Sunday, March 21, 2021

The Club - Meeting 370 - Consequences & Turning the Tables

"Obedience of the law is demanded; not asked as a favor.” - Theodore Roosevelt

 

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline relationships. I hope you all had a great week.

 

Ours began and ended with reminders that no matter how much I’m craving this and no matter how much the weather gods fool me into thinking it’s that time of year again . . .

 

  

Something like this is a fantasy a little aligned with the climate reality . . .

 

  

Other than some eventful weather, it was a pretty mundane week.  Not a lot of drama, and nothing relating to the subject of this blog. Anne actually had made it clear she wanted to get things going on the DD front again, but we had some minor illnesses going on that sapped all that energy out of us both.  The combination of my generally decent behavior and nothing happening on the FLR side left me pretty uninspired when it comes to a weekly topic. But, one thing did happen over the weekend that got me thinking about behavior and consequences.

 

We’ve been having some trouble with a discourteous neighbor.  I won’t go into the details, other than saying the neighbor keeps creating a nuisance that really interferes with our ability to enjoy our own home some evenings.  It’s a pretty common kind of problem;  nothing super serious but it has been going on periodically for quite a while and reflects a general lack of common courtesy and good manners. We had tried to deal with it in the spirit of neighbors getting along, but maybe a bit too passively.  And, of course, as is often be the case when bad behavior is not nipped in the bud, the problem escalated until something happened earlier this week that was really the last straw. 

 

So, this time I put my foot down and took some action that escalated the consequences in a way that seems to have gotten the misbehaving neighbors’ attention.  I’m sure they are pissed off, and it may have burned a bridge, but here’s the thing – whatever neighborly goodwill that had existed was really pretty one way anyway.  We behaved and they did not, and the only one suffering any real consequence for their bad behavior has been us.  In escalating my response, I changed that dynamic.  I made the person doing the misbehaving finally bear some of the consequences of their own misbehavior.  And, guess what?  It seems to have worked.  Since I escalated, the problem has stopped.



Isn’t that the way things often work with people who are just generally selfish or lack  good manners?  While many people seem naturally to assess the impact of their actions on others and adjust their behavior accordingly, some seem to lack that natural or socialized state of awareness. For whatever reason (bad raising, inherent self-centeredness, a combination of both . . .), they may not even notice that their actions are inappropriate or highly likely to annoy others.  

 

That creates a problem for those on the receiving end of the bad behavior.  They may be conflict-averse or simply prefer a “turn the other cheek” approach when confronted with rude or discourteous conduct.  But, the other person seems to lack either an awareness of the impact of their actions or any internal inclination to balance whatever pleasure they get out of the behavior against the annoyance or displeasure it causes others and, thus, when no one does anything about it, it's guaranteed that only person is feeling the consequences of a particular behavior are the innocent bystanders on the receiving end of it. 

So, while part of me feels kind of bad about escalating and is not wild about the fact that my neighbor now probably feels some ill-will toward me, another part of me feels good about turning the tables such that some of the consequences of an action were finally being borne by the person engaging in that conduct.  And, the fact that it took some significant escalation to finally get through to the offenders was on them, not on me.  I tried to deal with it more indirectly and less harshly after previous incidents, but they just blew me off.

 

 

I really don’t have a well-defined topic around this, but I’m interested in any DD-related experiences you may have had in which the offender just didn’t seem to realize how their behavior was impacting others or showed little interest in adjusting their behavior until someone impacted by it turned the tables and made sure the offender bore the consequences of their own actions.

87 comments:

  1. When I saw 'Turning the Tables' I thought you had given Anne a spanking !

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  2. Good for you. Without self respect you ain't got nothing.

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    1. In all seriousness, I think it's great that spanked husbands respect themselves. That probably breaks a stereotype more than the gender role reversal in F/m DD.
      Liz

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  3. “I’m interested in any DD-related experiences you may have had in which the offender just didn’t seem to realize how their behavior was impacting others or showed little interest in adjusting their behavior until someone impacted by it turned the tables and made sure the offender bore the consequences of their own actions”. Dan, this fits your criterion but is third party sourced: a European British) guy I corresponded with some time ago about the time my wife decided she wanted to use a witness and I was looking for a lot of answers. He and his wife had practiced DD for many years. His wife apparently frequently confided in her sister before inviting her to witness a DD spankings. At some point my correspondent’s wife told several other friends of her DD relationship and began to somewhat regularly mentor them using her (I imagine) very willing husband to “model”. She basically demonstrated her disciplinary practices for her mentees. Sometimes (maybe often, he wasn’t clear about this) she mentored couples as well as single women. So, it was a couple my correspondent would be spanked in front of both of them as part of the mentoring. The spankings apparently were pretty serious ones He told me in detail about one experience involving a couple whose male half found the whole thing amusing and openly laughed at and made fun of my correspondent for allowing his wife to spank him to tears. My correspondent told me this story to illustrate the only time he was really embarrassed by a witness (something bothering me a lot at the time and asking him about). But the happy denouement (for him) came about a year later. Apparently in the interval laughing boy had been brought under control (my correspondent didn’t provide any detail to the transformation but I am guessing his performance at the demonstration put him on a slippery slope with his wife) In any case my correspondent’s revenge happened just after he had shared a “stage” with laughing boy when they both were spanked by their respective wives. This time it was was laughing boy producing the tears ( and other signs of remorse).I would love to know more about what turned laughing boy from a skeptic and cynic to a boy with a burning bum but my correspondent loved it and actually mentioned it several times to me in his writing
    Alan

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  4. Sometimes it pays off to be harsher than normal.

    I live in a duplex where I'm upstairs, and my neighbor is downstairs. We've been here 4 years now, and I'm friendly with them, so they know about Shilo's cancer etc. One morning recently, the boy was directly under our bedroom window and making loud noises, so I went downstairs, located him, and nicely asked him to quiet down, explaining that he was directly under our bedroom window. It worked, and when his mom found out, she gave him an earful as well.

    I'm glad we get along so well.

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    1. I'm glad to hear some responsible parents still exist.

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  5. This is Liz,
    We've told our story before, but it definitely fits the criterion of "DD-related experiences you may have had in which the offender just didn’t seem to realize how their behavior was impacting others or showed little interest in adjusting their behavior until someone impacted by it turned the tables and made sure the offender bore the consequences of their own actions."
    My husband is a good man who had a huge blind spot. He just didn't have any idea what his arrogance and sarcasm were doing to his family and his career. He thought his sarcasm was funny and his arrogance was justified. When our kids got to be pre-teens and teens and started acting obnoxious like all teenagers do, he ramped up the sarcastic attacks on them. I talked to him about it but he had "no interest in adjusting his behavior." His behavior declined to the level of our teenagers. If they were snotty, he was snotty back, but tenfold. If they gave him the silent treatment, he did it to them twice as long. And with constant snide and sarcastic comments. To me too, but more to the kids. I took it for as long as I could. Then I "turned the tables and made sure he bore the consequences." I took the kids and left.
    I was only gone three and a half days, but it was the wake-up call he needed. He was shaken to the core, and more so when I refused his phone calls. He finally came to my mother's house where we were staying. She wouldn't let him in, but she talked to him briefly at the door. She suggested he needed a thrashing.
    That offhand comment was the beginning of our DD. The next night he presented it to me, that I could paddle him anytime he got arrogant or sarcastic. I paddled him that very night. We reunited the next day.
    The DD was not the consequence of his actions. Me leaving with the children was the consequence. But DD has been an effective tool in keeping his arrogance in check. I am glad my mother suggested it to him and that he then suggested it to me. Now he is much more aware of his arrogance. When he isn't, I paddle him good.
    Liz

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    1. Liz,
      “The DD was not the consequence of his actions, me leaving with the children was the consequence. But DD has been an effective tool in keeping his arrogance in check. “To me this encapsulates DD’s role in behavior modification. It isn’t just the pain and embarrassment of the spanking but the motivation to change that makes it all work, I would also add that part of that motivation is knowing that the spanking is being administered by someone who loves and cares about you. The spanking is very much an expression of that love
      Alan

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    2. Hi Liz. It occurred to me as I wrote the post that you and Art were probably the poster children for this topic.

