Monday, July 19, 2021

The Club - Meeting 379 - Topic Potpourri

The rate at which a person can mature is directly proportional to the embarrassment he can tolerate. - Douglas Engelbart

 

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships. I hope you all had a great week.

 

How is your summer going?  Although I can’t say we’ve done a whole lot, our summer seems to be cruising by a little too quickly for comfort.  We took one vacation, but other than that our weeks seem pretty predictable and consistent.  We both made health and fitness a priority for the summer, though in my case it really wasn’t optional.  I had some rehabilitation work that needed to get done, and it does feel a little like rehabbing a dilapidated house that has seen its better days but in theory with a lot of work could be renovated successfully.  So, for both of us the summer has involved a lot of time at your neighborhood gym. The results have been encouraging, though I truly believe a short course in gym etiquette should be a condition of membership.

 

 

I’ve also spent a fair amount of time on my motorcycle.  Although I’ve spent a bit of time in venues where other riders congregate, sadly I haven’t seen any riders quite this dedicated to the brand:

 

 


 Maybe because I have been keeping busy with other summer projects, my blogging inspiration dry spell continues.  I don’t have a coherent, well-defined topic in mind for this week, so instead I’m just going to throw some thoughts out there and you can respond to anything that catches your interest.

 

We spent a couple of weeks here talking about age, maturity and discipline.  I did have one follow-up, partially in response to a question one of our commenters brought to me off-line.  In discussion whether a certain level of maturity/age is generally a prerequisite for taking up the paddle, Al had the following observation:

 

I once saw a quote somewhere that said that "kinky' women were subs in their 20's, switches in their 30's, and dominants in their 40's. And we actually had a "kinky" friend for whom this exact scenario played out. And it is interesting that the dominant phase correlates with our observations as to when most women tend to be willing to become disciplinary wives.

 

My follow-up question is, do men often go through a similar cycle from “bottom” to “switch” or “top”?  Based on the comments here, it doesn’t really seem so.  If anything, it seems to be the opposite – some men begin exploring DD or spanking kink as the spanker but later become “bottoms” exclusively.  Any thoughts on why that might be the case?  Why do many women who gain some maturity and kink experience migrate toward more dominant roles over time, while for men things seem to go in the opposite direction?  Any thoughts?

 

 

While our summer has been spent mainly on non-DD activities and there has not been a lot of spanking action, there has been some, including one incident that might spur some interest.  Anne decided I needed a spanking for a bit of bad behavior, but she had not specified a time for it to take place.  In the middle of the afternoon, she told me it was time and instructed me to bring her hairbrush. I did as she ordered and then went over to the window to lower the window shades in our bedroom, but she told me to leave them up!  She then told me to get undressed and to get over her knee, after she sat down on the ottoman in front of our bed.  I did so, and she proceeded to give me a vigorous OTK spanking.  Now, I really doubt anyone saw me getting undressed or getting spanked, but it is not completely outside the realms of possibility.  We live in a suburban environment, in a neighborhood with fairly small lots, and there is a house directly behind us.  While unlikely in the middle of the day, it certainly is possible that one of backyard neighbors could have been in his/her bedroom and looked through the trees to ours at just the right time.  I can’t recall any other time Anne has been quite so cavalier about someone finding out about our DD relationship, let alone risking someone actually seeing a spanking in progress.

 

 

On a more abstract note, another thing I’ve spent a lot of time on this summer is training a Covid puppy who has been severely lacking in social skills.  It has taken a hell of a lot time and attention, and imposition of both coercive/corrective stimuli to prevent/punish bad behavior and rewards to encourage modeling good behaviors.  On several walks, it really has jumped out to me just how much successful dog training overlaps with principles we’ve talked about here for years, including:

 

·      Preventing the bad behavior before it happens is often more effective than punishing it after-the-fact.  With our dog, that involves getting his attention quickly as soon as I notice him starting to get riled up about other dogs or other things that he generally reacts to.  A sharp command or tap of his e-collar at the first signs of reactivity is WAY more effective than trying to bring him back into control after he’s already started freaking out.

·      While I sometimes feel bad about the consistent consequences that are required for him to really absorb the lessons and behave better consistently, in the end its better than what might have to happen if the trend of reactivity and aggression he was on had continued.  In short, in the moment consistent discipline is hard for both the disciplining and disciplined parties, but it’s worth it for both.

·      Imposing boundaries on my dog has actually made him less agitated and more relaxed on our walks.  He seems to get that he doesn’t have to take the lead and that life is easier for him when he doesn’t.

·      If you give the dog a command four times and he ignores you three times and then you finally do something about it on the fourth ignored command, without you essentially are training him to know he can ignore you three out of four times without suffering any consequences.

 

I’ve thought about dog training as a metaphor for husband training a lot over the last few weeks, including the value of consistency.  Maybe with that in mind, a week ago I let Anne know (in a journal entry), that in my view some of my recent behavioral backsliding really needed to be dealt with.  Now, it is very rare that I will come right out and ask that bad behavior be addressed.  In fact, in general I am pretty relieved when I get away with things that I know probably should have earned a spanking.  So, it was with more than a little trepidation that I suggested to her that something needed to be dealt with, and I assumed that I would be blogging this week about the topics of “asking for it” and “consistency.”  But, that isn’t how it turned out (so far, at least).  Perhaps more on that next time.

 

I’m not sure when “next time” may be.  I have a mini-adventure planned for next week, and it’s pretty likely that I will not get around to blogging next week.  In the meantime, I hope you are enjoying your summer.


47 comments:

  1. That's an interesting development Dan of Anne insisting the window shades remain up.
    I know the blinds in our bedroom are almost always closed, which begs the question did Anne open them before your spanking ?
    My wife and is the opposite , insisting that doors are closed and locked before starting a spanking.
    Well at least she didn't leave the window open as well so the neighbours might hear something!

