implements are so effective (painful) is that: (1) Rubber straps can be significantly "stiffer" than leather, so it is easier to accelerate (transfer energy from the hand/arm to) the implement; (2) They are substantially denser (heavier) than either leather or wooden implements -- more "(kinetic) energy" accumulated by the end of swing; and (3) Yet they are flexible enough to "conform" to curved surfaces, improving energy transfer to the target(s).

      There are, of course, two other reasons rubber implements can be very painful: Almost all "rubber" has a tendency to be "sticky" and "grab skin" where it makes contact; (A) this leads to high "shear forces" between the surface layer of skin and deeper layers, resulting in tearing between the layers and large blisters / sub-surface bleeding, and (B) EXTREMELY HIGH shear forces at the side edges of the strap -- the sharper the strap edge, the higher the unit-shear force (between the skin that is immediately under the strap and the skin just outside the edge of the strap) -- the skin tears! (Polished wood, and oiled leather, minimize both of these problems.)

      (We had originally purchased a couple rubber implements from commercial vendors, but my wife became very upset with the amount of sub-surface skin damage ("A") and external bleeding ("B") those commercial products caused. So, she directed me to investigate why this was happening (see above), and to design/produce some straps that were just as effective, but wouldn't "psychologically constrain" her.

      I note that a lot of the commercial rubber implements currently offered (like those we originally purchased) appear to be made out of "conveyor belt rubber": Two rubber sheets sandwiching a fabric reinforcement layer. I also note that conveyor belts (and the types of rubber utilized) are specifically designed to by "extra sticky," to ensure the conveyed products can be rapidly accelerated, decelerated, and transported up and down inclines, without slipping and sliding on the belts!

      (. . . cont.)

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    7. (cont . . .)

      The solution / design I implemented was three-fold:

      (1) I utilized "polyurethane", a flexible synthetic material that is minimally "sticky." Generally 1/4" (6mm) or 3/8" (10mm) thicknesses are ideal, depending upon the desired "severity". Similarly, polyurethane of "stiffness / hardness" between 60 and 100 "durometer" works well; 60d for short straps, 70d for longer straps, and 90-100d for paddles.

      (2) The edges of the polyurethane should be "radiused" with a high-speed carbide router blade. Generally 1/16" to 3/16" radii work best, depending upon strap width, with 2/16" being a good compromise for almost all purposes. After "routing" the edges, I finish by polishing the edges with first #400, then #600, wet and dry aluminum oxide paper. (The radii and polish can reduce the unit-shear at the edges of the strap by factors of 20-100 fold!)

      (3) Finally, to minimize any residual "stickiness", I use silicone spray on the polyurethane (same type of spray that can be purchased at auto-supply stores for use on auto-door weatherstripping). After allowing the spray to dry (lightest silicone oils to evaporate) for several days, I give the strap a final quick cloth-wipe -- smooth and slick, almost like "Teflon(R)”!

      Of course, you can similarly "salvage" most "plain rubber" straps: (1) Radius and polish the edges; (2) Clean the entire strap, then possible spray with a durable polyurethane finish (marine poly); then (3) Apply a silicone lubricant.

      I know: This entry probable should have appeared way, way back in the March 2017 "Favorite Tools of the Trade" forum, but I haven't been "lurking" that long. There had simply been repeated (negative) references to straps in the forum these past couple months, and I was tired of all that "negging" they were getting due to bad designs and poor implementations. Aunt Kay certainly felt that, when well designed, these implements had important purposes. My wife strongly agrees!

      Hope this info has been helpful (and not too long),

      -- Donn

      (P.S. Yes, I am a most certainly a "physics nerd", on the internet, and in real life.)

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    8. Thanks, Donn. I'm generally a math phobe, but physics was one of the only math-oriented courses in high school that I actually liked. So, I actually found your breakdown of why rubber can inflict the damage it does very interesting and entertaining.

      I don't know how much to read into Aunt Kay's instrument choices, because she also had references on the site to the fact that her own husband couldn't take very severe spankings. So, while the DWC website did offer some rubber implements, I wonder how much she personally used them? Of course, she did spank other men . . .

      One other serious problem I found with the "conveyor belt rubber" tools you mentioned . . . they smelled like old tires. I bought one from Cane-iac but threw it away after one day because it made the closet I kept it in smell like an auto salvage yard.

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    9. I can certainly attest to the painfulness of rubber instruments. Since I have a degree in physics, I very much enjoyed the physics-based evaluation. I think it was spot on, especially regarding the mechanism leading to skin damage. In addition to their flexibility allowing them to conform to curved surfaces (thus increasing energy transfer), it is also possible that since the rubber compresses, it may lengthen the impact time a bit. This would of course result in less peak force, but higher total impulse when integrated over time. And since rubber can get going so fast and because it weighs so much, it is hardly an issue to lose a little peak force.

      Physics aside, one thing that I find compelling about rubber is that it leaves a longer lasting burning feeling than other things; you feel "just spanked" longer. But the skin damage usually stops the spanking prematurely.

      As for the "old tire" smell, I never could get that smell to dissipate, so finally we took to just storing the strap in a closed plastic bag. It still stinks when it is taken out, but at least it doesn't stink up our whole bedroom all the time.

      -ZM

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    10. Mrs. Lion generally uses rubber along with leather and wood. She tends to favor the wood and rubber. I *hate* the rubber. Of course, that's the point. Spankings are supposed to hurt enough to encourage improved behavior. As she is fond of saying, "You can avoid a blistered butt by doing what you should."

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    11. They do hurt way more than leather or wood, but in terms of severity and "that's the point," the problem we had and that it sounds like Donn may have solved is they also had a very big tendency to split the skin, brining the spanking to an abrupt halt.

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    12. It has been my experience that beveling, polishing, and silicone lubricating our polyurethane straps COMPLETELY stopped all bleeding and blistering from their use. Of course, this is NOT an "absolute" evaluation, but rather "relative" to what my wife (and her injured wrist) can inflict with those poly-straps. If someone were married to a female-firefighter, regular gym-goer or someone who regularly practiced Tai-chi, I presume "your mileage might vary!" However, I can tell you that my wife can certainly raise blisters, and sometime "blood spotting," during an extended session with her black nylon paddle ("bath-brush style" head and handle).

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    13. Wood and rubber split my skin. That doesn't stop my wife. She wipes the blood away and keeps going. The bleeding always stops within a minute or two of the spanking ending.

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    14. P.S. To expand and clarify, my wife can easily raise a "hellacious fire" (like multiple blowtorches) with either of the straps or that paddle!

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  11. My butt is in bad shape right now. I have a bad spanking coming Friday and another Monday. A recently acquired pup is currently dictating our schedule.

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    1. I feel for you. On both fronts -- the spanking and the pup. I feel like most of our life planning these days revolves around two dogs.

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  12. Oh wow. We are going through this NOW ! Dev is a germaphobe. I need to change clothes when I come in from a class I teach. The other day I took a shirt off but left it on the floor in the bedroom and place in the laundry. She was VERY upset ! She said I was going to get a very hard spanking once she calmed down. Now I’m pretty nervous. The next day she called me upstairs and said the four words that make me weak in the knees. “ Bring me the paddle “ I returned. She was calm and explained the reason for being there. She gave one of the longest and hardest paddings in quite a while. She said this was going to “ be a marathon “ with a few more sessions to follow. She did a marathon last November that totaled four spankings. I’m guessing she’ll do another today. She says she wants me to remember. Others have asked if spankings work ? I can attest that they do. She hates the word ain’t. I’ve been over her knee many times for saying that. I no longer use that word. JR

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    1. My butt wouldn't last long in your house, JR. Whatever the opposite of a germaphobe is, that's me. Also, I not only use the word "ain't", I think it is a great word for adding emphasis in certain contexts.

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    2. Well. No marathon but a second spanking was given a couple days later. Less intense but still effective. All good again.

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    3. Good (that there was no marathon). Glad you're past it.