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    3. And proud to be so.
      Liz

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  6. Not DD-related, but this reminds me of something. Must have been 20 years ago, we had a young couple move in next door to us. They seemed nice, and things between us were cordial. Our adjacent back yards were divided by a high wooden fence. They had a couple young kids who were quite rambunctious. As far as I could tell, the parents, who otherwise looked organized and well-turned-out, never did anything to control them. Just typical self-involved young people these days, we figured. We’d often find stuff in our yard that had been tossed over the fence, sometimes food. We had a diabetic dog, so we were having to check around before allowing her out to run free. My wife had a pleasant talk about it with the young mother next door, everything was understood, no problem. But nothing really changed. One day we were in back, their kids were screaming through their games or whatever, and a little bit of something came flying over the fence, turned out to be candy. We went to their front door, rang the bell and, my wife, who wasn’t as calm as I about it, gave the young mother, who was shocked to be confronted, quite a scolding. Things improved, as far as our yard being their landfill but, after that, they avoided us meanies next door. That printed cup, “My Parents Spanked Me As A Child…” might have made a nice conciliatory gift to leave them.

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    1. "[A]fter that, they avoided us as the meanies next door." I think that incapsulates what keeps most people from escalating when they are being victimized by someone else's conduct. It is great to be a nice neighbor who wants to be liked and who values maintaining peace in the neighborhood. But, it can guarantee you bear the brunt of neighbors who don't feel the same way or who say they care but don't really do anything to show it. I don't want to be the old guy screaming at the neighborhood kids to "Get off my lawn!" But, is aggravating as hell when you have tried to raise an issue politely and that effort is ignored.

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    2. Hi Dan, I think you are exactly right about this, or at least in my case. I would generally rather endure a lot of irritations rather than forever being thought of as the bad guy. Maybe this can be good because it might help avoid some unnecessary confrontations (since not every grievance must be aired at all times), and maybe it doesn't really hurt me all that much since at least I can learn to be more patient. However, if everyone is this way, then bad behavior never gets called by anyone, and the idiots continue on their merry way, oblivious to the fact (or uncaring about the fact) that they are making everyone else miserable around them.

      -ZM

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  7. My story is somewhat similar to Liz's but the "consequence" of separation was three years, not three days!
    My Jimmy is pretty much the stereotypical blue collar worker: Big and strong, hard-working and hard-playing, very skilled at his trade, foul-mouthed and sexist, tough on the exterior but a heart of gold and a little boy inside. And at the age of 19, I fed right into that. I loved and was turned on by his bravado, and I wanted to be the little woman who stayed home and raised our babies. After almost a decade of that, and finding out I could not have biological children, I changed. And he didn't know what to do with me. It really wasn't his fault. He was the same guy he had always been, but I was a totally different woman. I wanted a career, and I wanted equality at home.
    So I went out on my own for the first time. (I had moved directly from my parents house to his house). I found a career, and I became a grownup.
    But for me to take Jimmy back, he had to change too. He had to start treating me with respect, and he needed to give me some power in the relationship. He had no idea how to do those things, and I had no idea how to make him. I was already withholding sex, and that wasn't changing him any, just making him more desirous of me.
    I loved him, but I knew I could live without him. But he didn't feel the same. He was desperate and wanted me back. I had moved back into the house to save money, but we were living as roommates. I think this made him even more desperate, seeing me every day. I was hoping that might inspire him to change. I sure had told him often enough what I needed to be different.
    One day, out of the blue, he made a comment that maybe I should spank him when he acted disrespectfully. Then he laughed. But it was one of those nervous laughs like what he had said wasn't really a joke. I don't think I said anything in response, but that night I got on the computer and started doing research about spanking in marriage. I quickly learned the term DD, but it was hard to find stuff that was not porn or obvious fiction. I read a couple of articles in Cosmopolitan, but they were really surface. I wanted to find something that described a real relationship and how it worked. I started jumping from blog to blog, skipping anything that was mainly pictures. Finally I found Ronnie's Heart and Soul blog, and I read a couple years of posts. It seemed real, but the spankings, while disciplinary, were also a big part of their sex life, and of course, it was M/f. I'm not positive, but I think it was from that blog that I got to Dan's. Here were DD people, mostly spanked husbands, having *serious* conversations about Domestic Discipline. Again, I read a couple years worth of posts before I posted, asking questions of the guys. In particular I feared that Jimmy would turn into a kind of a sissy if I were spanking him. I never could have gotten back together with him then. But Dan and other alphas on here convinced me that was not the case, and that since he had the guts to suggest DD that he would likely follow through and that it could be used for *real* behavior modification.
    So one night I paddled him hard over his pants with a bath brush. And for about three days after he was the most perfect gentleman I had ever met, without being a wuss. I thought, okay, there is something to this. As you regular readers have seen on here, the DD has given me the power I needed and led directly to our full reunification. Jimmy still acts like a jerk sometimes, and like a naughty little kid sometimes, and I spank him for both. But his behavior has improved so dramatically that other people have noticed.
    So to address the specific topic, he was unaware or did not care about how his disrespectful behavior was harming our marriage, and I did turn the tables with a consequence, and coming up with a new consequence (corporal punishment) has helped us get back together and thrive.
    Belle

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    1. This so nourishes my simple-minded philosophy of life. If love leads, all ends up well. (and in our world, some ends end up up)

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    2. Bottoms Up is not just about alcohol!
      Red Cheeks is not just about the face!
      Bend Over is not just an exercise routine!
      Hairbrushes are not just for hair!

      I love your outlook on life, Tomy.
      Belle

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    3. Belle,
      This is really an inspiring narrative and I hope many other younger couples will be inspired from it. You showed remarkable initiative and energy sending DD might work for you and then figuring out how to make it happen. Your experience stands out because you discovered early what took much longer for many of us to confront. I expect a majority of us went through years of frustration and denial before reaching the point you are now.” I wish we had started earlier’ is a too common observation one hears from DD couples. It’s not just some women who resist opening that door but men too, especially the alphas who when younger have real conflict between who they are and their need/desire for feminine discipline. Both of you blew right through that and as I said earlier I hope other younger couples do learn from you
      Alan

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    4. Alan,
      It may seem quick to you and I appreciate the compliments, but Jimmy and I were together for almost 11 years and apart for three before we figured any of this out, and that seems like a long time to me. Yes, we are in our 30s, but I don't see us as quick learners at all. Like many of you, I wish I had taken up the paddle long before I did. I don't know how I made it all those years with no power, no kids, and no career. It seems like a wasted decade. For me, adult life started at 30. That's a bit embarrassing. But then, Jimmy's adult life hasn't started yet!