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    1. Hi Dan,
      I don’t know if Anne is making a statement or not but its more than possible –something like “I don’t care who knows you get spanked if you are going to behave like that”. My wife has often stopped me from closing windows or doors. That’s as far as she has gone but my former girlfriend did administer an early spanking in front of a picture window to make a point and when my wife makes me leave things open it seems like she is trying to make a point as well.
      Alan

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    2. I honestly don't know exactly what statement she was making, if any. She may have just wanted to add to the potential embarrassment. I've also referred her a couple of times to a comment from Danielle some weeks ago maternal discipline, in which Danielle mused that with real maternal discipline, the mother would feel no need to hide their status and would be open about how things are. Perhaps she was reacting to that? I really don't know, but it definitely was something new.

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    3. Most Mothers seem to prefer 'on the spot' spankinfs and wouldn't bother to even order you to the bedroom for privacy. You would get it right there in the living room or kitchen and if the hairbrush wasn't nearby you would get it with the wooden spoon , spatula or whatever is near to her.
      Did you ever consider hanging a wooden spoon on the wall with a plaque indicating it's use like KD has?
      KD's spoon looks like a lethal weapon and would certainly get the attention of visitors !

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    4. I have such torn feelings on the whole openness thing. On the one hand, I wish that spanking could just be a little more matter of fact, kind of like it was in the home and back in school, rather than having to be hidden. I guess I somewhat feel morbidly fascinated with the accompanying embarrassment that came with the very open discipline that was prevalent during my childhood.

      On the other hand, I also think the special intimacy that spousal DD has, and the hidden nature of it and the naughtiness of the shared secret attracts me to it.

      In the end, the totally open thing will never happen because it simply wouldn't be socially acceptable and would make many people uncomfortable. And I do probably want to keep DD as a shared secret of sorts. So what seems like the best balance for me is to have one or two close people who are in on the secret, which would give me all of the feelings of having people know, but would also keep DD special and intimate in a way.

      -ZM

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  2. I experienced something similar to you a couple of months ago. I was in a position where my wife, Hazel, was spanking me over and over again for the exact same offense. Normally, her punishments are enough to where I rarely (if ever) repeat whatever the offense is. This time, it was a bad habit that she was bound and determined to put a halt to (Smoking). Finally it got to the point where she said it would be something really bad that I'd never forget if she had to spank me for the cigarettes one more time.

    After that, she came home early one day on a Friday afternoon and caught me smoking one out on the front porch. I tried to flick it away, but she had already seen it. I told her I'd go get the bath brush (Her preferred implement along with a wooden hairbrush), but she said not to bother. The way she put it (which is kind of amusing in retrospect) is that, since I liked smoking on the porch so much, I was getting smoked on the porch to make it even. We live out in the country, but the front of our house is only about 18 feet away from a moderately busy back road. On average, someone drives past every couple of minutes and a lot of them are neighbours and people we know

    My eyes almost bugged out of my head and I asked what if a neighbor or someone else we knew drove by. She said it was too bad and I should have thought of that while lighting my last cigarette. I started begging her to do it inside, but she said I'd be grounded for the weekend too if I didn't stop whining and cooperate. Considering what normally happens when she grounds me (See my comment on the previous post), I wasn't about to add to my current humiliation. She pulled up an old chair we leave on the porch and pulled me over towards her, unbuckled my belt (along with front button and zipper on my jeans) and pulled it loose, put me across her lap, and pulled the back of my jeans and briefs down. She had wrapped the belt around her hand a few times and just started going to town on me. I kept my eye on that road the whole time through my tears hoping nobody would come by. Unfortunately, two did go by before she finished. Whether they noticed or not, I don't know. I didn't recognize the cars, so at least that's a plus.

    After she was done, she demanded I bring her any packs of cigarettes I may have had left. I only had the one at the time. Then she said to go inside the house and finish the chores. After chores were out of the way, she sent me to our room for the rest of the night. What a great way to spend a Friday evening!

    -Trent

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    1. Of course, Dan. Thanks for this space where I can feel a little less isolated in my present circumstances. Maybe feel a like there is a little more normalcy for a man like myself. It is admittedly a situation I thought I'd never end up in.

      - Trent

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  3. Danielle here:

    I suggested the topic of switching to Dan because lately Wayne has been practically begging me to let him spank me. His desire to spank me is not entirely new. He has occasionally “offered” to spank me in the past, as though he thinks it is selfish of him to always receive without ever giving. At one point he even suggested that one day per month we should switch roles, so that I would have to submit to him that day the way he usually submits to me. I told him that was never going to happen, and he accepts that. But lately he has been quite persistent in his desire to spank me. He says it wouldn’t be a real role reversal because he wouldn’t be disciplining me, he would be spanking me erotically. By that he means that he would only use his hand, that it “wouldn’t hurt very much”—meaning that it would hurt a little, I guess—and that he would stop the moment I ask him to.

    I asked him why he has such a bee in his bonnet about this, and he doesn’t appear to have a clear idea beyond “you only live once”. He also says that it would be a crime for a bottom as sexy as mine not to be spanked occasionally. (As I have said before, he’s a shameless flatterer, which I don’t mind lol). He has been having some worrisome health problems lately, and I wonder whether the sudden urgency of his desire to switch is related to his anxiety about the future.

    I am not entirely averse to the idea of going over Wayne’s knee for an erotic play spanking. It could be sexy. On the other hand, I find spanking to be a powerful symbol of the power dynamic of our FLR, and I am concerned that switching, even playfully, could muddy things. Anyway, I was just wondering how other people here feel about the idea of switching.