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  13. Hi Dan. Like many others, I agree Anne should spank you each and every time the garage door is left open, or for any other thing you continue to do that annoys her. I get spanked quickly after any misbehavior. In my house, we agreed that leaving the toilet seat up or having my cell on the dinner table during dinner would result in an immediate spanking, and it only took a week or 2 before those bad habits stopped. Arguing has not been an issue for us, but if it was, it would stop if it resulted in a spanking each and every time. I self report, even for as little as a half a beer over my limit. That inevitably results in a very hard paddling with little warm up. Yesterday was Maintence day, and she gave me a sound, 5 minute spanking. I had an extra half a beer last night, and will be over her lap again this afternoon, leaving me with a very sore bottom. She is doing exactly what I requested by giving me the gift by holding me accountable. Therefore, it seems like it's my responsibility to her to be completely honest.

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    1. I've always thought that self-reporting would be a game changer for us where consistency is concerned, yet I find it difficult to impossible to carry through on in practice.

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    2. Mrs. Lion doesn't like self reporting. DD, for her, not me, is partially a game; a useful game. She likes catching me break a rule. The spanking for her is just a necessary consequence. Even though my offense may annoy her, she likes catching me committing it. This strange game (for her) keeps her on her toes. As a result, she is very good at catching and spanking for each and every offense.You might think that I get spanked a lot. I don''t. My survival instinct keeps me behaving.

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    3. Anne doesn't describe it as a game, but there are clearly aspects of it that amuse her, particularly my transparent efforts to avoid or delay.

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    4. I have often said here that DD at times is more of a game to my wife and more real for me. In the beginning, it was totally a game for her, now it depends on the situation and it can be a game for her or totally real and serious. Also, she likes to muddy the waters even further by doing roleplay and spanking (surprisingly these spankings are just about as painful as any others). And when she wants to spank me just because she feels like it, she likes to try to come up with some reason, so that sometimes causes some tension; I am fine with her spanking me "just because," but if is "just because" then don't make up a fake reason.

      -ZM

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    5. "I am fine with her spanking me "just because," but if is "just because" then don't make up a fake reason." I think I too would have a bigger problem with a fake reason than no reason, though I don't think I'd bee that OK with either.

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  14. Repeat offenses can be annoying for both parties. It’s not something that I want to occur, and it can certainly irritate her. We concur with the general consensus that each occurrence should be addressed separately, as soon as practical and with increasing severity. That said, we have a solution that works for us and that I’ve mentioned here before. It is so effective that we’ve only used it once.

    An axiom for us is that I try to be sensitive to issues and rules that she considers important even if they are rather minor in the course of world events. For some it may be the garage door. One of them for us is my tendency to leave fingerprints on the stainless steel refrigerator or to leave sticky residue on the handle. It’s not something that I would normally notice, but it happens when I’m either in a rush or preoccupied with something else like work. It’s unconscious but also unintentional.

    Anyway, here’s the rule. The first three occurrences in the month are met with increasingly hard spankings. That certainly works at least for a few days. If I make the same mistake a fourth time in the month, then my spanking comes only after my balls have been completely emptied. While we don’t usually play with any bondage, we both agreed my hands would have to tied to endure that ordeal.

    The results are indisputable at least in our household. Only once did I mess up a fourth time. I can assure you that there was no fifth time that month nor has there ever been a month with four repeat offenses since.

    I’ve mentioned this before, and some of the participants on this site agree and others don’t. Obviously, to each his own. However, if the goal is to truly alter and improve behavior, I strongly suspect that this will achieve that objective, or at least move you well down the path, in more relationships than not.

    For those of you facing the problem of repetitive offenses and who really want to change, maybe you should consider discussing this option with you Special Other.

    Graham

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    1. That sounds like a very effective system, Graham. I do agree that if a behavior keeps happening, something needs to change to address it. I think that's especially true for things like dirty refrigerator handles, garage doors, phones at the table, etc. -- because those things are small enough that an extra dose of discipline really should work.

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  15. Just checking in late this week and reading the comments so far. I am struck with the fact that so many of us face and are talking about being disciplined for things (like the garage door, turning off the lights, spilling coffee in the hall etc.) that are important to our wives but probably was not what we had in mind when we asked for or agreed to discipline. When we started the behavior moderation goals were for what I thought of as “big” things like smoking, excessive drinking, masturbation without permission, shading the truth and temper tantrums. Those issues still occur very rarely today, but were the focus of the first few years of our DD relationship

    Today most discipline is about the day to day things that may seem trivial to me but are important to her. As I think about it this is probably where most successful female led relationships go to. Maybe this is what domestic discipline is really about. But when discipline begins to focus on these everyday things she really cares about, she is really taking charge and making it more about what is important to her.
    It was no part of my spanking fantasy that I would find myself keeping an appointment with her strap for leaving the refrigerator door ajar again, but more and more that is what is happening.
    Alan

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    1. Alan, I agree with you. It's a little hard to articulate, but I've found that over the course of 15+ years of DD, my "point of view" has changed or become more nuanced with respect to who its about or who it benefits. Like you describe, when we began it was focused on "big" things and, in particular, on things that I initiated, i.e. things that made me feel particularly guilty or for which I had a particular desire to be held accountable. The focus was really on bringing about a change in me.

      Over time, I've come to think of DD more in terms of it bringing out a change in me but with that change as a means to an end; the end being that *she* feels better because she's held me accountable, as opposed to *me* feeling better because I've been held accountable. It's a subtle distinction, but I think it's a real one.

      I also suspect that one reason DD trends over time toward addressing "trivial" items is that those are the things on which it's most likely to work.

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    2. "But when discipline begins to focus on these everyday things she really cares about, she is really taking charge and making it more about what is important to her." - Absolutely agree. DD becomes more and more real as she begins to realize that she can benefit from it.

      "I also suspect that one reason DD trends over time toward addressing 'trivial' items is that those are the things on which it's most likely to work." - I agree that DD works very well at changing little habits. But those small irritations often turn out to be pretty huge when they accumulate over years. Also, I have found that DD works equally well for us on larger issues, as long as I am truly onboard about wanting to change.

      The thing that I have found interesting over the years is just how effective of a tool DD is for facilitating deep communication, and I have been surprised at just how much my mindset has changed about different things as a result of me really understanding her perspective. Maybe if I would just listen, I could get to the same place without DD, but for me DD seems to help the process along, particularly since it plays to my deep fantasies.

      -ZM

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    3. I remember the moment my wife first brought up behavior that she didn't like, that I hadn't thought of. It was something regular, worth bringing up, neither a major goal nor a small lapse. I remember feeling slightly alarmed about it, and defensive. Looking back, our relationship changed when she did that. She hasn't really spanked much for it, but I respect her more in that area and am more mindful of other things I do that she could bring up.

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  16. I hope all my replies aren't annoying you. We started with "trivial" rules and have sustained them over the last 5 years. My wife still can't bring herself to punish me when I upset her. Too bad. That's why I wanted us to start DD. Meanwhile, the toilet seat is never left up and I almost always set up the coffee pot for the next morning.

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    1. Not at all. Mine seems to have trouble using it for things like disrespect, which I can't quite understand. It seems like that is one of the first a wife would latch onto as an appropriate offense for DD.

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    2. My wife doesn't hesitate to use DD for my bad attitudes and grumpiness, but at least so far has never spanked me specifically because of disrespect. I think that at least partly because the whole thing feels a bit unfair to her when she punishes me, it is somehow harder for her to punish me for something that affects her too directly?

      -ZM

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  17. I think there are two things going on here. First, spanking IMHO is not really a solution for true relationship issues. That may be a fantasy, but it's not generally realistic. Spanking is, on the other hand, a great way to deal with lesser issues that create stress in either party's life or that simply annoy one's partner. That includes garage doors, toilet seats, refrigerator doors, not paying attention, etc.

    Secondly, I think that most folks on this site are mature and considerate of their partners and other people. Most of us simply don't commit some of the serious offenses sometimes mentioned here like over drinking or abusive language. Maybe some of you do occasionally, but I'm guessing it's extremely rare. And while things like that may merit a good thrashing, there are underlying issues that need to addressed outside the realm of spanking and domestic discipline.

