Saturday, October 5, 2019

Club Meeting 315 - Justice Delayed as Justice Denied

The greatest remedy for anger is delay. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.  I hope you all had a great week.

Mine was interesting in terms of personal behavior, with maybe some small progress on that front, though it didn’t start out that way.  I had a work-related social event on Monday that went later than anticipated and left me pretty worn out.  But, for the rest of the week I kind of got my shit together, successfully resisting temptation several times.  I can’t say that I suddenly feel rested and ready for whatever the weekend brings, but I do feel like instead of beating myself up about starting the week badly, I need to give myself some credit for showing some actual self-discipline the rest of the week. Though, it wasn’t like I woke up and independently decided to start acting better.  Instead, my body has started sending me some clear signals that I’m not a kid anymore.  As Waylon sang, “Ain’t living long like this; can’t live at all like this, can I baby?” So, where Anne hasn’t been able to fully rein me in via pain imposed on my ass, my body seems to be succeeding via chronic aches and pains in lots of other areas.  Well, I guess whatever works.


We had a good discussion last week regarding talking one’s way out of trouble.  On the surface, the responses seemingly covered the spectrum, from KD’s position that the justice of a spanking should always be subject to agreement in advance on one end to Alan’s “anytime, anywhere for any reason” rule on the other.  But, when you parse through all the positions, I’m not sure whether there is a stark disagreement when it comes to how things actually play out.  It seems like everyone loosely agrees that in “real” Domestic Discipline relationships—as opposed to something more akin to Femdom—there often is some discussion at some point about what is “punishable” or “spankable,” but the timing varies (in advance, or after a spanking), as does the Wives’ relative likelihood of being dissuaded.  Some excerpts:

KD: She confronted me on my behavior and her issue with it ( at one brief point with tears in her eyes) and I very politely....but with very convincing exasperation .....countered with what SHE had done to cause it. And? She said that I was right ...at least partially, and that perhaps we should just forget the punishment, but added that it seemed like it violated her purported authority to do so. I half agreed and we talked some more and I showed a willingness to admit to partial blame and accept punishment for THAT part.

Alan: Our anytime, anywhere for any reason rule is a practical solution to the fact that many men ( me) too often talk or try to talk their way out of a deserved spanking and at least some women are susceptible to this tactic because of an ingrained concern about "fairness." In practice, she has rarely spanked me without plenty of warnings that a behavior is "spankable," so the rule sounds much more draconian than it is -and it eliminates destructive arguments. It also builds trust and reinforces obedience. 

Al:  Of course, we can and probably should talk about the reason for my spanking, but the spanking is almost always going to happen regardless of that conversation. There are of course occasional exceptions due to genuine misunderstandings or exceptional circumstances where an appropriate explanation might negate the need for a spanking (just as Mom might let you off when she found out that you were late because you had a flat tire). That is not to say there is any sort of Oedipus complex present - or that we see our wives as "motherly" , but I think the concept of "maternal discipline orientation" - in contrast to "Mistress/slave relationship" - works for me in terms of understanding the blanket consent that I have granted to my wife in the matter of corporal discipline.

Then, perhaps the most profound comment of all, from ZM: In the end, it really depends on the situation. It would help if my wife were a mind reader!


Regardless of whether talking one’s way out works in getting out of a spanking, it appears that even for those who are closer to Alan’s “any reason” rule, it sometimes does work with respect to timing, i.e. while it may not prevent a spanking, it may delay one.  Let’s talk about that one a little more.

In noodling over the years about why some disciplinary relationships work in terms of actually deterring bad behaviors while other Wives (mine included) seem condemned to addressing the same behavior over and over again, it seems to me that four principles of effective deterrence emerge:

First, there must be certainty of detection.
Second, there must be certainty of punishment.
Third, punishment must be severe in proportion to the offense, i.e. the negative consequences of the behavior must substantially outweigh the benefits of the behavior.
Fourth, punishment should be immediate.

