Saturday, October 26, 2019

The Club Meeting 317 - Why Does He Want This?


I hid all the things I was feeling-- and indeed I did not know what they were, except that all the peace of that autumnal journey was gone.” ― C.S. Lewis

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.  I hope you all had a great week.

Before we begin, can I say how much I love Halloween season? How do you not like a holiday that's all about naughtiness and misbehavior?  No other holiday seems to lend itself so easily to adult themes.

   
The discussion last week really didn’t seem to take off, did it?  Some topics are like that, and I admit “determination” might have been a little nebulous.  To the point that I jumped on one comment as “not on topic,” when in retrospect it basically was.  I should have read it more closely, so bad on me.  We did get into some interesting discussions about workplace etiquette, putting up with workplace douchebags, and whether our wives should spank us for showing too little patience for said douchebags or too much.  While I didn’t think about the latter much at the time, it is kind of an interesting question, isn’t it?  I’ve always thought about punishment for workplace attitude issues from the perspective of someone who displays too much attitude. But, what if the husband lets himself get walked over and stepped on at work? Could a Disciplinary Wife spank some backbone into him?  Perhaps a topic for another time.

But, while it didn’t seem to spark a lot of interest, it did generate this question from “Belle”?

Why would a successful, confident man want that kind of treatment? Please make that a topic! I am the estranged wife of an alpha male and we are considering reuniting. He has asked me for domestic discipline as you describe if we do get back together. He says he needs it but can't explain why. I am baffled and looking for answers, particularly from strong males like Dan and some others on this blog. I understand that dominatrixes say much of their clientele is powerful men looking for relief from always being "on." But this is far different, an alpha male who wants his wife to treat him like a naughty child. Please, someone, help me understand the psychology of this and what I would be getting myself into. I have been searching the internet and most males craving punishment are submissives. Here there are some who are not, and I hope to hear from them. A topic for next week?

A confused wife, "Belle"


I’m sure many—maybe most—Disciplinary Wives shared Belle’s confusion at one time.  Hell, they're probably still confused and curious after years of giving him what he says he wants but never quite understanding why he wants it.  As I’ve reported a couple of times before, my wife seems to have had a mini-epiphany a year or so ago, after way more than a decade in this lifestyle.  She read a book called The Hesitant Mistress—for the second time—and this time something clicked.  She doesn’t really know why.  She told me that even though I told her for years that I really wanted this, part of her had a hard time believing it, because why would anyone want something like that?? Somehow, the book helped her believe that, for whatever reason, I really do want it.  I don’t know if there was a particular line or paragraph that led to her epiphany, but here is one that seems “true” to me in its description of why some men who don’t see themselves as “submissives” still crave discipline (though, ironically it appears in a section characterizing the “submissive” male):

“He wants to be the best man he can be, and that means overcoming his faults. He hates that he cuts corners and procrastinates. He craves correction, even as he hates needing it. He doesn’t want to slack off when no one’s looking. He wants your high standards, your tough love. He wants you to accept nothing less than his best effort. The submissive man will accept guidance only if he knows it’s good for him. He is not a doormat, someone too helpless to protest as others walk all over him. He has the right to complain, to question, to call a halt to any situation he disagrees with. Submission is an escape from the ordinary, not a personality trait.”

So, why did this otherwise “Alpha” male come to be attracted to Domestic Discipline and, increasingly, Female Led Relationships?  Honestly, anything I say about it is, at best, a guess.  And, I also seem to be atypical.  So, Belle, you should take everything I say with a big grain of salt.   

When I say I am atypical, what I mean is I seem to be an outlier in that I didn’t have an early fascination with spanking, while the vast majority of men interested in Domestic Discipline seem to have come to it through an earlier interest in spanking.  Nope, no strict aunt or hot step-mom fantasies that I recall. 

I don’t know, but suspect, that for those men who did have an early interest in spanking that now expresses itself mainly in the Domestic Discipline context, there are two intertwined but distinct personality traits going on: (1) an early and fetish-like interest in spanking; and (2) a “Type-A” personality with somewhat abnormally high proclivities for taking responsibility, being driven to perform, etc.  Either of those tendencies can exist independently but, when you combine the two you get a man who starts off interested in spanking in general, then at some point it narrows to an interest in being spanked as part of being held accountable or driving higher performance.  
In the end, it's not either-or.  For me, and I suspect for some men for whom the need expresses itself as a need for discipline with spanking as the preferred tool but not an end in itself, the need for discipline and accountability is stronger than the sexual component that underlies much of the spanking interest. 

If you adjust that mix a bit, maybe you get someone whose interest expresses itself as a desire to experience more intense, and more sexualized Dominance/submission. Perhaps a Female Led Relationship represents something in between. We are complicated creatures with complex inputs and outputs. 


That’s the best I can really do, while acknowledging that I somehow leapfrogged over the pre-existing spanking interest and went right to an overwhelming desire to be held accountable after discovering the Disciplinary Wives Club website.  Now, I obviously had enough pre-existing interest in spanking to be searching for spanking-themed material on-line, but it really was just kind of a diversion.  After I discovered DD, however. it became an obsession.  So, while spanking and discipline/accountability are intertwined for me, it seems to be the latter that really drives my overall need.

So, why do I have this need for discipline even though I don’t consider myself to be submissive and, in fact, am off the scale anti-authoritarian?  I think it is about both background and balance.  When I put myself on my own psychiatrist couch, I suspect (but don’t really know), that it has something to do with being wired very Type-A with all the need for achievement and performance that comes along with that, while growing up in an environment with no rules or boundaries. So, I had high energy and high achievement needs, but it had no direction and was just kind of energy popping all over the place. 
   

Also, since I had no rules to keep me in line, doing so was all on me.  Not that I did impose boundaries on myself. I tended to do a lot to get in trouble, but always managed to get myself out of it, often by the skin of my teeth. That is a lot of responsibility to have at a young age, and I think now part of me craves having someone with the authority to lay down boundaries because I never had them growing up.  So, why do I want those boundaries from my wife, yet I actively resist authority at work? Well, I grew up with a very, very Alpha dad who was even more anti-authoritarian than I am today and absorbed big parts of that personality.  Carrying that over to work, it's not that I don't want to give into authority.  In fact, part of me does have a twisted desire to have someone at work who is strong enough and powerful enough to put me in my place and keep me in line. It just isn't something I really can pull off, perhaps because I haven't really worked under someone strong enough to do it..

Also, I just think that extending discipline to other areas of my life--work, fitness, meditation and Zen-like spiritual discipline, etc.--will make me stronger and help me reach higher levels of performance, productivity and mental discipline. And, finally, letting go of control is a big thing for me, with both visceral and conceptual components.