    Again, just my two cents. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

    Graham

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    1. I'm not sure about the "true relationship issues," but it probably depends on how you define those. There was, for example, a couple on here who used DD to deal with a husband who had a habit of belittling the kids, to the point that the wife moved out at one point with the kids. The husband suggested spanking, and she agreed to try it. Apparently, it worked.

      I would also say that in my own marriage it helped correct problems with the underlying power dynamic. My wife had issues asserting herself, while I had a big personality. When we got into arguments, she tended to sulk or flounce out, imitating the kind of passive-aggressive dispute resolution she saw at home. I think DD did help her become more assertive and less passive-aggressive, which I think counts as a true relationship issue.

      I don't think I have a problem with abusive language, but I definitely do have a tendency toward getting snarky or arrogant. And, binge drinking has been an ongoing issue. I'd be lying if I said that those issues were "extremely rare." I agree with you that DD probably isn't that likely to have an impact on over-imbibing, though I think it does help reinforce some guardrails. I don't have any reason to think it would not work on the snarkiness; she just hasn't really tried, at least not consistently.

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    2. I'm not sure about this. I think DD can work pretty well even on some more serious issues. Also, as I love to mention, the "small" issues can have profound effect when added up over years, and even changing some little things can greatly influence the course of your life. Also, as I mentioned above, DD has changed my mindset on several things, which I never would have thought possible since these were pretty deeply rooted things.

      I don't see it so much that DD doesn't work on bigger issues, but rather that DD generally (NOT ALWAYS) works best in strong relationships. If you have a very poor, damaged relationship with a lot of accumulated hard feelings between you, probably adding DD to the mix wouldn't be the best idea until you can get some of the other things worked out. If your relationship is generally pretty great, with lots of love, mutual respect, honesty, and open communication, then DD can help it move to a whole new level that you never would have thought possible.

      -ZM

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    3. "[E]ven changing some little things can greatly influence the course of your life." I couldn't agree more.

      I agree that DD can help address serious issues, but you're right that it's unlikely to help (and could make things worse) if the relationship is fundamentally bad.

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    4. ZM wrote “I'm not sure about this. I think DD can work pretty well even on some more serious issues.”
      It absolutely can work for serious issues but they can take longer and both have to “buy in” to the goal. Spanking alone is not enough for major issues. However it may be for less urgent things like housekeeping habits, things that annoy her etc.
      This is only a generalization that probably has many exceptions: but I believe the big things tend to come up and hopefully get resolved in the early years of a female led DD. Our experience is that stress or other factors can trigger some of those behaviors long after we thought they were “modified”. And she does deal with them if it is necessary.
      But for us preventive spankings are back on the agenda and she is very comfortable issuing a very credible threat to spank because it really works better than ever. So mostly as I said above actual spankings other than the preventives are triggered by smaller things that annoy her or anger her. I think that is the nature of a mature DD relationship where her authority has been firmly established
      Alan

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    5. Alan, I've thought a lot about trying to put preventatives more firmly on the agenda. I do think they can be very effective.

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    6. I became a believer when I realized how well they work. In almost 20 years using them I think she spanked me once or possibly twice when we returned home or checked into our hotel. Its the physical memory tha first day or two tha does the magic. It actually works for other spankings too but does wear off
      Alan

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    7. What events does she most typically use them for, or what is the behavior she is focused on preventing?

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  18. I have a sassy mouth with my husband and with others. It has become a big deal in our relationship because it irritates him when it is directed his way and embarrasses him when it is directed at others. Plus I feel a lot of guilt. But I can't seem to control it on my own. I have asked him to put me over his knee as soon as possible after each instance and told him I know spanking would work to curb my sassiness. But he is reluctant to cause his cute little wife any pain. So I keep sassing. I wish I knew what to say to encourage him to adopt DD.
    Cynthia Ellen

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    1. "Plus I feel a lot of guilt. But I can't seem to control it on my own." This describes *a lot* of my DD motivation.

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  19. Well put, ZM. Good communication and honesty are extremely important in DD relationships. Boundaries and limits need to be respected and negotiated on both sides, and both parties should benefit. Some of the issues I get spanked for are small things, but I still struggle with the lifelong challange of keeping my drinking contained to my limit. Even when I don't stay within that limit, which always results with a spanking, I still drink way less than I used to daily. That is a very big deal for me, and has improved all my relationships. Groups and counselors didn't seem to help me change my drinking, but DD has been surprisingly successful. That alone is a great example of why this site seems important. The fact that DD can help relationships improve, lead to more intimacy and change behavior is something most folks are not aware of. Most of us got into it because we had a fantasy about being dominated or spanked, which is definitely wonderful, but DD can have other numerous other benefits as well.

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    1. It's great to hear that it's helped you with drinking. I can't say it's done much for mine, but I think that's because my problem has never been about drinking too often. I don't drink daily and, in fact, it's closer to weekly. The vast majority of days I don't drink at all. My issue is purely about binge-ing. I just don't seem to have a normal "off switch."

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    2. Norton wrote: … “Even when I don't stay within that limit, which always results with a spanking, I still drink way less than I used to daily. That is a very big deal for me, and has improved all my relationships”
      This is an excellent point that we probably don’t talk enough about. Call it the “spillover” benefits of DD. But whatever you call it the benefits can go way beyond the intimate relationship you have. It really can be life altering and a constant force to personal growth.

      Norton makes another point worth noting and that is the importance of modifying some behaviors by reducing their frequency although the behavior isn’t perhaps where you and your wife want it.For him its drinking, but for me it is temper. But whatever it is, if DD has reduced its impact in your life it has to be considered a success if still a work in progress
      Alan

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  20. Much of what is being said here strikes a chord with me too. We started this about twenty years ago and although the first real punishment was for something insensitive that I said at a very opportune moment, the two main things we defined as punishable were incurring unnecessary costs-for example by forgetting to pay a credit card bill on time, and speeding tickets. It’s been many years since either of those two has happened so I guess the punishments worked. So yes, current discipline tends to be for more trivial matters - at least more trivial than it was originally intended for. I agree strongly with the point about removing the ongoing passive aggression after some kind of problem. A spanking both relieves my guilt and lets her work it out of her system and feel better, then we can get on with life without this lingering issue. We’ve always believed that this was one of the main things that has made our marriage so good for over twenty years so far. (And on several occasions felt that other couples we knew would benefit from it - not that we’ve ever suggested it to anyone) She did say a couple of months ago that she feels I have become more inclined to be in a bad mood recently, so I have asked that she address that when it happens. The interesting thing is that I only requested this last week but she says she noticed a significant improvement since she mentioned it - even without punishment. Not sure how to interpret that TG

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    1. "And on several occasions felt that other couples we knew would benefit from it - not that we’ve ever suggested it to anyone." I have one friend who I think desperately needs it, but I'm not sure he would be at all open to it."

      Three or four years ago, I had a really bad streak of speeding tickets. The fines and loss of points on my license got my attention faster than DD would have in that situation. It would also be something where "fairness" might be at issue, since my wife drives faster than I do these days.

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    2. Dan, I don't understand why you might consider yourself getting more speeding tickets than you wife, when she drives faster and more often then you, to be somehow "unfair." Might it be possible, assuming "long term averages," that your wife simply pays better attention to her surroundings (and possible presence of Police Vehicles), than you yourself do?

      If your wife seriously pays much more attention to her environment while speeding, isn't that very good thing? She spots other potential hazards like other errant vehicles, children on bikes, pedestrians (including Police Vehicles) faster than you? Or, is it possible she is better than you at judging locations where it might be "safer" for higher speeds, while the police are patrolling other locations with higher accident rates where speeding is particular hazardous?

      Shouldn't "driving inattentively", for whatever reason, but especially while "speeding," have consequences?!

      Then again, there is always a lot of "randomness" in life.

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    3. I wasn't referring to her getting fewer tickets as unfair. I was referring to any spanking for speeding being unfair, given her own driving habits.

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    4. Donn wrote: “I don't understand why you might consider yourself getting more speeding tickets than you wife, when she drives faster and more often then you, to be somehow "unfair.”