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    5. Your description of Jimmy is pretty much where I started in life: "stereotypical blue collar worker: Big and strong, hard-working and hard-playing, very skilled at his trade, foul-mouthed and sexist, tough on the exterior but a heart of gold and a little boy inside." I ended up in a much different place over time, but that's still where I come from, and there is a place for it. I'm pretty liberal politically, but I am so totally sick and tired of all the "woke" crap, in part because it makes every foul-mouthed, fun loving, off-color joke into an unpardonable character defect leading to banishment from polite, i.e. woke society. Frankly, it's a bunch of professors at Yale and Harvard that put this woke ball in motion, and is there a woman anywhere who honestly wants to fuck those guys or their ilk?

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    6. Dan,
      This resonates strongly with me. "Woke" which is really the new PC is toxic to real progressive-ism and just gives aid and comfort to the right wingnuts that are not just crazy but dangerous. Its the extreme wings of BOTH political parties tha have put America in the position it finds itself and until we find our way back to the center we are gong to stay lost. If you haven't read it, pick up a copy of Stuart Stevens "It was all lies". It's probably the best short book on politics in a decade by a guy who really knows what he is talking about
      Alan

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    7. Dan and Alan, I totally agree about the whole "woke" thing. I am all for being kind and considerate of everyone, but I hate that everyone is now attacking everyone about everything, failing to see the good in each other and failing to respect other points of views. All it takes is one transgression, showing that you are even just the tiniest bit less woke than the most woke, and you are branded for life as being entirely bad an completely irredeemable.

      -ZM

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    8. Alan, I haven't read that book but will add it t my list.

      ZM, totally agree. It's gotten totally out of hand, and some of the wokesters need to get that they are causing real progressives and moderate Dems to lose elections, because the vast majority of voters have zero interest in living in the "woke" world these Twitter wokesters are demanding.

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    9. We are getting what we deserve with "woke-ism" because reasonable, decent people are too freakin' afraid to tell them publicly to fuck off. They only have the power they do because it is surrendered to them without a fight. As Dan observed, elections are being lost......which means.....mathematically.....there are more anti-woke people out there. So why are they being cowed to? And for goodness sake people, if you didn't do anything wrong, STOP APOLOGIZING to these nutjobs!

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    10. KD, couldn't possibly agree more. I have posted this several times, but it totally nails your point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaC1-U8LIY0

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    11. Let me repeat my earlier repetition: the “woke” movement is the left wing equivalent of the right wing crazies who enable Trump. Both extremes are far out of the mainstream in terms of opinions, values and tactics. Yet the press and social media give them grossly disproportionate attention – which is why we end up talking about them and reacting to them. Their prominence in America today exists because the political center (i.e. most of us) has collapsed for lack of leadership –and yes because it has surrendered (good term, KD) to the extremes. Until we stop both extremes from controlling the dialogue , we can never unite the country
      Alan

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  8. I don't know if my recent Covid-punishment fits what you're after of not? But I suppose it could in a way. However, it also illustrates that NOT seeing the other person's side can be a two-way street. As you know from the post on it, my reluctance to go into the hospital sooner was probably silly in retrospect, but it was geared to ensuring Rosa would have things taken care of for a month at least if things went real bad.....as they could have. And it did prompt serious action on our parts to finally take time to organize our information so that either of us can have everything we need in the absence of the other. So my reluctance was upsetting....but not entirely baseless.

    And besides, when you are in the midst of Covid, your mind is worse than being drunk!

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    1. It is a good point that we should all entertain the possibility that there is some other side that excuses what looks on the surface like selfish or unaware conduct. I do try to keep in mind that people may be dealing with some terrible stuff that we know nothing about.

      Get those Covid shots!

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    2. Art's father was arrogant but I don't accept that as an excuse. We may be the image of our parents in young adulthood, but we have the chance to change and be better than they were, and 20+ years was taking it a little slow in Art's case.
      Liz

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    3. Liz, I agree. We all are influenced by the environments we grew up in, but particularly given the free flow of news, media, etc., there isn't much excuse anymore for being an unthinking function of that early environment.

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    4. Dan & Liz: Am I missing a link here? I'm not seeing the connection.

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    5. kd,
      The role models set by our parents may be part of the "terrible stuff" that peop;le are dealing with about which we are unaware.
      Liz

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  9. Danielle here:

    I suppose that part of the satisfaction of FLR for me is that it is a turning of tables on the patriarchal power structure in which I was raised. I can remember having to help my mother in the kitchen, while my father and my brother just relaxed and talked. That's why I get so much satisfaction from seeing my apron-wearing husband at work in the kitchen while I relax. It may not be a totally fair turning of tables because Wayne wasn't personally involved in my family, and he has always claimed to support feminism.

    Then again, I don't think Wayne's embrace of feminism was quite as thorough as he thought. I have talked to Wayne's sister Liz about this since revealing our FLR to her. She says that although their family was more liberal and less overtly sexist than mine, she still felt there was some subtle sexism. She had the same feeling as me, that her brother's academic achievements were more important than hers. She says that Wayne wasn't exempted from housework when they were kids, but she didn't feel he did a truly fair share. That's probably why Wayne and I used to argue about a fair division of housework before FLR. His idea of "equal" wasn't truly equal, in my opinion.

    Liz and I agree that Wayne's biggest blind spot as a supposed feminist is "mansplaining." Before FLR I criticized him for that a lot, but he never accepted the criticism. He claimed I was imagining it, but I knew I wasn't. In conversations with family and friends, he would literally complete my sentences sometimes because he thought he knew how to explain things better. That used to make me really angry sometimes. Liz agrees with me. She says he has always done that, ever since they were kids and he was the smarty pants of the family. I am happy to say that discipline has almost eliminated Wayne's mansplaining habit. Sometimes he forgets, but a stern look is usually enough to make him mindful.

    I am glad I told Wayne's sister about our FLR. She was almost gleeful to hear that I humble Wayne with spankings. I have been tempted since then to ask her whether she would like to witness a spanking. That is because of the table turning dynamic, I suppose. I know that if I found out my brother's wife spanked him, I would love to see it.

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    1. I honestly don't know whether I'm guilt of "mansplaining." I don't really think so, but then the whole point of this topic was about people who engage in irritating or destructive conduct but either don't care or, very possibly, don't know they are doing it.

      I suspect that one of my sisters feels the same as you, but in my case I would defend the disparity in how things happened and how they turned out for us. The plain fact is, I got better grades, worked harder both at home and at school, pushed myself harder to achieve more, etc., while she was one of those typical middle kids who sometimes found it easier to bitch about an older sibling getting better results than to do any serious soul-searching about whether that older sibling was, in fact, just working harder. It sounds like in your situation, your male siblings were *not* working harder; quite the opposite. I suspect my sister would say she is as smart as me and worked just as hard but didn't get the attention. The problem is it just isn't true.