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    1. I've always wondered what it might be like to spank Hazel for a change, but she has always looked at me like I had grown a second head the handful of times I've even come close to the subject. The last time I did (and tried flashing her a playful smile while doing so), she looked back with a raised eyebrow and smirk and said "You're about to be so grounded that it's not even funny.". The vibe she gave saying it suggested she was at least halfway joking, but given her method of grounding (I'm not going over that again since I've already elaborated in a previous post, but it's actually worse than spanking to me) I'm not about to push my luck but so far. Being frisky or not.

      That being said, she did say once or twice in the past that she found the idea of switching kind of hot. Also, that she thought switches had the best of both worlds. If I had to guesd, I would think her reluctance is based on the same reasons you mentioned. She wants it clear to me at all times that she is in charge, and something like that could taint the whoe thing. Eventually, I may work up the nerve to ask her again after making it abundantly clear that it's a playful, "Let's try this because it could be fun" sort of way. Whether or not she'll agree, I don't know. But what's life without taking a chance now and then.

      My advice to you, if I may, would be to try it at least once. But also, make sure certain conditions are in place and understood first. For example, make absolutely sure that he knows it's a playing around thing only and not some covert way of trying to get back at you for his past spankings. Also that, if it's something you and he end up liking, it will still only be a once in a blue moon thing so as not to "muddy the waters" too much. That's just me, though.

      - Trent

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    2. Hi Trent, it sounds like your wife is similar to me. I like to use non-spanking disciplinary measures like grounding too. Thanks for the advice. I’m thinking I may give it a try. An idea I’m playing with is to have spanking bets on games. Often we play backgammon when we have our tea in the evening, and we could have a wager where the winner gets to spank the loser. Maybe the number of pieces the loser has on the board at the end determines the number of smacks. Table tennis might be good to bet on too, since the game already uses paddles, and I don’t think those paddles hurt much. Because it would be entirely playful, maybe it wouldn’t muddy our FLR power dynamic. To make it more interesting, the stakes could be asymmetrical. If he wins he gets to spank me with his hand, or maybe a ping pong paddle. If he loses, he gets the strap. That way he would have to take a real risk to try to win the right to spank me.
      Danielle

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    3. At least I know I'm not alone in that. But yes, it's awful. The first time she did it and told me to start calling friends and canceling plans, I told her I had to think of an excuse to tell them first. She said that wasn't happening and I had to tell them truth. The main thing about it is she hates lying (One of her biggest peeves, in fact) and said the embarrassment aspect of it would be a good added incentive for me to try and avoid getting in trouble in the future. So, she stands there and watches while I make the calls, and I have to tell them I'm grounded. If I refuse to make the calls, she'll call and tell them herself. She takes my phone afterwards, so she is the only one answering it. It didn't happen often, but the few times some friends called, she told them herself I was grounded and had lost my phone privaleges. It's humiliating, but admittedly makes the whole thing more effective. Suffice it to say, I do everything I can to avoid that type of punishment beforehand.

      I'm so glad you're willing to give it a try, and the idea you had for using bets and games to to bring it about is absolutely brilliant. Makes things more fun and interesting. Not to mention a bit frisky and romantic. Genius move. I hope you don't mind if I wanted to try something like this with Hazel. Even is spanking doesn't come into play, it might make for some other sorts of fun we could use right now. Long, stressful couple of weeks.

      - Trent

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    4. Hi Danielle. The way I see it at least, is that disciplinary spanking and erotic spanking are two totally different things that don't interfere with each other. An example that comes to mind that the same gesture can mean two different things is kissing. First of all, kissing my mom and my wife are not the same despite the same word used to describe it. It's also not the same to kiss my wife as a greeting and when we're engaged in sex. The fact that I kiss as a non-sexual greeting doesn't compromise it sexually. So spanking is defined by its context, and that determines how it is administered. If it's for punishment, behavior needs to change, shame is involved, and it is sufficiently painful, the erotic spanking I gave her because she likes it is completely irrelevant. The fact is, spanking a woman's bare bottom is a pleasant or exciting sexual act for many of us, and nothing too complicated about it. You, apparently, have no urge to be spanked. You may not like it, or discover it's the greatest thing, but either way, and FWIW, I don't believe it should undermine your ability to discipline in any way.

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    5. That makes sense, Brett.
      Danielle

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    6. I'm not as sanguine about whether switching might change the DD dynamic or negatively impact the authority structure. I think it's *possible* it might all be fine, but hardly inevitable. When leaders step out of that role and into a different character, I think it can in fact affect relationships that have been designed to be hierarchical. I experienced that in a very vanilla sense recently, in a situation in which someone who had been a trainer/leader, temporarily took on more of servant role. It was a bit jarring, and it did, in fact, feel like a mixed message re: that person's role. It wasn't a big deal, but I felt like the servant aspect did somewhat undermine the leadership/trainer role. Again, I'm not saying that would always occur, but I have to disagree with the broader statement Brett seemed to be making that two contexts that are different but overlap, like DD and erotic spanking, are readily separable and easy to keep separate and distinct.

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    7. Hi Dan. Switching is an entirely different dynamic. My point was that an expression of spanking can involve no switching and, as such, in no rational sense, could it be confused as an overlap in who is leading and following. If a leader/trainer/master/top/dom temporarily takes on a servant or sub role, then that's a switch or an overlap, and knowing nothing about the people involved, I wouldn't advise them that the authority structure of their relationship shouldn't be impacted on some psychological level. OTOH, if the leader is being spanked for no reason related to power and hierarchy, then my stated opinion is that it shouldn't impact anything related to leadership, and I'm optimistic about the outcome. However, I think your less optimistic view is a real possibility. People aren't always rational. Maybe a person can't emotionally separate the act of spanking into its wide variety of possible forms, and so they might be better off limiting their range of expression.