      I am with Dan on this one, particularly knowing how cops profile drivers by gender, type, model and age of car and other factors. Getting stopped is anything but random most of the time, indeed it is often a pretext for snooping around.
      Alan

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    5. Lol. I’m certainly sensitive to that driving a roadster. I always assume that if they’re going to pull anyone over, it’ll be me - like they get extra points for sports cars. As a result I find I’m frequently the slowest thing on the road (leave everyone in the dust pulling away from lights though)

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    6. Sorry - missed signing that one. TG

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    7. TG and Alan, I definitely agree that getting stopped is far from random. There is something to be said for driving boring "grocery grabber" cars.

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    8. Dan: Sorry I did not understand your original comment. When you said "The fines and loss of points on my license got my attention faster than DD would have," that seemed clear to me that the "fines and points" were the actual penalty, and that DD did not enter into the matter / was not a factor (expressed as "DD would have"; was a hypothetical with "would have"). So, you got BOTH tickets and CP. Okay. Double ouch!

      Then again, regardless of the reason (attentiveness or profiling) your STILL GOT MORE TICKETS THAN YOUR WIFE. Are you saying that your wife SHOULDN'T attempt to improve your attentiveness since you obviously, personally realize you ARE BEING PROFILED?

      I tend to assume most situations are what they appear to be, even though I know that police, teachers, etc. tend to "profile" men, boys in classrooms, flashy cars. Without actual "evidence" otherwise, as baseline, I "presume" the circumstances (speeding) truly establish the events (traffic citation).

      Nevertheless, I do sympathize with the "feelings of unfairness" that can arise when being "pulled over" by the police. I drive a mid-90's BMW M3 (bright red, 2900 lbs, with the Euro 350-BHP engine); I am so careful to keep within 5 mph of the speed limit. Regardless, I periodically get "fix-it" tickets on the last 1-2 days of the month; police need to meet their "monthly goals," right?! (And "bright red" is sooooo attention getting!)

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    9. CORRECTION: ". . . regardless of the reason (INATTENTIVENESS or profiling) . . . "

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    10. Hi TG,
      Not sure if you will see this or not, since it is so late in the week.

      "The interesting thing is that I only requested this last week but she says she noticed a significant improvement since she mentioned it - even without punishment. Not sure how to interpret that." - I have had a very similar thing happen regarding not washing my hands very often or very well. She said it was going to be something she would start punishing me for, she threatened a few times, and my habit completely changed without her ever spanking me.

      I think this is not all that surprising. She made me aware of a problem, and because she threatened a pretty awful punishment, because the whole subject made me feel so childish, and so on, it just perfectly played to my desires and fantasies, so it stayed front and center in my mind long enough to change my habits. Had she approached it from just telling me about it (and perhaps nagging) without tying it to DD, undoubtedly I would not have changed, and I would have probably grown weary of her mentioning it.

      I think exactly this is the power of DD!

      -ZM

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  21. Dann raised many different subjects in the introduction to this weeks discussion. I (and my wife, through me as a proxy) would like to comment on many of these, but some comments appear to require establishing of some "common foundations / background" for best understanding among participants. Such foundation and comments will be forthcoming.

    However, right now, I notice that there has been almost no discussion of Dann's observations regarding "openess / acceptance of sexual practices" versus "decreases" in sexual activity amoung younger generations . . .

    "On the one hand, there seems to be less societal shaming of kinky or unconventional sex practices than at any time in modern history, more access to sexual and spanking content on the internet, and the wild success of 50 Shades would seem to indicate a lot of openness to kink, especially kink involving dominance and power dynamics. Yet, studies keep showing that both teenagers and adults are having less sex and delaying it until later in life."

    This certainly an interesting combination.

    If I were to make a first guess, based upon personal experience and observations, there appeared to be an extended period (several decades) in Western Societies when there was a growing disassociation between sexual intimacy and emotional intimacy. Sex became much more "recreational" than "expressive of feelings" (and/or "creational").

    Simultaneously, we learned much more about the neurological foundations of may different peoples different sexual orientations. It is much easier to accept "scientific fact" of human variations that are beyond individuals control, then individuals simply acting kinky / perverted of their own accord

    Thus, is it possible that more and more younger people are coming the realize how much, MUCH better physical intimacy (sexual, or D/s, or DD) is WHEN COMBINED with a strong emotional connection and intimacy. Frankly, I couldn't imagine utilizing either a sexual prostitute or a dominatrix/domina/herrin -- without those emotional connections, it would be little more than masturbation.

    what are the groups thoughts on this theory? What other factors might be at play?

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    1. I do think that a trend that started a couple of generations ago could explain the current drop, though for different reasons. The "sexual" revolution started in the 60s and then really took off in the 70s. The HIV epidemic in the 80s cooled things down for a while, but only temporarily. Then along came smart phones and Tinder "hook up" culture on campuses. One could posit that the current drop is just a typical case of every spike reverts to the norm over time. Maybe "peak sex" started in the 70s, lasted a couple of generations, and now things are just drifting back down.

      I don't fully buy that the current generation is rediscovering emotional intimacy and foreclosing sex without it. Given the popularity of Tinder and similar apps and the prevalence of "hook up" culture, if anything the younger generation seems to draw even less of a connection between sex and emotional intimacy.

      I agree that modern neuroscience probably can be credited for increasing acceptance of gay and lesbian sexual orientation. That's a good thing to the extent it got some people over the hump into recognizing gay rights in marriage, employment, etc. But, I've thought for a while there is an interesting tension building up between the "being gay is hardwired and not a choice" camp, and what we see in the ever-expanding definition of LGBTQ and the whole non-binary element, in which both gender and sexual-orientation are being promoted as fluid, socially constructed, and more a personal choice.

      I'm not casting aspersions on that at all. I support gay marriage and LGBTQ rights, but largely because I lean libertarian (with a small L) on most issues involving personal liberty. I don't buy that gays and lesbians should be afforded equal rights because they don't have a choice in their orientations. Rather, I think they have (or should have) equal rights because the government has no business policing or creating legal hierarchies for consensual sexual behavior.

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    2. I agree that it is a shame that so people have lost the intimacy associated with sex (and DD too, I suppose). There is nothing comparable to a proper session of my wife resolving whatever grievances she has outstanding with a spanking and then sex (starting from a clean sheet, since everything has been addressed).

      J

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    3. J: I so agree about that almost overwhelming, warm feeling after resolving a matter through intimate punishment. I so understand the desire to move forward with personal intimacy afterward.

      Unfortunately, my wife is concerned about creating mistaken linkages (contingencies) between sex and punishment, either before or after. While I may have allowed to worship her to show my gratitude, her rules require my own pleasure must await the days afterward, when it is very special, indeed!

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    4. My wife says one of the reasons she thinks spanking me before sex is expedient is so that I don't take access to the marital bed for granted: I have to "earn it" in a way by having my infractions dealt with first. I also get to make it clear afterwards that I love her in spite of (or because of) the pain and express my love for her. I can't describe the feeling of sex while the blood is still flowing following a very hard spanking. This is the height of what things are like regarding what you said about being combined with an emotional connection.

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    5. Just realised I forgot the sign-off.

      J

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  22. While on the subject I note that one of the more interesting ideas put forth to reforms police practices has been to get them out of traffic altogether. They are not really very good at it and of course there is that unpleasant business of shooting ( mostly) unarmed motorists. Might be worth a try
    Alan

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    1. Alan: I generally agree, but there are some areas of "traffic / vehicle" enforcement that can only be performed by sworn officers.

      I note an informal (non-scientific) observation: I have never learned of any "unarmed motorist shooting events" where the law enforcement officer was either a (1) Motorcycle Officer, or (2) Highway Patrol Officer. It seems all of these types of shootings result from regular police, with only "generalized" skills, trying to perform these more specialized tasks! The highly trained professionals (Moto and HP Officers simply don't make these kind of mistakes. (As least from my reading of many newspapers these past 3-4 decades.)