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    2. Dan, if neither your wife nor any woman colleague has ever called you out for mansplaining, you probably don’t do it, especially considering that your wife could spank you for it if you annoyed her that way.

      To be fair to my brother and my husband, they probably are both smarter than me, at least in an academic way. My brother was a math and science whiz who became an engineer. I wasn’t good enough at math to do that. But I was better than him at other things. I was way better at physical education! Lol. I say that jokingly, but I feel that if I had been a boy, my athletic abilities would have been taken more seriously. Anyway, I don’t want to come across as tearing my brother and my husband down out of resentment. I don’t mind them being smarter or more successful than me. I admire intelligent men. But the turning of tables is fun! Also, just because a guy may be the smartest person in the room, that doesn’t mean he couldn’t benefit from a dose of humility or that he doesn’t have blind spots.

      Oh, and I wouldn't say my brother didn't work as hard as me at school. He was very studious. But my mother didn't make him do all the housework I had to do, just because he was a boy. That's the part I resented.

      By the way, Dan, it sounds like there is some sibling rivalry between your younger sister and you. How do you think she would react if she knew Anne spanks you? How would that make you feel? Just curious.

      Danielle

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    3. Unfortunately, the rivalry is pretty much entirely in her mind. I honestly don't know whether one of us is smarter than the other. I think the teachers we had i common would say I am, but I don't know whether she ever really tried. I like her, but she's just one of those people who live their lives resenting others' success, but without ever really trying that hard or reaching for any goal that is very ambitious. I suspect part of her would take some satisfaction in knowing my wife spanks me. I'm not really sure how I'd feel about it, but I think my biggest concern would not really be that it would embarrass me but, rather, that any pleasure she might get out of it might reinforce what I see as an already unfortunate tendency to compare herself to me and my relationships to hers.

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    4. I am not sure if I am guilty of mansplaining or not. My former wife would undoubtedly say yes, but she seemed to hate that I happen to know quite a lot about quite a few topics. I would say that I tend to be opinionated at times, though I have no reason to believe that might not be just as true if I were female.

      To me, an accurate accusation of mansplaining far exceeds just a man explaining something, but rather must be rooted in the fact that he is either convinced or at least assuming he is more right because he is male. If he actually knows certain facts and he is trying to correct a woman who is factually incorrect, that would hardly qualify in my book, though many might still (wrongly) accuse him.

      And Danielle, as I mentioned before, my wife is from a VERY patriarchal society (in which we currently live). I could easily see "turning the patriarchy on its head" as being quite a big rush of power for her.

      -ZM

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    5. "If he actually knows certain facts and he is trying to correct a woman who is factually incorrect, that would hardly qualify in my book, though many might still (wrongly) accuse him." Totally agree. I do think that "mansplaining" has taken on some PC-like elements, where it's just OK to criticize any opinion voice by a man as indicative of some kind of bias or privilege.

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    6. Why is it OK to explain something to a woman when she needs the help and is clearly doing something incorrectly, but it's "mansplaining" if you intervene before being asked because you see the errors being committed? Personally I think it's because people don't like to be confronted with what they don't know. It's like the joke about cats and dogs walking into walls. Dogs do it and look stupid, cats do it and give you a look like "I meant that."

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    7. Cats really are a great lesson on what attitude and shameless can do for you.

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    8. Danielle here:
      I feel that I need to explain my use of the term “mansplaining”.

      ZM wrote: >>>To me, an accurate accusation of mansplaining far exceeds just a man explaining something, but rather must be rooted in the fact that he is either convinced or at least assuming he is more right because he is male. <<<


      That is the precise definition of mansplaining: men acting like they know better than women, even when a woman has superior expertise on a topic. If any of you guys think that doesn't happen, it's because you haven't noticed it since it doesn't affect you personally.

      ZM wrote: >>>I am not sure if I am guilty of mansplaining or not. My former wife would undoubtedly say yes, but she seemed to hate that I happen to know quite a lot about quite a few topics. I would say that I tend to be opinionated at times, though I have no reason to believe that might not be just as true if I were female.<<


      If your former wife accused you of it, you should probably ask yourself whether she had a point. Guys who are opinionated often impose their opinions on other people. You are right that a woman COULD be as guilty of that as a man. However, because men tend to be more assertive than women, and women tend to be more agreeable than men, men are more likely to muscle women out of discussions than vice versa. I worked in education, and I observed that phenomenon in both the classroom and staff meetings. There is also the phenomenon of the big brained guy thinking his expertise in one area makes him knowledgeable about everything. My brother has that. I have no issue with him correcting me when it comes to things mathematical or scientific. But it drives me crazy when he thinks his big brain makes his opinions about education more valuable than my experience and training. Now, I suppose guys like that may "mansplain" to other men too. But because men tend to be more domineering than women, women are more likely than men to withdraw from an argument than to waste their time in a pissing contest with a man. Also, when men get into argumentative pissing contests in mixed groups, women are often unable to express their opinions because some men will ignore or talk right over the women.

      My husband has been guilty of that kind of thing. That's why I find it satisfying, when he is bent over with his pants down and I am holding the strap, to say to him, "I'm going to do the talking now, and you're going to listen carefully. You will only speak if I ask you direct question, and then you will only answer yes or no." That has been empowering for me and educational for my husband. Not only does he now admit that he was once guilty of mansplaining, he has learned not to do it.

      I said I would love to see my sister-in-law humble my brother by spanking him. I'll go further. I'm worked up enough about this topic right now that I would gladly paddle his bum myself! Lol.

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    9. Dan wrote: >>>I do think that "mansplaining" has taken on some PC-like elements, where it's just OK to criticize any opinion voice by a man as indicative of some kind of bias or privilege<<<

      Dan, I don't disagree with you. I was reluctant to use the term because I think some extreme feminists do use it the way you say, to render any opinion a man may have invalid on the grounds of "male privilege." I believe male privilege is a real thing, but I agree that some women apply the concept way too loosely.
      Danielle

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    10. KD wrote: >>>Why is it OK to explain something to a woman when she needs the help and is clearly doing something incorrectly, but it's "mansplaining" if you intervene before being asked because you see the errors being committed? Personally I think it's because people don't like to be confronted with what they don't know.<<<

      I see your point, KD, but I think the way a person reacts to being "corrected" depends on the context and the way it is done. "Help" can be offered in a way that is tactful and polite, or it can be offered in a way that feels condescending. I don't know. Maybe we women tend to be more sensitive about that kind of thing. When I say my husband was guilty of mansplaining, it wasn’t really about correcting me on factual errors. It was more like if I was telling friends about something we did, he would think he could explain it better than me, so he might interrupt my telling of the story or literally finish my sentences. And then when I would get upset and tell him that doing that made it look like he thought I was stupid, he would either deny doing it, or he would say I was being oversensitive and he was just trying to help. The angriest spankings I have ever given him have been for that. Fortunately, he has learned from that discipline.
      Danielle

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    11. Danielle: Good points. And indicative of something I find to be true in everything. There are no black & whites. Each situation has to be weighed on its own merits. In this case it's true that men can be guilty of this, and equally true that sometimes they're not and get accused of it anyway. I can live with that. And I do think women can be overly sensitive about being told they are doing something incorrectly, no matter how tactfully conveyed. But I've SEEN guys willfully ignore correction from another guy, just to stand their ground and continue to do something incorrectly just to prove a point. And usually that point is obliterated by the failed end result of not taking the advice they were given. Perhaps it's not so much a gender issue in what is being done, since a guy will do it to a guy, but a gender issue in how it is reacted to? (I'm glad you womansplained that so well. LOL)

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    12. Hi Danielle,
      You are correct that I MAY have been guilty of mansplaining, at least from my former wife's point of view. One thing that was particularly difficult was that she seemed to find facts inconvenient or irrelevant whenever she was going off about something. So for me, if someone is going to throw out a "black is white" type statement and then just go on, I just HAVE to correct it, even though you would think I would have learned by now that it usually just isn't worth it!

