"I'm tough, I'm ambitious, and I know exactly what I want. If that makes me a bitch, okay." ―Madonna
Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club. Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.
I hope you all had a good week.
The discussion on the blog
perked up a little. I’m sure part of the
reason that participation dropped in the first place was a lack of diligence on
my part in posting regularly. I recognize,
by the way, the irony of griping from time to time about the ill effects of a lack
of consistency in the application of discipline to our naughty bottoms, while
not taking care to avoid the ill effects of inconsistency while trying to
maintain participation here. I’ll try to
do better in the future.
There was some good stuff in
the comments last week. Here are a few
excerpts that seemed worthy of following up on.
MW: “Combining today’s topics, I wonder if a small real world community could be the next step for the blog, if there were a way to safely do it. I read somewhere that the DWC community would require a simple phone call to weed out problematic members. Just a thought.”
worth thinking about and, rest assured, I have thought about it. I need to think through what that might look like, and I’m happy to do so. Also happy to take suggestions, either here in the comments or by email.
Several other commenters talked about their experiences or fantasies with various “openness” scenarios my post had asked about.
Alan: “Imagine a world where husband discipline was both common and open enough to allow that sort of sharing among wives. It is a 10 on my fantasy meter although in practice I would probably dread it. Consider what leverage a wife would have just threatening her husband to send him to X, known perhaps as an especially strict disciplinarian or just for the embarrassment of reporting to another women for discipline.
It might be fun as an experience once or twice but beyond that I think it would turn the average DD husband into an angel to avoid it happening.
Or imagine what Tomy must have felt when the husband of the woman who was going to spank him answered the door when he arrived (I believe he related an experience similar to this.) Just the trust and communication that would be necessary among couples to make this work is fascinating.”
ZM: “On the other hand, I was talking with my wife last night about how it was when we were kids - albeit from different cultures. At home, spankings were generally administered privately, but often others heard the spanking taking place. Plus there was the whole being taken out of the room and then the embarrassment of coming back into the room. And sometimes spankings in homes did happen in front of others, though rarely. But either way, we generally knew when our friends (and even more so those we didn’t like) were spanked, because people talked.”
There were a few things that struck me about these and other examples people provided.
First, each of these three excerpts got a reaction from me. Butterfly feelings in my loins and/or gut. A common theme uniting them all is embarrassment. I have a similar feeling reaction to Alan’s reference to Tomy being greeted at the door by the husband of the woman who is going to spank him, to ZM’s observance about the embarrassment of coming back into the classroom after being spanked in the principal’s office, and to T’s overhearing his wife tell a friend about how she would have beat his ass had he misbehaved in the same way his friend did.
Third, I seem not to be the only one for whom being subject to someone’s authority is more threatening to the ego than simply being spanked in front of witnesses. Or, perhaps the issue is that some of the wives find it easier to spank in front of someone than to exercise verbal authority publicly. I noticed that multiple people had attended spanking parties or been involved in some kind of group spanking activity, yet those same people had not been subject to some overt show of authority.
Relatedly, while last week’s topic centered on various scenarios regarding “openness,” I think the reason I am attracted to openness is not so much a desire to communicate about DD but, rather, something more along the lines of this other excerpt from ZM’s comment:
“But either way, whether given publicly or privately, the one common factor in school spankings in both countries is EVERYONE knew about them, and there was enormous embarrassment and teasing (sometimes met with some arrogant pride) for the unfortunate recipient.
I think this is what I
really want and crave, though can of course never fully experience. I want spanking
to be common and acceptable enough, at least within a small, selected group of
people - or even one person - around me, that when a spanking occurs, it can be
openly talked about and laughed about, with all the surrounding feelings,
embarrassment, shame, and teasing. But on a wider scale, I kind of want DD to
remain a shared naughty secret.”
For me, I think the prospect of “openness” does cause embarrassment, but for the embarrassment to have that perverse attraction ZM is getting at, it has to be in the context of some kind of show of authority. A group spanking scenario seems more like playacting or like a BDSM scene. For me, the embarrassment around the prospect of “openness” comes from someone exercising their authority over me, or someone witnessing or knowing about that imposition of authority, not from the spanking itself. (I’m speaking theoretically, since I haven’t been spanked in front of anyone else.)
Further, someone else knowing about it doesn’t have the emotional force if I’m the one doing the disclosing. T’s scenario, on the other hand, does have some emotional force for me, even though it didn’t involve any real spanking at all and, instead, only a statement from his wife to a friend that his wife would have spanked him under certain conditions. The conversation was itself a demonstration of authority.
So, for me, embarrassment that stimulates an edgy reaction seems to require both some openness about having been spanked or the prospect of being spanked plus some expression or communication about it that reflects my wife’s authority. Alan’s reference to Tomy being sent to another wife for a spanking really hits me, because it involves such an open show of authority by both wives.
In addition to the power exchange involved, I think these instances of what I guess you could call “imposed openness” involves wives who seem to have no shortage of confidence. They impose these instances of openness because they are so supremely self-confident that they have the authority to do so. Exercising that level of self-assuredness is, to me, incredibly sexy.
As I was thinking about this,
I thought about a topic I think I’ve covered only once, back in 2015, namely “bitchiness.”
I think many women struggle with overt displays of authority, because they have
concerns about being perceived as bitchy.
Yet, I think getting over that concern is probably necessary to really
taking the reins, whether in a marriage or a career. Here is a slightly edited version of part of
the post from 2015:
“A few weeks ago, I was at a happy hour with a group of younger members of my office. A discussion ensued in which a couple of our high potential, but somewhat junior, female leaders bemoaned the fact their male subordinates treated them with less respect than they showed to male superiors, including not doing their work in as timely a manner, reacting badly to constructive feedback, and not prioritizing their work assignments.
I asked what seemed to me to be a fairly logical follow-up question: "Why do you let them get away with it? If you repeatedly let them treat you with disrespect, don't you share some of the blame for letting that power dynamic fester?"
An awkward silence followed. So, I pressed forward a bit, pointing out that it isn't like they don't have tools at their disposal to slap someone down if they are ignoring orders, not responding quickly, etc. Pull them into your office for a stern lecture, don't put them on key projects, give them a lousy annual review, etc. If these guys weren't showing appropriate respect to female superiors, then why weren't those superiors making them pay a price for it?
After another uncomfortable silence, one of them offered up a very honest answer: "Because they will see me as a bitch and call me one when I'm not around." To which I answered, "So?" Another awkward silence.
"Seriously," I said, "do you think that a male superior would put up with that shit? And, after that male superior slaps a subordinate down, do you think that subordinate doesn't call him a dick, or an asshole, or some similar derogatory word, under the subordinate’s breath as he’s scurrying out of the office with his tail between his legs?"
They continued to insist it just isn't the same thing, and I continued to ask why, without getting much more than, "It just is." It was one of those discussions where the perspectives of the people on opposing sides of the conversation were just so different that there plainly wasn't enough common ground for us to really get anywhere. So, we dropped it and went back to talking about whatever.”
I do think that women
generally worry way more about being perceived as bitches than they should. Certainly way more than most men worry about
being called “dicks” or “assholes.” Or, at
least men seem to be more willing to get past their concerns to get the job
done. Am I right about that?
I hope we’ll get a few wives joining in for this discussion. Is the prospect of being seen as a "bitch" or being overly assertive an impediment to taking on a DD or FLR leadership role? Do you hold back in ordering discipline or in making decisions in your relationship because you are, deep down inside, concerned about being seen as "bitchy" or overly aggressive? Do you have those feelings even if he has told you he wants you to be more stern and strict? Do you think that maybe, given his desires to be in a DD or FLR relationship, he might actually get off on overt, stern, aggressive displays of authority?
I hope you all have a great week.