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    2. Possibly, though I suspect it would be a non-starter for many communities, since they finance police operations through traffic fines. To me, the biggest underlying driver of profiling, over-enforcement of minor traffic violations, and shootings is that many of the stops are pretexts for drug searches. We're paying a hell of a societal cost for a war on drugs that (a) we're losing; (b) makes about as much sense as Prohibition did; and (c) began with efforts by the second most corrupt president in U.S. history (Nixon) and an intellectually unimpressive First Lady who used astrology to try to shape her husband's agenda.

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    3. In fact I think Prohibition and the “war on drugs” both manifest the national hysteria we are prone to. Prohibition produced organized crime, made law breakers of millions and introduced drinking to an entire generation who may never have imbibed.
      The War on drugs, based in equal parts on fear and ignorance, provided cover for the institutional racism we so surreptitiously pursue.
      Both were costly failures that cost billions and destroyed thousands of lives. But what would cops do if we legalized drugs. They might have to try to prevent real crimes and even solve a few, Not nearly so much fun and much more work
      Alan

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    4. "But what would cops do if we legalized drugs. They might have to try to prevent real crimes and even solve a few." You and I seem to have very similar views in this area.

      The double standard is also maddening. I just finished a booked called American Cartel that examines the opioid epidemic and the steps drug manufacturers, and especially wholesalers, took to avoid FDA regs and frustrate enforcement actions, in order to flood some of these tiny rural markets with millions upon millions of pills. Absolutely disgusting in terms of its impact on human lives, yet not a single executive or sales manager at these companies has gone to jail for it.

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    5. Such policies are classist and racist and are in no very small part responsible for the lethal polarization pervading the country. We have created an entire class of people so desperate they will embrace a charlatan as transparent as Trump who promises them he can change things.

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  23. Dan: I think my last comment (re: changing sexual mōrēs vs. frequency of sexual activities) might have been "spam filtered" by Google. Could you investigate?

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  24. As previously noted, my wife wanted to comment on some of Dan's observations and questions. For reasons she feels might be misunderstood by some members of the forum, she does not want to personally participate. That is why she has asked me to raise some of her observations, the background ("perspective") from which she observes, as well as some well-establish psychological science.

    First, I am a "physical scientist", who like most people here who attended college, undertook some type of "Introductory Psychology" course (e.g., PSCH-101) in college. So, I have just enough "formal" psych-knowledge to be somewhat dangerous. Of course, I do have the "common sense" psychological awareness that we all seem to assimilate as we develop in our unique (sub)cultures. Unfortunately, often this "common sense psychology" is incomplete, if not grossly wrong. That is why we have "professionals."

    My wife has a graduate degree in psychology, and lot of post-graduate training (academic, and practical internships). While she has done a variety of work, she describes herself as a "behaviorist." She follows the philosophy that the surest way of solving problems is not through "psychoanalysis" of "life history" and "emotions" (other than possibly learning how certain behavior originally developed), but rather through implementing real-time CHANGES IN BEHAVIOR: (1) Creating new behavioral patterns, and (2) Reducing / eliminating ("extinguishing") existing behaviors.

    My wife started out, and worked many years, mostly in educational settings, helping children with behavior problems. Mostly older children and younger teenagers (8-15yo), some with learning disabilities, but mostly not. Of note, her experience was 75-80% of the referred clients were male. (I don't know if this was profiling (see above "automobile" discussion), or just possible incompatibilities between male learning styles and modern academic settings. My wife believed it was a combination.)

    Later, my wife moved into "Human Resources Management", working for years on "employee performance" (i.e., corp-speak for "behavioral" issues).

    The last few years, she has continued in HR, but now working on "employee development," primarily assisting entry-level women to develop management skills (AKA: "employee behavior management") through formal training in well established management and psychological techniques.

    Of course, me wife brings these skills (and her "common sense" life experience) into our own Wife Led Marriage (which includes forms of corporal punishment).

    That is my wife's background, which establishes her "perspective" on the discussions in this forum.

    My wife says the best way to truly learn a skill / subject is to teach another person that subject. Since she has already (tried) to teach me most of this upcoming info over the past decades, hopefully I can correctly channel her current comments. Hope I don't screw it up (too much).

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    1. Donn wrote: “My wife has a graduate degree in psychology, and lot of post-graduate training (academic, and practical internships). While she has done a variety of work, she describes herself as a "behaviorist."

      Donn, from what you wrote I infer your wife practices cognitive behavior theory as a "behaviorist.” Combining this with the use of corporal punishment has to be extremely effective for many issues.

      I can think of no better background for a woman who has taken the responsibility to be her husband’s disciplinarian. The fact that she also uses a rubber paddle is a little intimidating, I hope you will share any of her techniques and approaches you are comfortable sharing. I think it would contribute a lot to our ongoing effort to describe, discus and understand TTWD.
      Alan

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    2. "She follows the philosophy that the surest way of solving problems is not through "psychoanalysis" of "life history" and "emotions" (other than possibly learning how certain behavior originally developed), but rather through implementing real-time CHANGES IN BEHAVIOR: (1) Creating new behavioral patterns, and (2) Reducing / eliminating ("extinguishing") existing behaviors.

      Based on my very amateurish following of current thinking in psychology, I certainly wouldn't argue with any of that. I've always thought that a lot of performance coaching and general psychology put the cart before the horse, insisting you need to bring about a change in emotion/motivation first and that behavioral changes will follow. In reality, our emotions often follow behavioral changes and physical action, not vice versa.

      Where habits are concerned, I've thought for a while that there is an interesting dichotomy in the popular literature. Several books on habit formation have gone viral, particularly Atomic Habits. I've read several, and some of been at least somewhat helpful. But, I find that pretty much all them devote 90% of their pages discussion how to form good habits but are very, very light on practical techniques for breaking bad habits. I suspect it is because (a) it's much easier to form a habit than to break one; and (b) the best methods for breaking bad habits may involve unpleasant, coercive means, like what we talk about here. I'd be very interested in your wife's perspective on that.

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    3. Alan wrote "I infer your wife practices cognitive behavior theory as a 'behaviorist.'"

      Actually, I think you might mean "Cognitive Behavioral Theory/Therapy" (CBT), which is primarily utilized in improving mental health, by reducing cognitive distortions and improving emotional regulation. CBT seems to be most useful in treating clinical depression and various anxiety disorders.

      Not really what my wife was involved with an helping disruptive children in academic settings, or later working on common performance problems amongst employees in corporate settings.

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    4. CBT has a much kinkier meaning in the BDSM community
      Kinky Old Journalist (KOJ)

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    5. Yes, indeed. CBT (or CBTT = CBT + Torment), can certainly be an effective "aversive" for use in punishments.

      I sometimes wonder why CBT isn't used more often in domestic contexts, especially for certain "related offenses." ("Punishment that fits the Crime," and all that.) It was certainly a common, "classical" / "good-old-fashioned" punishment for certain infractions of young men beginning in Victorian England, and coninuing in use in some families, there (and in the U.S), well into the mid-20th century.

      I've also noticed that there seems to be a certain "cultural homogeneity" in "corporal punishment" always meaning "corporal punishment of the butt" in these forums (not just yours, Dan).

      My family is originally from Scotland, where often "CP" refers to "tawsing the hands."

      My wife's parents were "first generation Americans," so she integrated and retains a lot of their Middle-Eastern (Turkish) culture. CP in the Mid-East often refers to "strapping the feet."

      Both the palms of the hands and the soles of the feet have many more nerve-endings than the buttocks, and can easily experience much higher intensity feelings from much, much less energy input. These areas also demonstrate significant "sensory wind-up," an ever increasing intensity from lighter, but continuous impacts; unlike the "numbing" that often occurs in the buttocks.

      There is also something very special, in both cases, about being "face-to-face" with your partner. Being able to watch her face, and look deep into her eyes, as the emotions play out. (She, herself, is also gaining excellent feedback by watching the recipient's face.)

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    6. Sorry, I forgot to sign that last post: "Yes, indeed. CBT (or CBTT . . . "

      My wife is "Rezan Kiral." (She didn't tell me her middle name was "Kiral" until we had been dating almost a full year. I think I may have been suckered.)