The first factor is often about self-reporting, and I’d give myself about a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10 on that one.  The second has been an ongoing problem but, as reported over the last few weeks, she has been making big strides in imposing discipline regularly despite my excuses.  In our household, the third requirement has never been a problem – she always spanks hard. 

The fourth is the requirement on which we have probably been the most lax.  My travel schedule often guarantees that punishments happen several days after the offense if that offense occurred while I was on the road.  But, even when she detects the offense, orders that it will be dealt with and reminds me it will be severe, the spanking often isn’t delivered for several days.  This has the impact of really breaking the chain between cause (bad behavior) and effect (punishment), because in the meantime my internal remorse has diminished and I’m just not thinking about the offense as much even if I am anxious about the upcoming punishment.  Also, as discussed last week, my track record of a delayed punishment becoming a undelivered punishment is pretty good, so the weak “immediacy” performance also diminishes the strength of the “certainty” factor in my mind.


I was thinking of this a lot earlier this week while reading a book on habit formation.  The author observed: 

Every habit produces multiple outcomes across time. Unfortunately, these outcomes are often misaligned. With our bad habits, the immediate outcome usually feels good, but the ultimate outcome feels bad. With good habits, it is the reverse: the immediate outcome is unenjoyable, but the ultimate outcome feels good. [T]he costs of your good habits are in the present. The costs of your bad habits are in the future. The brain’s tendency to prioritize the present moment means you can’t rely on good intentions.” (Clear, James. Atomic Habits (p. 189). Penguin Publishing Group.)

The author didn’t cite any research backing up the hypothesis that immediate gratification trumps future consequences, but it seems pretty commonsensical.  And, it certainly seems to work that way for me. I do think that if I knew that spankings that occurred in her presence (like lack of respect, disobedience, or undone chores) would earn a spanking right then, I’m betting those offenses would stop happening as often.  Even for offenses that happen when I’m on the road, I bet I would give it a little more thought I knew I was going to be spanked the minute I walked in the door after the trip (assuming self-reporting was happening reliably). 


After all, that's the way it happened in most households in the part of the country I grew up in.  Get a spanking at school - get a second at home that night.  Act up at church - get taken outside or to another room for a few quick swats.  Act up at a family picnic, get taken to the car for a spanking then taken back to the gathering with everyone knowing what just happened to you.


How about you? Do your punishments come soon after the crime?  Or, is there often a delay?  If so, how much time usually elapses between the offense and its consequences?  If there is a substantial delay, does that diminish the deterrent effect? Or, does the anticipation of a hard spanking actually increase its effectiveness?   


For the Wives in particular, does a substantial delay in the time it takes him to “pay the piper” have any impact on the severity of the punishment you ultimately dole out?



Does it lessen whatever satisfaction you might otherwise get from making him “pay up” after he has done something to make you angry?

I hope you all have a great weekend.

61 comments:

  1. My wife believes when a spanking is warranted it must be done immediately when possible. If we are out somewhere and there is no place to administer a proper spanking she has taken me to the car and had me lay across the back seat and whack me with her hairbrush 10 or 15 times then tell me when we get home I will receive a real spanking.

    I to feel a spanking should be done soon after the offense to be effective.

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  2. This is almost ideal,very close to my wife's philosophy and highly important if the impact of spanking on behavior is the priority, But sometimes "when we get home" doesn't work , ranging from guests to kids to just being exhausted and needing sleep. And some couples apparently ( and more important some disciplinary wives) prefer some delay to build anticipation or allow feelings to settle. Immediate punishment is the gold standard but like gold itself it can be a scarce community
    Alan

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    1. Refreshing! Thank you, Alan.

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    2. "ranging from guests to kids to just being exhausted and needing sleep." Been there, done that. Though, I can't say that with kids largely removed from the equation that things have changed that much. Of course, about the time empty-nesting became more real, my travel schedule went crazy.