My wife read this and was on board with everything you said until she came to the work part. She made the point that in a 50/50 environment that may work, but in a male dominated work environment, the ultimate effect is that no-one is prepared to work with you which makes it very difficult to react with the right level of authority. And yes, she works in a very male dominated industry, which curiously enough, I don’t. TG
ReplyDeleteIt's probably true that it varies by industry, though it's also true that you kind of make your own environment to some extent. Also, the "no-one is prepared to work with you" factor probably happens, but only in environments in which underlings get to choose who to work with and what projects to take on. I'm not saying that it isn't an issue, but I am saying that I think there is a mutually reinforcing feedback loop involved. If the younger female leaders don't exercise authority, then the subordinates feel free to push back on working with them. I've worked with several very strong female leaders, and I don't think anyone around them doubted that if someone on their team refused to work with them or didn't take direction, that person would be gone. And, there is a reason those particular female leaders made it to the very top of the profession.
DeleteIn typical peacemaker fashion, I agree with both of you! First off, there is little doubt that assertive women in the workplace are often seen as bitches. I have realized that even though I LOVE powerful women, and have worked with quite a few along the way, I still all too easily tend to see them as being bitchy myself. So if I do this, how much more would guys who don't have a thing for strong women? Yes, we may also think of men who are very demanding as assholes or dicks, but I think the threshold is often quite different.
DeleteAt the same time, I absolutely agree about the feedback loop that Dan mentioned. Sure, men might think of them as bitches sometimes, probably often unfairly, but if women in the workplace want people to follow, then they need to decisively lead, expect to be respected, and hold their subordinates (male and female) accountable.
-ZM
Hey ZM. I agree with all this, with the exception of: "Yes, we may also think of men who are very demanding as assholes or dicks, but I think the threshold is often quite different." For me at least, I don't think the threshold is very different. If anything, I would probably be much quicker to react negatively to a male superior who I thought was out of line.
DeleteHmmm, maybe true. I will have to think more about that. It is kind of difficult because basically I bristle at any and all authority, regardless of the gender of the one in charge. Also, maybe I am more inclined to remember those times that I think a woman is a real bitch than when I think that a man is an asshole, partly because I have always worked in such a male-dominated industry.
Delete-ZM
I definitely have the same problem with bristling at all authority. But, I was also raised in an area that emphasized (talked a good game, might be another way to put it) respecting women. As a result, I do think I'm way more likely to openly go after a man abusing his authority than a woman. In terms of the level of resentment, it's probably about equal, though the fact that I have a thing for tough, aggressive women, probably means I cut them more slack than an equally aggressive male.
DeleteHi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI have asked my wife this question before recently, when the whole “bitchiness” thing came up on a discussion a while back. At the time, she said that it wasn’t a concern for her at all and didn’t affect her in any way. Case closed, or so I thought.
This time, I read the entire column to her and again asked about whether being seen as a bitch might be an obstacle to her. As expected, considering our previous discussion of it, her first response was that for her, she isn’t the least bit concerned about seeming bitchy. She went on to explain that if it is just with me privately, then she knows that I want and need this, so no worries. And also the ones she has told about this (a lifelong friend from childhood and my wife’s sister) know my wife well enough to know beyond a doubt that she is not a bitch, and they also understand that this is all flowing from my desires and needs, since my wife has explained all that to them.
As we discussed it further, we came up with some additional thoughts. First off, she has not actually used the strict tone with me or overtly showed her authority in any other way in front of anyone else. So even for those that she is so sure about - those that she has told in detail about our DD - she simply doesn’t know how she would feel, since she hasn’t actually been strict in front of them.
And for others that she is not as close to, it turns out this is much more of a concern. She mentioned my friend that I have told about the authority part of our DD, and jokingly mentioned the spanking part. Even though my wife is friends with her, she said she could see that it would be harder to show her authority too openly in front of her because they haven’t known each other nearly as long and maybe this friend would think my wife was being a bitch.
I think this is a big part of the explanation - at least for my wife and I - behind one of your observations from last week (when responding to me) “’Engaged in or been subjected to some very overt display of authority in front of others? Not so far, but I am pretty sure this is something that will happen over time.’ It's interesting that this one seems kind of innocuous, depending on the setting where it happens, yet it seems like not a lot of it goes on.” - Based on the discussion I had with my wife this morning, it kind of makes me wonder if this fear of being seen as bitchy is precisely the reason that while she seems to always think this overt display of authority in front of others is a great idea that she needs to try some time, it never actually seems to actually happen?
Also, while she might not be afraid of being a bitch with me privately, it is still not always particularly easy to make the transition in a moment (for either of us) from our normal very loving, caring, egalitarian relationship to her suddenly being a stern and demanding authority figure and me being instantly reduced to naughty little boy. And then of course back to normal afterwards.
-ZM
It's great that the two of you dug into this further and very interesting that there ended up being a lot more nuance to uncover.
DeleteOne thing that is really interesting to me is how much we care about strangers' reactions to us. The key differentiator for your wife in being open to being publicly in charge is how well the people involved know her. You would think we would care *less* about what strangers think of us, yet it doesn't really work that way, does it?
Hi Dan,
Delete"The key differentiator for your wife in being open to being publicly in charge is how well the people involved know her." - I guess I didn't explain it well. It is NOT that my wife cares more about what people who are not so close to her think, which would indeed be counterintuitive. Instead, like probably everyone, she cares most about what those who are close to her think about her. However, she has confidence that those who know her well enough also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is far from being a bitch. And in this case, the people she was talking about also know the inner workings of our DD relationship and that it is at my behest. So, she would feel much more free to assert her authority very openly and even quite sternly in front of them, because they understand why she is doing this and also they have known her for so long that nothing she could do at this point would make them think she was bitchy. She just isn't. Also, I would guess - though don't really know since she has never done it - that because they would understand the DD relationship, if she were to be super bossy with me in front of either of those people, they would probably not feel all that uncomfortable like most of us generally get when we see someone embarrassed by another. If anything, they would probably giggle or something.
If it were someone who knows her very well but doesn't know about our DD relationship, like any of her longtime friends, they would undoubtedly be surprised if she asserted her authority openly in front of them. The wouldn't think she was a bitch, because they know better, but instead might assume she was having a bad day or maybe we had an argument earlier or something like that. And I think it would be at least somewhat uncomfortable for them, because they would be a little embarrassed for her, since she doesn't normally act like that.
And finally, if someone doesn't know her well and also doesn't know about our DD, if they see her openly assert her authority, especially with a stern demeaner, they might very well think she is a bitch.
"You would think we would care *less* about what strangers think of us, yet it doesn't really work that way, does it?" - I think we do usually care less about what strangers think than those who are close to us. The part to me that is surprising is that amount we care about what strangers think is a whole lot further from zero than I would expect. I am always surprised at just how much we do care about what strangers think of us, because in my mind I like to think I don't care at all, but over 50 some years I have realized I care a lot more than I think I do and want to care.
-ZM
Got it. I also agree with you that we do care, probably a lot more than we should, about what strangers think. I suspect that it's a form of evolutionary hard-wiring. We've probably always been a species that had to hang together to survive; one in which one of the biggest threats to survival was ostracism from the group. My guess is that makes us predisposed to judging our behavior by how we think others might judge it.
DeleteYou are likely right about the evolutionary hard-wiring, though I must admit I know almost nothing about sociology or anthropology or whatever field encompasses that. I do think that a huge amount of what we consider normal human behavior and even a lot of morality goes back to what allowed the human "herd" to survive and thrive.
Delete-ZM
The work thing is hard to judge. I am currently managing but I have no real power and the PM also has no real power she is a strong woman but the only thing we can do is report to the men running the show. The PM is bitchy but cannot make desicions on her own so no fear of her. My wife has real power and authority she is often reluctant to use it but when she does you know you are going to feel it.
ReplyDeleteShe is very private and does not want anybody to know that she has to spank me. She thinks she shouldn't have to but she knows I want her to be the boss. That means she has to punish me when I just refuse to listen and obey.
As a child I was sometimes spanked in front of or with others
It was humiliating. Looking back it was a good thing. I was relieved that I was loved enough to be put in my place and I think it helped me in the long run
ReplyDelete“However, I assume that a huge percentage of that interest (almost all), is in erotic spanking and not DD (real punishments for real offenses)”
I apologize, but this continues from last week and is in response to ZM’s characterization and categorization of interest in spanking. His typology is very good and I agree with his estimates and inferences, but I would like to add to it in terms of relating erotic spanking to DD.