      "I worked in education..." Hmmm, now I have this image of a teacher holding a paddle in my head... Hahaha!

      "There is also the phenomenon of the big brained guy thinking his expertise in one area makes him knowledgeable about everything." - I think this is a real problem for many people, including me. I happen to know a lot about a lot of different things, so I get too used to being "the smartest guy in the room" and the one everyone looks to for answers. While that is true for most things, that doesn't mean that I know everything about everything, and that is what gets me in trouble! So I tend to easily move from my expertise in other areas to things such as politics, where much of what I state is merely opinion. HOWEVER, I think that I am just as likely to do this with another guy as I am with a woman. So I might be an outspoken, egotistical jerk at times, but at least I am gender neutral about it!

      Having said all that, I believe that the world could be a much better place if logic were used everywhere, since it only takes about 2 seconds to realize the stupidity of many decisions. So, I don't care if it is a man or woman who is speaking, in the end I think that fact and logics should rule the day. Everyone can have an opinion, but not all opinions are equally valid, especially if facts refute them.

      And KD, I liked your "Perhaps it's not so much a gender issue in what is being done, since a guy will do it to a guy, but a gender issue in how it is reacted to?" I think that this might well be the case. Maybe guys just approach things differently, and it is not that they are misogynists, but rather just because they are guys. We too probably think other guys are loud and obnoxious towards us, but we just don't assume it is because of our gender, but rather because of who they are.

      -ZM

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    13. ZM: Thanks. I think we are of a similar opinion on this issue and perhaps similar in our own life experience of how things play out. That's why I made that comment about people seeking my help, but then being upset if I help in the same caring manner when I see something about to go awry, but have not been asked to intervene. And yet? What kind of person watches someone they like proceed with something you know is going to end disastrously, and NOT say something? Like that scene in "Jeremiah Johnson" where Wil Geer's character tells Redford .....AFTER he nearly sets himself on fire, that he saw from the start that Redford didn't lay enough insulation down on the coals before going to sleep. LOL.

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  10. Hi Danielle,

    From reading your comments the past few years, I have learned that your judgement about Wayne and discipline are invariably the right ones. But I am going to suggest you move carefully if you consider allowing Wayne’s sister to witness a spanking. I have been spanked in front of my wife’s sister many times as well as a couple of times within earshot of a girlfriends best friend and on balance those have all been positive experiences – positive to the point I believe anyone in a DD relationship should consider including a witness at least once. But sisters may bring emotional baggage into it that are not positive. I know it would trouble me. I may be atypical about this and so maybe others will comment but being punished in front of a sister would go beyond humbling or embarrassment. Wayne may feel completely different about this and being spanked with his sister present may have a very positive effect on him (and his behavior) as I expect you intend. But maybe if I stake out a position here, we might get some comments. The topic of witnesses seems endlessly fascinating.
    Alan

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    1. Alan, thanks for your advice that I think carefully before inviting Wayne's sister to witness a spanking. I suppose you may be right. Out of curiosity, do you have a sister yourself? If so, does she know your wife spanks you, or are you and your wife secretive about DD with your side of the family? You say you have been spanked many times in front of your sister-in-law. I'm curious why a sister-in-law would be so different than a sister. You said, "being punished in front of a sister would go beyond humbling or embarrassing." What do you mean? How would it go beyond? I have said that I would willingly be a witness to my brother being spanked by his wife if I found out they were into DD. I would love to see my brother humbled that way, but I don't think it would make me love or respect him any less. Maybe that is because I've been spanking Wayne for so long that I don't see anything terribly shameful about a man being spanked by his wife. Wayne knows that his sister knows I spank him. He was embarrassed when I told her, but I don't think it was a traumatic humiliation for him. She has teased him about it in a light-hearted way, which makes him blush, but I don't think it has totally changed their relationship. It has, however, given me more sisterly feelings towards my sister-in-law. Much to think about.

      Danielle

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    2. Danielle,
      These are all good and fair questions I would like to ponder before responding - I am tied up in a time sensitive pro just now but will return to this when I can. Thanks for the chance to think through some of these issues.
      Alan

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    3. Danielle,
      I know what you mean about seeing your brother spanked. I must admit that I kind of enjoyed seeing my older brothers getting it when we were kids, especially from my mom, who was the one who spanked me. It was nice to know that they couldn't handle her wooden spoon any better than I could.
      When they got older, my dad would discipline them with his belt, but he almost always took them into their bedroom to punish them, so I didn't get to see it. I felt that was very unfair, since I usually got it in the kitchen from my mom and anyone who was around could witness. I once complained to my mom about that and she said that she must not be spanking me hard enough if I was worried about witnesses, and the next time I went over her knee she made sure I wasn't thinking about anything but the reason for my punishment.
      I doubt very much that either of my brothers is spanked by their wives. It's more likely the other way around. But many of the husbands on here are examples of strong personalities who do get it from their wives, so you never can tell. And yes, I wouldn't mind seeing that at all. Both of my brothers teased me a lot (and sometimes still do), so they have much to pay for.
      Liz
      Liz

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    4. Hi Danielle, I don't have a sister, so I really don't know how I would feel if my sister were to find out or even witness a spanking. However, one thing that I really like that you said is that having Wayne's sister know has given you more sisterly feelings for your sister in law. I really, really like the thought of the shared intimacy (non-sexual) and closeness this would bring if someone knew or saw.

      -ZM

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    5. Liz, I like the honesty about enjoying seeing your brothers spanked. I bet many siblings would say the same if they were honest.

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    6. My brothers witnessed me getting it far more than I witnessed them. That still rankles me. I'd be getting it over mom's knee in the kitchen and one of them would waltz in "for a glass a milk" and take their sweet time getting it. Then they would tease me later about what they saw and heard. My mom seldom took my panties down, so to her there was no modesty issue. But my skirt was always up (or my jeans down), so the embarrassment factor was extreme even if it was "modest." What girl wants their older brothers seeing them like that? But when they got it from my dad, their bedroom door was closed and woe to me if I tried to see anything. Grrr ...

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    7. I agree that your brothers being punished in private while you were not was unfair, but in our home girls never had their panties taken down just like you while my underpants were always removed. It sounds like that may have happened to your brothers too in private. I resented that back then and still think it was a double standard.
      Alan

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    8. I enjoy reading about these kinds of sibling interactions, the rivalries and embarrassments and all that. The idea of sisters wanting to see their brothers get spanked is especially appealing. However, it doesn’t work for me, personally, with my own siblings. They don’t fit into the attraction or fantasy. Maybe it’s because we grew up under the same roof suffering the same indignities but, for sure, we don’t have the kind of adult relationships where wives spanking husbands is a thing to share.

