Sunday, April 18, 2021

Meeting 373 - Source of Change and the Necessity of Buy-In

“A disciplined person is one who follows the will of the one who gives the orders.” - Vince Lombardi

 

Hello all.  Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline relationships, mainly of the Female/male variety.  I hope you had a good week. 

 

Ours was pretty uneventful.  We are kind of stuck between seasons, and every time I think it’s time to switch gears to focus on springtime and getting prepared for summer, we get hit with another round of winter.

 

 

I feel kind of the same about the pandemic lockdown - stuck emotionally and energetically between one season and another. Our area of the country has pretty high vaccination rates and our infection rate is holding at a pretty manageable level. People are getting a little more adventurous, with more people going to restaurants, exploring the outdoors without as much timidity, and starting to go back to the office.  That all seems mostly good, though my inner-introvert isn’t quite ready to go back to “normal.”

 

 


I suspect others are making more of the reopening than I am, based on the relatively small level of participation in last week’s topic. But, while there were not a large number of comments, it was a good discussion and gave me at least one idea for a follow-up. 

 

We all seem to agree that Domestic Discipline is needed for some issues and not others, and that it seems to work better for some issues and not so well for others. It also is clear that our respective “goals” for Domestic Discipline come from different sources. In some cases, we men ask for help dealing with a particular issue. In other cases, our wives address those issues that they determine are the most important or that have the most impact on them.   

 

 

Sometimes, there is “buy-in” upfront, and sometimes it develops over time.  The range of sources of the goals and degree of “buy-in” is demonstrated by these quotes from last week, plus one from a couple of weeks ago:

 

ZM: We compiled a list of things that need improvement in order for us to have a structured, organized life, without all the chaos that was so much a part of my life until recently.

 

Belle: Jimmy hasn't asked me to use DD to enforce any self-improvent goals and I kind of doubt he will. It has all been my goals for him, things he really doesn't want to do but is ok when I "make" him with the threat of the paddle. It is interesting for me to hear you guys talk about DD help to lose weight and other goals you have set for yourself. Jimmy really has no problem with self-discipline in those areas. It's the things I want him to change where he needs external accountability. Fascinating.

 

Alan: But “the things I want him to change” really nails the dynamic for me. I really love it when a woman in an intimate relationship (that part of it is important) sets her goals and expectations backed up by real consequences.

 

ZM (from a couple of weeks ago): "And Alan, I agree that buy-in tied to accountability is what brings real change. Though as I mentioned a few weeks ago, sometimes my wife is able to use the strong communication offered by spanking to get through to me and to ultimately cause buy-in. I may or may not agree with her when she decides to spank me, but inevitably my perspective swings around during punishment and by the end, I agree that she was in the right. So, buy-in is needed, but she can also help to cause that buy-in, since we always agree on the underlying principles."

 

 

Alan’s comments from this week and a couple of weeks ago seem to indicate a somewhat contradictory dichotomy between what works best and what most turns us on.  On the one hand, positive change is most likely when both parties buy in to changing the behavior.  On the other hand, a lot of the erotic power of DD seems to extend from the woman “setting her goals and expectations backed up by real consequences.”  ZM’s comment also shows that buy-in isn’t necessarily binary. Sometimes, she wants to effect some change and, while he may not agree in the  moment when she orders it, at some point he comes around.

 

 

My question following up on all this is, when you look back at those behaviors that you have tried to use DD to establish or to root out, do you see any patterns regarding who was focused on that particular issue and the degree of buy-in involved?  Did he tend to respond best when the issue was most important to her?  To him? To both?  Did the degree of up-front buy-in really matter with respect to whether the behavior actually changed?  Have there been any instances in which an issue was important to her but not necessarily to him, but that her determination was such that the change was effected despite his lack of contemporaneous buy-in?

 

I hope you all have a good week. 