That’s the best I can do, and it’s probably not all that enlightening.  Fortunately, we addressed a topic along these lines back in 2016, and ZM provided some more structured speculation around why he wants this.  His thinking may be more typical, since he did begin with an early interest in spanking:

"Why do I need or want this?  I'm really not sure... 
  • Maybe I need more clear boundaries, so life feels orderly and not out of control?  
    • I didn't have any boundaries while growing up. Could it be that? 
    • Maybe I just need the reassurance and orderliness of actions having consequences for the world to make sense? Of course they do, but it is not always as clear as "if this, then that...? 
  • Maybe I want or need to change faster to become who I want to be and do what I want to do? 
    • I am good, but I have huge dreams so I need to become ever better to achieve my goals. 
    • Sometimes consequences are too long-term to change behavior effectively. For example, I know that if I eat less, I will lose weight, look better, be healthier, and live longer. But because these are all long term effects, it can be very hard to stay on a diet since I don't see immediate results. 
  • Maybe I lack sufficient self-control, or I live too much in the moment? But for me to achieve my long term goals, I need short-term consequences to effect long-term change. 
  • Maybe I sometimes need the closure of having paid for my transgressions? 
    • Even if others forgive me, sometimes it is hard to forgive myself, and guilt accumulate 
    • There are few situations in life where wrongs are truly paid for (like speeding tickets) 
    • Sometimes I just need to have a clean slate. 
  • Maybe I get tired of being in charge, and need to be under someone else's control for a while
    • It is lonely at the top, with everyone looking to me for answers all the time. 
    • Maybe even though others look up to me, I know I am not quite as great as they think? 
    • Or maybe I bully others sometimes, and need to feel what it is like to be bossed around? 
    • Either way, making difficult decisions is tiring. It can be a relief to have all decisions out of my hands, even if only for a time.
It could be any, all, or none of these reasons.  I'm not sure, but it doesn't really matter, because I do know that I crave "real" discipline, punishment, and control, that which most people would rather avoid. This need for control and discipline is a perpetual enigma which forever lives in the never-never land between fantasy and reality. 

So, sorry Belle, that is about the best I can do.  How about the rest of you? For the men who do see themselves as Alphas, Type-As . . . whatever label seems to fit . . .why do you want to dominate in some contexts but not in others?  Why do you resist authority in some contexts but crave it in others? For the wives, have you been confused by your husband’s DD and FLR desires?  Do you have some insight on what makes him tick on that front? How have you accommodated your doubts and his desires?

Have a great week.

P.S.: Some spanking drawings for Belle to illustrate positions that might work with belt and bath brush.  






161 comments:

  1. I know the basic question for this week is WHY I wanted and requested a FLR with domestic corporal punishments. I guess my answer would be I didn't know or realize I wanted it until I experienced it. As a child, my folks raised all of us with accountability for our wrongdoings, and spanking was the normal method in that era. I did have a strong willed Aunt that delivered my last childhood spanking at age 16. Put that factor on the back burner for a bit. I married and held a stressful,job with a good deal of responsibility. The vanilla marriage was like many, I assume, and we did have disagreements, which were seldom actually resolved. As that marriage drifted apart for other reasons and I found myself looking for an outlet that was not considered cheating. I discovered adult spanking with pro Dommes. Now that spanking from my Aunt came back into this decision. Pro Dommes did not allow sex as part of the sessions, you just got spanked. After the vanilla marriage ended, I became serious with and eventually married a Pro Domme. Unknown to me at the time, I was thrust into a DD marriage and household. Things went well, no issues left open to fester, no silent periods no arguments. Every disagreement ended with a spanking. Ended is the key word here. It was over, completely over, never brought up again and life resumed with a clean slate. I thrived in the marriage. Still a leader on the job, even though my career was winding as retirement grew closer, I was a true submissive at home. She taught me how to live like this and I must admit life was much better. Many lessons were taught with the assistance of a paddle, but I learned that a FLR suited me to a 'T'. Fast forward a bit and that marriage ended after almost 10 years for reasons not associated with the DD lifestyle, the seed had been planted. When my next relationship was eminent, and we discussed living conditions, I wanted a FLR and DD household. WHY??? I would say because I had now experienced two lifestyles and much preferred the FLR. We drafted the agreement, list of offenses and lists of covenants, duties, chores and house rules. I am spanked for offenses and like before, there are no arguments, no silent periods, just a smooth running household in the DD format. Now over 11 years old, I am convinced this is the way I want to live.....WHY, because it has worked very well for me and us.

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    1. While my DD/FLR progress has involved only one woman, the journey has some similarities to what you describe. I had hit a point where I was stressed out constantly, my wife wasn't happy, and I was constantly beating up on myself about my own behavior. I discovered the DWC website, and it showed me there could be an alternative to the mutually destructive cycle. At first (and for several years), it was mainly about the accountability and punishment, not the sexual component (though I don't deny that was always in the mix), and not any larger shift in the decision-making power. But, at the outset I didn't really appreciate the value of, as you say: "Every disagreement ended with a spanking. Ended is the key word here." I've described before a work situation I went through in which a peer and I had joint responsibility for a major project. We were friends, but we would reach impasses in which each was absolutely convinced of his own position, and we just could not break out of it without really bad feelings. It was totally unworkable and convinced me that true 50-50 relationships are very difficult. Now, that has nothing to do with spanking, but it does address the attraction to FLR. Like you, over time I have found that within certain bounds it works for me if she makes decisions. And, yes, in the hands of a bad person or someone with poor judgment, that could be a problem. But, that's not the situation I'm in. And, while we began by stressing that DD was not about sex, things have now come around almost 180 to a situation in which the FLR aspects are very sexy even if the overall goal is not sexual gratification.

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  2. For us it’s been working for 30 yrs. 99.9% of the time I’m in control. I do everything around the house ( excel cooking). I make sure she her health and any other issues are taken care of. I’m still a ff/ medic and respond to incidents of any nature. I’ve been on many life threatening calls. It’s my choice and I’m fine with it. However sometimes the stress of everything catches up with me. I say and do things I regret. We found out long ago that a spanking would remedy things. Dev is VERY good at it ! When I’m over her knee , SHE has total control as to how long and hard the spanking will be. As Spanked Cowboy says , when it’s over it’s over. All is forgiven and forgotten. Most spankings have been tolerable but also a number of very memorable ones. It takes a lot of trust to lay across her lap knowing the paddle will applied. She trusts me to protect her. I trust her too. This may not be for everyone but works well for us. JR

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    1. I like "she trusts me to protect her." I definitely want that even if I am the spanker.
      Belle

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  3. I share some of your history, Dan, along with a lifelong fascination with spanking. I grew up with two working parents who had little interest in me. I was raised by housekeepers who had no authority to discipline me. Fortunately, I was largely well behaved.

    As a result of my unsupervised upbringing, I've always associated being loved with parental control. Combine that with the way I sexualize spanking, and I think I am a perfect storm for DD. The arousal thinking about being spanked keeps me ready to accept punishment, and my need for control makes me a willing subject.

    Like you, I can't really understand this beyond those two simple motives. I am a type "A" male in all other areas of my life.We recently had to suspend our disciplinary activities for a few months due to surgery (mine) and a long recovery. Predictably, I missed the control and punishment when required. Much more surprising, my wife missed it too. She can't explain why, but she strongly prefers being my disciplinary wife. She was quite surprised when she discovered that.

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    1. "The arousal thinking about being spanked keeps me ready to accept punishment, and my need for control makes me a willing subject." Great way to put it, and consistent with my thinking that there may be two separate personality traits or drives (spanking interest and some kind of high-performance orientation) coming together for some men interested in DD. And, btw, thinking through Belle's question took me to that theory. I actually had not thought of it quite that way before.

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    2. Hope you are better.
      Belle

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  4. There are certainly different motivations possible. Since childhood, for me it has simply been a fetish. I've never been able to connect the dots to explain why. I hated the experience growing up but was fascinated by the subject from many angles. I'm not submissive. I'm not masochistic. Beyond the fetish, I don't feel motivated to try to fix or achieve anything through this kind of discipline. I would not ask my wife to discipline me. A female who must ask, "Why would a man...?" is a brick wall nonstarter for me. If she doesn't understand this fetish, and it's not in her nature and her desire like mine to be in this kind of relationship, she doesn't have what it takes for my fetish. A vital factor in this is an attraction to her strength, wisdom and caring, and that to express herself as a disciplinarian is fulfillment for her. When she takes control, punishes to correct or motivate, her act of nurture is profound intimacy and a turn on. I want her to enjoy the justice exacted and the transformation that imposes humility, and also with the compassion that should accompany the pain she is inflicting. If she has to put on an act, I'm just not interested. When she has an understanding for this fetish, where an adult finds fulfillment in being treated "like a naughty child" by a parental-like figure and authority, the chemistry can be explosive. I'm also drawn to the other side of the equation, and despite not being an alpha male, can lead with a partner wanting that.