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  4. Danielle here again:

    Dan, I thought I should weigh in on the issue of Anne leaving the blinds up to spank you because that is something I have thought about quite a bit. I most often spank Wayne in the afternoon and I usually do it with the blinds open. Our situation may be a bit different because we live in an older neighborhood where the houses are quite far apart. But there are a couple of things to consider. First, in the middle of the afternoon when it is much brighter outside than inside your house, a voyeur probably can’t see very much through the reflective surface of the window. That is especially true if the potential observer is looking in the direction of the sun. I am also aware of the sight lines in the places where I spank Wayne. If he is bent over the end of the bed or is over my knee on the ottoman, the only possible vantage point from which someone would see him would be from the roof of the house across the street. Somebody could possibly see my upper body when I am standing to paddle Wayne over the end of the bed or see my head and shoulders when I am seated on the ottoman with Wayne over my lap. I always face the window when I give a spanking because I like being able to see people pass on the street while I am doing it. That way it feels like I am spanking Wayne in public, even though he is hidden from view. Someone who looked carefully in just the right light might figure out that I was giving a spanking, but the person being spanked wouldn’t be exposed. Now if I spank Wayne at night with the lights on, we close the blinds so as not to put on a show.

    Oh, I have also spanked Wayne in a standing position at the kitchen sink, looking out the window with the blinds up. In that position our neighbors across the back fence could possibly see Wayne from the chest up while he is being spanked. So that feels a bit like a public spanking too.

    Wayne originally figured out all of this stuff about lighting and sight lines before we even started spanking because we used to find it exciting to have afternoon sex with the blinds open. When I initially objected that people might see, he showed me that you can figure out the sight lines by looking out the window with your eyes at various levels. That’s how I know that Wayne would only be visible from the roof of the house across the street when he is positioned for a spanking. He also figured out and showed me how much outside lighting conditions affect visibility.

    One other consideration. When Anne has you over her knee, does she face the window the way I do? If so, she would probably be aware if your nearby neighbor was looking a little too intently towards your window while she was spanking you.

    Have you asked Anne why she instructed you not to close the blinds while she spanked you? Was she hoping to make it feel riskier and potentially embarrassing for you? Or did it feel empowering to her, as it does to me, to spank in a way that FEELS like she is doing it in public? I am also curious about the backyard neighbors with a bedroom window facing your bedroom window. It sounds like they would be the only potential witnesses in your situation. Do you and Anne have a neighborly relationship with them, or are they more like strangers? Is it possible that Anne is interested in showing off her DD status to those particular neighbors?

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    1. Danielle wrote: “…Did it feel empowering to her, as it does to me, to spank in a way that FEELS like she is doing it in public?”
      I have seen this (her empowerment) when my wife has disciplined me in front of a witness (SIL) and don’t entirely understand it. What about the public nature of it is so empowering? I wonder if it is partly how I react to it (or Wayne does) that is different. I know I feel completely under control and feel the reality of her power. That does happen during other spankings sometimes, especially when a punishment is prolonged and there is serious scolding. But it happens every time she has spanked me with a witness. She also spanks harder and longer until I completely surrender to it and I know that’s coming, so that probably makes my response to it different. Any thoughts you have are appreciated. Empowering her is erotic for both of us, but at different times. For her it is while she is administering discipline and immediately after. For me. It is thinking about it prospectively or remembering it retrospectively but not so much when it is happening
      Alan

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    2. Why does it feel empowering to spank in way that feels like it is in public? Good question, Alan. I think if our FLR was a totally secret thing we only did when we were alone, it would feel like an erotic game. Putting the power dynamic on display somehow takes it out of the bedroom and makes it feel more real. I love, for example, that when we have guests over for dinner, my husband is the one in the kitchen wearing an apron. If that aspect of our FLR was only practiced when we were alone, I would still benefit, but I would feel as though I wasn't really the head of the household. If it is real, it shouldn't have to be entirely hidden, should it? I guess the same thing applies to spanking. Disciplinary authority feels more real if it can be put on display...even if it only feels like it is on display because the blinds are open or because it is done outside the bedroom.
      Danielle

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    3. Hi Danielle,

      "Alan. I think if our FLR was a totally secret thing we only did when we were alone, it would feel like an erotic game. Putting the power dynamic on display somehow takes it out of the bedroom and makes it feel more real."

      I know you were answering Alan, but I agree fully with what you wrote. I had to search a bit, but I found what Alan said along these lines - also excellent - back in October about the actualization or validation of witnessed (or even possibly witnessed) spankings:

      "Having a third party (first my former girlfriend’s best friend and later my wife’s sister) experience a spanking was like a quiet announcement to the world that I was under female authority and subject to discipline and that I accepted it. That moved DD from private where I could rationalize it was a form of kinky play to quasi-public where its reality was unavoidable and undeniable. So it altered my own self-perception from someone who could mark it all up to serious kinky play to a spanked boyfriend and later husband who was very much under female control. All of this was very healthy and brought me much closer to the core of who I am. Ironically in view of the great fear many of us have of someone “finding out”, it all made me care a lot less about that. Others knowing is just not that big a deal to them, so why should it be to us?"

      -ZM

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    4. All of this, Danielle’s thoughts and ZM’s comments, plus my own experience just emphasize to me what social animals we are. In effect I was saying (and Danielle and ZM are amplifying) that becoming a disciplined husband or boyfriend or a disciplinarian wife or girlfriend becomes more real when a third party is or could be aware of it. Now the objective facts are (whatever that is) that once she puts a paddle, strap or brush to your bum, you are a disciplined husband or boyfriend. But there is no doubt that adding a public aspect to it takes it to a different level. I don’t think by the way, that a spanking or other punishment needs to be actually witnessed for that to happen. There are many nuanced ways to accomplish the same thing
      Alan

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    5. Hi Danielle. Sorry for the slow response. Busy, but fun, week.