55 comments:

  1. An interesdting topic for many I would suppose and I am looking forward to the responses for others. Here, looking back to the beginning of our 24/7, DD, a lot of the behavioral rules were about the same as my former relationship. Good behavior is good behavior. I had no or very few major issues she wanted to correct. Most of the items I had to agree to 'buy into had to do with house rules. It was her home I was moving into. We both made the list of infractions, but her input was mostly about her home. My adaption to those rules was the cause of many spankings in the early stages of our relationship. Everyone here is aware of the scenario which occurred on my move in. To set the tone and begin our DD household, I was stripped and spanked within seconds of bringing in the last of my belongings. Again looking back, she kicked off our relationship with her authority and now, I am very happy she is in full control.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I've never really had the experience of moving into someone else's home. I can see how that would be a context full of opportunities for rules and buy-in issues to arise.

      Delete
    2. Move-in has been more than complicated for us. I moved into his home when we married and for a decade followed his house rules as the "little woman." Then I left hin to find myself. Then I moved back in as nonsexual "roommates," though we were still married. We battled about house rules such as quiet time and chores and cleanliness and even who had what shelf of the refrigerator! Our early DD focus was on respect, which began to carryover to household issues where he was disrespecting me. Now we are fully reunited and I am exerting more authority about house rules, backed up by DD. We own the house together, but it really used to be his and now is becoming more mine as our power exchange continues.

      Delete
  2. All of the issues that I have spanked Jimmy for are my issues, but his upfront buy-in has made a big difference in the effectiveness. Our primary issue is respect for women, and it was Jimmy who suggested he be paddled when I felt he had been disrespectful. It has been a learning curve as I teach about the things he says and does that disrespect women, but his buy-in has been excellent. I only have to spank him for a specific behavior once or twice and he curtails it! The down side is that he hasn't learned how to recognize acts of disrespect on his own, so I have to point them out individually and punish them individually.

    His lack of buy-in is evident around the house. I thought I had cured him of leaving his underwear on the bathroom floor, but we recently had to have a rather long session of him over the arm of the couch to address that issue once again. I bet I have spanked him a dozen times for it! He also is quite forgetful about the chores he has agreed to do.

    I guess it's good news that he is on board with the major issue (respect) that caused such a rift in our marriage. I certainly don't get as upset about the little things, even though I paddle him just as hard for them.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Belle. Yes, it is good--and maybe a little atypical?--if you succeeded in tackling the major issue, even if more minor ones have proven harder to eradicate.

      Delete
    2. All about buy-in. He bought in to the respect issue because he knew it was the key to reunification and because he suggested DD for it. I am still "convincing" him that he needs to buy in to these lesser issues for which the bath brush is my idea. Just as your topic suggests.

      Delete
  3. Dan wrote: “Alan’s comments …seem to indicate a somewhat contradictory dichotomy between what works best and what most turns us on. …, positive change is most likely when both parties buy in to changing the behavior… (But), a lot of the erotic power of DD seems to extend from the woman “setting her goals and expectations backed up by real consequences”
    I hope to answer your other interesting questions later but wanted to respond to this issue now which I think points to an apparent paradox rather than a real contradiction. There is no question that a mutual buy in improves the probability the discipline will bring about positive change. However the buy in –change process can also be highly erotic, evoking feelings of obedience and acceptance of her authority. And it’s also true that female initiated goals and expectations without any buy in is also highly erotic, which may be what ZM was alluding to when talking about discipline bringing about that buy in even if it’s not there before the new rule or expectation is imposed. In my experience the mutual buy in works best with major behavior change often deep rooted and resistant to change. Whereas unilateral female imposed authority works best for relatively minor behaviors (like messiness around the house, getting routine chores done or other day to day issues. The bigger point is that both can work to change behavior and both can be erotic. I admit though that my knees can actually get wobbly when my wife goes into that quiet, slow, confident command mode. So female initiated use of authority is probably the apex of DD eroticism. I love it
    Alan

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That dichotomy probably is true for us as well. When we haven't been on the same page with respect to some major behavior change, her assertion of authority has, in fact, resulted in resistance. However, when she has initiated spankings for things like chores, the assertion of authority was sexy and there was no real resentment around the punishment.

      Delete
    2. I am with Alan on this one. For major issues, Jimmy's buy-in is necessary for change to occur. For minor issues, the bath brush and I can impose my will without his buy-in, though it does seem that the bottom to brain connection is rather inconsistent and repeat lessons are necessary.