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  25. Aaaagggh! We’re an hour past the worst single spanking I’ve ever received. 342 whacks with our two most severe implements: a homemade fraternity-style paddle and the rubber paddle. My bottom bled, I cried until I was tears and snot, and Ann said, “Your bottom looks like hamburger!”
    The worst part, apart from the current pain, is that I have another spanking coming Monday. I think I’ll be crying before I pull down my pants.

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    1. I asked for it, through our agreement and through my behavior. But dang, our son is over here tonight and I wish I could go commando, so my briefs weren’t sticking to the points that are bleeding. Ouch!!!

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    2. FWIW, I got one this morning, though not nearly as bad as yours.

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    3. Early morning spankings are the worst,perhaps because they are unexpected as you think she has forgotten.Thankfully they are rare.
      Do you mind sharing the offence , minor , major or a combination?

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  26. I'm late to the discussion, but wanted to say that most of my spankings involve repeat offenses. By that I mean that Beth is a very patient woman, up to a point anyway. My first one from her was chore related and it had reached a point where she was seriously annoyed with me. That led to a harder hairbrush session than I would have expected from her and it clearly was out of frustration. Years later, she still gives me ample opportunity to make amends before bringing out the brush. By that point she's made up her mind though and further discussion is pointless.

    Failure to follow through on things I'm supposed to do is the most common reason I am disciplined. Gone are the days when I would behave badly after imbibing or other situations involving bad judgement. The last time anything like that happened was when I overdid it and said some rude things to Beth in front of her mother and sister. There was no opportunity for a second chance and I paid for it after her family had left.

    So I guess I would say that there is a slow build up to most of my spankings and that they are the result of multiple shortcomings on my part.

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    1. Hi Kevin.

      "Failure to follow through on things I'm supposed to do is the most common reason I am disciplined."

      This one rarely happens with us, though I often think it should. I've had much more free time this year than in years past, yet I seem to get even less done.

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  27. WIFE'S PERSPECTIVE (Part 2)

    My wife and I maintain a "Wife Lead Marriage," in all areas except Finances. (Finances are jointly planned and managed.)

    As such, my wife expects me to be a "domestically disciplined" husband: A husband who has undergone training, to learn the expectations and acceptable behavior in my role within the marriage. With my wife's assistance, I have (mostly) "mastered the discipline."

    (That is how my wife, and now myself, define "domestic discipline". Not as a specific method (e.g., corporal punishment of the buttocks (CPB)), but rather a process of learning and perfecting behavior.)

    My wife believes in utilizing all available methods of learning and training to achieve my maximum conformance to her standards. (This was NOT my original request to her (which was much narrower): Her help to improve a narrow range of my behaviors, using only one method (as was/is likely the case with most members of this forum). However, she insisted that, for her to participate, it must be a WLM, and she would have final authority over all "goals" and "training methods." She further insisted I must ALWAYS abide by two rules (no exceptions or violations, or the WLM and training would terminate): (1) I would always completely cooperate and assist her in my "mastering the disciplines;" and (2) I would always be completely "open," "forthcoming" and "honest" in regards to my behavior and effects of training.) (Always being cooperative, open and honest are obviously core values for any functional marriage of any type, but critical for WLM’s and most training methods.)

    Since my wife is a psychologist and "behaviorist," she mostly relies upon "Operant Conditioning" (OC) theory (sometimes also called "Instrumental Conditioning" or "Instrumental Learning") for training and perfecting my behavior.

    (Cont. . . .)

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  28. OPERANT CONDITIONING FOUNDATIONS (Part 1)

    The cornerstone of "Operant Conditioning (OC) Theory" is the well-tested observation that any (non-instinctual/non-hardwired) behavior can be increased or decreased, in frequency (and "reliability"), by utilizing "Reinforcements" or "Punishments". (This has been confirmed by tens of thousands animal experiments over the past 100 years, and billions of everyday human observations over millennia.) By the formal scientific definition of OC Theory, anything that increases a behavior is a "Reinforcement" (abbreviated "R") and anything that decreases a behavior is a "Punishment" ("P"). Note that these definitions are totally independent of the method of reinforcement or punishment.

    Generally, all "reinforcements" and "punishments" result from "stimuli" (external or internal). Every stimulus can be "Rewarding" (stimuli perceived as pleasant) and/or "Aversive" (perceived as unpleasant).

    NOTE: (1) A particular stimuli can be "Rewarding" in one context/setting, and the same stimuli can be "Aversive" in another setting; (2) A particular stimuli can be a "Rewarding" for one behavior, and the same stimuli can be "Aversive" for a different behavior; (3) A particular stimuli, being applied only once, can be simultaneously "Rewarding" and "Aversive" for different behaviors; (4) The perceptions of pleasant and unpleasant are wholly determined by each unique individual -- and while many, many other people might perceive that stimuli in the exact same manner (as the unique individual), that individual's perception might be the opposite; different individuals, in the exact same context, can perceive the exact same "stimuli" as either pleasant or unpleasant (e.g., "masochism"; "Sensory Processing Disorder"). THUS, THE EXACT SAME STIMULI CAN "REINFORCE" AND/OR "PUNISH", DEPENDING UPON THE PARTICULAR BEHAVIOR(S), SETTING(S) AND INDIVIDUAL(S)!

    Also, there is no natural linkage between "Rewarding Stimuli" being "Reinforcements" that increase behavior, nor between "Aversive Stimuli" being "Punishments" that decrease behavior. There is no linkage because any stimuli can be either "applied to" the individual (designated by the "+" (plus) symbol) or "removed from" the individual ("-" (minus) symbol).

    Thus, there is a two by two (2 X 2) matrix, defining four (4) basic training methods, for changing the frequency (or reliability) of behavior: "P+" (apply an aversive), "P-" (remove a reward), "R+" (apply a reward) and "R-" (remove an aversive).

    An example: A pleasant stimulus (planned trip to a baseball game) can be removed (trip cancelled) to create a significant punishment (for the husband repeatedly throwing dirty laundry on bedroom floor); future frequency and quantity of dirty laundry on floor is decreased (through punishment) by REMOVING a reward (P-).

    Another example: An aversive/unpleasant stimulus (CP of the butt) can be initiated, and the intensity continuously increased, for as long as necessary, until the desired behavior begins (husband starts scrubbing-out the toilet), and the CP immediately ceases; frequency and reliability of future toilet cleaning is increased (through reinforcement) by REMOVING the aversive (R-). This is also an example of the exact same stimuli working as both a "Reinforcer" AND as a "Punisher:" CP is applied to butt for husband "refusing" (insubordinate behavior) to clean toilet; frequency of all types of future "insubordination" is decreased (through punishment) by APPLYING the aversive (P+).

    (Cont. . . .)

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  29. OC FOUNDATIONS (Part 2)

    To use OC to decrease a behavior, the behavior/individual should be "Punished." To have maximum effect in shortest amount of time/training, BOTH types of Punishment (P+ and P-) should be employed. For example, to decrease "argumentative back-talking" to a wife in a WLM, . . .

    -- Husband argues and back-talks => Wife spanks husband. (P+; an "aversive/unpleasantness" is "applied") => Punishment decreases frequency of back-talking;

    -- Husband argues and back-talks => Wife also cancels husband's attendance at weekly poker game (P-; a "reward/pleasure" is "removed") => Punishment decreases frequency of back-talking;

    -- Husband continues arguing and back-talking => Wife requires husband to telephone every other poker player and explain, "My wife has grounded me for back-talking. I can't attend the game." (P+; an "aversive/unpleasantness" (social opprobrium and embarrassment) is "applied") => Punishment decreases frequency of back-talking.

    Each method is a "Punishment" (P) because each method can independently decreases the target behavior. They are NOT classified by whether the stimulus is pleasing or displeasing.

    Conversely, to increase a behavior, the individual's behavior should be "Reinforced." To have maximum effect in shortest amount of time/training, BOTH types of Reinforcement (R+ and R-) should be employed. For example, to increase "dishwashing" in a WLM, . . .