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  3. This was one of the items we both agreed to when we forged our agreement. Punishment should be at the time of the offense or as near as possible. My belief stemmed from growing up. My Mom would deliver discipline at the time of the bad behavior. No 'wait till your Father gets home' in our house. So at home I am spanked at the time of the infraction. If we are away from home it is the same if at all possible. I have been punished at friends homes or wherever we are if possible and nude or at least bare bottom. Outdoors, in the garage, along the road or trail, even once in our boat. We both feel the discipline loses some of its effect if it is delayed. I know and realize for some it is impossible and I understand that, but having to wait is not the way we wish to go.

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    1. I don't remember many "wait 'til your father gets home" approaches in our community either. Most of the mothers seemed to be very comfortable taking things in hand.

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  4. "Justice delayed" is not "justice denied"! On the contrary, I feel that having L. be given advance notice that a disciplinary session awaits him is an effective way to make him reflect on his behavior. It certainly has the effect of making him more submissive (and ready to apologize) when the time has come for him to submit (and to bare his derrière) for what he needs and deserves. "Immediate retribution" is sometimes warranted, but "delayed" (and announced) punishment is best remembered...
    J.

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    1. Thanks for that perspective, J. As my post probably indicated, I see advantages to anticipation, but in the end I still would bet that shorter delays would drive the link between cause and effect home.

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    2. In "practice", I guess that L. gets an "immediate" spanking for the sort of (mis)behavior that aggravates me at the moment, whereas "delayed" sessions -which involve (and require) several "tools"- are reserved for the sort of misdeeds that demand special -and especially firm- attention. I find that the "waiting" time this involves is a very effective way to make him fully aware of why he can expect to get his "just reward" - and to thank me for it!
      J.

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    3. I got two "delayed" spankings (whippings, actually) - and two "immediate" spankings (one with the back of her hairbrush, and the other one with the wooden spoon) since J posted her comment... not to mention the outdoors birching she delivered this past Sunday...
      L.

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  5. Joe2 here,

    With kids, schedules and travel, almost all spankings have to be planned, sometimes it is hours but usually a day or more. I do have angst starting hours before the planned event; not impending doom, but butterflies. My wife has just started using corner time and once in the corner, I settle down. I don't know why corner time takes the butterflies away, but maybe it helps let me focus on "why I am there" rather than think about the future pain.

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    1. As talked about a few weeks ago, corner time has a similar effect on me -- it doesn't amp up any sense of anticipation or dread. I tend to get more calm and, after a while, bored.

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  6. Simply put, we theoretically love the idea of "at the time of the infraction" but in practice it's much more "what we can, when we can, and if the mood holds". It's no different than Robert Burns' sentiment on best laid plans.

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  7. As with the others , we have a similar situation. Spankings hardly ever occur at time of infraction. Dev will say “ we will discuss this later “. A few months ago I said something that really made her mad. I knew when I said it and I tried to fix it. Things were fine again. A couple days later all was great but she called me to the living room and simply said “ bring me the paddle. We need to go over something “ She was in a good mood too. When I returned all was ok until I got over her knee. She went into discipline mode and gave a hell of a paddling! After it was over all was good again. She says when she’s really angry she won’t ( and hasn’t ) give a spanking in fear of causing serious damage. JR

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    1. Thanks, JR. We had an incident recently when she spanked in a good mood, and I was in a good mood too. Honestly, the levity really detracted from the sense of penance. I don't mind her spanking in anger, and actually wish she would do that more often.

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  8. I always preferred the "ASAP method" meaning either as soon as possible, or, in cases where I know I'm angry and need to cool down a bit, as soon as practical. In the latter, corner time helped. I'm also for maintenance spankings .

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    1. While corner time doesn't do much for me, I do see how it could allow some cool down time for the wife, regardless of its effect on the husband.