      "First, in the middle of the afternoon when it is much brighter outside than inside your house, a voyeur probably can’t see very much through the reflective surface of the window." I had this same thought. As a practical matter, I think this was more an instance of the spanking "feeling" more public than it actually would ever be. There are two houses behind us that might possibly have a line of sight to our bedroom. One is on a grade slightly higher than ours, so they have a better vantage point than your neighbors apparently do. But, there also are trees at the back of both of our lots that I think likely would block their view, at least on summer days when there are leaves on the trees and likely reflection from the glass. There is another neighbor, however, whose deck has a less obstructed view. But, the only way that person would be able to see is if they happened to be on their deck, and probably also only at night. We don't have a relationship with either set of neighbors behind us, though I have exchanged some unpleasantries with one of them over the issue of barking dogs.

      Realistically, I think it is unlikely that a neighbor could see a spanking in progress. Hearing one, however, seems more than a slight possibility. The lots in our neighborhood are pretty narrow, and I am not at all sure that a neighbor hanging out in their backyard would not hear a spanking going on in our bedroom, at least if it involved a lot of yelping. Similarly, while it hasn't happened much since we became empty nesters, Anne used to spank me in the basement, and our basement has two windows that are probably about 10 feet from my neighbors backyard. I have no doubt that someone in their backyard would be able to hear an energetic spanking through even the closed window.

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  5. Hi Dan,

    I agree that women often are more submissive in their 20’s and become more dominant in their 40’s or even 50’s. I don’t know a lot of kinky women, but I think the same pattern of increasing dominance as women age holds true, it is just expressed in different ways. I am not sure why it happens, but some factors may include societal expectations and shaping, increasing self-confidence and less concern with what others think, increasing responsibility, and more life experience.

    Other than from this site, I don’t know of any other men who are recipients of DD (though I have known a few that I would not be surprised if they were), so I can mostly only speak for myself. For men I think the pattern is less predictable than for women, or at least not as easy to generalize. Young men are characterized by excessive cockiness and aggressiveness, probably due to the combination of peak physical ability, loads of testosterone, and overall lack of maturity. Older men, in general, are more self assured (even though much less cocky) and not nearly as aggressive, so some of this might be seen as dominance and submissiveness.

    I think the same factors come into play, but affect the sexes in different ways.

    Societal expectations and shaping - Think of life as being like a chess board where in the beginning (the 20’s) all the pieces are set in their locations. Girls are taught from a young age that they should be more feminine, not too aggressive, and so on. At the same time, boys are taught to be tough and that to get ahead, they have to be aggressive. This all comes to a head during teenage and young adult years, as people are starting to get serious about relationships. If a young woman wants to attract men, she has to come across as not too loud, not excessively smart, etc. And if a young guy wants to attract girls, he needs to project alpha male in every way.

    Increasing responsibility - Adult life is characterized by ever-increasing responsibility. While both sexes encounter this in their work lives, at home many women bear much of the responsibility. Raising kids is especially challenging, and I think that this experience often gives moms a more commanding presence; moms are used to giving orders, they are used to being challenged, and they are used to ultimately prevailing! In the workplace, women often have to prove themselves and earn their spot at the table, so increasing responsibility is often welcomed by them. Guys on the other hand often have a paved path to powerful positions, so they may end up with responsibilities which outstrip their capabilities, or at least that make them really tired of responsibility. So sometimes this manifests as C-level executives who just want to be free of decisions for a while and let someone else be in control for a bit, leading to wanting to be more submissive in relationships.

    Increasing self-confidence and less concern about what others think - as people mature, they care less about what others think, so women don’t have to be so careful to appear meek and submissive and men can become more comfortable not being always alpha. For kinky men, this might mean that they start to feel more free to share that they don’t always want control and in fact may want or need to not be in control sometimes, which is too much of a hurdle for many young men to clear. Also, I should point out that kinky men might still be very aggressive in business, sports, with other guys, and so on, and at the same time become more submissive in the bedroom.

    Life experiences - Women become frustrated with men who don’t respect them, speak down to them, mistreat them, and don’t carry their fair share of the load. Seeing that being quiet and submissive didn’t work, they might become more willing to seize the reins. And at least some men (like me) see that as hard as we might try to change and improve, we still fail to achieve the goals we make and become the people we wish to be, so we need to find someone who can help us get there.

    -ZM

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    1. Hi ZM. A lot of good stuff in here.

      "Other than from this site, I don’t know of any other men who are recipients of DD (though I have known a few that I would not be surprised if they were)." Oddly, I don't have any close friends or acquaintances who I suspect might be DD recipients, with maybe one exception. There was a woman in my office who was quite a bit younger than me but had a fairly dominant personality. Observing her interactions with her husband at a holiday party, I detected a pretty strong D/s vibe between them, including things like her basically ordering him to fetch drinks for her. But, they were at best very casual acquaintances, and among those I am closer to, I've never caught a real whiff of that dynamic. Though, I honestly think that most people who know me would be shocked that I not only let myself be spanked "for real" but actually sought it out.

      I totally agree with your descriptions in the paragraph about increasing responsibility, especially about the authority that women gain through motherhood. I suspect in many marriages, the men may be the bigger earner and largely in charge of finances, but the women run pretty much everything else. And, once they have become largely responsible for disciplining kids, is it that big a stretch to start disciplining an unruly husband?

      I think that my wife definitely has taken more to the disciplinary role as her confidence in other parts of her life increased, and perhaps the incident with the window also reflects less concern with what others think as she gets older and more independent. I'm not sure that aspect played a role in me wanting DD, though I definitely care less now about others finding out that I did when we first started.