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    1. Without putting words in your mouth, it sounds like you and are almost opposite sides of the coin. My DD interest was probably 80% about discipline and accountability, and about 20% getting turned on by female power. For you, it seems to be almost 100% about getting off on female power, at least power that has a kind of maternal element, and very little of it is about wanting to achieve any kind of change in behavior. Is that fair?

      "I'm also drawn to the other side of the equation, and despite not being an alpha male, can lead with a partner wanting that." I understand how some could be fluid in this respect, but I personally am not. I have zero desire to take control over other people. It is actually my least favorite part of leading at work. I do it in order to get things done, but I get zero pleasure from exercising control over others.

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    2. Dan: I do require that the discipline be legitimate for the purpose of behavior modification or a form of justice that relieves guilt. If it actually works in achieving that, it's a far more powerful fulfillment of the fetish. I recognize in myself that this successful interaction of power exchange is to satisfy my fetish. Without that desire, I wouldn't desire it as simply a practical regime of discipline. I am certainly far from perfect, but manage my own life.

      Since I was a young child, I've been drawn to this parental-like discipline dynamic. I also have no desire to control other people --- the exception being, in the context of the fetish, I can enjoy assuming the role of HOH and/or disciplinarian. The nurturing and supportive aspects of it can be wonderfully positive. Fundamentally, my control is really controlled by her needs and desires. If her fetish or need is complementary, my understanding of what she's looking for can be an advantage.

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    3. I like that you see it as nurturing and supportive.
      Belle

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  5. Belle,
    This is Arthur. My marriage may have similarities with yours, as we also separated, though briefly. It was due to my alpha male arrogance, particularly with the children. I was very harsh with them verbally, and my wife correctly could not tolerate that. Finally she took the kids to her mother's. When I went there to get her back, her mother stopped me at the door and suggested I needed to be "thrashed."
    I went home and thought long and hard. Spanking was common in my wife's family of origin, but not in mine (nor did I have an attraction to spanking, much like Dan). I had a lot of guilt about causing this separation, and she had a lot of anger. So maybe letting her punish me physically could relieve both quickly.
    When she did come home a few days later, I related what her mother said at the door and asked if she thought it could help. I was suggesting a one-time event, but she took it to mean an ongoing DD relationship. Being in the position of wanting to reconcile, I did not let on that I meant just once. Over the next couple days, we discussed the parameters of our DD, which is much more restricted than most on here, and I also made her a paddle over the weekend. The following Mknday morning, after the kids got on the school bus, she used it on me for the first time. It DID help with my guilt and her anger, and since then has been very effective in keeping my arrogance in check.
    She was not shocked about the suggestion, as you seem to be, because she grew up with spanking, including between her parents. She believes corporal punishment is more effective and less damaging to children and spouses than yelling, harboring resentment, and the silent treatment.
    How do I reconcile being an alpha and bending over to be paddled? As others have mentioned, she is helping me be the best father, husband, worker and man that I can be. And her paddle takes the hard edge off my arrogance. Unlike some here, I am still the alpha and the head of our household. Yes, DD gives her much more authority than she used to have. But it is not unlimited like some. We decide together the issues for which I will be paddled and what the paddling will be like. She still sees me as her big strong husband. But she now has this tool to put me in my place when I get out of line. It has strengthened our marriage and improved my behavior.
    Arthur

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    1. "I was suggesting a one-time event, but she took it to mean an ongoing DD relationship." Wow, talk about unintended consequences! ;-)

      Just to be clear, I wouldn't really characterize my wie's authority as "unlimited." The most limiting factor is her own common sense and reasonableness. We have never gotten to a point where she is insisting on something that (a) I care about a lot; and (b) where we just can't come up with an agreed-upon solution. I think any workable DD relationship assumes two mature, reasonable participants.

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    2. Arthur,
      It is great to hear from s man who retains his alpha-ness while being regularly paddled by his wife. Thanks!
      Belle

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  6. This is Belle. Thank you all so much. You have given food for thought. I hope more of you will write.
    I guess what shocks me the most is that my husband was very dominant in our marriage. I initially was very attracted to his confident air. But we married young and after a few years I wanted to go back to school and get a degree and a real career and he didn't like that so much. When I turned 30 I had had enough of him bossing me around and we did not have children, so I left. Now it has been three years apart and I have begun to develop my career and dated others and find I miss his good qualities, including his strength.
    I want him to treat me as an equal. But he, instead of being the boss wants me to be the boss. Including spanking him (which he did to me a couple of times but it just made me mad). So this total role reversal! It just seems overboard.
    Please comment if you are so inclined.
    Belle

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    1. Since you requested a reply I'm going to give you one you might not expect. Based on what you just wrote, my advice would be to just keep going your separate ways regardless of the particular qualities you might be feeling nostalgic for. Lots of people have 'good qualities' and given the history you described, the current confusing request for a role reversal.....without an articulate explanation of why, and your own feelings of this being 'overboard' and something you don't easily understand, you might just be better off at your age to find someone who fits what you are looking for. Regardless of your apparent willingness to try to learn about DD spanking, you are obviously not someone for whom this is an intrinsic desire. As such, even if you compromise to 'make it work', I don't think you'll be able to sustain it or perhaps even do it to the degree he may want. So you'll be trying to change yourself to please him yet again and perhaps not even be able to succeed because it's not a natural part of you. How smart is that strategy?

      I would probably recommend separate paths even if you hadn't separated for three years, but given that you did....and seemed to have benefited from it, why go back to someplace you got out of when you can explore new place you have not yet been? It seems the qualities that tempted your consideration of a return (strength and a desire to be equals) are not what he now wants.....so why do it?

      You lived your past on his terms and ended up leaving. You then developed your own identity.... not with his encouragement but in his absence.... and now he wants you to conform to his new desire. Just take a breath and go out there into the world and have your own life on your own terms and not his.....and be happy. Good luck!

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    2. Can't agree with KD on this one, at least not in all the premises or the ultimate conclusion. If the standard is the wife has to be into spanking and DD from the outset, then I doubt there would be many DD relationships. Maybe 1 in 10 seems to fit the pattern of either the wife initiating the DD relationship or even having two enthusiastic and engaged participants. My wife thought it was "weird" but was willing to give it a try, and it took a very long time for her to start really embracing and enjoying her role.

      People grow and change. When I suggested DD to my wife, coincidentally just a few weeks before she had said something about how perhaps a marriage could have only one big personality. I felt really bad about her feeling like my domineering personality left her as some kind of secondary player. I told her about that concern when I asked her to take a look at the DWC website. From the beginning, an express goal was *both* helping her grow more powerful and taking me down a peg, with the express goal of getting to something more balanced.

      And, Belle, it is up to the two of you to decide just how much of an exchange there would need to be in order to bring things to a better balance. For some, DD can be as limited as delivering spankings for a defined set of offenses, and nothing more. For others, there a full shift in power and authority in the relationship, and everything in between. And, I don't buy at all that if you pursue DD it somehow negates his manhood and "strength."

      I think the question for you to decide is whether what he is proposing is merely different from how things were in the past, or is it *incompatible* with what you want and need. And, it's not like there is a binary decision to be made. You could always give it a try and just see how things turn out.