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    2. Very wise, Mary, and I second the phrase 'as soon as practical' until you cool down enough to administer the proper and needed punishment. Here, we do not use corner time either before or after the spanking, but I have been put into spanking position and left for a good 10 to 15 minutes. Sometimes I can tell when she comes to start the spanking and sometimes not. What a shock that first solid swat is when you have no idea it is being delivered until it lands.

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  9. Hi Dan,
    You surely provide much to unpack here but well worth the effort to do so. Your discussion about discounting the cost of bad habits into the future really resonates with me. The pleasure from that third glass of cab too often outweighs any thought or concern about a possible spanking or other punishment tomorrow or next week or maybe never. This discounting costs forward is so ingrained for me that I don’t really focus on the reality of punishment until its imminent and certain – like sometimes until my pants are down and I am waiting in the corner. It just doesn’t become real until then. I am not saying this is a habitual response but one that happens often enough to make the point about habits very valid in my experience. Related are the notions that effective punishment must be immediate, certain and relatively severe to change behavior. These insights come I believe from a lot of serious research in a number of fields as well as common sense. Incentives and disincentives are powerful motivators and the more immediate, certain and (in the case of DD) severe the more they motivate. But applied to DD among consenting adults, some context is needed. From experience I believe that “on the spot” or immediate correction simply works best (and faster) to moderate behavior, particularly simple behaver like foul language, direct disobedience of an established rule or keeping track of time. But a spanking the next day or even next weekend can be almost as “immediate” in linking the behavior to the punishment and so relative immediacy is the goal. On the other hand if I throw an F in front of her and she waits to punish me for it until Halloween, it’s just not as effective. The same thing applies to certainty. 100 percent certainty that act A will produce punishment B is ideal but even just a good chance (say 50 -50 that that glass of wine gets paid for over her knee is (to me) a pretty good disincentive. Severity works the same way. For me almost every spanking from her is enough to make me wish very ardently that I hadn’t got into trouble. We have never had a problem about severity and apparently some wives systematically increase severity when spanking for repeated behaviors. She did a version of that early in our relationship and it does work in hard cases. Overall if one had to choose which to focus on among immediacy, certainty and severity. It would be certainty for me. Certainty that I will be punished for a behavior has been responsible for most of my growth in our relationship. So thanks for the thoughtful ideas. They really provide a framework for successful DD
    Alan

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    1. Hi Alan. Great stuff. I agree that for me, certainty or lack thereof probably has the biggest influence on behavior. But, for us in the past certainty has been closely tied to immediacy. The longer the gap between the offense and its consequences, the more likely that I get off the hook entirely as a result of all the things you referred to in your first comment -- kids, guests, conflicting social obligations, being too tired, etc. A few of those things come up over a few days, and the chances of "getting away with it" goes up exponentially with each new delay.

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  10. "goes up exponentially with each new delay<" It does but even that 50 -50 chance gives pause. Drop beneath that level of probability/certainty and its a crap shoot and even if punishment does occur the long term discipline effect is eroded. It's how lucky do you feel versus is this worth getting a spanking for.One other thing about consistency that goes beyond the obvious: her consistency on a given behavior or any behavior for that matter underscore how important it is to her that a behavior ( or attitude) be changed/modified. I find that makes a big difference to me if she is adamant about it and seems very committed to changing that behavior. Her emotional investment in discipline has a huge impact on me and how I behave.
    Alan

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    1. Hi Alan. I can definitely see how some expression on her part that she is very committed to changing a particular behavior could make a huge difference

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  11. This is Arthur. Our circumstances are a bit different in that most of my paddlings are preventative: I get it every Monday morning to remind me not to be arrogant at work (and at home, but that is less of an issue) during the week. My behavior HAS changed quite significantly, but neither she nor I expect my arrogance to disappear completely. It is a personality trait.
    Sometimes on Monday mornings she will being up something that happened during the week, so that is a delayed response. And sometimes there will be separate punishments that may be delayed. I do find that these punishments that follow behavior are more effective the more immediate they are. Similarly, the reminder punishments on Monday morning are more effective Monday than they are Friday. So the proximity of the punishment is important.
    My wife is incredibly consistent and quite severe, so those two aspects are not an issue.
    I am not particularly good at self-reporting because I am not always aware that I have acted arrogantly. But I do discuss my work with her and often she will point out arrogant behavior that I missed. We then work around children to deal with it. Often the next morning after they all get on their school buses.
    Arthur

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    1. Arrogance at work is definitely a big problem for me, but not one she seems very committed to changing or even tracking.