      Delete
  4. Alan,
    What you have described is exactly what I have experienced. Jimmy totally buys into treating me respectfully because he wants us together, so his response to discipline has been excellent. However, with messiness and chores where I am imposing my authority in new realms to which he has only reluctantly agreed, his response has been disappointing. He wants sex after both, but he seems even more aroused when I have paddled him for some minor infraction. So you are explaining that it is my unilateral authority that arouses him so, even though he isn't very obedient about these things? Very interesting.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Belle,
      “…it is my unilateral authority that arouses him so, even though he isn't very obedient about these things”

      I think that just about nails it. When she goes into that mode (you are in trouble) and just completely takes charge, the eroticism is off the charts. I don’t think I am less obedient after that kind of discipline but I am much hornier. I will admit I probably need more reinforcement on those things that begin as her own agenda. My former girlfriend used to talk about the “bum-brain connection” and she really did try to engage my brain through my bum.
      Alan.


      Delete
  5. "Did he tend to respond best when the issue was most important to her? To him? To both? "
    My husband responded more often when the issue was important to me, though we both agreed he needed to be controlled and directed to a greater degree on some issues. Financial control was an area my husband really wanted to work on. I touched on it last time I commented. I never had an issue with him purchasing something like a horse or a boat. The problem was, and he agrees, that it was mostly whim driven and at times he couldn't afford such purchases or they were impractical at the times he wanted them. We struggled in the beginning and my husband wanted everything he saw. Sometimes he wanted to hear "no" from me for kinky reasons. I know him very well. When he really began to have significant hair loss he talked about purchasing an expensive hair system. He could have afforded it. He eventually decided to shave his head, but wanted me to say "no" about spending so much money. He admitted it to me later. By the way, he looks fantastic and younger. He really didn't want it in the end. he wanted Mean Carol to say "no!" He clearly responds to what I want however. This makes him happy.
    Carol H.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I can understand the dynamic of wanting a Mean Wife who can and will use the word "no."

      Delete
    2. Jimmy is still a bit shocked when I tell him no (sinxe I seldom did for many years). The static begins until I ask him if the bath brush needs to help settle the issue.

      Delete
    3. The downside of saying no is I'm probably less likely to even bring some things up in advance of doing them, on the premise that it's generally "better to say you're sorry than to ask permission," particularly if you've learned permission may be denied.

      Delete
  6. The issue has to be important to both of us. So far everything has been proposed by me and modified by her to become a compromise on reasonable and easy enough to monitor. Effectiveness seems to come from choosing a series of moderately challenging goals that don't require finding new time in the day.

    In a recent discussion I did see a glimmer of a scenario in which she makes proposals, There was a behavioral issue of mine that kind of put a light in her eye when we discussed me no longer doing it, especially when I proposed her calling me out on the behavior as she noticed it. I'm sure her enthusiasm would help me make a more difficult change.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We have had similar conversations about the prospect of her "calling me out" on particular behavior. In fact, she kind of did so just last night.

      Delete
    2. It was pretty minor, but a change is a change. I said something about her habit of not getting around to something she had said she was going to do, and she responded, "Are you criticizing me? That sure sounds like criticism." We had talked over the weekend about her taking a tougher line on disrespect, and she seems to be following up on that.

      Delete
    3. Dan, that's good to hear. You're further along with those conversations than we were, since we just had that one talk about it. She backed off when I suggested she could bring up the issue as she sees it without checking with me on the definition of it. She wasn't upset by the suggestion, though.

      I bet we'll have to have several more discussions before her frustration level has grown to where she just says, "sure!"

      The specific issue is my pride keeping me from saying or doing something I should be doing. Our quantified approach can't handle that. Our most recent conversation helped break the ice on that issue because I was nervous about bringing up the accountability I wanted, and didn't explain myself well, but jumped in anyway.

      Delete
    4. MW, I find that we can talk and talk about an issue, and after weeks or months of seeing no change, all of a sudden it's like a lightbulb goes off and she suddenly goes in a more "take charge" direction.