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    2. ZM, the factors you describe ring true to me, especially for those who were not hard-driven to kinky dominance or submission from a young age. Though it was much more difficult to accept my kink at a young age, and for the reasons you describe, I think I would have overcome the societal pressures to always "be the man," if the opportunity had been there. These factors seem to characterize my generation, but certainly have not died out completely. I think as young women today have been raised more and more like boys, or with similar expectations for achievement, there is less reluctance to lead in personal relationships. I never experienced the workplace issues around responsibility, but I can understand them. Many women in positions of power at work are now wanting to be more submissive at home.

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    3. Hi Dan,
      "Oddly, I don't have any close friends or acquaintances who I suspect might be DD recipients, with maybe one exception....among those I am closer to, I've never caught a real whiff of that dynamic. Though, I honestly think that most people who know me would be shocked that I not only let myself be spanked "for real" but actually sought it out."

      I like the way that you described this, because I think that everyone around me would be similarly surprised that I am subject to my wife's discipline and at my own request at that. So when looking at others, it is really hard to tell who may or may not be, because I don't think that there is necessarily a "type," and instead you just have to look at the part of the dynamic between partners that you see (since again, who knows what the dynamic is when nobody else is around).

      The one I described earlier, I have no reason to actually think that they might use DD. However, I feel pretty comfortable calling their relationship an FLR, simply because it is super clear that she runs things in their relationship. Not only around the house, which is probably true in many couples, but in every part of life. She says "jump" and he says "how high?" Probably they don't use DD, mostly since I think it is not all that common, and also because I know that she is very much against spanking children, though I am not sure how feelings about that might affect openness to DD. But the certainly COULD use DD, and if they did, she would not really be any more in charge than she already is.

      I was thinking that they were the only ones, but then I remembered an obscure reference made years ago. This was my ex-wife's female cousin, who has a LOT of attitude, and her husband at the time (now ex, I think), who moved for a while to the town we were living in. Anyway, he was retired out of the military and in his 40's and had taken up a trade. He was a pretty big, muscular tough guy (like me minus much of the fat) and was very loud and funny. Anyway, looking at them it would never cross my mind that they might be into DD, but I remember once he said (aloud, in front of his wife, me, and my ex-wife) that he had to be careful or he might be spanked, and then went on to say that "and I am not talking about the find kind of spanking; there are the spankings that are fun and then there are spankings that you don't want to get." Of course, I laughed, but I remember now that I thought about it quite a bit for some time after wondering if he was just joking around - as he did with most everything - of if there was some truth to what he was saying and if he might, in fact, have been subject to DD.

      So, there is no way of knowing ever, but I sure wish that I could know!

      "once they have become largely responsible for disciplining kids, is it that big a stretch to start disciplining an unruly husband?" - I agree completely. And in fact, I do think that I kind of like this maternal aspect. Occasionally I have seen a caption or something that will be kind of "you saw how I spank our children to tears, and you will be crying just as hard" and that always kind of resonates with me.

      -ZM

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    4. Hi Brett,
      "I think as young women today have been raised more and more like boys, or with similar expectations for achievement, there is less reluctance to lead in personal relationships." I am not quite as convinced that we are there yet for the similar expectations for young women and men, but it is entirely possible that I am jaded by where I currently live, which is still much more traditional. I work with, and am quite close to, a number of young women, and while they seem quite confident in many aspects of life, I just can't picture them dominating their partner in any real way (i.e. other than BDSM fantasy play), though I of course have no way of knowing. But maybe in the USA, this would be less of a stretch? I haven't lived there for quite a while now, considering how fast things are changing!

      -ZM

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    5. Hi ZM: "Probably they don't use DD, mostly since I think it is not all that common, and also because I know that she is very much against spanking children, though I am not sure how feelings about that might affect openness to DD." I too wonder who closely those two things (corporal punishment for minors vs. for adults) correlate. It seems to be a thing on DD blogs to have a disclaimer proclaiming being against spanking children. I don't have strong feelings about it either way. I was spanked as a child, though not often. It kind of permeated the entire community I grew up. I guess you could say it was very prevalent and most of us turned out OK but, on the other hand, it was an area of the country that has some pretty backwards views and now seems to be replete with Covid deniers and conspiracy theorists, so in some ways I really can't say that most of the people there did, in fact, turn out OK. I personally feel like there is a very big gap between spanking and abuse and that some kids really could use a good spanking when other things don't get their attention and make them behave, but I'm also not sure that even if I were against spanking minors that the same would be true of my openness to it with adults.

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  6. Several topics in this post. First, I agree with Brett and others that erotic spankings and disciplinary spankings can easily and clearly coexist within a relationship. We play numerous games (Scrabble, Backgammon, pool, ping pong, etc.) for swats. Those always end up with marvelous sex!

    Graham

    Second, we do "switch" some as noted above, but I can't recall the last time I actually spanked her for discipline.

    Third, the desire for a "witness" or "observer" be it intentional or by "accident" is pretty common. Of course, one shouldn't subject innocent parties to something they don't want to be part of.

    Regarding the latter, I've been spanked a couple times in hotel rooms that were certainly not sound proof. Once decades ago, a girlfriend got carried away in a B&B and gave me a really good padding soon after we awoke. When we descended to breakfast, everyone in the dining room gave us a standing applause! Absolute truth. Of course, they all knew it was my birthday, so most if not all of them assumed it was a totally playful one-off.

    Graham

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    1. "Of course, one shouldn't subject innocent parties to something they don't want to be part of." Always a good thing to keep in mind.

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  7. It's hard for me to reconcile being spanked with the windows open, which seems bold and transparent, and being spanked in view of our real flesh-and-blood neighbors, which seems awkward and likely to lead to our favorite ones moving away sooner. (Maybe we could spank in front of the windows facing the least liked neighbors to that end.)