Anecdotally it appears to me that some considerable amount of erotic spanking interest eventually evolves into some form of DD (both M/F and F/M). This suggests to me that erotic spanking is (to use a much misused word) a “gateway to DD for some, how many we don’t know.
But even more to my point, spanking itself is associated in most people’s mind with punishment -- and erotic spanking beyond very mild slapping must derive its pleasures from some psychological impulses beyond the physical aspects of “erotic spanking”
So many with more than a mild or passing interest in erotic spanking may and probably do have some underlying interest in punishment or discipline. Ultimately erotic spanking and DD are not different things but different stages of the same psychological process for many interested in spanking.
Alan
Alan, that's a good point that there is overlap and that erotic spanking probably is the "gateway" to DD. It was for me, though the period of erotic spankings was very brief. I do wonder though what the "conversion rate" of erotic to DD might be.
DeleteBTW, Blogger's spam filter seems to have been turned up to 11 again. Your comment was hung up there. One of our from ZM got hung up yesterday even though all came from the same account and at about the same time.
Dan wrote: “I do wonder though what the "conversion rate" of erotic to DD might be.”
DeleteI think a lot of “erotic spanking “ is initiated by only one of the couple with the other perhaps curious or mildly interested but basically not what we would call a “spanko” The conversion rate there is probably small and only occurs in committed relationships when the spanko of the couple is persistent about bringing it into the relationship.
However if the erotic spanking from the beginning is with two spankos (whether they are tops or bottoms in the beginning doesn’t matter)—and given the underlying punishment/discipline dynamic linked to spanking—then the “conversion” rate might be fairly high
I use our history as an example. My wife and I are both spankos But she was once a spankee for the entirety of a first marriage. She probably could have remained in that role if I had not been open to her as the disciplinarian. But her experience in her first marriage convinced her she wanted to be in charge and that was my wish also. The point is we both were spankos and moving it from bedroom entertainment to real discipline was pretty much a slam dunk for us. There is no way we would have been fulfilled by only erotic spanking - but that she became the disciplinarian was due more to our respective earlier experiences and not the core spanking dynamic itself.
Alan
Hi Alan,
Delete"Anecdotally it appears to me that some considerable amount of erotic spanking interest eventually evolves into some form of DD (both M/F and F/M). This suggests to me that erotic spanking is (to use a much misused word) a 'gateway' to DD for some, how many we don’t know." Excellent point! I know this was true for me. I first discovered adult spanking when I was a teenager, reading Penthouse Letters. I had always had a morbid fascination with spankings (school and home), but never really thought much of it until I happened to read a story - almost certainly fiction - one day. And since that day, I am pretty sure there haven't been many days that I didn't think about spanking.
But I didn't know what I wanted... From the beginning, I did seem to grasp that I was more turned on by the domestic angle. I kind of viewed the dominatrix with whips and chains and leather beating their slave as a turn-off, or at least as not what I wanted. Instead, I was most turned on by the thought of real women spanking real men. But for the next 30 some years, I knew more about what I didn't want than what I did want. Even when I wrote a letter to my former wife explaining the whole concept of a boot camp type time for real things, I think in my mind I was still just seeking erotic spanking and just wanted to provide the supposed excuses for it.
I explained everything to my current wife early on in our dating, and we kind of explored everything together, and somewhere along the line I realized that while I am certainly somewhat of a spanko, in fact I am much, much more about a female (wife in my case) exerting authority over her partner. Spanking is probably the primary tool in her arsenal, but even so, the underlying authority is in fact more important to me than the spanking itself. So for me, interest in erotic spanking led me to my real interest in disciplinary spanking.
At the same time, my wife started out not knowing anything about any of this, so she certainly didn't have any interest. Now, she is at the very least a spanking enthusiast who gets some thrill from exercising her authority. For her, my interest in DD somehow sparked her interest in DD.
Ironically, as I have grown to realize just what it is that I want and need, I am now much more open to all of the femdom type games and costumes, but I just put them in a separate category; to me there is DD/FLR and then there is kinky play, though of course there is a lot of crossover and gray area. My wife was immediately attracted to the different outfits worn by dominas and mistresses, and quickly realized that she felt much more powerful just by dressing the part. She also gets into roleplay, so now I kind of get off on all that as well, since it is fun to play with things like that with her. So in a way, I can also say that it was my interest in DD that led to my interest in kinky roleplay as well.
I agree in the linkage between spanking (even erotic spanking) and punishment and that DD and erotic spanking are not really different things as much as they are different stages.
-ZM
Good thread to pull on. We wouldn't have arrived at DD if not for my erotic spanking interest. I also find traditional dominatrix activities unappealing, though, perhaps I just need to see my wife get excited by them to help me. ZM, that's wonderful that she's arrived at genuine thrills and controls her own mood with clothing. I do think both my wife and I enjoy these activities more when we're both dressed better. She looks great in a long skirt or nice top with a paddle in her hands. She likes my energy when I have on a good collared shirt.
DeleteZM: You seem to have been attuned to your spanking interest on some level early on, and it's great the way your self-awareness evolved over time. I really can't account for why mine was so late developing. Like you, I probably first encountered spanking in some Penthouse letter or article. But, I don't recall being particularly turned on by it. I know that in my late 30s I saw a segment on adult spanking on the HBO series Real Sex, and it definitely did push some buttons. While I didn't take notice of it at the time, it focused on spankings between a "real" couple, so maybe it was the domestic setting that got to me. But, even though it definitely did turn me on, probably no more than lots of other sex stuff. I'm pretty confident that it was only when I discover the DWC, in my late 30s, that spanking went from some mild interest to a major compulsion.
DeleteMW and ZM: It does seem like clothing could be very empowering. So far, my wife hasn't shown any particular interest in dressing up, whether specifically for spankings or just as a way of being more powerful. Other than, she does tend to wear leather knee-high boots when we go out. If anything, we're probably dressing less powerfully than ever these days. With neither of us employed at this time, there isn't anything compelling us to dress up. My daily uniform has gone from collared shirt and sport coat to jeans and a t-shirt.
As I mentioned somewhere below, my wife doesn't dress up for punishment spankings. For her, that is more for roleplay scenarios, which she also enjoys. She does say that when she puts on certain clothes, it immediately makes her feel more powerful. And in the same way, I can say that certain clothing items immediately (and profoundly) make me feel little, silly, and weak or powerless.
Delete-ZM
My evolution to DD was a different path, it seems. I was fascinated by spanking as a young boy, long before I knew anything about sexuality. The idea that spanking could be part of something unrelated to punishment did not exist for me. It wasn't until around puberty that my fantasies had become erotic and focused on women and girls, however, spanking was still all about discipline. I didn't know about adult relationships and erotic spanking. Even what I saw on TV or in the movies, when the male protagonist spanked a female character, it was to "tame" her as if she were an unruly child. There was never an example I remember where a strong woman took a man in hand, and that would have blown my mind. I discovered spanking erotica in my later teens, but other than the novelty of femdom and the leather clad dominatrix, it was really only the domestic discipline themes that I found exciting. Eventually, I came around to the idea that a wife could assume the role of a parental-like authority. This was the dynamic that created feelings of shame and embarrassment like what I knew growing up, and that didn't exist for me in BDSM. Erotic spanking can be exciting, but I don't see it as having much to do at all with my attraction to DD.
DeleteHello all, I was sorry to have missed the last episode about openness as I had internet issues. I would have answered to nearly all the points in the list Dan provided.
ReplyDeleteOn this week's question, my partner could not be concerned less about how me or anyone perceives her as she carries out her dominant role. She would counter any of those possible thoughts with the fact that I was the one who wanted to be the dominant force and administer discipline coldly and objectively when needed. Any of our friends or family who are aware of our lifestyle would not perceive her as a 'bitch' or sadist of any kind. She has been given the authority to punish when she deems necessary and I can only accept it without question. On the flip side of this, she is the most loving partner I have ever had and very fair with her punishments.
A few changes... add the word 'yes' to the second statement...'I would have answered 'yes' to nearly..