      We also had a very "quantified" approach when we first started, and while we moved out of that phase a long time ago, I still think it's a beneficial approach for many when they are just starting out. It may feel artificial, but it builds confidence over time.

      Delete
  7. As long as it makes reasonable sense as an issue that requires punishment, the idea is much more erotic when she decides for herself what is needed and why. The idea of her disciplining to help me achieve my own goals or what I’ve already “bought into” is less exciting but still welcomed — that to me is more like self-discipline and a different psychological experience. If she can bend me to her will, show me the error of my ways, then that would be very powerful. Behavior modification is probable if I feel some real shame and guilt, and the eroticism comes from her being in control of that situation.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "If she can bend me to her will, show me the error of my ways, then that would be very powerful." Yep, I totally get this.

      Delete
    2. I think Jimmy finds me bending him to my will both powerful and erotic, but he often repeats the behavior. Could he subconsciously want to experience my power again? Or are old habits just dying hard? Or some of both? I don't know. He is very reticent when it comes to discussing his DD motivations.

      Delete
    3. The way I see it, in order to be bent to her will, or have her “teach me a lesson” it would require that my behavior or attitude is actually corrected. If I repeat what she’s trying to correct, that would demonstrate an undermining of her power and diminish the eroticism. I can see where a particular form of misbehavior might carelessly or unintentionally occur a second time, or maybe a few times over a long period of time, but unless there is some immediate authentic change to demonstrate that her control is real, it’s only the appearance of influence and power. If I’m needing another punishment for the same repeat offense, it would really be because she hasn’t convinced me of anything. At this point, there's a meeting of minds that has to happen that goes beyond punishment and power exchange.

      Delete
    4. Belle, without knowing Jimmy, it's hard to say. I do think some old habits die hard and slow. Speaking only for me personally, I truly don't think I ever engage in bad behavior for the purpose of giving her the opportunity to display power or authority. More often, it's either something I do on impulse, like saying something snotty or disrespectful before I catch myself, or "situational amnesia" where I pretty much forget that the activity could get me spanked. I've talked about the fact that after I have one or two beers, I completely forget any danger in having a third. People can choose to believe it or not, but that's the way it works for me -- I just totally forget about consequences in that context. Then there are isolated acts of just not paying attention. I've managed to accomplish quite a bit in my life, despite having an incredibly short attention span. I may genuinely intend to do something like clean a rice cooker, but five minutes into cleaning the kitchen after dinner my mind is off onto some other activity, and I just don't think about completing the task at hand. I really am pretty close to having adult ADD.

      Delete
    5. Belle wrote: “Could he subconsciously want to experience my power again? Or are old habits just dying hard?”

      This issue, broadly considered, is really recidivism and why it occurs in DD. We have discussed it before from several angles. Both Dan and Brett touch on many of the causes. In our experience there is no single cause for it. There was one poster on here a while back who said she dealt with it by escalating the punishment (doubling) until the behavior was extinguished with periodic follow-up’s (every few years, as I recall). I think she claimed it never took more than three escalations. We have not tried that but found that consistent follow-up and concentration on a limited number of behaviors does work. It’s also helpful to remember that the effects of spanking are cumulative and rarely (never really) has a single spanking ever shut down a behavior she wanted to change. Expectations matter here also. In our DD there have been two or three behaviors she wanted to eradicate (and I bought in totally) She also is comfortable with dealing with other issues from time to time that have been reduced but not eradicated ( Holiday misbehavior is the best example of that). And she has gradually expanded her authority over behaviors that were originally “not spankable” but are now. Spanking in DD can move mountains but not every mountain and you learn that as you go along
      Alan

      Delete
    6. The different approaches to DD are fascinating to me. A fairly obvious one is where the wife (disciplinarian) simply escalates the punishment until the fear of it becomes strong enough to compel a change of behavior. That would work on some level for me under non-consensual conditions, and despite any antipathy I have about it, the idea is pretty erotic. However, the reality of a consensual relationship for me wouldn’t work like that. There is a limit to how far escalation could go before I decided to opt out of the arrangement. The reality is that a spanking is an important element of her authority and power, however, the excitement of shame and humility comes from her being able to convince me that she’s right, I’m wrong, that I deserved the punishment and change is warranted -- and that compels me to make an all out effort to correct the problem. If for some reason, I’m still unable to meet her demand, then I’m not sure how that gets fixed or at least improved. Simple bullying wouldn’t work.