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    3. Dan: >>>>>If the standard is the wife has to be into spanking and DD from the outset, then I doubt there would be many DD relationships.>>>>>>

      While the emphasis of this blog is DD, with its participants all sharing that lifestyle to different degree, and while this week's topic is about Belle's curiosity over the "why" of it, I can understand approaching a comment from that angle. However, before I could add my own "tale of DD 'why's", I noticed that Belle elaborated on her situation with what I considered a very revealing history. And it is based on that revelation that I left my opinion, of which the DD/spanking "incompatibility" while on the list, was probably the last thing on it.

      I completely agree that the introduction of DD to a person who had never developed the inclination previously need not be a deal-breaker. But the success stories are not plentiful nor usually tainted by other...shall we say "unhelpful" factors.

      If my math is correct. Belle is around 33 with three years of that young lifespan being spent apart from her 'husband'. If Belle was 53, with a solid marriage underlying a good portion of it, the late-life confession of a spouse wanting to try DD with spanking might still be risky.....but my advice would be different. In this case? I stand by my initial post.....and like I said....not primarily due to the DD aspect but more so because she's young and has tasted the positive aspects of being apart from her now-DD-seeking spouse. Why not just run with that? Life is too short to keep running into walls.

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    4. I hear you, though I think Anne and I may highly resemble your remarks! I don't remember exactly when I first proposed DD, and I am math challenged under the best of circumstances. But, if I am close to right about the year I found the DWC and proposed DD, then her age when she first took up the paddle at the request of an immature, dominating husband with attitude problems was . . . about 33!

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    5. KD, I am on your side on this one! While it is natural that we are discussing DD here, since that is the overall topic of this blog and we are all here because of our interest in it, in my mind it is ridiculous that we even try to answer the question about whether she should get back together with him or not! We don't know her, and we don't know him, and they don't know us. Who knows if they belong together or not. And in the end, while DD might be important to him, it is not the only leg on which a strong marriage would stand. Is it a factor? Yes! But it is not everything. Like for example, she didn't mention if she loves him or not, which to me seems somewhat essential!

      Now, I am not sure about the "if she isn't into it or has questions about it, there is little hope" sentiment (sorry for the kind of an unfair paraphrase...!) I think that many if not most couples that are into DD start with one party - usually the one seeking discipline - being into it and the other party either knowing nothing about it or at least having never tried it. And in many cases, if the husband introduces DD to his wife, he will find that she will come to love the role of disciplinarian and the power that comes with it.

      But since we are all jumping on and giving marriage advice... :-) To me, it sounds like it is really important to Belle that he be the "alpha" man that she knew him to be and she is not happy with this new revelation. BTW, oh how I HATE the word "alpha" and would love to never read it and certainly never write it again! Anyway, she wants and needs him to be that, and seems genuinely put off that he is seeking for her to discipline him. At the same time, when he was more dominant in the past, it sounds to me like he crossed the line into being very controlling. If Belle were my daughter, I would be telling her that it seems like she already has all the information she needs to make a smart decision. She DID live with him for three years, and while people do change, they tend to not change very much, in my experience.

      -ZM

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    6. Believe it or not, I hate the "Alpha" label, too. Largely because its contrasting term--"beta"--has been adopted as an insult by a bunch of right-wing faux tough guys. Remember the "crying Nazi" douchebag bag who organized the Portland riots bragging he was ready to do violence, then was filed crying like a baby about being arrested?

      This whole topic just such a fascinating Rorschach test. I didn't think Belle wa saying she was put-off or unhappy about its revelation. She was just surprised by it, didn't know what to make of it, and is concerned IF it were to make the guy into a wimp she doesn't respect. I just haven't heard her say anything to the effect of she's turned off by this or by his interest in it. But, she can speak for herself.

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    7. Yes, Dan is right. I was shocked by my husband's suggestion, and I do not want him to lose his swagger (cockiness, alpha-ness, they are all the same to me).
      In my circles, spanking is fairly common, but among heterosexuals it is the woman who gets spanked. I have no girlfriends who spank their boyfriends or husbands that I know of. So there is that, but moreso is me just not expecting such a suggestion from my too-bossy husband.
      A lot of the spankings in my circle are more erotic than disciplinary among heteros. We've all seen Fifty Shades. Among gay friends, both male and female, there is more DD.
      So I am not against the concept at all.
      Belle

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    8. ZM: Totally with you on the "alpha" label. Mainly because as a self-description it's meaningless. Even in the animal kingdom where the term was originally applied, the concept of the alpha is a fluid thing. (An individual is only the alpha until a new alpha comes along. Similarly, until a 'more alpha' comes along, an individual who is less 'alpha' is still the alpha.) Since no one here or in most places where the term is bandied about, actually interact in a challenge for top-slot dominant position, how can someone identify as such? And in a modern society what defines it? ( A CEO with billions and throngs at his disposal can view himself as an 'alpha'.....but what happens when that guy stumbles into a biker bar and tries to still be top dog? Now who's the 'alpha'?) I mean if you're talking sea elephants or lions the criteria is pretty consistent, but as humans? It's all crap.

      "Aggressive", "Type A", "driven", "physically strong", "technically expert", or "I have an IQ of ___", etc? At least those carry some actual meaning for a human being.

      (Also I'm glad you kind of saw part of my point.)

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    9. As I said, I don't particularly like the label either, but like a lot of linguistic constructions, it is a short-hand that speaker and listener basically understand. "Spanko" "kinky", "domimant", submissive, . . . not sure any of those have any more or less content than Alpha, yet we use them here all the time. If the speaker and listener can communicate conceptually using a given word, then it is literally not "meaningless."

      Also, you're wrong about whether some here interact in a challenge for top-slot dominant position.

      I'm also not sure that the CEO in a biker bar analogy works. First, I've been in biker bars, and you'd be surprised at the proportion of guys bellied up the bar are lawyers, doctors, and CEO types. Kind of expected when the average Harley costs $20k. Second, top-dog status is always going to be context dependent. An alpha dog probably would not fare well against a beta lion were he to wander into a lion pride.

      Anyway, if someone has a better term descriptive term, happy to hear it. But, I respectfully decline to way to encapsulate the concept of someone with a dominant personality, happy to hear it, though I respectfully decline to adopt
      "Type A," "aggressive, etc." since they don't convey the idea any better or with more clarity.

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    10. I thought my examples were pretty clear but obviously anything I say seems to annoy you even when I’m trying to be more moderate in my expression.

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    11. I'm not sure "It's all crap" qualifies as "more moderate," and I'm not sure what you read as "annoyed" in a response that simply disagrees with your assertions that "Alpha" is "meaningless." You can disagree with its connotations, but the connotations are there, so it is objectively is *not* "meaningless."

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    12. Belle, this week or next, I'd love to hear more about your observation that your male and female gay friends are more into DD. I think the whole time I've been doing this blog, only one commenter has spoken specifically to a gay DD relationship, and she posted only once or twice.