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    2. Arrogance, especially at work, is what I asked her to track and help change, though I admit she has done a better (and more painful) job than I first expected!
      Arthur

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  12. I will just say this: I enjoy our Monday mornings. My big strong husband bent over the desk, grunting and groaning as he gets the paddle, promising to be less arrogant and more humble. It works, too.
    In regard to the question, when there is an issue in addition to our Monday morning reminders, we often have to delay it because of children. With that immediacy lacking, I do tend to swing harder and longer to make up for not having instant consequences. I can usually tell by Art's tone when the point is made. Then he can be his alpha self again, but with some humility!
    You can call me "Liz"

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    1. Hi Liz. Thanks for joining in. My wife has said several times that she too enjoys making me bend over and take a paddling, and she plainly sees the grunting and groaning as an indication she is getting her point across.

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    2. Hi Liz, if Art has to be paddled for being arrogant each Monday morning, can it really be said that "it works too" ?

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    3. That depends on your goal. For us (and in my childhood experience at home and school), the goal is to lessen certain behavior. With males especially, completely eliminating behaviors often seems unrealistic. That is why it is called behavior "modification." For Art, these are reminders for him to watch his tongue, especially with colleagues. But to have him never be sarcastic? Not going to happen.
      Liz

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    4. The other point is that on most Monday mornings,he is not being paddled for being arrogant. He is being paddled so he will not be arrogant.

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    5. That's a good distinction. I used to have a problem with "preventative" spankings, as I felt like it was punishing someone for something they haven't even done. But, I've come around on that where there is a well-established pattern of behavior that needs to be nipped in the bud.

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    6. Well fair enough. It all sounds like very hard work. Art must be sore all week long. My wife and I can hardly find the time for applying the cane to me for things I have done, let alone things I have yet to do.

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  13. Hi Dan,
    For us, punishments almost never come soon after the “crime,” because it requires that we be alone, not tired, and caught up on “couple time.” If we are not alone, it is a non-starter since we live in an apartment in Europe; it is not like we can retreat to our bedroom and have the kids in a far off family room with the TV blasting. Also, life often leaves us feeling tired, so it is easier to put it off. And then, since we get so little time alone (other than in our bedroom at night) when we do actually find ourselves alone it is often more desirable to sit and talk and enjoy the rare moment than it would be to catch up on punishment. So in practice, punishments are almost always delayed, pretty much never by choice, and consequently, a good share of punishments never happen.

    That is not to say that delays cannot work. But for it to work for us there must be some certainty that the punishment is going to happen, and it needs to be close enough to worry about. For me, the whole thing hinges on time: that there be a SET time that the punishment WILL happen, and that time must not be too far in the future.

    For example, if we are alone in the house for multiple days, if we were out and she said “when we get home you are going to get it!” that would be highly effective, because I know that we have the opportunity so it will happen, and happen soon. Coincidentally, she has never really done this though she has called me at work when I was working in an office, and punished me when I came home.

    Or, if we knew we were going to be alone for the weekend, she could announce a punishment in the middle of the week. She could amplify the anticipation greatly be mentioning it every little bit, so it stayed front and center in my mind, or even worse by not telling me just what I was going to be punished for, which would pretty much guarantee my mind would be mulling it over continuously in the ensuing days.