DeleteNext, insert the word 'her' in the statement...I was the one who wanted 'her' to be..
Sorry for the corrections.
Hi Spanked Cowboy,
DeleteYour post ties in with and reinforces what I just posted above in a different comment. "Any of our friends or family who are aware of our lifestyle would not perceive her as a 'bitch' or sadist of any kind." - I think it is not so much the relationship (friend, family, etc.) but rather their awareness of your lifestyle that allows your partner to openly be assertive without being seen as bitchy or for that matter as a sadist. So in a way, the more open you are about your lifestyle, the more open you can be about actually living it. This reminds me of something that Dan wrote some months back with the general idea that (paraphrasing) "I am convinced that you can be or do almost anything without any real backlash as long as you own who you are or what you do." I was too lazy to go find the quote, so I am sure I totally butchered it, but he was talking about a former co-worker of his who was incredibly edgy.
-ZM
Thank you Bad_boy_G for your comment. I reread your post and completely agree, 'the more open one is about their lifestyle, the more open you can be about living it.' We are fairly open about our lifestyle, but don't broadcast it either. If someone 'discovers' our lifestyle, instead of trying to hide. we strive to explain the lifestyle and its benefits. No arguments, no silent periods, no grudges are but a few of the perks. I own the fact I am a spanked submissive male and enjoy living the better lifestyle a DD household, and in our case a FLR has provided.
DeleteSC and ZM, while I did say I think you can get away with pretty much anything these days if you "own it," on a personal level I'm a pretty bad example of it. I've gone to lengths that now often seem kind of absurd to protect my on-line anonymity associated with things like this blog, and I've "come out" to only one person who isn't in these lifestyles in some form.
DeleteI do think a lot of the on-line anonymity has been driven by career concerns. Not so much the career I was in, but directions I thought It could go in over time, like jobs that might require a security clearance or a public appointment with a background check. That doesn't seem to be the way life is going these days, which is probably why I've been less concerned about anonymity lately and have, instead, been thinking more about openness.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI'm a long time lurker, first time poster. First, thanks for this blog! It's been a nice source of realistic inspiration and knowledge that we aren't alone. The discussion about "bitchiness" moved me to comment.
My wife (J) and I have been together 22 years, and for the last 10, our marriage has been a disciplinary FLR (we'd been on the "kinky" side since we first got together, but were equal partners in the relationship until about 10 years ago). We're both professionals with a lot of day job responsibility (I'm an engineer and she's a lawyer). So she has learned to have no trouble being assertive, in our relationship or in her work life.
But if you were a fly on the wall in our house (or overhearing us at a social event), you'd have never imagine from the way she speaks that we were in a "disciplinary" relationship or that I am subject to her authority. We both know it, and so there's no need to talk about it or emphasize it. We sound like any other couple. The only difference is that if we disagree, we do what she says (or I suffer the consequences for not doing so). But there's nothing in the way we communicate or interact that would obviously indicate this. You'd have to study us for a long time to notice that she simply always gets her way. Nothing about the way we talk with each other makes her seem bitchy or bossy or me subservient. But she's definitely the boss, she definitely knows it, and I simply make every effort not to challenge it (because I like that she's in charge). Quiet confidence, I guess.
K
"You'd have to study us for a long time to notice that she simply always gets her way." I like that, even if I'm personally interested in more overt shows of authority.
DeleteIt's interesting that she's a lawyer. While it can be a combative profession, many lawyers I know are actually pretty conflict-averse when it comes to their personal interactions. It's great that your wife is good at being assertive in both her work and relationship lives.
Hello K, and welcome!
DeleteFrom my recollection I would say that the relationships of the majority of the commenters here over the years are pretty similar to what you described. The wife or female partner has authority, whether it be disciplinary authority for pre-defined matters in a DD or more far reaching authority in an FLR or something in between. And when necessary she exercises that authority by punishing her husband/partner. And usually nobody knows about it outside the two participants, since they not only don’t tell others, but in fact usually go to great lengths to make sure it is not discovered.
And in fact, this is pretty much exactly the way it was for my wife and I as well, at least until the summer of 2020, when we began discussing the whole topic of others. And really until last fall nothing even changed on that except a whole lot of talking to each other about the topic.
Regarding the authority and existence of the disciplinary aspect of your relationship, you said: “…we both know it, and so there's no need to talk about it or emphasize it.” - Let me start by saying that I factually agree with the statement “there’s no need to talk about it or emphasize it.” It is absolutely correct that all that is needed for a DD/FLR relationship to work is for you to both acknowledge her authority and for you to fall in line and for her to enforce it when necessary.
The same can also be said for most other things discussed from time to time here. There is no NEED for corner time, mouthsoaping, pegging, enemas, grounding, early bedtimes, writing lines, or any other alternative punishment. There is certainly no need for any clothing that might temporarily take away from the masculinity of the punished male (like panties), or for that matter even nakedness beyond perhaps lowered pants to increase the sting of impact and to lower the risk of unintentionally causing excess physical damage. There is no need for canes, straps, or any other exotic spanking instruments, though it could be argued that a paddle is more effective than an hand or hairbrush. And so on... So of course nobody else needs to know about a DD/FLR for it to work and work well, and probably for many if not most people, that is exactly how it will remain.
However, just because there is no actual need for any of these things, it doesn’t mean there isn’t any value in them for some couples, and us discussing those things here certainly makes the blog more interesting! I personally love the diversity of opinions and DD experiences here and can’t imagine how boring it would be here if everyone just practiced exactly the same kind of DD.
Back to the topic of the week about embarrassment, authority and bitchiness. Could there be value in the embarrassment caused by the open show of authority and others knowing that discipline happens? As I said before, I never experienced a school paddling, but my guess is that at least some of those who did likely remember the embarrassment in much better detail than they remember the physical pain of the punishment. I have always kind of assumed that school administrators didn’t do all that much to ensure the secrecy of punishments occurring (which would have not been all that hard to do), precisely because they were counting on the embarrassment adding to the impact of the spanking. In the same way, I could see how my wife could easily openly show her authority in front of others so that I would not only end up with a bruised bottom but also a bruised ego. This might allow her to make a punishment much more impactful and memorable without having to cause excessive physical damage to my bottom.
Anyway, all that is to say, I agree that there is no need, but that doesn’t mean that there might not be benefit, at least for some.
-ZM
"I could see how my wife could easily openly show her authority in front of others so that I would not only end up with a bruised bottom but also a bruised ego." In my mind, there's no doubt the latter would be harder to recover from.
DeleteOh, first, to be clear, I'm not trying to suggest that the way we are is more "correct" than any other. It's just what works for us and what we've settled into. J doesn't want to be "bitchy". But she does expect to be in charge, and she has absolutely no hesitation to impose correction on me when I need it. She just does it in a very "normal", matter of fact way that doesn't call attention to itself. But it definitely gets my attention!
DeleteI think one of the things she (and I) want to avoid, is dealing with me like you sometimes have to with a teenager, with knock down drag out fights over little things. We already raised kids, and that was enough! I'm expected to be (and try to be) an adult, but I'm accountable to her and follow her rules.
K
One of the things we discussed when we started this, and that really struck home for me, was that for our disciplinary relationship to work, it has to be at least as fulfilling and fun for her as it is for me. For example, while it might be exciting for me for J to transform into a leather-clad bitch dominatrix as soon as she walks into the house, that isn't who she wants to be. It would be WORK for her, an indulgence of my fantasies rather than hers.
DeleteSo instead, we have something less dramatic looking. She's herself, but with extra power and authority in our relationship. And she's become VERY comfortable with that. The fact that I know this is genuinely good for her makes it more exciting for me and makes me more comfortable submitting to her authority and discipline.. She's not playing a role. She's doing what she really wants.
K
Hi K,
Delete"I'm not trying to suggest that the way we are is more 'correct' than any other. It's just what works for us and what we've settled into." - Thank you for clarifying. I am convinced that there is no "right" way to do DD or FLR, and there are many different approaches that are at least roughly equally valid, leaving a whole lot up to the motivations, objectives, preferences, and personalities of the couple.