    -- Husband is washing dinner dishes => Wife hugs husband from behind, massages his crotch, nuzzles his ear with her mouth and whispers, "Washing Dishes? What a Good Boy." (R+; "rewards/pleasures" are "applied") => Reinforcement increases frequency and reliability of dishwashing.

    -- The next day, husband is washing dishes and starts fantasizing about wife, becomes "over-aroused," stops washing (leaving dirty dishes), and tries to join wife in bedroom => Upon husband entering bedroom, wife immediately grabs his ear and starts spanking him, continuing the spanking as she "perp-walks" him back into the kitchen; the spanking only stops once dish-washing resumes. (R-; an "aversive/unpleasantness" is "removed" => Reinforcement increases diligence of dishwashing.

    Each method is "Reinforcement" (R) because each method can independently increase the target behavior. NOT classified by the pleasure or displeasure of the stimulus.

    Even with all of these methods, it is likely to require multiple "training sessions" to reduce or increase the frequency of any particular behavior. The greater the number of methods and number of training events, the faster and greater the change in behavior and its reliability.

    (Cont. . . .)

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  30. OC FOUNDATIONS (Part 3)

    Reviewing the methods of Operant Conditioning, there are four (4) basic methods of changing behavior:

    "P+" = Punishment -- An aversive is applied;

    "P-" = Punishment -- A reward is removed (or denied / NOT applied);

    "R+" = Reinforcement -- A reward is applied;

    "R-" = Reinforcement -- An aversive is removed (or NOT applied).

    It is easily realized that these methods (above) are nothing more than very formalized, scientific descriptions of the classic, "common sense" methods of applying "Carrots and Sticks." Except, these methods also incorporate the "removal" of Carrots and Sticks.

    All creatures, great and small, if they have a "nervous system" that can learn, respond to OC in the same way: "Subconsciously!" For self-conscious creatures, possessing "cerebral executive function" (like Humans; and, science believes, dolphins and whales), the OC learning and response are ALSO "conscience" processes. (For humans, during overt "conscious training", there is almost always some level of emotional response, resulting in some "subconscious training." Similarly, during "subconscious training" of humans, there is almost always some level of "conscience/executive oversight" of that training, resulting in some "conscious training."

    TO MOST STRONGLY EMPHASIZE: (1) "FOR HUMANS;" (2) "OPERANT CONDITIONING . . . INVOLVES <> CONSCIOUS AND SUBCONSCIOUS PROCESSES!"

    (Cont. . . .)

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  31. OC FOUNDATIONS (Part 4)

    As noted above, Operant Conditioning can train human beings through both conscious and subconscious processes. In fact, the subconscious process is most effective, as targeting the "emotional functions" has greater impact than targeting "executive functions." That is, "Emotions" are almost always more strongly "felt" and more “motivating” than rational/conscious thoughts. Of course, to get maximum behavior change, both processes should be activated.

    Quite obviously, for OC to change behavior, the brain must realize the "linkage" between the behavior to be modified and the Punishment / Reinforcement (a dependence of events upon one another). For example, if a creature can't realize (consciously or subconsciously) that a punishment is dependent upon a particular behavior, then the behavior will not change. The formal, scientific name for this linkage between training and behavior is "Contingency."

    The contingency of a punishment upon a behavior can be established multiple ways. For a conscious human, the trainer can meet with the human several weeks after the behavior, at a remote location from the original behavior, verbally inform the human of the specific problematic behavior, then immediately apply the punishment; verbalize behavior, then apply punishment, repeatedly; the behavior will decrease. (Of course, the training method linked to verbalization could also be P-, R+ or R-). The end result is the human being is progressively trained through (mostly) "conscious" processes.

    What about training through the most effective subconscious, emotional processes? In this regard, humans respond the same as all other creatures (which do not have consciousness and executive functions). For all creatures, subconscious "contingency" is established through "proximity," or as OC-psychologists have named it, "Contiguity:" The "closeness of events in time and/or space." For example, immediate punishment is more effective at reducing targeted behavior than a delayed punishment; punishment performed at the same location as the behavior is more effective than punishment at a different, remote location. Combining both time and space is most effective in establishing linkage (contingency) in the subconscious!

    (Cont. . . .)

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  32. OC FOUNDATIONS (Part 5)

    To create good OC examples of subconscious "contingency" through "contiguity" we need to examine a non-human (with minimal executive function and consciousness):

    (1a) I'm training my dog to "close the door" after he lets himself into the house (after relieving himself in our back yard). So, whenever he closes that door, I try to approach him at the door immediately after the closure, and reinforce the behavior (closing) by rewarding him with a tasty biscuit. Contingency is subconsciously established between door closing and the reward through contiguity (proximity), and the behavior is reinforced, becoming more frequent and reliable. (A Real Life Experience)

    (1b) I continue training my dog to "close the door.” I let the dog out, then start work on a project (in my office at the other end of the house). A couple hours later, around 8:00pm, I notice the back door has been closed. I search out the dog, find him in the basement rec-room, and proceed to verbally praise the dog, telling him what a great job he did closing the door. I give the dog a tasty biscuit. The dog eagerly takes the biscuit and enjoys itself. The next day, at about the same time as yesterday, I notice the dog down in the basement rec-room, in almost the exact same place as yesterday, salivating. Contingency was subconsciously established, between the rec-room at 8:00pm and rewards of biscuits. What a smart dog; he knows where and when to get his biscuits! But there is no improvement in door closing. (A Hypothetical Example)

    (2a) I return home after a couple hours away at work, and find my dog has "disassembled / disemboweled" my favorite leather-upholstered easy-chair. There is shredded foam and leather scattered all over the living room. I approach the dog, take it by the collar, and lead it over to the chair. I proceed to "verbally punish" the dog with my angry, harsh and loud voice, as I repeatedly point at the chair, then later continued the reprimands as I pointed at all shredding on the floor. Contingency is subconsciously established (mostly through "location/", but somewhat through "time"), and that object-chewing behavior became less frequent. (Actually, that particular behavior never recurred. However, a couple months later I discovered the dog actively chewing-up the oak-leg of a "captain’s chair;" the dog was verbally punished (real-time, at location). There have been no further "dog / furniture problems.") (A Real Life Experience)

    (2b) I return home as before, and find the damaged easy-chair as before. The dog is nowhere to be found. I go looking for the dog, forgetting to stow-away my briefcase. Eventually I find the dog lying in the laundry room. I proceed to "verbally punish" the dog with my angry, harsh and loud voice, as I "repeatedly, verbally reference the easy chair," attempting to establish contingency. In the following days I notice that the dog almost never again enters the laundry room, not even to use the back-door to access the back yard. I also notice that, whenever I return home, and I am carrying my briefcase, the dog looks scared and quickly exits the room. Contingency was established: My briefcase and laundry room are safe from the dog! (A Hypothetical Example)

    Now, for most people (who have owned and trained dogs), these examples might seem painfully obvious. However, people forget that a human being’s subconscious works the exact same way. Yes, a human’s conscious/executive functions can partly override some of the “misassociations” that a dog might make, but the conscious/executive functions can rarely force the subconscious to make the correct associations/linkages.

    (Cont. . . .)

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  33. OC FOUNDATIONS (Part 6)

    A basic examples of "contingency" and "contiguity" in OC-training the subconscious of humans:

    (1) A wife has been training her husband in dishwashing. The wife has been using both pleasurable/rewarding Reinforcement (R+) via multi-sensory sexual stimulation, and uncomfortable/aversive Reinforcement (R-) via spanking, ALWAYS IN PHYSICAL AND TIME PROXIMITY TO THE KITCHEN SINK / WASHING BEHAVIOR, to shape the husband's dishwashing behavior. Over a period of several weeks, the husband starts noticing that he is having erotic "feelings" from washing dishes (without the wife present). The husband isn't imagining, fantasizing, or consciously thinking about the wife's stimulations, nor the previous arousing periods just before his previous spankings. As time passes, and the wife continues his "training," the feelings become stronger, turning into physical responses, even without the wife present. In fact, the husband often has to "back up" to provide himself more clearance to the sink counter.