    What DOESN’T work is if she says “soon you are going to be punished.” In theory the ambiguity SHOULD cause even more anxiety, but past experience says the punishment won’t even happen. It is exactly like the case where you run into an old friend. If you say “let’s have coffee some time” it seldom happens, but if you say “let’s meet for lunch Tuesday at 12 at Red Robin” it will almost certainly happen. In the same way, if a time for a punishment is set, it will probably happen. Even if something comes up, the fact that the time was set before makes it more likely to be re-scheduled than forgotten.

    Also, the time can’t be far in the future, or I will not think about it. In fact, one of the key reasons we use DD is to shorten the event horizon and make consequences more immediate. I know that if I diet and go to the gym, I will eventually lose weight and be happier and healthier, but that is too far in the future. If instead I know that if I eat too much ice cream, I am going to be paddled tonight, well that is another story!

    Now regarding feelings… If she has few feelings about something, then if the punishment doesn’t happen on the spot it probably won’t happen at all. But if she does have strong feelings, I have mentioned before her amazing ability to “put those feelings in a box and put them on the shelf.” She then can be perfectly normal until the punishment is to happen, and she then takes the box off the shelf and opens it and all the feelings are right back how they were. As for me it works about the same. If I am being punished for something that I feel really bad about, the feelings can come rushing back in a flood. Or if I am being punished not for a specific action, but rather for ongoing things like attitude, it can all seem pretty current and relevant since probably the attitude didn’t stop when she said I was going to be punished. If however, it is for a specific action that neither of us feel strongly about, then most likely the punishment will never happen, or if it does, it will feel more like a training exercise.

    -ZM

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    1. "If I am being punished for something that I feel really bad about, the feelings can come rushing back in a flood." Finally, something on which you and I differ. I can feel very remorseful about some personal failing and be craving accountability for it, but those feelings have a very short half-life.

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    2. Hahahaha. True, we seem to be wired quite a bit alike. I do tend to carry around guilt and never let it go. That is probably one thing that attracts me to DD, because I can feel like the penalty has been paid and I can stop feeling guilty about that particular thing, whatever it might be. On the other hand, I usually think I am right, so probably I don't feel guilty as often as I really should.

      -ZM

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    3. I also usually think that I am right, and particularly have difficulty recognizing an excess of arrogance and a lack of humility. But when she is paddling my behind, and she says don't you think it was arrogant when you said such and such to so-and-so? Then I suddenly gain new clarity!
      Arthur

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    4. That "new clarity" fascinates me, both when it happens during a spanking and after -especially when the spanking is being administered "under protest". The feeling usually is "yes now I see her point" or "how was I dense enough to miss that? But I do wonder if the spanking is bringing clarity or I am just adjusting to the reality that she is going to keep blistering my ass until I do see "the light". Maybe its all just an illusion brought on by the paddle ( or in my case, usually the sauna brush). But in the end it results in a contrite husband and a satisfied wife, so its something of a moot question.
      Alan

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    5. I've experienced the "new clarity," but I think a spanking at most accelerates the process. We have had several arguments where I was 100% sure I was right in the heat of the moment, then at some point after things settled down I would either see that I was wrong or at least see her side of it. So, I don't think the change is an illusion brought on by the paddle, but the paddle may make me "see the light" a bit faster.

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    6. I too have experienced this "new clarity." I have been so surprised that DD has been able to really change the way I think about something. For me, I think it has less to do with the pain, and more to do with her "speaking to me" though my deepest fantasy. If she just says something, I might not really take it all that seriously or maybe wouldn't even really pay attention. However, anything that happens in the context of DD is replayed again and again in my mind, and somehow that seems to affect very positive changes, even in long-established thought patterns.

      -ZM

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    7. "speaking to me through my deepest fantasy" -- I like that.

