Club Meeting 315 - Justice Delayed as Justice Denied

The greatest remedy for anger is delay. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.  I hope you all had a great week.

Mine was interesting in terms of personal behavior, with maybe some small progress on that front, though it didn’t start out that way.  I had a work-related social event on Monday that went later than anticipated and left me pretty worn out.  But, for the rest of the week I kind of got my shit together, successfully resisting temptation several times.  I can’t say that I suddenly feel rested and ready for whatever the weekend brings, but I do feel like instead of beating myself up about starting the week badly, I need to give myself some credit for showing some actual self-discipline the rest of the week. Though, it wasn’t like I woke up and independently decided to start acting better.  Instead, my body has started sending me some clear signals that I’m not a kid anymore.  As Waylon sang, “Ain’t living long like this; can’t live at all like this, can I baby?” So, where Anne hasn’t been able to fully rein me in via pain imposed on my ass, my body seems to be succeeding via chronic aches and pains in lots of other areas.  Well, I guess whatever works.

We had a good discussion last week regarding talking one’s way out of trouble.  On the surface, the responses seemingly covered the spectrum, from KD’s position that the justice of a spanking should always be subject to agreement in advance on one end to Alan’s “anytime, anywhere for any reason” rule on the other.  But, when you parse through all the positions, I’m not sure whether there is a stark disagreement when it comes to how things actually play out.  It seems like everyone loosely agrees that in “real” Domestic Discipline relationships—as opposed to something more akin to Femdom—there often is some discussion at some point about what is “punishable” or “spankable,” but the timing varies (in advance, or after a spanking), as does the Wives’ relative likelihood of being dissuaded.  Some excerpts:

KD: She confronted me on my behavior and her issue with it ( at one brief point with tears in her eyes) and I very politely....but with very convincing exasperation .....countered with what SHE had done to cause it. And? She said that I was right ...at least partially, and that perhaps we should just forget the punishment, but added that it seemed like it violated her purported authority to do so. I half agreed and we talked some more and I showed a willingness to admit to partial blame and accept punishment for THAT part.

Alan: Our anytime, anywhere for any reason rule is a practical solution to the fact that many men ( me) too often talk or try to talk their way out of a deserved spanking and at least some women are susceptible to this tactic because of an ingrained concern about "fairness." In practice, she has rarely spanked me without plenty of warnings that a behavior is "spankable," so the rule sounds much more draconian than it is -and it eliminates destructive arguments. It also builds trust and reinforces obedience. 

Al:  Of course, we can and probably should talk about the reason for my spanking, but the spanking is almost always going to happen regardless of that conversation. There are of course occasional exceptions due to genuine misunderstandings or exceptional circumstances where an appropriate explanation might negate the need for a spanking (just as Mom might let you off when she found out that you were late because you had a flat tire). That is not to say there is any sort of Oedipus complex present - or that we see our wives as "motherly" , but I think the concept of "maternal discipline orientation" - in contrast to "Mistress/slave relationship" - works for me in terms of understanding the blanket consent that I have granted to my wife in the matter of corporal discipline.

Then, perhaps the most profound comment of all, from ZM: In the end, it really depends on the situation. It would help if my wife were a mind reader!

Regardless of whether talking one’s way out works in getting out of a spanking, it appears that even for those who are closer to Alan’s “any reason” rule, it sometimes does work with respect to timing, i.e. while it may not prevent a spanking, it may delay one.  Let’s talk about that one a little more.

In noodling over the years about why some disciplinary relationships work in terms of actually deterring bad behaviors while other Wives (mine included) seem condemned to addressing the same behavior over and over again, it seems to me that four principles of effective deterrence emerge:

First, there must be certainty of detection.

Second, there must be certainty of punishment.

Third, punishment must be severe in proportion to the offense, i.e. the negative consequences of the behavior must substantially outweigh the benefits of the behavior.

Fourth, punishment should be immediate.

The first factor is often about self-reporting, and I’d give myself about a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10 on that one.  The second has been an ongoing problem but, as reported over the last few weeks, she has been making big strides in imposing discipline regularly despite my excuses.  In our household, the third requirement has never been a problem – she always spanks hard. 

The fourth is the requirement on which we have probably been the most lax.  My travel schedule often guarantees that punishments happen several days after the offense if that offense occurred while I was on the road.  But, even when she detects the offense, orders that it will be dealt with and reminds me it will be severe, the spanking often isn’t delivered for several days.  This has the impact of really breaking the chain between cause (bad behavior) and effect (punishment), because in the meantime my internal remorse has diminished and I’m just not thinking about the offense as much even if I am anxious about the upcoming punishment.  Also, as discussed last week, my track record of a delayed punishment becoming a undelivered punishment is pretty good, so the weak “immediacy” performance also diminishes the strength of the “certainty” factor in my mind.

I was thinking of this a lot earlier this week while reading a book on habit formation.  The author observed: 

“Every habit produces multiple outcomes across time. Unfortunately, these outcomes are often misaligned. With our bad habits, the immediate outcome usually feels good, but the ultimate outcome feels bad. With good habits, it is the reverse: the immediate outcome is unenjoyable, but the ultimate outcome feels good. [T]he costs of your good habits are in the present. The costs of your bad habits are in the future. The brain’s tendency to prioritize the present moment means you can’t rely on good intentions.” (Clear, James. Atomic Habits (p. 189). Penguin Publishing Group.)

The author didn’t cite any research backing up the hypothesis that immediate gratification trumps future consequences, but it seems pretty commonsensical.  And, it certainly seems to work that way for me. I do think that if I knew that spankings that occurred in her presence (like lack of respect, disobedience, or undone chores) would earn a spanking right then, I’m betting those offenses would stop happening as often.  Even for offenses that happen when I’m on the road, I bet I would give it a little more thought I knew I was going to be spanked the minute I walked in the door after the trip (assuming self-reporting was happening reliably). 

After all, that's the way it happened in most households in the part of the country I grew up in.  Get a spanking at school - get a second at home that night.  Act up at church - get taken outside or to another room for a few quick swats.  Act up at a family picnic, get taken to the car for a spanking then taken back to the gathering with everyone knowing what just happened to you.

How about you? Do your punishments come soon after the crime?  Or, is there often a delay?  If so, how much time usually elapses between the offense and its consequences?  If there is a substantial delay, does that diminish the deterrent effect? Or, does the anticipation of a hard spanking actually increase its effectiveness?   

For the Wives in particular, does a substantial delay in the time it takes him to “pay the piper” have any impact on the severity of the punishment you ultimately dole out?

Does it lessen whatever satisfaction you might otherwise get from making him “pay up” after he has done something to make you angry?

I hope you all have a great weekend.