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    9. Danielle here:

      Liz wrote: >>>Danielle, I know what you mean about seeing your brother spanked. I must admit that I kind of enjoyed seeing my older brothers getting it when we were kids, especially from my mom, who was the one who spanked me. It was nice to know that they couldn't handle her wooden spoon any better than I could.
      When they got older, my dad would discipline them with his belt, but he almost always took them into their bedroom to punish them, so I didn't get to see it. I felt that was very unfair, since I usually got it in the kitchen from my mom and anyone who was around could witness. <<<

      Right on, sister! Here's to seeing brothers get spanked! Lol.

      My mother was also unfair about spanking. She hardly ever spanked my brother, even though he was younger. I think that was partly favoritism (she was actually my stepmother and his biological mother) and partly for the practical reason that I was expected to do lots of housework, so my mother found more things to spank me for. I usually had to wear dresses or skirts back then, so like you I usually got spanked on the panties with my skirt raised. Since I had to do lots of work in the kitchen she sometimes spanked me there, and my brother got to see. I must have had a more acute sense of modesty than you because I felt embarrassed even with panties on. My brother was younger than me, so maybe my mother thought my sense of shame shouldn’t matter until HE reached a certain age. When I got older my mother would slap me or pull my hair instead of spanking me. That felt more hurtful, though less embarrassing. Corporal punishment for my brother was administered by my father, but I didn’t get to see it because my father, like yours, did it in my brother's bedroom with the door closed. My brother didn't get it often, but I confess that I liked it when he did because he only got it when he was an insufferable brat. I think I would have enjoyed it even more if my father didn't close the door. Lol. I know my father punished my brother with his belt because I would see him taking his belt off on the way to my brother’s room. I don’t know for sure whether my brother’s pants were taken down for those punishments, but I assume they were. Otherwise, why would my father close the door? There’s something I just thought of now. I always assumed that punishing my brother in his bedroom was to preserve HIS modesty. But now that I think about it, given my father’s patriarchal attitude, it was probably for the sake of MY modesty; to shield me from seeing something he thought I shouldn’t see. If only daddy could see me now! lol

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    10. Alan,
      You are correct that my brothers got it bare with Dad's belt while I usually got the wooden spoon from Mom over panties. I think my Dad probably wanted the boys bare so he could see where his belt was landing, whereas the wooden spoon is much easier to control. Or maybe it was just family tradition. Dad never put anyone OTK, either, while Mom always did.
      Danielle is also correct that Dad was protecting MY modesty by making sure I didn't see my brothers' man parts.
      So I resented being spanked in front of witnesses when my brothers weren't, while my brothers likely resented being spanked bare while I wasn't. Maybe that makes us even, but I still wouldn't mind seeing my brothers spanked by their wives since they saw me spanked so many times. Never going to happen, though.
      Liz

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  11. Hi Danielle,
    I am responding to your earlier note above regarding witnesses, In the interim I see Dan has commented on a similar topic. Much of what he said echoes my own feelings and I don’t think I can say them better than he did. Here are my responses to the three specific questions you raised:

    1. “Does she know your wife spanks you, or are you and your wife secretive about DD with your side of the family?

    The answer is I don’t know. She knew quite a bit about my earlier DD relationship including that spanking was involved. She knew the woman I was involved with and approved of it as far as I know. These days we live in distant cities, are not in close contact and she knows nothing directly about the nature of my marriage (including whether it’s DD or not).

    2. “You say you have been spanked many times in front of your sister-in-law. I'm curious why a sister-in-law would be so different than a sister.”

    Answering this I again reference Dan’s comment on this . In addition I think that knowing my wife’s sister only as an adult matters. Bringing someone from childhood or adolescence into adult DD makes it just a bit murky


    3. “You said, "Being punished in front of a sister would go beyond humbling or embarrassing." What do you mean? How would it go beyond? “

    In answering that I want to make clear I think humbling, embarrassment and even some shaming is often necessary and appropriate in adult discipline. But humiliation is not. Why would being spanked in front of a sister be humiliating? Honestly I am not sure, but part of it is the sibling rivalry you alluded to earlier and part of it is that eroticizing the spanking experience makes the humbling a positive experience. But there would be zero eroticization having my pants taken down in front of my sister and being spanked like a naughty little boy. It would be humiliating. I was going to add tha it would be like your wife taking your pants down in front of a lover but I remember you did something like this and Wayne did eroticize it. So maybe lacking the experience I am wrong about that but its not an experience I want to have either.Good questions, made me think about it all
    Alan

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    1. Hi Alan,
      As I said to Danielle above, I have no sister, so I have no idea about what it would be like to have a sister witness me being spanked. I certainly expect you are correct when you say "bringing someone from childhood or adolescence into adult DD makes it just a bit murky." Kind of like "worlds collide" on Seinfeld years ago! As far as the whole humiliation aspect, I am less sure. I see what you are saying that eroticizing the spanking experience makes the humbling a positive experience, and obviously that would not be the case with your sister watching, I am not that convinced that the erotic element is necessary. You described it as being spanked like a "naughty little boy," which is pretty correct since most childhood spankings are not intended to be erotic in any way. But I think that most times corporal punishment has been used through history (parental, school, judicial, military, prison, etc.) there was no erotic element, but that didn't seem to keep it from happening or from being effective. However, I do think that spankings are particularly effective for me because they are so erotic that they just cut right through everything and the experience is burned into my consciousness.

      -ZM

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    2. ZM,
      You are right that corporal punishment doesn’t need to be erotic to be effective but adult consensual spanking does need erotic overtones of some degree to continue as both adult and consensual. It is seemingly paradoxical that spanking can be highly erotic and seriously disciplinary but as many of us know, it can be. When it works, it helps build relationships, can modify behavior and provides some of the most mind blowing sexual experience there is. But it’s easy enough to understand why many people outside the spanking community don’t “get it”. That erotic spark is the march that light the flame –no match, no flame
      Alan

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    3. Alan, I 'll let them speak for themselves, but I suspect Liz and Art would disagree with you on whether erotic overtones are a necessity.

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    4. I look forward to hearing on that.
      Alan

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    5. As would I. If true, I guess I should plan on Nickki converting from being a Lesbian so she can begin an affair with me? LOL

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    6. ZM,

      I definitely disagree that "erotic" overtones are necessary for adult consensual spanking. Why would they be? I don't get aroused paddling Art, and he doesn't get aroused being paddled by me. We do a couple things to prevent the possibility. He keeps his pants up, and we do not do OTK.

      I would say that we do experience a couple of "overtones." One is maternal. That seems to arise naturally out of a woman spanking a man. The other is a power exchange. That also seems natural (and somewhat inevitable) with consensual adult domestic discipline.

      We do have erotic overtones related to spanking, but not our DD. I like to be spanked as foreplay, as I have previously related. That was going on for many years before we started DD. But I can honestly say that I do not feel any of the same erotic feelings when punishing my husband. And he says he is not turned on in either instance, and I know that is true just by looking at his lack of arousal.