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  14. I think my alpha personality keeps me in the dark about my arrogance, which I think of as leadership. My wife's paddle makes me listen to her point. If she just said it to me, I probably would not listen. But while she is administering pain to my rear, I have no choice but to focus on the question she is asking. The key is: I don't just give the right answer to get her to stop. She actually does convince me she is right and that I have overlooked arrogant behavior and need this "dose of humility."
    This revelation does not happen that often, but when it does it is quite extraordinary.
    Arthur

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    1. My husband is a great man who can be a stubborn oaf. The paddle breaks down stubbornness better than anything.
      Liz

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    2. Arrogance and stubbornness -- sounds like Arthur and I have much in common.

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    3. Also, mistaking arrogance for leadership. I have that one too, in spades.

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  15. I must say that my confidence in my opinion and judgment has gotten me a long way in the business world, and I will never give that up. Sometimes that comes off as arrogance when it really is not. What my wife and I consider to be arrogant is when I get sarcastic and condescending about the opinions of others. This tends to happen at work in long meetings that ramble on even though what we need to do is painfully clear. I really dislike these unnecessary discussions and will eventually cut them off with a stinging comment or two. That lack of patience results in a stinging butt for me!
    Since most of my arrogance appears at work, our DD sort of simulates that environment. I am fully dressed for work. I bend over the large desk where I sometimes work at home. I usually am paddled right before I go to work. And the school-style paddle is likely what would be used if there was corporal punishment in a work environment. Plus the comments my wife makes during the paddling are usually about my work behavior. It's a scenario that works well for me.
    In response to a comment above, I am not constantly sore from gettling paddled every Monday morning. Any marks or soreness is typically gone by Wednesday.
    Arthur

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    1. Hi Arthur,
      I think you are right on about the difference between confidence and arrogance. Confidence has more to do being sure of your abilities and your knowledge, and is pretty much always a good thing. The strongest confidence is often shown through humility rather than bravado. Arrogance, on the other hand, is almost always either rooted in excessive self-pride and looking down upon others, and is almost always bad. I would say always bad, but occasionally arrogance leads us to do something that we probably shouldn't because it is beyond our abilities, but then somehow we rise to the occasion and do what we might have thought impossible.

      BTW, I totally agree about long meetings. I think that in some cases, the pain of a paddling might be preferred to the pain of sitting through a meeting that drags on and on with no end in sight.

      -ZM

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    2. I agree there is a difference between confidence and arrogance. And, one reason meetings can go long is everyone dancing around issues and using the most deferential, and circuitous language possible, in order to avoid coming off as arrogant and to avoid any possibility of giving offense to anyone. Confidence and straight talk actually facilitate genuine conversations, if everyone gets their ego out of the way.

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  16. In a meeting Thursday I asked a colleague in a sort of disgusted tone, "Was that the third time you said that today?" He didn't say a word the rest of the meeting.
    As mentioned by ZM, it was worth the paddling I got for it yesterday morning!
    Arthur

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    1. Let's face it, sometimes we're being arrogant or rude, but sometimes people richly deserve it.

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  17. With kids in the home, my punishments are often delayed. My wife has decreed that there will be no sexual intercourse during a punishment delay, so I have an incentive to have it happen sooner rather than later ... and it never is forgotten!
    Anton

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  18. Some comments from Liz about delay: I think with children it is especially important for consequences to follow misbehavior as quickly as possible. But this is less important with adults who have higher level reasoning. I believe a delayed response can be very effective, and I have found this to be so with Arthur. But it can cause issues, too.
    DD is not a major part of our lives, and I don't often paddle him between our Monday morning sessions. But we did on Friday, as Art has reported. Most evenings he wants to talk about work, and as the wife of an alpha it is my role to listen and support. The co-worker he spoke to that day in a rude manner is someone he has a history with. One of the things we have discussed is whether he would make the same comment if his boss was in the room. If not then the comment was likely inappropriate. He volunteered Thursday that he would not have been so sarcastic if his boss was present.
    "Then I guess we should address this issue," I said.
    He nodded.
    "Let's do it tomorrow morning so you don't compound the issue at work tomorrow."
    That is where I realized one concern about delay. The problem could repeat itself before the punishment. That could create a more severe problem and likely would warrant more severe punishment.
    Friday morning whike being paddled Art promised to lay off that particular co-worker, though he also told me after standing back up that the expression on the co-worker's face was worth what I had just given him. Fair enough.
    Liz