"One of the things we discussed when we started this, and that really struck home for me, was that for our disciplinary relationship to work, it has to be at least as fulfilling and fun for her as it is for me." - Fully agree. In fact, I think that DD often only really takes root when the wife or female partner realizes that it benefits her. At that point, she does it because she wants to, not just to fulfill her partner's fantasy - though it of course almost does that too, since almost without exception it was his fantasy what caused the disciplinary relationship to start. I think that as long as the DD element is seen as increasingly beneficial to her, it is also likely to push the relationship more towards the FLR end of the spectrum.
"It would be WORK for her, an indulgence of my fantasies rather than hers." Regarding the whole leather clad thing, interestingly enough for my wife and I
it is her who kind of gets into the whole domina clothing thing, not me. Just to be clear, I don't think there is anything wrong with her indulging his fantasies, or for him to indulge hers. I would even take that further and say that any person who is in a relationship would have to be almost insane to not try to fulfill their partners' fantasies wherever possible; unfulfilled fantasies often result in damaged or destroyed relationships, and fulfilled fantasies almost always strengthen relationships.
"She's not playing a role. She's doing what she really wants." - this is definitely my wife when it comes to DD. BTW, she doesn't usually change clothing at all for punishment spankings, but rather just stays dressed as normal. However, my wife does also really get into roleplay, which is a totally separate thing for us. Since she gets excited by roleplay, I now get into it too, even though I didn't really care much about it before.
-ZM
I agree with you both on the premise that DD is likely to work only--or at least work best--when the wife finds some concrete benefit in it for her. Some may be nice enough to do it as an indulgence, but that's a pretty flimsy on which to build any aspect of a relationship.
DeleteOn dressing up, particularly dressing up like a dominatrix or something like that, I'm sure it varies a lot by both wife and husband. It sounds like for K, it's kind of a turn-on but not for his wife. With ZM, it's the opposite.
BTW, I'll use this thread as an opportunity to plug one of my new guilty pleasures, namely the series Billions on Showtime. It begins with a, for TV, pretty shocking bit of BDSM play, including one of the primary characters dressed up in full Dom attire. Great scene, and a pretty fun series. One thing that's interesting about that scene and those to characters is it's never quite clear to me whether both are into it, or whether the wife is merely indulging her husband's kink.
Dan and ZM, re: dressing up, etc.
DeleteJ and I started our relationship (over a decade before it became a FLR) fairly kinky. She (and I) enjoyed (and enjoy) erotic roleplay with explicitly "sexy" power exchange, etc, with both of us sometimes switching roles. But that's bedroom play. Our FLR is 24/7, and that's very different. For her especially, the rhythm of that has to be different and sustainable or it would be exhausting and quickly become a chore rather than a choice. It would be a full-time indulgence of her understanding of my fantasies, rather than an expression of who she really is.
What I've found, is that for me, what we have is much better than the roleplay fantasies that we'd play with (and if I want her to dress up, I could ask, and she'd probably occasionally indulge me as a treat, because we love and want to please each other). But in our day-to-day FLR, when she corrects me or spanks me (in her non-bitchy way), it's REAL. That's still mind-blowingly good for me, even after a decade, and she thrives in it, too.
Will check out Billions, thanks for the tip.
K
Hi Dan,
ReplyDeleteI did want to comment on a few more things you wrote:
“For me, I think these two aspects of DD and FLR relationships—authority and embarrassment—are intimately connected.” - Even though we have talked about it before, this connection between authority and embarrassment seemed like a new and great insight to me this time, especially when combined with something you said a paragraph or two later: “…for me, embarrassment that stimulates an edgy reaction seems to require both some openness about having been spanked or the prospect of being spanked plus some expression or communication about it that reflects my wife’s authority.”
I said before that I would be more embarrassed about someone knowing about my wife spanking me than if someone knew about my wife having authority over me, but that was at best partially correct. As an example there is my female friend that I told straight out that my wife has authority, makes lists of things I need to do, etc. And when she asked what happens if I don’t finish the list, I jokingly said “that’s when the spankings happen.” After this, even when she has made a couple of comments alluding to my wife’s authority, it has been at most mildly embarrassing. I have certainly noticed it, but it wasn’t all that embarrassing because the fact is, even though she knows my wife has authority, she doesn’t also KNOW that my wife spanks me, though she may or may not think that.
I think that probably spanking isn’t all that embarrassing in and of itself, because most people would just assume it was kinky play, and my wife having authority (being empowered to make and impose choices) is also not all that embarrassing in and of itself. But someone knowing that my wife has authority and enforces that authority with spankings is definitely more embarrassing. This is the case with my wife’s good friend and my wife’s sister. They know everything, and it is at least a bit embarrassing when I am with them, though I am surprised at just how normal everything feels.
Much higher on the embarrassing scale is someone knowing about the authority and knowing about a specific spanking which occurred or was about to occur, as you mentioned above. The one time this did happen, when my wife told her friend on the phone that she was going to punish me and then the friend was in the other room while the spanking happened, I didn’t see the friend between her telling the friend and the spanking, nor did I see her afterwards for more than a month. So while there could have been a lot of embarrassment, most of that energy had already dissipated.
What would be MUCH more embarrassing would be my wife and someone openly talking in front of me about me getting a spanking. Somehow everything comes together at that point; my wife has authority to make decisions involving me, my wife has the authority to spank me, my wife is planning to exercise her authority by spanking me, and my wife has the authority to embarrass me by openly talking about spanking me in front of someone. Authority meets spanking meets openness, resulting in a huge emotional impact.
“While I don’t like seeing other people embarrassed, part of me clearly gravitates toward the prospect of being embarrassed by my wife showing authority over me.” - I really hate seeing someone embarrassed, probably because I am so sensitive to embarrassment; I think I remember most every time I have been really embarrassed in my life.
If I were to see a wife embarrass her husband, especially if I were not into DD/FLR, I would feel bad for him and really more embarrassed for her. That is where the openness comes in, as I told SC above. If I saw this same thing and I knew that they had a DD relationship and that it was at his request, I would no longer feel awkward about what I was witnessing, I wouldn’t feel bad for the guy (in fact I would probably throw out a smart comment or two if I could fit it in), and I wouldn’t feel embarrassed for the wife, nor would I think she was a bitch in any way.
-ZM
"What would be MUCH more embarrassing would be my wife and someone openly talking in front of me about me getting a spanking." I haven't experienced exactly this scenario, but close. I've said that I told a female friend about DD. The person began as my friend, but now she and her husband are our mutual friends. After I told the friend about our DD relationship, she and my wife went to a game together, had several drinks, then called me on the phone. During that conversation, my wife told me she was going to spank me that night.
DeleteThat conversation was far more embarrassing for me that when I originally told my friend about the DD arrangement. I think a key difference is that I instigated the original conversation, while my wife and friend initiated the phone call. Opening up about DD myself doesn't seem to be all that embarrassing, but having others talk about me being subjected to DD apparently is.