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  7. I answer this as an alpha male who likes women –a lot –and is liked by women. Through long experience I have found that I need a strong women to challenge me but also set boundaries or I will - as one former girlfriend put it “just run over” them. Spanking as an erotic charge has been a part of my makeup since grade school. I believe it was a genetic predisposition that was triggered by seeing spankings growing up and being disciplined with corporal punishment growing up by a single mom. So I believe why I need it starts with the genetic predisposition, was strongly reinforced by experiences growing up and finally flowered when I realized some of my alpha tendencies were self-destructive and hurtful to my partners. As a recovering catholic I also have some significant guilt especially about masturbation but also sex in general. Spankings seems to alleviate the guilt as well as release a myriad of feelings, sexual and non-sexual otherwise repressed or expressed incompletely. Being disciplined by a women I care about and respect opens me up emotionally almost entirely. I have no desire to stop being alpha, be feminized or pursue an FLR as it is generally understood. But I want/need the woman in my life to use her authority to discipline and punish me when and how she feels necessary. Otherwise I seek an equal relationship in which I lead and even dominate in many areas. The contradictions are obvious and I acknowledge them. I arrived at this point gradually, spending several years as a “top” spanking girlfriends who welcomed it, but basically playing a role for them that never touched me deeply. My transformation came after my first real disciplinary spanking from a former girlfriend who had not before spanked an adult before but found the experience “so natural” that I completely surrendered to her. After that first spanking (which was a lot more painful than erotic) I realized I deeply needed to have my bum controlled by her (and later my cock through orgasm control). That girlfriend told me many times that she could not imagine maintaining a relationship with me without that “sanction” as she called spanking. My wife who I met after that first relationship ended knew a lot about me from a mutual friend and because of a previous marriage knew what side of the paddle she belonged on and so emotionally we fit like hand and glove. I have grown enormously sine we married and I attribute much of it to her consistent firm and loving discipline. Many spankos struggle to describe what being spanked does for them. For me I know it does control some of my worst behavior while opening me up emotionally and sexually. One is never as vulnerable or open as when or shortly after you have had you ass warmed by someone who loves you and is strong enough to discipline when it is needed. One last point directed at “Bella” and other women who may be in similar circumstances. The “spanking fetish” is not an option and it never goes away or apparently ever diminishes. So if you can’t fulfill your guys disciplinary needs, your relationship will not be a smooth one ( because he will always be looking for that experience) From my personal experience I believe the majority of women in committed relationship who try discipline come to enjoy it and some become ( be careful what you wish for) enthusiastic. That very well may happen to you if you give it an honest try. You very likely know at least one couple who are in a DD and talking to them is very helpful if you can manage that. This is just not something you guy wants as a sexual thrill but something he needs as a person –and he needs it from you.

    Alan

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    1. Great stuff, Alan. I guess where I would disagree a little is on the statements, "The “spanking fetish” is not an option and it never goes away or apparently ever diminishes" and "This is just not something you guy wants as a sexual thrill but something he needs as a person –and he needs it from you." Isn't that maybe a bit stronger than Belle has described the situation? Seems like what he expressed was a need for discipline, not really a spanking fetish. Also, there is a range in the strength of our desires and, yes, I think even fetishes. I gain a lot from DD. My interest level in it is obviously high. I think our marriage is stronger because of it. But, if my wife decided tomorrow that she didn't want to do it anymore, I would feel some sense of loss but I would eventually get over it. Same if I went through what Tomy did and had to move on after losing a disciplinary spouse. If I remarried, I would prefer it to be with someone who had a disciplinary bent, but that would not be a deal-breaker for me. An immutable preference still ends up balanced against other needs, desires and preferences. For most people anyway. Obviously, there are situations where a fetish is so extreme that it overwhelms everything else, but that doesn't really seem to be what Belle is describing.

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    2. Dan

      You are right: I inferred what she did not clearly imply. Maybe Belle will make that clearer. But I will be very surprised if an alpha male asking for discipline is not thinking about corporal punishment

      Alan

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    3. Oh, I agree that he seems to have been asking for corporal punishment. It's just not clear to me that it's because he has a spanking fetish or that his spanking interest is so strong that it drives all his decision-making around what he wants or needs.

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    4. Belle wrote: "I understand that dominatrixes say much of their clientele is powerful men looking for relief from always being "on." But this is far different, an alpha male who wants his wife to treat him like a naughty child."

      That last sentence seems telling to me. Who wants to be treated like a naughty child? If the treatment is central to some form of irrational compulsion?

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    5. Alan and Dan,
      I really liked this exchange. As Alan said, he may have assumed that the guy has a spanking fetish, which might not be correct. But if he in fact does, then I concur with Alan's statement "The “spanking fetish” is not an option and it never goes away or apparently ever diminishes" This pretty well describes me. I have seen little or no change in interest in spanking over the last 40 some years. Other things have came and went, but my spanking interest (or probably fetish more accurately) has never waned. This is true whether I was in a relationship where I was actually getting spanked or not.

      Also, the other statement, for me at least, also rings true: "This is just not something you guy wants as a sexual thrill but something he needs as a person –and he needs it from you." Even though spanking is undeniably sexual to me, it somehow goes deeper and is part of my fundamental makeup. First off, I was fascinated with spanking before I knew anything about sex. And secondly, even though it is obviously sexual, it also invades way more of my thoughts than sex in general does.

      At the same time, what Dan said is also absolutely true: "An immutable preference still ends up balanced against other needs, desires and preferences." I was in a marriage before for 25 years where I desperately wanted this, but she was very unwilling and in fact unable to explore it because she was from a very conservative upbringing and it felt "dirty" to her. While I wanted this more than you can imagine, still I was ready to go the rest of my life without this particular need being fulfilled, because I loved her and we had a great life together.

      Now I have experienced a DD relationship, or at least somewhat since it is of course a work in progress. Now let's say (God forbid) that anything were to happen to my wife. If I ever got back to the point that I wanted to find someone else, which is far from certain since I really feel like the relationship we have is something someone is extremely lucky to find even once in a lifetime, but IF I ever got to the point of finding someone, I would probably talk at least semi-openly about DD early on in the dating stage and it would definitely be a factor on whether the relationship became serious or not. I can't say that it is a "make or break" type thing, but it IS very important to me. But in the end, I wouldn't marry someone because they were into it or ok with it, nor would I not marry someone solely based on this.

      -ZM

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    6. "First off, I was fascinated with spanking before I knew anything about sex. And secondly, even though it is obviously sexual, it also invades way more of my thoughts than sex in general does." These two sentences summarize where I may be different from others with a true spanking fetish. I definitely was not fascinated with spanking before I was fascinated by sex. I think I did have an interest in sex at an early age, perhaps earlier than most. But, that interest has nothing at all to do with spanking. I'm less clear on whether it invades my thoughts more than general sex. Sort of, but maybe because I have obligations to keep the conversation going here, such that spanking is on my mind a lot because I'm engaged with the people here a lot. If the blog went away, I'm not sure how that would come out.

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    7. This exchange is so good! What I like best is the idea of using spanking as a "sanction." Yes to that idea.
      My husband has not revealed whether this is a lifelong fetish or something he has come to recently. That will be one of my questions. Thanks!
      Belle

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  8. Belle: I think the only way to really understand what your husband wants and why he wants it is from his own explanation. For him to ask this of you, and then expect you to figure out what it's all about, is not only unfair to you, it diminishes the chances of it ever happening. It's a mystery to me why someone would flip from being dominant and bossy to suddenly wanting the opposite in the relationship -- unless he's what is called a "switch," but for whatever reason wasn't able to acknowledge or admit to himself that he had a submissive or "bottom" side until recently. Because this is a fetish to me, IOWs an idea that is a sexual focus, I tend to see sexual motivation in others. Is it sexual for your husband, or is discipline strictly a pragmatic need? If it's sexual for him, then you don't need to struggle trying to reconcile any paradox or dissonance involved. It doesn't matter if someone is inherently dominant, strong, independent, proud or arrogant or stubborn, or whatever -- their sexuality is not obligated by their character or personality. The idea turns him on regardless of anything else. If it's not sexual to him, then I have no explanation for the dissonance. He needs to tell you.