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    1. Hi Liz,
      Art's reaction after his paddling provides a good example of the difference between punishment and discipline. Discipline uses punishment to modify behavior but punishment separated from some disciplinary objective becomes retribution for some behavior even if no behavior change is expected or achieved. Art said as much when he " also told me after standing back up that the expression on the co-worker's face was worth what I had just given him". To me that is saying I did it,was punished for it, and would do it again.I believe that in many DD relationships this happens often: a punishment is doled out without much expectation of modifying the behavior.This also explains to some of our skeptics who ask the point of multiple spankings for the same behavior. Why spank if it isn't modifying the behavior? I think the answer is, as you demonstrate here, that punishment alone can be a very legitimate goal.
      Alan

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    2. Hi Liz. Sorry for the delayed response. My travel schedule was crazy this week and kept me from getting to these latest comments. I do agree that adults can link remote consequences to an offense better than children, though I think it still has its limits. As Alan said, there are some behaviors that probably can be modified if the consequences are almost instantaneous, even if not severe. It's almost like a quick, very unpleasant reminder to get your act together before things get worse.

      As I blogged about at the time and have referred to a couple of times since, I had an incident a year or so ago in which I went off on a work associate in a situation in which I kind of misinterpreted something he said. And, similar to the incident you and Arthur refer to, this was someone I had a history with, which made it all too easy to misinterpret and put the worst spin on something he said. My wife's punishment for that one was, in many ways, worse than a spanking. She made me apologize. That was very hard for me to do, particularly given that there WAS a history there.

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    3. BTW, KD's website has a great story about getting punished over someone with whom the husband has a history, then being punished BY that person. http://mattmansfigures.homestead.com/XPride.html

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    4. Our DD relationship is just between us, so I would not ask Arthur to apologize to a co-worker, though there are times when I think he should. He did recently apologize to one of our children for a snarky comment he made, but my paddle didn't make him do it. Interesting that with us there seems to be a line between how he acts toward another, which I do paddle him for, and what he says to that person about his behavior, which he decides.
      Liz

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  19. But Alan, I did agree to modify my behavior toward this colleague in the future, so it wasn't just punishment. If I had refused to do that, I am sure that the paddling would have continued and I would have been accused of arrogance in the moment ... and Liz can be quite forceful about stubbornness/arrogance during punishment. I guess she did concede to some arrogance when I said the expression on the colleague's face was worth the punishment, but she often says that future improvements are more important than past transgressions.
    Arthur

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  20. Arthur,
    You are making a nuanced but valid point.Another way I could put my point is to use a personal example. These days, most of my spankings come after misbehavior at social events ( including family), violating my alcohol limits or temper/language. If I stood back up after a spanking for any of these and said the bad behavior was worth the spanking , my wife would probably conclude the spanking did not "get through" and one way or another I would receive additional punishment ( plus a unhappy wife)But I am not saying her way is the only way to do it or that behavior change is the only legitimate reason to spank. Sometimes plain old retribution is reason enough as in "you do the crime, you do the time".
    Alan

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  21. The few times that I have been punished whilst she has still been angry have been the most memorable and most effective. That is not to say that the (many) other times have not hurt or been severe but there is something about the naked emotion applied via the strap whilst the offense is still (virtually) ringing in ours ears that make those times so very real.

    We have discussed, she gets it but still most punishments are delayed (for various reasons). It is fair to say however that there is always a certain frisson in the air when we both know that a punishment has been 'decreed' and will be carried out at a time of her choosing.

    TB

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    1. HI TB. This has happened so few times in our DD relationship, but I have no doubt that spankings done with some anger have more power.

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