    Sexual arousal and penile tumescence are NOT controlled by "executive functions;" they arise from the subconscious. Quite obviously, contingency has been established, in the subconscious, between husband's presence at the sink, washing dishes, and the wife's pleasant and unpleasant reinforcements (R+/R-).

    In fact, since sexual arousal is itself pleasurable, and thus reinforcing (R+) of the dishwashing (occurring at exact same time and place as dishwashing), the wife has established a self-reinforcing positive feedback loop in the husband's subconscious: "Dishwashing" <=> "Sexual Arousal." Now, with continuing, but only occasional external reinforcement (R+ / R-) by the wife (to counteract any random disincentives and distractions), the feedback loop can become nearly perpetual.

    (Cont. . . .)

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  34. OC FOUNDATIONS (Part 7)

    Another example of "contingency" and "contiguity" in OC-training the subconscious of humans:

    (2) A wife has been training her husband to reduce/eliminate "back-talking" and "arguing" when she announces unpopular decisions. She has previously applied various aversive punishments (P+: repeated spankings; P+; multiple public embarrassments), and removed pleasurable experiences (P-: cancellation of various social activities), every time the husband "mouthed off" in response to her announcements.

    The wife has been analyzing some of her husband's recent misconduct, and decided to impose a new punishment: Two weeks banishment from the marital bed. She explains to her husband the specific factual events, her extreme displeasure, the punishment, and her analysis, that justified the punishment.

    The husband agrees about the misconduct, but thinks the punishment is excessive and grossly unfair. The husband feels indignation arising within him, trying to break-out through vigorous verbal disagreement and harsh words toward his wife. However, simultaneously, the husband notices a surge of anxiety arising and encompassing him, and further notices that his heart-rate is starting to race. These autonomic emotional and responses trigger the husband to consciously remember what happened the last few times he argued with his wife. (Autonomic physical and emotional responses arise from the subconscious parts of the mind. Obviously, the husband's previously training has established a contingent linkage, in his subconscious, between back-talking to his wife and some very unpleasant experiences.)

    Instead of "mouthing off," the husband takes a deep breath and calmly, fully agrees about the violation and relevant facts, and that he does need to be punished, "for the benefit of the marriage." Working to control himself, he respectfully points out that banishment from the bed would also punish his wife, and that maybe an alternative "deprivation" or punishment, that would not harm her, could improve his behavior. As the husband explains his own position and reasoning, he notices his anxiety subsiding and heart-rate slowing.

    The wife considers his points and her options, then announces the original punishment remains most appropriate: "The misconduct occurred within the marital bed, so your banishment from the bed will create greatest contingency between the misconduct and the punishment -- Let the punishment fit the crime!" The husband swallows hard, then thanks the wife for enhancing the marriage and helping him become a better husband.

    (Cont. . . .)

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  35. OC FOUNDATIONS (Part 8)

    Finally, a cautionary example of "contingency" and "contiguity" in OC-training the subconscious of humans:

    For extreme misconduct, a wife sometimes uses an extreme punishment. The wife directs her husband to the bedroom, where she orders him to strip and manually stimulate himself to arousal and orgasm, completely draining his seminal fluid and also extinguishing almost all sexual desire. The orgasm also makes the husband especially sensitive to touch.

    To gain full benefit from his sensitivity and low arousal, the wife immediately orders her husband into kneeling at the foot of the bed, stretching his torso and arms out toward the headboard. The wife fetches her 36-inch "reformatory cane" from the closet.

    After verbally reprimanding the husband for the specific misconduct, the wife immediately and methodically administers twelve strong slashes to the husband's behind. The husband just barely manages to maintain control after each slash. With the first twelve slashes accomplished, the wife walks around the bedroom, slashing the cane through the air, while the husband mentally prepares for the next "twelve of her best!"

    The wife continues the pattern: Reprimanding while verbalizing the specific misconduct; methodically applying a dozen slashes with the cane; the husband barely managing to maintain control; the wife practicing slashing the air while the husband struggles to prepare for the next dozen.

    Eventually, the wife feels she has made her point! The husband really, truly understands how she feels about that misconduct. That particular misconduct doesn't recur for a very, VERY long time.

    The wife is very pleased with the effectiveness of her new "orgasmic relief / severe punishment" method. She employs the method four to five times a year, for particularly serious offenses, and occasionally just to reinforce her power and authority in the relationship.

    However, over the following year, another problem appears and seems to be getting worse. The husband is developing progressive "erectile disfunction" (ED). Even when the husband experiences a strong erection, he often cannot achieve his own orgasm during mutual stimulation; he is experiencing more and more instances of anejaculation during sex.

    The wife and husband consult a physician, who finds nothing organically wrong, but suggest a sexual therapist. The therapist questions them about ALL of the husbands sexual activities. Eventually, after much probing, the therapist learns that the wife has been immediately punishing the husband after he erects and ejaculates. In fact, these orgasms are being punished right in front of the marital bed! The therapist explains what she thinks may have happened: The husband has subconsciously established "contingency" between the "punishment" and the "orgasm / bed / bedroom." The "contiguity" between punishment and these three stimuli have "subconsciously conditioned" the husband to NOT erect and ejaculate, particularly in that bedroom environment; those three stimuli were much too close (proximate) to the punishment!

    The therapist recommends a treatment plan, and some modifications of the punishment method, to reduce and eliminate such linkages. The therapist explains that with simple treatment, and without future "contiguous reinforcement" as in the past, the erroneous conditioning should disappear.

    (Cont. . . .)

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  36. OC FOUNDATIONS (Part 9)

    Modifications to a punishment method to minimize chances of wrongly training the human subconscious:

    After accidentally suppressing the husband's erections and ejaculations, the wife follows the therapist's advice to prepare for the time she will need to apply extreme punishment:

    (1) She decides to no longer use her bedroom for any corporal punishments; in fact, she think the bedroom would be an excellent place of her husband to meditate;

    (2) The wife takes her husband shopping at used furniture stores, looking for a large, overstuffed chair. She repeatedly has the husband kneel onto each seats cushion, facing backward, and then lean forward to place his chest onto the top of the backrest. She finally finds a chair with the right geometry, and directs her husband to move the chair home to the basement rec-room;

    (3) She looks around the house for small, isolated room, as distant as possible from the bedroom and rec-room. While not small, she eventually settles on the attached-garage, which meets the distance standards.

    The next time the husband engages in extreme misconduct, the wife is ready. She instructs the husband to "get naked," hands him a clear plastic cup and instructs him to go to the garage, masturbate, and bring her back proof.

    Upon the husband's return, the wife further instructs him: "Now, go to my bedroom, draw closed the drapes, and turn off the lights. I want you to sit on the bed and meditate on what you should have done differently, done correctly; try not to think about the misconduct that got you into this situation. Try not to think about any punishment; just think about what you SHOULD HAVE DONE -- what would have been the correct behavior. I'll come and get you after a while. When I arrive, I want you to clearly explain to me what the "correct behavior" should have been, and also explain at least five reasons why that would have been the correct behavior. Now go meditate."

    After an hour, the wife rejoins her husband and listens to his proposed alternative correct behavior. After some discussion, the husband come to agree with wife. The wife leads the husband down to the basement for his punishment on the new chair.

    The wife has separated the punishment, in both time and space, from the masturbation and ejaculation (and similarly separated both from the bedroom with the marital bed). She has also made sure that, immediately after the masturbation, during an extended period, the husband remains calms, and is mentally distracted without thinking about the original behavior, but rather the correct, rewarding behavior. By separating the three events (masturbation, the bedroom and the punishment), the wife has "broken contiguity" and minimizes any chance of a mistaken subconscious linkage between any combinations.

    ---------------------------------------

    Maybe some day my wife can make some comments on frequency of reinforcements and punishments, and how those frequencies effects recidivism. In particular, how many people don't realize that, for punishments, inconsistencies and reductions in frequency can actually reinforce and increase the frequency of misconduct; it seems counterintuitive, but is well established through science in many different contexts.

    (I hope I have channeled my wife's thoughts and descriptions well. Any mistakes and ambiguities are, of course, my own, and not my wife's.)

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