      Delete
    7. These are all very helpful comments. I think Jimmy is like Dan - impulsive and situational amnesia plus hard habits to break. I don't think he is intentionally misbehaving. The thing is, he is embarrassed to talk about DD, whereas I want to. But maybe it's easier for the spanker because I feel no embarrassment. He just wants me to impose the sentence and carry it out and not discuss it before or after. He is responsive to my questions during, but he really has no choice about that with his bottom in the air.

      Delete
    8. Hi Belle
      You wrote; the thing is,” he is embarrassed to talk about DD, whereas I want to. But maybe it's easier for the spanker because I feel no embarrassment. He just wants me to impose the sentence and carry it out and not discuss it before or after”.
      This seems like some behavior I read about from males but it’s not my personal experience. We did informal debriefs after major spankings from very early and she made me talk about it and talk about all kinds of things from the effectiveness of the spanking to my feelings about it and also her thoughts and feelings and future expectations. They were designed as a kind of “after action “report and a road map forward. But we both have learned a lot about each other and that has led to an intimacy that really transcends erotic intimacy. Like Jimmy during a spanking the words do come out with me but they are mostly confessional, expressing regret or just surrendering to her. But the de-briefs are different. An imminent paddle is a male truth teller but it also inhibits really spontaneous sharing. Jimmy sounds guarded about his feeling now and he probably doesn’t understand some of them very well. You may want to work on getting him to talk and free up some of those thoughts he does have but AFTER the spankings (the next day is good). It will be well worth the effort.
      Alan

      Delete
    9. Belle, I would be hugely embarrassed to talk about DD or about punishments before or after, and I can’t see myself bringing up the subject at any time. However, if she didn’t talk about it, I believe it would leave me with an empty feeling and of something left unresolved. It seems the one in charge should insist on discussing both specific issues and evaluating discipline in general. I see her demand that I be responsive, and open and honest about things, as a part of the existing power dynamic that pushes or pulls me into uncomfortable positions I would otherwise avoid. I think feelings forced out into the open can possibly be damaging but more likely enlightening and therapeutic. It can also strengthen bonds between partners.

      Delete
  8. This is Liz. Until the past few days I would say that the response to this topic was quite simple for us: Art has had total buy-in for the issue of addressing his arrogance with DD, and it has been working well.
    However, over the past several weeks, as I have related here, we have been discussing how I can better help him with arrogance at work when I don't really know what is going on there other than through his self-reporting. While I do believe he is very honest with me, he very obviously has a blind spot when it comes to his sarcasm and arrogance, and I know from some of the incidents at home that he has a tendency to minimize his behavior.
    From asking him questions while paddling him the last few weeks, I learned that some recent incidents at work were worse than he initially reported. I have come to learn that paddle swats tend to help get a more complete answer to my questions.
    So I recently decided that we needed some additional means to see how things are going at his job. First I asked him to bring home a copy of his latest evaluation, which occurred in December. He responded that the evaluations are kept in the employee's personnel folder and copies are not given to the employee. Art told me what the evaluation said, and then made a rather snotty comment about how I shouldn't need to see it since he had already told me what was on it.
    Then we began discussing the possibility of me having a conversation with one of the administrative assistants in the office who we know a bit socially, and me asking her about Art's behavior on the job. Art said he was completely fine with that as long as I didn't discuss the use of DD. But then he backed off and said that he did not think I should meet with her and that I would be "invading his territory" by discussing his work performance with one of his co-workers.
    This led to a fairly serious disagreement which was settled yesterday morning with him bent over the desk for our regular Monday morning DD session. I asked him a number of pointed questions. I asked him to confirm that he had originally asked me to use DD to help curb his arrogance both at home and at work. He agreed that he had requested that assistance. I then asked him whether he agreed that his arrogance at work had a direct effect on our family, since it has led to him being passed over for promotion. At first he tried to argue that the effect was indirect at best, but as the paddling continued he agreed to see it my way.
    I then told him that when he got to work that day he was going to ask his supervisor for a copy of his latest evaluation. He said he did not want to do that and wondered what he would tell his supervisor as to why he needed it. I replied that I did not care what he told his supervisor as long as he came home with the evaluation, and once again the paddle helped him see that my request was the correct course of action.
    I then told him that we would review the evaluation that night (last night), and depending on what it said I would decide whether I needed to make contact with the co-worker to find out more. He was against this course of action but eventually (as the paddling and my lecture and questioning continued) agreed that it was a fair approach.
    Liz