    Making a neutral third party aware would probably be our direction. I would like to have a call once a month with another spanking couple far enough away that we could candidly discuss our lives. Perhaps just a call between the women where the husbands listen and weigh in as asked.

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    1. Hi MW,
      I agree that being spanked in view of neighbors might be quite unwelcome by them. And even worse than that would be for someone to hear the spanking going on without seeing, since they might well think that there was some sort of domestic abuse going on, particularly if it wasn't clear which partner was being spanked. I assume - but of course don't know - that Anne probably thought it pretty unlikely that anyone would actually witness the spanking, and instead was trying to make a point with Dan; no matter how small the actual risk is, the perceived risk could be a whole lot higher to the one being spanked.

      I think that because of the possibility of being completely misunderstood, if we ever do actually do anything less privately, it would be telling someone that we know and trust about it. Then, after there has been some open discussion about it, at least by my wife if not by both of us, and after knowing how they feel about it, I guess there is a remote possibility of someone actually witnessing a spanking. But I just don't see that happening without there being discussion and understanding beforehand.

      The one possible exception I could see to this would be if my wife ever did some punishment outdoors, like in the countryside. Then, I could see her being angry and choosing to unleash on my bottom, and even if someone came along, they would pretty well guess what happened, and would see that I am clearly much bigger than my wife so obviously not acting under too much duress.

      -ZM

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    2. You are correct in saying there's still a chance even in a country setting of being exposed and embarrassed. The smoking incident with my wife I mentioned proves as much. Even putting that aside, living in the country doesn't negate the fact that phones exist. My wife certainly knows how to utilize them in order for me to confess embarrassing things to my friends as a 40 year old, grown man. When we first met and she told me about all this flr stuff, I never thought the day would come where I'd actually prefer being spanked instead of grounded. If she gave me the choice, I'd pick the former without thinking twice because of that aspect of it alone. Unfortunately, she doesn't and decides herself which it will be (and for the really major stuff, both happen).

      Much as it sucks, it's preferable to being a piece of crap that might even be in jail now were it not for her seeing something more in me and helping to bring that to the light. Why she ever fell in love with someone like me (The same love I have for her) is beyond my understanding, but I am truly grateful for it and her. Even at the most challenging times.

      - Trent

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    3. ZM, good thoughts about the optics as opposed to just the sounds and their potential to be misunderstood. Also, I want to be clear that I didn’t mean Anne did the wrong thing for Dan, and I’m sure I’m not considering how we could become more perceptive about the right time to do such things over the years.

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    4. ZM: "And even worse than that would be for someone to hear the spanking going on without seeing, since they might well think that there was some sort of domestic abuse going on, particularly if it wasn't clear which partner was being spanked." See my comment above. Though, given the amount of groaning and yelping I do, I don't think anyone who overheard one of ours would be confused about who was getting spanked.

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  9. This may more be a question for those whose wives aren’t calling all the shots, yet, anyway. When you want a disciplinary spanking or a very hard spanking from your wife, how do you ask for it, if you do? In-person, text message, a code phrase, proactively putting out an instrument? Do you ask differently based on why you want it? For example, Tomy once advised to simply say if you’d like a spanking for mental well-being. Would you ask for that differently than if you broke an accountability rule? How about if you simply were feeling an inexplicable desire? I’ve framed this as asking the husbands but I would also like to hear from wives how their husbands ask them.

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    1. Hi MW,
      For me this is an easy one. I basically never ask for a spanking. While I love the thought of her being in control and disciplining me, and am even quite turned on by the whole thing at all times except the moment a spanking is imminent or happening, I do not like actually getting spankings and very much wish to avoid that very thing which I so want and need.

      If she asked me to self-report I of course would, but she has never wanted this. Also if she asks me about anything, I am always completely honest. But I never ask for spankings.

      -ZM

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  10. Dan, I have often used the 'training the dog' analogy with my wife so I did chuckle at the reference above! I have used it to emphasize the very strong need / benefits of consistency, clarity and simplicity of rules and direction. Also the need for a short lease in training, the tug of wills that takes place but mainly the benefits of consistency.

    The topic of changing as we get older is interesting - in my case I don't think that I would have had the confidence to open up about my spanking fetish and the role that it could ideally play in a relationship when I was younger. It was always there and I remember trying to explain to a previous girlfriend but she did not understand and I was unable to fully explain and so it never came up again. And it was many years into my lifelong relationship before I raised the topic and it was fine, accepted without any negative feedback. But I have had to explain how often, how hard, buy the implements before it became an embedded part of our relationship, a very useful control, a way of rebalancing for my sarcasm, occasional rudeness or moods. And we both know when it is due and what action is needed and although it hurts, a lot, I have never been resentful and only once resisted. We talked and I know if I ever resist again that it will end that part of our relationship and neither of us want that.

    And on a related topic I am interested in how other couples talk about discipline. Does it only get talked about when discipline is happening, about to happen or when some misbehavior triggers a warning or promise? Or does it become woven into the everyday exchanges that long term couples engage in? For us it feels like somewhere in between - the possibility of discipline may come up as a tease or as a warning but we don't really discuss it much outside the immediate before, during and immediately after.

    I sometimes feel that a more regular discussion would be useful and my way around that is to write her journals, generally at least weekly, which I suppose are love letters with a strong DD flavor. TB

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    1. Hi TB,
      I know you were writing to Dan, but I keep jumping into every conversation simply because it seems like Dan is out having lots of fun (at least I hope he is!) and I am wanting to keep conversation going because I enjoy it. I hope that is ok.

      What you said about your lack of confidence to introduce DD at a young age largely parallels my own with my first wife. I explained it (kinda sorta) but she just didn't get it, because I was just unable to talk normally and openly about it.