      ZM, why do you think that erotic is mandatory for DD to be adult and consensual?
      Liz

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    7. Alan, thanks for your thoughtful replies to my questions. If I understand what you are saying, the embarrassment of being spanked in front of your sister-in-law is softened because there are erotic overtones. But since there would be no erotic aspect if your sister was involved, there would be no compensation to soften the humiliation. That’s the reason it was easier for my husband to accept being spanked in front of my friend Barb than it would to be to be spanked in front of his sister. I get that.

      Although I don’t really have a spanking kink myself, I always just assumed that adult/adult spanking must have an erotic element. But the discussion about brothers and sisters has made me rethink my feelings about that. It would give me satisfaction to see my brother humbled with a spanking, but it wouldn’t be erotic. I have a feeling Wayne’s sister would feel the same way.

      Like Liz—and KD and Dane, I believe—I no longer think DD has to have an erotic element. The lack of an erotic element would make the embarrassment harder to take, for my husband, but if it is truly punishment, why shouldn’t it be hard to take? If I do decide to spank Wayne in front of his sister eventually, I might take inspiration from the way Liz says she paddles Art. Maybe it would be weird to take my husband’s pants down in front of his sister, but Liz has given me the idea that a spanking can be sufficient without any nudity. Unlike Liz, however, I would probably be tempted to take Wayne over my knee if I spanked him in front of his sister…to emphasize the maternal aspect. After all, there is a maternal aspect to FLR in my mind. Why hide that? This has been a great discussion. Much to think about.
      Danielle

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    8. Hi Liz,
      "ZM, why do you think that erotic is mandatory for DD to be adult and consensual?
      Liz"

      I think this might have been a case of mistaken identity! It was Alan who said that "corporal punishment doesn’t need to be erotic to be effective but adult consensual spanking does need erotic overtones of some degree to continue as both adult and consensual" in response to me saying "I am not that convinced that the erotic element is necessary." So in response to your question, I don't think that erotic is necessary - though Alan does :-)

      Having said that, I personally find spanking as quite erotic, and the erotic element of it makes it more impactful for me.

      -ZM

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    9. One additional thing I would like to mention... Even though I find the concept of spanking and DD as very erotic, for me it is much more about the power exchange then the spanking itself. Consequently, I don't really get turned on during a punishment or if I know a punishment is imminent, even though when I am thinking about the whole thing at any other time, it is definitely a huge turn on. In the same way, I am not sure if my wife gets all that turned on while actually punishing me (I need to ask). I do know that she finds the whole thing a turn on, but I am not sure if that means she gets turned on while actually spanking me, or if it is more when thinking about it outside the situation.

      The reason I am making that distinction is because I am not really sure - having never experienced a witnessed spanking - just how important it would be for me who the witness was. If I had a sister, and if she were to witness a spanking, obviously nothing between my sister and I would be erotic in the least. Yet because I actually am more turned on by the embarrassment element of spanking than the painful part, it is possible that even though there would be no erotic feelings between my sister and I, I might still think the whole thing was pretty erotic when looking back upon it, just because of the level of embarrassment?

      And I expect the same thing generally would apply even in the case of either of the other people my wife and I have thought about either to know about it or to actually witness it. I don't have any particular attraction to either of them and I don't think they have any real attraction to me, yet somehow, if they were to know about this or witness one of our punishments, I think the whole thing would be pretty erotic to me, not because I have erotic feelings towards them, but because I am turned on by the power exchange, and them seeing it would greatly amplify the feelings.

      Or, for that matter, I still get turned on by the thought of being sent to the principal's office for a paddling (which unfortunately never happened), but I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with who the principal was.

      As Alan said above: "The topic of witnesses seems endlessly fascinating." That sure holds true for me!

      -ZM

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    10. ZM, the more I read about this subject, the more I see how complicated it is. The only time I want to think about spanking and this kind of discipline is when it appeals to my kink. Without the underlying sexuality of it, I’m not much interested. Whatever the scenario is — receiving, giving, witnessing or being witnessed — there’s a female involved some way, somehow, or there’s nothing there for me. However, I need not be involved with that female in any sexual way, and no need that we be sexually attracted to each other. So, I should therefore be fine with being spanked by my sister, me spanking her, or either of us witnessing the other being spanked. But that just isn’t the case. I can think of other women I know or have known who would also not be right. Some women I know would make a great witness, others not. I think the reason for that is the nature of the relationship that’s been established.

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    11. ZM, you and I are very alike on this issue. I am not turned on by the spanking itself, and definitely not in the moment. It's really about the power differential. Interestingly, a few weeks ago I went back and read some of the stories on the DWC site that first attracted me so much to DD, and it was interesting how many of them did have pronounced FLR element. While I always think of FLR as something we've dabbled in outside of or in addition to DD, it makes me wonder how much of the original obsession was tied to the FLR elements and not specifically to DD. But, that's not quite right either, because the FLR/power exchange elements don't do that much for me absent the whole dynamic of accountability, boundaries. Though, I wonder whether those are about the authenticity of the power exchange and not really about a desire for punishment? As Brett says, it's complicated stuff.

      I *have* asked Anne if spanking turns her on. What she has consistently said is that the spanking itself doesn't that much, but the exercise of power in ordering one and in making me disrobe, watching me comply with an order to get into position, etc. -- those DO turn her on. So, on her part I think it clearly is the power exchange that is the attraction.

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    12. This is definitely the turn-on for me, the power exchange. He is so much bigger and stronger, yet he obeys me (and only me). In some ways it is an expression of his love, so while I am usually in the moment irritated about the behavior that has triggered the punishment, I also love him for his obedience and am aroused by it. Anger, love, arousal ... it's intoxicating!
      Belle

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    13. I agree completely with Anne and Belle: it is the power exchange that turns me on. I have come to find spanking itself kind of erotic, but that's because it is so symbolic of the power exchange. Other forms of power exchange turn me on too, sometimes even more. That's why I like having a full FLR rather than just DD.
      Danielle

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  12. Hi Dan,
    As far as the topic goes, I can’t really think of any specific “DD-related experiences you may have had in which the offender just didn’t seem to realize how their behavior was impacting others or showed little interest in adjusting their behavior until someone impacted by it turned the tables and made sure the offender bore the consequences of their own actions,” though I think of many things that fit at least part of this statement.

    First off, I can think of countless non-DD-related situations, of course. But as far as DD goes, about the closest I can think of were the times I have recounted previously, where I was being much to sarcastic with my teenage step-son. The points I hit on were completely valid, and I thought I was just being funny, but in fact I was crushing his spirit. It was only when my wife punished me for it several times that I really understood the impact of my attitude and behavior. The same thing was true for when my wife went out with friends when we had rare opportunities for alone time, and I would have a bad attitude if she was gone for a long time. Again, it was only when she punished me a couple of times that I really understood that my attitude was sucking all of the joy out of her time with friends.

    Most other things that I am punished for are things that I am well aware of, like missing my weight targets during our weekly check-ins. This is a bit different because my wife is actually trying to help me avoid the consequences of my poor diet and lifestyle choices (heart attack, diabetes, stroke, premature death, etc.). DD serves several purposes for us, including improving communications and preventing the accumulation of aggravations, but one of the most key things that we use DD for is to help me achieve my own goals. And to do this, my wife provides much more immediate consequences to shorten the event horizon. If I know there will be consequences soon, that makes me much more likely to make good choices, since in many areas I lack sufficient self discipline to make necessary changes now to avoid very big things down the road; if I know that the bad things won’t happen for a long time, then I - at least subconsciously - think “I can do what I want now, and later I will have time to fix everything.” So my wife uses short term imposed consequences to help me avoid much worse long-term natural consequences.