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  9. I don't find his "contradictory" behavior in acting bossy at all surprising. It isn't very different from how I behaved until I met a women who in effect said " do that and your pants come down" -and she meant it. I was testing, probing, maybe denying what I really wanted until she called my bluff. I do agree Belle and her estranged husband need to talk badly -and he needs to drop the masquerade and honestly acknowledge his needs and to the extent he can, the source of them. I disagree there is no future for the relationship and think the very fact that three years into a separation there is still aspiration on both sides. Belle has gone more than half way here and now he needs to step up and take responsibility for his feelings. Neither of you want to fumble the ball when you are on the goal line.
    Alan

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  10. Hi! This is Lola and Drew is my husband. This is my first time to comment on the blog although Drew and I read the blog post and the comments almost weekly. I wanted to give Belle some input from the viewpoint of a disciplinary wife. I had no prior inclination to domestic discipline before Drew approached me with the idea about 3 years ago. In Drew’s job, he is responsible for most decisions and employees at his workplace. He also had felt the need during our 32-year marriage to be the one ultimately responsible for the welfare and wellbeing of our family. It took a lot of trust on his part to bring up the idea of domestic discipline. It was also hard for me to understand in the beginning, but after his revelation of the constant stress of feeling responsible for all decision making, I agreed to give it a try and see how it would be. One major thing for our relationship is that I am the primary decision maker now in our household. Any offenses that I deem should be punishable, I have absolute authority to do so. With that power, though, comes the responsibility to really think through any and all decisions. This has built my confidence not only in our own household, but also when dealing with others. I feel like I am a better and stronger woman than I have ever been in my entire life. The trust level in our relationship was always strong, but has reached a whole new level with our FLR relationship and I had considered ourselves as equals, but now we are at a completely different level with that too. One suggestion I would have for you is to have an open and honest discussion with your ex-husband to clearly state what both expectations would be. He would absolutely need to be willing to put full trust and confidence in your decision making for discipline decisions as well as day to day decisions and you would need to be willing to follow through with strength and confidence to maintain clear and consistent guidelines and expectations. Discipline will need to be severe enough and consistent enough that he will begin to become the husband that you want and deserve. - Lola

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    1. Hi Lola. Welcome, and thanks for joining in. I like your reference to how taking responsibility builds your confidence inside and outside the home. Leadership is a skill, like anything else. It gets stronger, easier and better with practice. And, being forced to take responsibility leads to being more responsible. Coincidentally, this came up with my life today. We were joking about something involving where she had disposed of something I've wanted out of the house for months, and I asked her whether she actually got rid of it or whether it was hiding somewhere in the house. She challenged me to go look for it, and I quipped that I spent way too much of my time tracking things down for her as it is. It's kind of a running joke that she will claim not to be able to find something she's spent an hour looking for, but it takes me about 30 seconds of searching to find it. Her reply to my quip today was something along the lines of, "You have no idea how much more self-sufficient I'm becoming with you traveling all the time," plainly proud of herself. It was a fun moment, and while I feel guilty about being gone all the time, I think it really has forced her to become self-sufficient. I know that doesn't have anything to do with DD per se, but I think people generally rise to the occasion, and if your DD or FLR relationship puts you in the position to make more decisions, you'll find yourself making more of them more easily. All good.

      Thanks again for joining in.

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    2. Hi Lola,

      This is great advice not only for Belle but for any wife establishing a new DD relationship. I have a question if you care to answer it. Why do you think Drew waited so long to bring up DD with you? This seems to be a common pattern with couples and the question is based on the fact that most men ( not all as Dan reminds us) recognize the interest in discipline pretty early in life.A related question is whether or not you would have been open to a DD relationship earlier. Thanks for any thoughts you care to contribute.
      Alan

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    3. Hi Alan,
      I think that in our younger years, neither Drew nor I would have done as well with an FLR relationship. He has a dominate personality, and would not have been able to handle the idea of me being the one in charge of our household. I also had to grow into my own confidence and ability to take charge, make decisions that were right for us as a family, and be willing to discipline Drew for any habits or actions in which I deemed needed correction. It was probably 4 or 5 years ago that Drew stumbled upon information about DD and FLR relationships. Something about giving me total control, as well as having complete trust in me, seemed to resonate with him. Being able to give responsibility of one aspect of his life to someone he trusted allowed him to relieve stress in a way that he had never imagined. He was extremely nervous asking me about an FLR relationship and about me punishing him. I was unsure at first because this was a foreign concept for me. I loved him enough and trusted him enough, though, to give it a try. It has not only strengthened our marriage, but helps to make everything run smoother. There are never any disagreements now and with me taking on the responsibility of making decisions, it has relieved a part of stress for him that is reflected in his demeanor and attitude. It has also allowed me to become a stronger more confident woman.
      Hope this helps to answer your questions!
      Lola

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    4. Hi Lola
      And thanks for your response to my question. Your experience seems to echo that of many (most?) DD couples who begin DD after years of a committed relationship. As someone who came to a female led DD relationship after considerable experimentation and experience I think I understand that. At the same time looking back I know that was what I needed from my early 20’s but was inhibited by my self-image as an alpha male. I wonder if it isn’t the patriarchal culture that inhibits both men and women when younger – only to give way with maturity to the freer expression of who we are. That culture is surely changing at a rapid pace. Maybe it will translate into couples “discovering” DD earlier. I suspect that is already happening. I hope you stick around and offer your perspective especially to couples just starting out. My wife has often expressed the wish she had a mentor when she started (someone to talk to) and I think that’s a widespread feeling in the DD community
      Alan

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    5. "My wife has often expressed the wish she had a mentor when she started (someone to talk to) and I think that’s a widespread feeling in the DD community." I wish mine had a mentor early, or just someone to share thoughts with now. It's really the desire for anonymity and fears of reputational harm that causes the problem.

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    6. You all are my mentors!
      Belle

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    7. Thank you, Lola, for telling your story. I do not want an FLR, but much of what you say resonates with me. I want that marital intimacy outside of the bedroom that you talk about. We didn't have enough of that. The closeness you describe is inspiring
      Yes, he definitely needs to explain himself more. I may have to "make" him do so!
      Belle

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  11. This is Belle. I truly appreciate all of the thoughtful responses. Several suggested I get a further explanation from my husband. When I have asked, he acts embarrassed and shy and says he truly doesn't. Some of you have said you don't fully understand your reasons behind your craving, so maybe he isn't holding out.
    KD suggested I just move on and had some powerful thoughts. I have thought that too. But there are reasons that I never divorced him. I have had feelings for him all through the separation. If I knew he was not going back to his old ways ... And maybe DD is a way of ensuring that. I certainly can see the advantage of ending an argument any time I choose.
    My main hesitation is that I have always been attracted to strong confident men. Would it be ok for me to have a man who is alpha at work and beta at home? I don't know.
    Thanks to all of you so much! Keep talkin'
    Belle

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    1. " doesn't know." I left off "know."

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    2. Hi Belle!

      Instead of seeing him as "beta," see it as him delegating power to you to "correct" his flaws (we all have them.) It doesn't make him any less strong or confident, or even masculine.