      "But I have had to explain how often, how hard, buy the implements before it became an embedded part of our relationship, a very useful control, a way of rebalancing for my sarcasm, occasional rudeness or moods." This sounds exactly like how it has went for us, and we are still on the journey.

      We do talk about DD quite frequently, but it is usually her who brings it up and usually in a teasing manner. However, she is also quite kinky (as am I), so we talk very often about kinky things in general, so DD just fits into that here and there.

      It was interesting that you mentioned the dog training analogy, since I had completely forgotten that part of Dan's post this week. I too think that consistency is a key factor in DD.

      Regarding what Dan said about dog training, the parallels are quite perfect.
      - Preventing the bad behavior before it happens is often more effective than punishing it after-the-fact. For me this is particularly true with attitude, since by the time a bad attitude has been allowed to blossom, I usually don't recognize just how bad my attitude is and am not all that excited about correcting it.

      - Discipline is hard, especially for small things. When my wife punishes me for something small, the punishment still has to be pretty severe or it won't register as punishment and won't be effective. That can seem very unfair. But much, much more harsh are the effects of unchecked bad behavior and attitudes: fights, unhappiness, despair, divorce, failure to achieve life goals, etc. When you think about it this way, there really aren't any "little things" since everything can add up to have far-reaching consequences. Discipline is always hard at the time, but it is always worth it in the end.

      - Boundaries bring freedom. There is nothing more scary than navigating life without boundaries. It is like driving on ice on a twisty mountain road with steep dropoffs and no guardrails. Sometimes boundaries can be comforting.

      - Consistency brings results. This applies whether discipline is applied consistently or ignored rather consistently.

      Anyway, great analogy, and I think it perfectly applies to DD.

      -ZM

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    2. Hi TB. I'm a little surprised you are the only one who thought the dog training analogy was worth commenting on. I thought it was pretty spot on!

      For me, getting older didn't have anything to do with voicing my interest in DD, because I didn't know it existed when I was younger, and once I discovered it I told her about it within a few days. Now, what I have no way of knowing is whether, had I discovered it in my 20s or early 30s, I would have been more reticent about bringing it up, or whether I even would have had the same interest in it at an earlier stage of life.

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    3. ZM: Glad you too liked the dog analogy. Should have read your comment before responding to TB.

      "Boundaries bring freedom. There is nothing more scary than navigating life without boundaries. It is like driving on ice on a twisty mountain road with steep dropoffs and no guardrails. Sometimes boundaries can be comforting." I totally agree!

      Yes, I have been having fun and am off to have some more this weekend and may once again not have time to post. We'll see. In the meantime, thanks for keeping the conversation going.

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    4. TB, discussions occur almost randomly for us. There’s no good time for discussions so we are squeezing them into the 30 calm minutes we have before tiredness wins for the night. So DD has to compete with many other topics and activities, including spanking itself if it’s happening, and we don’t really talk openly yet in the time surrounding spanking sessions.

      Writing to each other would probably be better than trying to talk. Both of us would express ourselves better that way. It could also make discipline easier to order for her since she really struggles to suggest it out loud. We’d have to use some sort of secure and private electronic correspondence since anything paper would inevitably be discovered by our children.

      So much to learn.

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    5. I have not really used written communication with my wife, other than once in the beginning I wrote down my thoughts when I actually introduced DD to her, I had already told her about spanking, but really hadn't made clear how the whole arrangement might work. Even then, I didn't send her what I wrote, but just read it to her because I wanted to make sure that the concept was fully explained. I knew that since I tend to get nervous when talking about anything spanking related (and I still do even after we have been doing it over 5 years), I was likely to go off on a tangent or leave big parts of it out.

      If I recall correctly, I think that Dan uses or at least used a journal as a form of communication? It may have not been Dan, but I remember someone was talking about that. Also, I know that Dan and his wife used some sort of electronic communication before. I think this could be compelling especially in "sentencing," particularly in those cases where there is not much chance to openly talk about it. So wife sees behavior, sends message, and now it is written so it needs to happen. Ideally there would be some sort of system that would keep track of these things.

      I looked up the link to a discussion we had last year about this:
      https://disciplinedhubbies.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-club-meeting-328-reporting.html

      Anyway, whatever communication you come up with, more communication is always a good thing!

      -ZM

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    6. "If I recall correctly, I think that Dan uses or at least used a journal as a form of communication?" I did/do, in electronic form, though my use of it got very sporadic over the last few months. I gravitate naturally to paper journals -- I just like their look and feel. But, the downsides are they are (a) not secure from prying eyes; (b) are not always nearby and readily available for spontaneous entries; and (c) are not convenient to hand back and forth. So, I started using an Apple Pages word processing document as an electronic version. While it doesn't do as much for me aesthetically as a paper journal (a) it is password protected, so it is secure; (b) my Pages documents synch across multiple devices, and I almost always have one of my devices with me; and (c) I can send it to her by text or email.

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    7. I use MS OneNote and I share a password protected journal which she can access on any device. It is very much a one sided journal, she occasionally responds on the journal but mostly in person. I write in in most weeks and get reprimanded if I don't. This is fine by me - as somebody pointed out (o maybe a number of people have) the male in a DD relationship seems generally more committed, more interested in exploring what it means and highlighting different aspects whereas the female (and I am running a severe risk of generalizing) seems to either 'go along' with her man's needs or see it in a purely practical was of managing the household and it's occupants!

      Either way I find the journal writing has been very helpful in not only communicating how I feel, what works, etc but also as a way of more formally expressing my gratitude and other feeling which can often get lost in the day to day conversational exchanges. She says she very much enjoys seeing what I am thinking about, what I am feeling and insists that I continue the practice... TB

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  11. I am a good example of someone who has evolved from spanker at 16 to spankee at 58 but I would, despite having only smacked one female bottom in the last 5 years, still class myself as a Switch. Cheers Good Life Mickey

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