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Last night he brought home the evaluation, and we went over it together after the kids were in bed. While it did not include any dramatic surprises, he was graded down on his interaction with co-workers with a comment from his supervisor that "this issue has been discussed in previous evaluations."
      I told him in no uncertain terms that I would be contacting the administrative assistant tomorrow (which is today). Art was not happy that I was contacting her.
      This morning after the kids were on the school bus I asked Art if he needed to go get the paddle so we could make sure that he went to work with an appropriate attitude. At that point the good husband that I know and love came through. He said that was not necessary, and he apologized for being resistant and difficult during yesterday's session. He said that he knows he needs to reduce his arrogance at work, and that he definitely had asked me to help him way back when we started our DD, and that he knew he had a blind spot about his arrogance and he wanted my continued help with it. He also said he had been feeling like I had crossed a line with my DD authority into an area that he had not agreed to, but on further reflection he realized that was not the case, and he would work hard not to feel resentful. He also admitted that getting the evaluation was much simpler than he thought and that he wasn't asked for a reason why he wanted it.
      We had a big hug and he went off to work and I called his co-worker and set up a lunch for later this week. I certainly agree with him that I did not cross a line in exerting my authority in this manner, but I also feel like our DD relationship is deepening and helping us get closer to the core of what is causing him to not be the best employee (and father and husband) that he could possibly be.
      Liz

      Delete
    2. Hi Liz. Sounds like great progress. I'm a little surprised that at first he had a bigger problem with showing you the evaluation than with you talking to the assistant. I think I probably would have had those in the reverse order if confronted with the same demands from my wife.

      Delete
    3. Let us know what transpires!

      Delete
    4. Hi Liz
      Your firmness and follow –through here are impressive. As you go down this road I have a question since you have defined your DD to exclusively focus on Art’s arrogance and its consequences. My question is: what will you do if you discover in his work behavior other problems beyond arrogance which are keeping him from his best. Will you just roll with it, add it to your existing DD or disregard it as outside your ambit of authority, or all/none of the above?
      Alan

      Delete
    5. This is Liz. I met with Art's co-worker for lunch on Friday. I will call her Sally. We have talked before at a couple of company social events, and I sort of connected with her, so I thought she would be the one to ask about Art's work behavior. I didn't really know how to broach the subject so I just jumped in. I told her I have been helping him with his arrogance at home, and that he has been telling me about some incidents at work but it was hard to know from him how serious they are. I was hoping she could share her observations.
      She said that she is in virtually every company meeting that Art is in. She started by complimenting him. She said he is always respectful toward women at the office, and there are only a couple other salesmen that he has an issue with. She said she thought some of his issues with them are legitimate and some may be a typical male "pissing contest" to show who is the better salesman.
      I asked her about specific comments he has made to others, and she remembered several. She said he tries to be funny in his comments, and sometimes they are but sometimes they aren't. She mentioned one comment in a long meeting where he said something sarcastic like, "Let's make sure this meeting goes until noon. Then we can take a two-hour, two-martini lunch and knock off early for the day." Everybody laughed at that and got the point.
      But in another meeting he said to one of the salesmen something like, "I got your point the first time you said it. Do we have to listen to it an eighth time?" The response was silence and the other salesman was clearly offended.
      He also pretty much ignores these two other salesmen he doesn't like. He is all business with them, no chitchat like he does with others and is typical in that office setting.
      She said that to her Art doesn't seem to know the difference between a general comment made to everyone, like the meeting is dragging on, and a specific comment that is putting down one person.
      I thanked her profusely and said that Art and I would talk about how to curb his arrogance and sarcasm at work. Then I hemmed and hawed a little bit, not knowing how to say what I wanted to say next.
      "Do you want me to let you know the next time he makes an inappropriate comment?" she asked.
      "Yes," I replied. "I didn't know how to ask you that."
      "I will do it on one condition," Sally said. "That I tell Art that I will be ratting him out to his wife and he is okay with it. I don't want anything happening behind his back, and I don't want to lose my good relationship with him."
      I laughed and said that was fine. Then we talked a bit more. She told me she thinks Art is a great guy. That he is very attractive for an "older man" and that some of the girls in the office flirt with him and he totally ignores it. He doesn't act offended but he doesn't respond, either. "He clearly is a one-woman man," she said, adding that she really respects that.
      That night Art asked me what transpired at the meeting and I said quite a bit and we would "discuss" it Monday morning after the kids get on the school bus. He has been stewing all weekend but I think that's good for him.
      Liz