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    3. Belle,
      Reading what you have written, I think you are one of those who will thrive in a real DD. As far as him becoming beta at home and alpha at work , I know that the discipline my wife provides at home makes me more alpha,take charge and confident in the outside world.My wife loves to see me perform knowing the power she has over me when she chooses to use it. Ponder that paradox if you will but that is the way it works for alphas disciplined at home.The paddle ( actually usually a bath brush) frees me from inhibitions and releases more of my aggression -while keeping it under control at home. I think it is time for both of you to jump back into the pool and work it out. Set a time limit -at least six months and a year or more is better- to determine if it works for you. Establish early that the only rule is you have unchallenged authority to discipline and he cannot challenge it.Then use that authority as you see fit and watch the magic occur. IF he cannot obey or accept your disciplinary authority it will not work and so make it clear he has to obey you.You will encounter some defiance and disobedience in the beginning as he struggles with submitting to your authority . But that is exactly what he needs and wants and the defiance will not last long . It sounds to me as if you are ready to exercise authority in your relationship and that means both of you are on the same page -maybe for the first time in a while. But for now the important thing is get started.
      Alan

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    4. Hi Belle. If he's embarrassed to talk about it, it could be a sexual urge. Being driven by desires that feel awkward or against one's own sense of themselves or how they want to be seen is typical of this urge. I grew up with it and still feel uncomfortable. There's not much social or cultural support for the idea of a submissive husband who must be treated as a child. You, yourself, appear to have problems with it, and also are attracted to the "alpha male" model that society respects.

      If you have problems treating your husband in ways that are unattractive to you, ask him how he needs you to lead. Does he really require a certain method of discipline? Would it work if you were basically in control of the house, the relationship and his behavior, but where you punished him in less emasculating ways? If not, then he has a specific need/desire to be catered to that I suspect is not simply about who's the leader.

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    5. Merry,
      I like the idea of correcting my alpha's flaws rather than turning him into a beta.
      By the way, all, those are not pejorative terms in my circle, merely descriptive.
      Alan, interesting that punishment frees you from inhibitions. That could help my husband.
      Brett, I don't know if it's sexual but I think so because the two times he spanked me he was very turned on by it (I was not turned on emotionally, though the heat in my seat had some uncontrollable consequences).
      Belle

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  12. Sometimes people are so tightly "wound" in their position in life ("alpha" for example, gender irrelevant) that once in a while, they desire or need a "balance." domestic discipline, or in some cases, BDSM fills that need.

    You decide EVERYTHING, but you need a "break." Discipline does that.

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    1. Exactly! I get "tightly wound" is the most reliable predictor of DD recipients who don't identify as submissives - male or female. Certainly suits me.

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    2. One must remember the strength required to receive discipline. Someone who is weak couldn't take it.

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  13. Belle,
    This is Liz. This morning, after the kids got on their school buses, my alpha husband brought me the paddle and bent over our desk in his work suit without a word. I gave him 20 really hard swats which made him grunt and groan. When I told him to stand up, he turned and thanked me, kissed me, and left for work. I still had the paddle in my hand.
    While this was clearly submissive behavior on his part, I do not see him as a submissive man or a beta. He is my big strong husband who would protect me at all costs. Yet there are certain behaviors that we have agreed he should be punished for. For us there really is no conflict between him being an alpha male and me thrashing his behind.
    Liz

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    1. "He is my big strong husband who would protect me at all costs." While the imagery just doesn't resonate for me for whatever reason, KD and others talk about the "queen and her knight" archetype. Again, doesn't do anything for me (why is Lancelot always depicted as such an effeminate pussy in all the classic movies), but I do appreciate the general relationship ideal.

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    2. Boyfriend, "Master B" calls it a Princess and her Dragon instead. Think on that!

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    3. Dragon works better, though there is something about the whole "queen," "princess" thing that just doesn't resonate with me. Though, I can't say I have anything better.

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  14. After reading more and more I have some questions. One is for the group here and the other two are for Belle.

    DD-Group: I know none of you believe that DD is the answer to every problem. In fact some of you mention having had DD relationships that ended for 'other reasons'. So why does it seem everyone is focused solely on the DD aspect here, giving out all sorts of titillating, personal, anecdotal DD information, and not the entire picture Belle is giving us? DD does not 'conquer all' anymore than love does. Would you all be giving the same advice if Belle was your vanilla daughter?

    Belle: I am very curious as to what your parents thought when you told them about your inclination to get back together? Mom & Dad both supportive of that?

    And my second question to you is based on this: You said, "I certainly can see the advantage of ending an argument any time I choose." Do you really believe that when it's something big, beyond leaving the toilet seat up or some other domestic trifle, that this will really happen just because you agreed to a DD relationship?



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    1. For me, a couple of things. First, I have no idea whether my kids are vanilla. If Alan is right and there is a genetic component to DD, then . . . Second, I wonder whether you're reading more into her comments about her husband than is actually there. So far, all she's really said he is (a) he was confident; (b) he was bossy; and (c) he didn't support her desire to go back to school and get a career. A guy in his 20s or very early 30s who was cocky and self-centered. Shocker.

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    2. Yes, I am glad I never behaved like that. I would have deserved a spanking
      Alan

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    3. Dan: Not reading too much....just what's there. And for me it's all about "c". That one speaks volumes and if it was MY daughter who told me her husband wouldn't "let" her continue school and develop a career, I think I would have gotten my .357 out of my safe rather than merely advise her to dump him....unless it meant dumping his corpse somewhere it wouldn't be found. But I'm touchy about 'little' stuff like that.

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    4. KD: Apparently so on "touchy", since that's not what she actually said. Belle's words were "and he didn't like that so much." No reference to wouldn't "let" her do it. And, "let" doesn't fit the reported facts, since she left him and did what she wanted. Her first post was why an Alpha would reverse and want discipline. Her follow-up provided background, none of which involved "making" her do anything or not "letting" her do something. This is proving to be a very interesting topic, as I'm not sure I've had another one in which I had to keep paging up over and over again to verify what someone actually said versus my own recollection and versus what people keep saying she said. And, my own daughter is well less than 33, yet I feel no desire at all to get out my .357 (one of which I do have, by the way) to protect her from the vagaries of some guy who, at this point all I know about is (a) confident; (b) cocky; and (c) not supportive of her aspirations. First, I don't feel like I need to tell a 33 year-old daughter how to manage her love life. Second, I wouldn't want to deny mine the learning experiences that come with dating the "wrong" people. Third, I not only do believe cocky assholes can change, I am one who kind of did.

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    5. Exactly, Dan. You hit it.
      The truth is that when I was 19 and not enjoying college, I wanted to be his little housewife and sex toy. He was 26, a veteran, and a senior with job offers. And I loved cocky. We all were swooning, and I won.
      Then i grew up.
      Belle

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    6. Belle: So then why did you leave? ...........for three years no less? If it was just about growing up, wasn't he maturing as well? And even if you didn't want college at one time, why would a spouse not support the decision to return? I ALWAYS supported my first wife and I always supported Rosa in whatever she wished to do to develop herself. Who doesn't do that for someone they love?

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    7. He had everything he wanted in a cute little housewife who was always home and at his beck and call (sp?). Why would he change?
      Belle

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    8. "And I loved cocky. We all were swooning, and I won. Then i grew up." I don't think my wife's friends swooned, but the first time we met, I was so clueless I didn't know she was into me, and the fact that I was cocky and distant definitely is what led to the initial attraction. But, interestingly, after we got together, she almost dumped me after I did something *really* Alpha. Not to her, but when something set me off about how someone treated her. So, I guess you could say that from the very beginning we had a push-pull around whether the Alpha thing was attractive or crossed a line.

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    9. At first his macho crossing the line was a turn-on for me. He was so obviously into me and was my tough guy protector. But after I found out I could not have kids and decided I wanted a career, everything changed because he seemed to turn his macho on me rather than for me. But I was definitely changing, so maybe it was my response that was different. The little housewife didn't want to be a housewife anymore, and the marriage couldn't handle it.
      Belle

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    10. Yeah, at that age people really can change. Which is great because it means we all can and do grow. But, it can wreak havoc on those early romantic relationships that worked when they started but may involve two very different people a few years later. That happens a fair amount in my profession, and it's one reason there are so many multiple marriages. I'm one of the few exceptions in my crowd in being married to the same person from before grad school until today.