    -ZM

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    1. I think those are great examples of your wife bringing home to you the consequences of acts that were doing serious harm without you really noticing it.

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  13. I agree with Dan about ZM's examples, and I especially like this quote: "It was only when my wife punished me for it several times that I really understood the impact of my attitude and behavior."

    That is definitely the case with Jimmy. It applies to minor annoyances, such as him leaving his underwear on the bathroom floor, up to him treating me really disrespectfully. He was quite clueless how upsetting his behavior was to me and how much it was damaging our marriage. Even when we separated, he saw me as the entire cause - "Oh, she's about to turn 30 and she's been with me since she was 19 and she has to go find herself." He said this to me and to others. And it was true, but it also was just part of the story. He had no idea how much his selfish, childish, sexist behavior led to our separation.

    I venture that many if not most if not virtually all spanked husbands have had these kind of blind spots, and my theory is supported by the lack of examples in response to this week's topic!

    For Jimmy, the bath brush has brought clarity. He is being punished for a specific misbehavior, and I make sure he knows exactly why he is over the arm of the couch. I'll even ask him the next morning, "So what did you get paddled for last night?" If he can't say, then I did not do my job well enough. But he almost always can tell me exactly what behavior needs to change. No more blind spot!
    Belle

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    1. >>>>>>>>>>>>"I venture that many if not most if not virtually all spanked husbands have had these kind of blind spots, and my theory is supported by the lack of examples in response to this week's topic!"<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

      Interesting. If true it must mean that men are just nicer than women. I think it's indisputable that men upset women. But I think it's just as indisputable that women upset men. So if men are doing it due to 'blindspots'...... which according to your assertion are a widespread male weakness, then they are doing these things unaware that they are upsetting their partners. So, if women DON'T have "blindspots" and they ALSO do things to upset their spouses, then they must be doing these things intentionally, right? And therefore, intentionally upsetting someone sure sounds meaner than doing it obliviously.

      Of course, maybe women also have blindspots and perhaps being able to see their own is one of them? ;-)

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  14. I know this is a little late, but I just had a thought: could "mansplaining" also be a kind of male revenge for "nagging"? Maybe men should eliminate "nagging" since complaining about it doesn't resonate well in our PC/woke society? Perhaps we should refer to it as "womansplaining"? You know, when no matter how you do something a woman keeps telling you you're doing it wrong ....not because what you're doing doesn't work, but merely because it's not how SHE does it? I mean, what guy here has never had THAT happen? LOL Our mistake is that we aren't clever enough to make nagging into something more hip, woke, and gender-bashing.

    Hmmmm, what do the guys here think?

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    1. Interesting, KD. I'm not sure I can add much to the topic already discussed. I guess mansplaining can cover a broader range of patronization, but the way it makes sense to me is a man explaining something to a woman that she is in a better position to understand than he is. He’s likely wrong or oversimplifying, but acts as if he must be right due to his intellectual superiority, and broader range of experience as a male of the species.

      A male, who actually believes this, is not likely to allow a woman to hold authority over him in a DD or FLR relationship, however, for husbands who were raised in a patriarchal society, and sometimes exhibit that arrogance and condescension carelessly, without really wanting to be that way, a wife in the role of disciplinarian is possible, and she has the means to correct the problem. That makes for a great power exchange, and I’m very attracted to a woman’s demonstration of her strength in that way.

      In a male HOH relationship, where the attraction is to the husband taking the wife in hand, a similar correction could be for nagging or other stereotypical female form of expression that we find annoying or damaging to the desired order of things.

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    2. I agree with you, Brett. That's well explained.
      Danielle

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  15. LOL, KD.

    I like what you said about “mansplaining” in the thread farther up: >>>Perhaps it's not so much a gender issue in what is being done, since a guy will do it to a guy, but a gender issue in how it is reacted to? (I'm glad you womansplained that so well. LOL)<<<

    I think that is an insightful observation. I can see why men might not see it as a gender issue, while we women perceive it as one.

    As to referring to “nagging” as “womansplaining”, I can see the justice of the term. We women probably do nag more than men do. As to not being “clever enough to make nagging into something more hip, woke, and gender-bashing,” it may not be hip or woke, but it is certainly gender-bashing, and always has been. The negative stereotype of the nagging housewife, or the sharp tongued shrew, has deep roots in our culture.

    But if you think about it, the reason we women have tended to nag is that nagging is an expression of inferior power. If a woman is unhappy about some aspect of her husband’s behavior, nagging is about all she can do to TRY to change that behaviour within a traditional patriarchal power structure. Before we had a FLR, I definitely nagged Wayne about certain things. I didn’t like how nagging made me feel, but I did it out of frustration. Now that I have the power to paddle his bum if he doesn’t listen the first couple of times I tell him something, I no longer nag.

    There is another aspect of communication between men and women that relates to gender differences, I think. Whether due to nature or nurture, I think we women tend to be better listeners than men. We tend to listen well when we converse with other women, we tend to listen to our husbands, and we expect our husbands to listen the way we do. I find that my husband sometimes gets so caught up in his own thoughts that he will make a show of listening, but he isn’t really listening. Sometimes I will tell him something that I have read or heard, and will appear to have listened, but a little while later he will tell me the very thing I already told him when he reads it himself. It’s actually kind of funny. Maybe that isn’t a gender issue. Maybe it’s just my husband. But I have talked to other women who have the same experience with the men in their lives. Often we women interpret men not listening to us the way we expect as disrespect for women. We suppose that men would listen to us better if we were men. But maybe men are just as bad at listening to other men as they are at listening to women. In any case, I love the attentive way my husband listens to me when he’s bent over with his pants down. LOL

    Danielle

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    1. Brett & Danielle: Each of your posts illustrate valid aspects of this very complicated and seemingly too broadly-defined issue. However, neither of you specifically the type of nagging I referred to. I agree with you Danielle, that a certain kind of nagging is indeed the last refuge of a frustrated partner without power, but I am talking about when a woman objects to what a guy is doing simply because it's not HER way. Such objection is on par with the arrogance aspect of what Brett mentions with true mansplaining where a guy is just assuming he knows more regardless of the competence of the person he is correcting. In fact, it's really the same.

      To your point, Danielle, people with power tend to use it. So in a male-dominated situation, a "nag" might end up ducked in a pond or made to wear a brank or scold's bridle.....like they did in the old days. And now a man will mansplain to exercise his belief that his way is right while a woman in a dominant position will exercise her power with criticism of how a male isn't doing anything right because they are, by mishap of gender, too a: immature, b: irresponsible, c: clueless, or d: all of the above, too incapable of doing it the way the woman thinks it should be done.

      My objection to "mansplaining" is the gender bias in the term. Both genders are capable of doing this and have done so for a long time. Let's just recognize that people are people and learn to deal with them without having to make that effort based in some exaggerated gender issue. Didacticism has been around a long time. There was no need to take one gender's use of it and call it one thing while ignoring the other gender's similar expression of the same flaw.

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