      Delete
    6. Alan, to answer your question, if I heard he was late back from lunch or not doing good record-keeping or some other work issue, I think that would be within our agreement to use DD for his improvement, but I would discuss it with him first. I think it's a moot point, though, because he is always well-organized and always on time and his work evaluation was excellent in all other areas.
      Liz

      Delete
    7. To clarify, I would say that intentionally being late back from lunch (and similar behavior) is a form of work arrogance. Aren't you sticking it to the boss?
      Liz

      Delete
    8. Liz,
      Your interaction with “Sally” was really rather amazing. She was much more forthcoming than I expected and you didn’t need to reveal more than necessary to accomplish a great deal. Five stars on this one and let him sweat a little. It will be good for him. Next spanking might be a good time to use your paddle as a truth teller with him. It might be interesting. I think everyone will be waiting for the next installment of this adventure
      Alan

      Delete
    9. This is Liz,
      Because Sally did not have a chance to speak with Art Friday afternoon, I delayed our Monday morning session until this morning. Sally did speak with Art yesterday, and he expressed his displeasure about it last night. He said he likes and respects her but does not think he needs somebody at work reporting to his wife about his work behavior. He said he finds it embarrassing and that he was quite red-faced while she was telling him about the plan. I told him we would speak about it further the next morning (today) after the kids were on the school bus, when I intended to make his other end just as red.
      This morning after he assumed the position and I got his attention with a number of hard swats, I asked him if Sally had told him that she would not report to me unless he was okay with it. He admitted that she did say that, but at that point the "cat was out of the bag" and he didn't see any point in creating more trouble with me by saying no to her. I told him rather emphatically that I thought that was a good choice.
      I also asked him whether there was any hint that Sally knew anything about the home consequences for his work arrogance, and he agreed that there was no hint that she knows about our DD.
      We then discussed the need for me to have more information about his arrogance at work. He said it was a good idea in theory but he didn't much care for how it is now working in practice. I told him quite emphatically that there needs to be no resentment about the reporting and that any resentment would be addressed on Monday mornings, and he eventually agreed.
      We then addressed the rude and sarcastic comment he made to his fellow salesman. With some encouragement he agreed that his comment was inappropriate. We then talked about whether he is engaging in a "pissing contest" with his fellow salesmen. At first he said he did not think he was, but I then elicited more comments that he had made to them, along with some comments and actions they had engaged in, that clearly showed they were in a competition that was other than friendly and appropriate. It took quite a bit of persuading for him to agree that he would step away from that competition, but eventually he saw things my way.
      We then had a a discussion about the difference between making general comments in a group, such as about the length of a meeting, and making comments to a specific person that could only be construed as arrogant and rude. He agreed that there is a difference and he could do a better job of recognizing that difference and curbing the comments to specific co-workers.
      I then told him he could stand up and go to work. I got my traditional kiss on the cheek and thank you, though a bit more subdued than usual, and I watched him walk rather gingerly out the door.
      I think this will work just fine.
      Liz

      Delete
    10. Liz, I was going to ask what Sally believes, if anything, to be the likely consequences for Art of the plan to rat him out.