Hello all, this is my second post and I am enjoying listening to others perspective on DD. Unlike others, I was spanked from a very young age right up until my 13th bday. This was the last bare bottom spanking, I received from Mom for stealing a CD. The driving force for my infatuation started at a very young age and has yet to diminish. We grew up in a religious strict household where spankings were the norm. We were paddled at school as well. The paddling took place in the hallway of the school, where others could hear but not see. The embarrassment you felt for yourself or others at the time was quite extraordinary. You knew others were paddled and you felt sad for them, but at the same time it enthralled me to a certain extent. This carried on as, I was spanked by my best friends Mom, and had seen my best friend and her sister spanked growing up. To the “bitchiness” aspect that the topic addresses, I want my wife to have a more stern bitchiness no-nonsense tone when she is upset and mad and wants to deliver a punishment. When I think back to the spankings delivered by Mom or the principal, it was a no nonsense type of punishment. The actions required consequences period. A case in point about embarrassment, my wife and I were on vacation in the Caribbean on a cruise. We had went to the beach and the sun got the better of me and then I decided to indulge in a rum tasting. That was probably not the smartest move. I became a bit belligerent and my wife was not happy. I was not rude to anyone but did not want to stop having a great time. As we approached the port security checkpoint, my wife and I were having a quiet discussion about my attitude. Unbeknownst to me, a Caribbean female security officer overheard our conversation. She replied to my wife, you should check him and whip that bottom. My wife’s response to her, was don’t worry that’s exactly what he’s getting the minute we get back to the room. As I was trying to process what the security officer stated, I felt myself clearly flushed with embarrassment. I immediately became quite and humbled. As we went through the gate, the female stated someone’s in trouble and my wife said, he won’t be sitting comfortably for dinner. She replied, you go girl he needs it. Inside, I knew I would never see this female again, but I wanted to crawl into a hole and die. This would never occur at home, but my wife felt comfortable knowing we would never see her again as well. My wife took me into the room and pulled out the strap, turned the TV up, and thrashed by bottom and thighs. As I tried to explain myself the level of “bitchiness” and authority that came across was perfect. The scolding I received that afternoon and the thrashing; was the prime example of what I feel a DD punishment should be. Consequences for actions. I just wish that she could be in that frame of mind at all times. I’m sure like all other couples, DD is constant work and the ebbs and flows are a struggle at times. A side note, it could be a Caribbean thing, but this was not the first time a female on an island mentioned a whipping to me. I’m wondering how many DD wives are on these islands?
ReplyDeleteT
"To the “bitchiness” aspect that the topic addresses, I want my wife to have a more stern bitchiness no-nonsense tone when she is upset and mad and wants to deliver a punishment. When I think back to the spankings delivered by Mom or the principal, it was a no nonsense type of punishment."
DeleteI totally get this. There is something about the whole "no nonsense" vibe that is very stimulating to me. Though, genuine expressions of anger do it for me, too.
Hi Dan and Club Members. Good to "see" everyone again - I've been preoccupied as of late with other, more pressing commitments. I hope to post a bit more tomorrow, but thought I would add a bit of history, based on one of the comments noted above.
ReplyDeleteAunt Kay did indeed require a personal phone call in order to "join" the Disciplinary Wives Club (DWC) - which was mostly a private Yahoo Group, although there were a couple of real life gatherings. When you emailed her with a request to join the private group, she would ask for a phone number. When she received the phone number, she would set up a time to call you by email, then she would call from a private number, and speak to both the husband and wife. My wife and I went through this process with Aunt Kay. She was very pleasant and friendly and I recall her offering my wife some advice on the DWC lifestyle in general and discussing the philosophy with me. We ended up talking to her a few times over a couple of years as I soon found myself in the role of her assistant in moderating the second of the private DWC Yahoo groups. The first one (before my time) was called "The Sanctuary" but Yahoo had shut it down a few months before I joined. She had decided to set up another one, however, and I enrolled to assist her with it - the second one was called "The Gathering Place". I think we survived somewhat over a year before Yahoo shut us down - and really for no good reason - as Aunt Kay ran a "tight ship" in regard to what was posted - domestic discipline discussion only (no kink or femdom, and no profanity). After the group was closed we corresponded occasionally for some time, although we never attended any of the real life gatherings.
The phone call was obviously her way of making sure she had only "real life" DWC couples in the group - as she was very well aware of the large number of men who fantasized about F/M discipline. Of course, many DWC couples were not willing to give out their numbers, and there were some interesting stories on the group of the lengths the husbands would go to to talk their wives into making the phone call.
--al
Hi Al,
DeleteGreat to "see" you back!
Of course the DWC was one of the first and best-known websites devoted to domestic discipline, but it is still surprising just how huge of an influence it had and continues to have today, considering it wasn't THAT large of a group. I wonder to what degree its outsize influence is precisely because it consisted of verified real people who at least claimed to be disciplinary couples? I have a feeling that the phone call was one of the largest causes of it having such a long lasting impact.
"Of course, many DWC couples were not willing to give out their numbers" - on-line anonymity always is a concern for many, so phone calls may be out, but email is ok. It is easy to get extra email addresses, and as long as you only use that email address for DD related things (and don't choose use your real name and city as your address) it is silly to worry too much about an individual knowing the real identity behind an email.
Considering the wealth of digital communication tools available today, it seems simple enough to send a link to an email address (from the host's DD-related address of course). Assuming that at least one of the services out there (zoom, etc.) would allow someone to log into a video call using a link without establishing an account, then a simple 1 minute conversation could establish several things:
- verify that you are a unique person. If the same person tried to establish several identities, it would be pretty clear to the host that he/she had talked to that person before and that they were "reincarnated" as someone else.
- If their female partner was also on camera at the same time, then it would establish that either they were an actual DD couple, or at least a couple where the female partner knew about the desire for this. At that point, they would become a verified couple.
This would not be foolproof, but it would be close enough for purposes of a group.
- someone could get someone to call in on their behalf to establish a second identity, but that would require them telling someone about their DD desires and their desire to be part of this group. I am pretty sure that would weed out 99.9% of the imposters.
- someone could find some random female to call in with them and pretend to be their disciplinarian partner, but again this would require them finding some female willing to do this and telling them about DD, etc. so I think it just wouldn't happen enough to matter.
- Finally, of course they could be a real couple not actually into DD, but purporting to be, but again, since they would have talked with each other about DD, who really cares if they haven't put it into practice?
Some might still be unwilling to do this, especially since the host would be able to actually see them for a minute, but since they would also see him, both parties have similar - albeit small - risk. Plus, establishing who a random person is in a video call is not particularly easy, unless you have access to the NSA's or FBI's facial recognition technology. And of course people could always use filters or wear a hat or something to make it impossible for their identity to be known. Even then it would be pretty obvious if you had talked to the same person 5 times, all with different names!
To me, there would be great value in knowing that posts under different identities are actually different people. Individual contributors would always be welcome, but hopefully we would end up with at least some verified couples whose input and participation would be just golden.
-ZM
Thanks for the background, al. And, welcome back.
Delete"Of course, many DWC couples were not willing to give out their numbers, and there were some interesting stories on the group of the lengths the husbands would go to to talk their wives into making the phone call." That is very interesting. I think I would have had a very hard time convincing my wife to make such a call. At least when we were first starting. Perhaps it would be different today.
I recall one story in which a DWC husband spend a weekend retiling their laundry room as the "price" for his wife agreeing to the phone call. :) As I recall, he was a "handy" type of guy and had also soundproofed a room in their home, so that spankings could take place regardless of who else was in the house. --al
DeleteWe frequently talk here about establishing the FLR into the real world - certainly building a soundproof room takes that to another level!
DeleteBut what always resonates with me is the dynamic of husbands being challenged, or couples cooperating, to create a solution where his punishment will be more easily facilitated and more severe.
I can't say we've done that in terms of construction, though we've certainly walked the aisles of craft and home stores evaluating what might serve as a more effective paddle!
CrimsonKing
Back when the kids were still living with us, I wondered from time to time about what it would take to fully soundproof a room.
DeleteMy wife and I have thought about and talked about a soundproof room many times in the past couple of years, especially as we are thinking about hopefully building a new home in a few years. As many things like this tend to go, if we ever actually do it, it will come at a time that we don't really need it all that much, since we are empty nesters now, with certain exceptions (usually in the summertime). And likely, the frequency and length of our children's stays will decrease as they grow up and get busier with life, jobs, family, etc.
DeleteOne thing that we have playfully discussed surrounding this is we have imagined if the room was REALLY hidden and soundproof, how interesting (and crazy) it would be if she ever decided to use it while we had a party or dinner at our house. We have had a lot of fun imagining how it would feel if she discretely sent me to the room and then slipped out to punish me. Then I would have to re-enter the party and act totally natural, like nothing had ever happened. This is of course more on the "play" side than "real DD," because obviously she could just wait until everyone left to punish me, with no room required. But if we had a room and she intentionally used it while everyone was there, it would be either to make a very big impact or more as a kinky secret game of sorts.