      Delete
    11. I don't know what Sally thinks about that and I don't plan to ask. Maybe a good talking-to. Or maybe she thinks the reporting process and embarrassment is consequence enough. And ... not everyone thinks in terms of rewards and punishments. I intend to leave it a mystery.
      Liz

      Delete
  9. When we first started DD we came up with a list of offences and behaviours to correct , but they were all issues that affected her, some more seriously than others.
    I can honestly say that years later that list would be very small .
    The behaviours that remain seem to be part of my make up and ,while they are less frequent , they still occur.
    Sometimes you don't realize how much a poor behaviour is affecting others until you really hear it from them.
    DD provided her with an opportunity to scold and lecture about the poor behaviour , and I could tell by her tone she was seriously upset.
    The actual paddling was a symbolic way to reinforce her message.
    I had that list memorized and made a converted effort to improve because of this focus.
    I think she accepts that the behaviours that remain are 'just me' and she is a little bit more lenient , letting me off with a warning which works for us very well to smarten me up without a spanking.
    While she uses spanking less often these days , her authority and power to use it remains .
    As a result I believe she gets more enjoyment from paddling me and asserting her authority.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Sometimes you don't realize how much a poor behaviour is affecting others until you really hear it from them. DD provided her with an opportunity to scold and lecture about the poor behaviour . . ." I think this is at the core of what my wife gets out of DD.

      Delete
    2. Me too! Jimmy just says and does things with no thought to how much it might bother me. This is true even when I have told him! He gets this wide-eyed innocence like he had never heard my concern before. Are men really such poor listeners?

      Delete
    3. Perhaps many of us are Belle, I know it really resonated for me when I saw my 'offences' in writing.
      I recall being surprised the list was so long and that some of them upset her so much.
      It wasn't long before she 'taught me to memorize that list, and those offences occur much less often these days , especially since she started with the 'warnings.

      Delete
    4. I do appreciate the opportunity to scold and lecture that DD provides. Without the paddle, I'm bitching and nagging and he can complain about that and not change the behavior that I am nagging about. With the paddle, I'm correcting and he knows he has to listen and improve. The power of DD in changing a husband's attitude about scolding is quite extraordinary. It's one of if not the best thing about F/m DD.
      Liz

      Delete
  10. Indeed, those "warnings" had become very effective for me too. Often she would, if we were in public settings, subtly made a gesture on her palm indicating "that's one." It was her counting to "three". which was a definite point of no return. I didn't make a game of her getting to "two". But if
    she did I was very vigilant to avoid "three."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. She was pretty lenient giving you 3 warnings Tomy....I only get one!

      Delete
    2. I bet you were, indeed, very vigilant after two!

      Delete
    3. It worked marvelously. Peace on earth. :)

      Delete
    4. I need to start doing this. A public warning of some kind.

      Delete
  11. Dan,
    Some answers to the questions posed this week.

    Q-Did he tend to respond best when the issue was most important to her? To him? To both?

    We discussed this but disagree. I think real change happens more and quicker when it is most important to her. That really motivates me especially when she is vocal and consistent about it. But she thinks when the behavior changes is important to both of us, its works best. She says that is the reason she works hard to make me understand why I do what I do and why some behavior modification is needed.

    Q-Did the degree of up-front buy-in really matter with respect to whether the behavior actually changed?

    Absolutely. The firmer the buy in the faster and longer lasting the change. For many things this means permanent change and for a small handful of things it means a dramatic decrease in the offending behavior.

    Q-Have there been any instances in which an issue was important to her but not necessarily to him, but that her determination was such that the change was effected despite his lack of contemporaneous buy-in?

    Yes, quite a few over the years. A few of these have been major misbehavior which I just “didn’t get” until the conversations with her paddle. But most of them have been relatively routine and not major issues like promptness, certain language, more attentive listening and such.

    Alan





    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I just love conversations with the paddle. He is so easygoing! I say you are going to do this and not going to do that, and he says Yes Maam and No Maam and I Will Maam. Why couldn't husbands always respond this way?

      Delete

This blog is a curated resource for those genuinely and positively interested in DD and FLR lifestyles. Comments that are rude, uncivil, inconsistent with the blog's theme or off-topic may not be posted or may be removed.