-ZM
One thing I thought about after writing was that using a soundproof room is kind of the opposite of telling others or overtly exercising authority. Somehow, the idea of being spanked when others are nearby and clueless to what is going on - so everything remains a kinky secret - seems pretty edgy and exciting. At the same time, I have made it abundantly clear to everyone on the blog that I am VERY fascinated with telling others, open conversation in front of others, exercise of authority in front of others, and maybe eventually having an actual witness. What is most surprising as I think about it is not that these two things are both very exciting, even though they are about as opposite as you can get, but rather that both of them are quite a bit more exciting than just being spanked with others completely removed from the picture.
Delete-ZM
I'm kind of fascinated by hidden rooms in houses, though not really for kinky or disciplinary purposes. What gets me is, as you point out, the opposite -- scenarios centering on being seen or overheard. It's things like woodsheds, where someone next door might be within earshot.
DeleteThere was a time that I thought a lot about soundproof rooms, but that was really all about the practical need at that point in life to find ways to carry on DD with kids still living at home.
I had to get over being thought of as a bitch in my relationships, not at work. I enjoyed being a "bitch" a "cunt" a "Karen" or whatever my subordinates wanted to call me at work where I couldn't hear it (but a snitch later told me about). My job does demand a bit of bitchiness if I'm to succeed at it. When I get called one of those things I actually enjoy it. If a subordinate calls me that to my face or in front of other subordinates, of course, I have to do something about it, but if it's behind my back I can let it go. I just like being known as one of those at work or even as a customer. I'm the original meaning of a "Karen". I'm the annoying, assertive customer who actually is right but it's a pain for them to treat me right. I have to have a reason to be bitchy and my work and businesses to give me plenty of reasons.
ReplyDeleteLike somebody mentioned, if your boss is a guy and he's giving you negative feedback or even yelling at you, of course you think he's a "dick" "douchebag" or "asshole". My fave name for a male superior who chewed me out, even when I knew I deserved it, was "buttwipe" and yes, I got screamed at on occasion in my early years.
It was actually husband who got me to be assertive in relationships. He always told me I should say it if I have something to say. Once I became comfortable saying it, the jump to doing it was easy. I just had to get over my fears at the beginning.
Husband would never call me any of those things to my face, but I'm sure he's thinkging at least one of them when I announce he's under discipline or when he's standing in the corner in his heels and lingerie, hands at his side, sniffling and just wanting to touch his smoldering bottom (I don't allow him to touch his bottom after I've paddled it). If he's thinking one or all of those names, it actually makes me happy. I've never asked him. I'm sure he'd be honest if I did.
Understand, I'm not bitchy all the time. I just love being a bitch when the opportunity comes for it. I don't look for it, but when it's presented to me, I don't run from it, oh no, I run AT it. My, my! I've never used so many bad words in a post on this blog.
Hi Ms. Cecilia,
Delete"Once I became comfortable saying it, the jump to doing it was easy. I just had to get over my fears at the beginning." - Amazing insight. Once you overcome the fear of saying it, doing it isn't all that scary. Plus, this whole week's topic revolves around the tremendous power of the spoken word, though we haven't really talked about that.
"Husband would never call me any of those things to my face, but I'm sure he's thinkging at least one of them when I announce he's under discipline or when he's standing in the corner in his heels and lingerie, hands at his side, sniffling and just wanting to touch his smoldering bottom (I don't allow him to touch his bottom after I've paddled it)." - Your posts always result in such vivid mental images, which often come back long after I read the post.
"Understand, I'm not bitchy all the time. I just love being a bitch when the opportunity comes for it. I don't look for it, but when it's presented to me, I don't run from it, oh no, I run AT it." - Love it! It seems that you get a bit of charge out of releasing your "inner bitch." Good for you!
-ZM
Thanks, Celia. I don't have much to add to ZM's comments. Great observations on learning to embrace "bitchiness."
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMy lady friend does maintenance spankings once a week, plus discipline when needed. Because I asked her to do this, as most of us guys have done, it's hard to see how any guy would complain about his partner doing what he asked her to do, let alone refer to her as a bitch. My lady friend has told me that sometimes she has felt uneasy about hurting me, and that sometimes giving a hard spanking goes against how she was taught to gentle and kind. It has been a slow process for her to truly understand that by setting clear bounderies and then providing consequences, it is good for both of us and improves our relationship. One result is that I have become much more attentive to her needs. Another bennifet of knowing I will be getting a maintenance spanking every week is that it really helps reduce my PTSD from Vietnam. Calling a woman a bitch for being assertive is common, as we live in a male domanated patriarchy. Giving your partner the authority and the power to spank you for any reason goes directly against it, which I think is the reason so many of us are cautious to let others know about our lifestyle.
ReplyDeleteOn the thought of what it would be like if husbands getting spanked were a "normal" part of the typical couple's married life, I had a couple of interesting moments during those first couple of years involving my wife's Mom (now passed on). The first was on a Saturday morning. The kids were out somewhere, and I was over Susan's lap right in the middle of a sound bottom blistering, when the phone rang (back when we had wired phones by the bed). Susan kept on paddling as the phone rang, but finally stopped and picked up the phone - and I heard her say, "Let me call you back in a few, Mom. I'm right in the middle of something" - And for a split second, I thought for sure that we was going to say "right in the middle of spanking Al". A few months after that, on another Saturday, the kids were again out somewhere, and Susan had gone shopping with her Mom. Before she left I had done something to earn a spanking but the kids were still there, so she told me that would be back later after they left to take care of that. Well, a couple of hours later, I saw her car pull up, and her Mom in the car with her. I watched as she got out of the car, leaving the car running and her Mom in the car. She walked in the front door, ordered me to the bedroom and paddled me as her Mom waited in the car. My wife usually spanks briskly so she delivered the usual hundred in short order, and left me sniffling on the bed as she rejoined her Mom and left again. Later, she told me that she had told her Mom she had to stop by to go over a few things with me before I left for the afternoon - and that she would only be a couple of minutes.
ReplyDeleteWhile I doubt that we will ever be "out" to anyone other than her sister (who knows of our lifestyle) we don't take the idea of being discovered anywhere near as seriously as we did in the beginning. A couple of years back, one of my wife's neighborhood girl friends stopped by and happened to see a paddle laying on the coffee table (we've gotten careless since the kids moved out) - and asked with a smile if someone got paddled. My wife immediately replied, "Oh, Al does all the time - he's always misbehaving" to which I added, "Well, boys will be boys". She just laughed and nothing more was said, but I have to believe she was very curious afterwards (but probably though we were just being a little kinky - like many couples post "Shades of Gray".) --al
"She walked in the front door, ordered me to the bedroom and paddled me as her Mom waited in the car." I am very sure I would remember something like that years and years later.
Delete"While I doubt that we will ever be "out" to anyone other than her sister (who knows of our lifestyle) we don't take the idea of being discovered anywhere near as seriously as we did in the beginning." I really don't know whether we will be "out" to others beyond the one mutual friend (and I assume her husband) who know about it. I do know that, like you, I'm not nearly as concerned about being discovered or outed as I was even a few years ago.
I emphatically agree with you about that, probably due to the evolving mores in my peer groups but also likely due to other factors
DeleteAlan
Hi Al, each of these incidents resonate with me in a certain way. The phone call is interesting, because somehow, even if the person on the other end has no idea what is happening, psychologically, it is still almost like they entered the room. For example, if I were standing in the corner between rounds of a punishment, and if my wife calls someone and talks, it somehow still makes me feel vulnerable and exposed. The last incident mentioned involving the paddle being seen and ensuing conversation is also quite exciting. And I think it in a way also shows that spanking, in and of itself, is not necessarily embarrassing, since as kinky play it has become very mainstream. In this case, your wife did say that you are spanked for misbehavior, but still it sounds like the general mood was still pretty jovial. I am imagining how different it might have felt if your wife had went into greater detail and told the friend about your DD relationship, or even worse made you tell the friend. And of course, if the paddle was sitting out, it probably had recently been used or was soon to be used, so the whole thing would become that much more embarrassing if your wife had said something to the effect of "Al and I have a disciplinary relationship where I spank him when he misbehaves or has a bad attitude. He asked me to do this because he feels like he needs this external discipline to help keep his behavior and attitude in check. Al, why don't you tell _______ why I paddled you last night and why you are having a hard time sitting still today."
ReplyDelete-ZM
ZM,
DeleteI did have an experience along those lines some time ago with the G,F, who brought me into the world of DD. Her best friend from college (roommate I think) was interested in introducing spanking into her relationship and my G,F. wanted to help. With my agreement the three of us had a more or less informal but long discussion during which I told her my G.F. spanked me, why she did it and how I felt about it and why I wanted it to happen. My G.F. added a lot to the discussion.
Since then I have told others one on one that I am spanked, but that was the only time in a “group” setting. As I remember it, I was a little embarrassed at the beginning {maybe a lot embarrassed} even though her girlfriend already knew quite a lot and I was aware of that. But once we got into it (lubricated some with wine), the discussion flowed very smoothly and almost clinically. I think my G.F.’s presence made it much more comfortable than it would have been.
If my wife asked me to do something like that today with a woman, a couple or even another guy who expressed an interest as her girlfriend did, I think I would be very comfortable having a similar discussion. But it would need to be someone with a genuine interest in DD spanking.
Alan
Hi Alan, your comment and one that Dan made earlier made me think that there are at least three things that would determine just how embarrassing this is:
Delete- Does the other person (other than your partner) have a genuine interest in spanking? If so, this would make it less embarrassing, particularly if they are more on the submissive (for lack of a better word) side.
- Who is doing the talking? As Dan said earlier, "Opening up about DD myself doesn't seem to be all that embarrassing, but having others talk about me being subjected to DD apparently is." I too expect it would be much less embarrassing for me to to talk about it than to have my wife talk about me being subject to her discipline.
- And I think it would be much easier to talk about (or even have my wife talk about) the relationship and the fact that my wife spanks me than it would be to have the conversation be about a particular recent spanking or probably even worse an upcoming spanking. This is basically this weeks topic with all subtlety removed.
-ZM
An update on this. My wife and I were talking this morning about my comment, and she disagreed with me on most every aspect of my first point. Of course, neither of us really know much about this; she has told others much more than I have, but she also has a lot less reason to feel embarrassed than I would if I were sitting there.
DeleteOn the first point, I said that if the person had a genuine interest in spanking it would make it less embarrassing. She kind of thinks the opposite. Assuming that they are open minded, which really is a prerequisite for anyone hearing or seeing anything, then she thinks if they are not interested they won't think much about it and probably won't talk much about it. She used the example of her sister, who she told everything to last fall. Her sister was fine with hearing all this, but she just isn't into it at all. While I expect it was still an interesting conversation for her, it just didn't really matter to her at all. It was about the same as my wife telling her what she made for dinner.
Also, my wife thought that if the person did happen to be interested in spanking or power exchange in some way, it wouldn't matter if they were more dominant or submissive. On this, I disagree somewhat, because I was saying that if they were thinking they were more submissive, they probably are imagining if it was happening to them, whereas if they were more dominant, they might be imagining if they were the one punishing me.
We both agreed about it would be less embarrassing for me to tell someone than it would be for them to be talking about me in front of me. The possible exception to this would be if we were with someone and my wife instructed me to tell them, which I think might be even harder than if they were talking about me like I wasn't there. So it seems like this one may be more about who is making the decision to tell. Basically, if I choose to tell someone, even if my wife is there, that is no big deal, but if my wife openly exerts her authority and either talks about me like I am not there (like a little child), or makes me tell someone, that really ups the embarrassment.
And finally, we agreed on the last point. It is much less embarrassing for someone to know that you "are spanked" than for them to know that you "were spanked" or "will be spanked."
Of course, in the end neither of us really know much about this with our very limited experience, but I thought the different perspective was good.
-ZM
I absolutely love the fact that you and your wife are talking about your comments and that you're conveying her disagreements back to us! I hope she keeps that up!
Delete"While I expect it was still an interesting conversation for her, it just didn't really matter to her at all. It was about the same as my wife telling her what she made for dinner." I think that pretty much sums up the reaction of my female friend when I told her about it. She's interested, but mainly because it's something about a friend, namely me. The topic itself, I don't think it does much of anything for her.
I don't think J shares specifics about when or how she disciplines me with anyone, although we do have friends who know that she does (in general terms). I think she'd only share details with someone we had a very intimate relationship with, someone she'd be equally comfortable saying something like "K went down on me three times last night!". As far as I know and can tell, that's nobody, but I've never asked her. It certainly wouldn't be anyone we know professionally. It would have to be an exclusively social relationship (and most of our friends also know one or the other of us professionally)..
DeleteI'd be embarrassed if she did tell others, but it would be less about her talking about the punishment I received than her revealing whatever it was I did to deserve it.
K
"I'd be embarrassed if she did tell others, but it would be less about her talking about the punishment I received than her revealing whatever it was I did to deserve it." I totally get that. I think it would work that way for me, too.
DeleteMy wife too seems to have few friendships that include explicit discussions about sex. In fact, as far as I know, she has none. Though, I don't know why I'm surprised about that. It's not like I have friends I talk to about sexual details. And, like you, most of our friendships are extensions of workplace relationships.
Dan wrote: “For me, I think these two aspects of DD and FLR relationships—authority and embarrassment—are intimately connected. While I don’t like seeing other people embarrassed, part of me clearly gravitates toward the prospect of being embarrassed by my wife showing authority over me.”
ReplyDeleteI have often thought about this since I have never been particularly good at obeying authority in the external world and don’t like to be embarrassed “out there” or to see anyone else embarrassed. Yet I seek out my wife’s disciplinary authority and accept the embarrassment that comes from being under her discipline
Part of the explanation for this contradiction from the alpha male I am in the external world to the subject to female authority male I am in my marriage is the huge erotic charge that comes from it for both of us.
But I think independent and underneath that erotic charge is a strong need for female authority in an intimate relationship. And the embarrassment becomes a byproduct of that for an alpha male. I think the embarrassment trims our ego and allows us to obey and submit to female authority.
There have been several times in my DD relationships with two different women that the sexual charge was temporarily removed while both the embarrassment and the discipline continued. Experiencing that makes submitting to female authority harder and the embarrassment more acute – but it doesn’t change for me the basic need to have female authority exercised and it doesn’t change the way I respond to that exercise of authority.
So embarrassment at some level is probably necessary for the alpha type to fully embrace and experience female authority in a DD relationship. Over time for us my embarrassment has decreased when I am disciplined but my sense of her authority and power has grown further making me think the role of embarrassment in DD is to make it easier for the male to initially accept discipline
Alan
"But I think independent and underneath that erotic charge is a strong need for female authority in an intimate relationship. And the embarrassment becomes a byproduct of that for an alpha male. I think the embarrassment trims our ego and allows us to obey and submit to female authority."
DeleteI think this is probably right for me as well. I also think the embarrassment reinforces that the discipline is both (a) real; and (b) imposed, to some extent whether I want it or not in that moment.
Good point, Dan, that the embarrassment is kind of a validation that the discipline is real and imposed.
Delete"I think the embarrassment trims our ego and allows us to obey and submit to female authority." - I agree, and now that I think about it, I wonder if maybe this embarrassment is much of what drives the spiral of submission I feel when my wife spanks me. I often start out as almost defiant or smart-mouthed, but as soon as the spanking starts, I begin to get submissive quickly, and the submission seems to deepen the longer it goes on.
-ZM
My wife for many years wasn't bitchy at all. It has changed when I admitted to her that I would like her to show her authority publicly as an experiment. I have proposed, that whenever she does it, she will get bonus points (5 each time), and for 50 points I will purchase her a nice present. She agreed. The list of authorities was precised: she orders me to do something, starting from "Husband, I want you to....". Seceond was that whenever in conversation with friends the topic of housekeeping occurs, she openly says I do housekeeping. At first she was shy, but she gained confidence fast. Now, after one year, she has collected a really nice bunch of presents, and sometimes she can be so bitchy that other people sometimes ask her to slow down. And she never does :) I must say that this is embarassing and sexy, if fact more embarassing that being spanked by her.
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