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  15. KD,
    Several on here (though not you) talk like you accept any punishment your wife dishes out and it solves problems big and small. So I hope it would be more than the toilet seat (though that is not trivial in the middle of the night. None of you guys has ever fallen in!).
    And in regards to my parents: well ... I haven't discussed it with them. I am a grown-ass woman! But your point is well-taken. I have discussed with my best friend and my therapist. And I do know what my parents would say (Dad: run! Mom: I love you, dear).
    Belle

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    1. I think you misunderstood, Belle. I didn't mean discussing the DD aspect with your parents. I mean the getting back together in general. They know you. They know him, and as such must know what was bad and what was good. Once you got out, started to advance a career and generally improve your life, they must have had an opinion when you mentioned getting back together?

      But since you mentioned you therapist and best friend, what was their opinion?

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    2. No, I did mean getting back together when I mentioned what my parents would say. So I have not asked them because I am not their little girl anymore, though they still think so. I haven't discussed his DD request with anyone.

      My best friend says, "You two are so obviously in love. It's not if you get back together, but when. But the when has to be when you are ready."

      My therapist says, "He needs to get to know the new you and decide if he can handle an assertive professional woman of the 21st Century."

      When I presented that to him, he came back on the next phone call with DD! Shocked me!
      Belle

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    3. Belle: Whether you asked them or not, they don't have an opinion? I never knew parents to be shy about making their feelings known....whether invited or not. I find your assertion that 'you're not their little girl anymore' to be .....well.....odd. After all, you discussed it with your friend, your therapist, and you even came to this group of strangers here......but not the two people who know you best? Discussing something with parents does not mean you have to agree or follow their advice. I do find it interesting that your speculation on your father's advice is "run!".....since when I look at this from a fatherly perspective (you're only a couple of years older than my daughter) my inclination is also "run".....and I don't even know you.

      But I somewhat suspect that you have already made up your mind. It sure seems that way. Asking a bunch of DD lifestylers about whether DD is a good idea? That's a bit like a person on the fence about faith seeking advice solely from a church congregation. ;-) So I get the feeling you are already intrigued by this "DD thing". So that's a good sign. If you were leaning away from it, I imagine you'd be telling your friend and therapist the DD aspect. (In fact I'm surprised that you didn't discuss the DD aspect at least with your therapist. I mean if you really want an objective opinion, who better?)

      For every success story here, there are way more frustrated couples who can't resolve these desires. The internet is awash in guys and ladies who can't mesh their desires with those of their spouses. And there are those who refuse from the start, those who try and fail, those who try and succeed for a while and then fail, and those who make it work.....of which the latter category is a rather exclusive club....and even we struggle at times (if we're honest about it).

      But as you said, you are a grown woman. It's your decision. I wish you the best of luck.

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    4. This is one where we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think I ever once asked my parents for their opinion about anything related to my love life, and they pretty much minded their own business. They are very curious about our kids' romantic relationships, but they'd never presume to offer advice about it unless asked.

      While I've had opinions about some of the people my kids' dated, I seldom offered those opinions. They are grown-ups. If they wanted my opinion, they'd let me know and I'd give it. But, otherwise, unless I think they are being abused in some way, it's not really any of my business. I'm not into helicopter parenting, and I don't see it as my job to prevent my kids' from being exposed to difficult people.

      Also, how do you know Belle's parents are the people who know her best? I don't think of my parents as the people in life who know me the best. There are all sorts of things I would never tell them that I might open up about to others, including DD most especially.

      As for telling a therapist about DD, I would be very careful about that, at least in the context of a present DD relationship. Mandatory reporting laws vary, and you have to be very careful about opening up to any therapist unless you have some reason to know whether they are kink positive.

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    5. I'm on Dan's side. But keep fighting over me. Tee hee.
      Truthfully, though, your dialogue is helpful.
      Belle

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    6. I'll add to it. I feel like people are answering a question that I don't think you ever asked, namely whether DD is some sort of miracle tool to save bad relationships. But, as I understand it, your question was just how does a guy who is majorly Alpha suddenly decide he wants DD?

      You also seem to be asking whether spanking him and taking control like that might make him less attractive to you, since his cockiness and Alpha nature were a big part of the attraction. Instead of answers to that, you're getting a bunch of relationship advice and suggestions about who you should talk to about whether this guy is fixable.

      In terms of whether entering into a DD or FLR relationship would make him less attractive to you, I don't know. You'd have to try it and find out. But, I haven't heard any wives complain about that or any of the men saying any of their relationships blew up because DD made them less attractive to their partner. My wife has said she gets off on making me take a spanking f and watching me comply, precisely because she knows I am *not* submissive and that taking orders from her is incredibly hard. For her, it's a turn-on that I comply *because* I have a strong personality and she is able to overcome it.

      As for whether this guy is fixable through DD, who knows? Here is how I see it: What do you have to lose? At worst, you try it and it doesn't work, but in the meantime you get a little payback" for the lack of support he gave you! And, if it does work out and you end up back with someone you like but now have some control over, all the better.

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    7. Maybe I want too much. I don't want a doormat who will fall down on the floor every time I point. I am not seeking a submissive. I want him to be confident and even cocky at times (which I find hot, you know, to be swept off my feet) ... but not get in my way on major issues like my career.

      Dan, you still seem a bit cocky even though your wife punishes you. Are you just cocky at work or can you have an attitude at home and know when to be "attractively cocky" and when to back off or get punished?
      Same question for others.
      My fear is if I start beating his ass that he will lose the swagger I married him for!
      Belle

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    8. And I think it would be too hard to just try it again and then split up again if it doesn't work. If we decide to live together again, it should be for keeps. I could try dating him, but I know we'd wind up in bed (I can't resist the urge when I'm with him, honestly) and then why not move in, blah blah and the deed is done.
      Belle

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    9. Belle

      If you haven't read Hamlet you should because you are reprising him spo well that Shakespeare would probably blush. Get out of your head, stop being indecisive and dive back into his life.You are suffering from "paralysis by analysis " (and yes I am an expert on that") The biggest mistake you can make now is to do nothing at all. Go get em.
      Alan

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    10. Honestly I hated Shakespeare. Too much work to understand. It's like jazz or opera. I know it's good, but not for me. I did like Beckett, though. He just let nonsense be nonsense.
      I don't feel paralyzed at all. I have learned plenty about DD in the last few days.
      Belle

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    11. Oh, I think my wife would testify I still have PLENTY of swagger at home! The whole reason I want to explore FLR more is because DD has helped with some behaviors, but it hasn't gotten to the core aggressiveness that can get me in trouble. And, for us, from the beginning it was as much about helping her get *more* assertive, not just bring me down. We both got that she was too passive and I was too bombastic. So, the goal was empowering her to keep me between the lines. At heart, I am not submissive and never will be. It's more about empowering her to sand off some of my more domineering (not dominant, domineering -- there is a difference) tendencies, by helping her feel more assertive. Honestly, if you look at our trajectories over the last 15 years, I think DD has changed *her* more than it has changed me. I am still basically the same guy I was before, just with a bit more incentive to keep some behavior in check. She, however, has become a lot more comfortable with being assertive and better at not settling for less than what she wants and deserves.

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    12. See, your case interests me because I am much more assertive than I was three years ago and even then was unwilling to put up with his domineering attitude. I didn't know how to deal with him, so I left. Now I have blossomed on my own, and probably could hold my own in a dispute with him much better than three years ago. But worry that I might not and fall back under his thumb. Then he suggests we use DD in such situations, and it is intriguing because then I know I can win. So as KD says, I am thinking about it. It seems to have worked well with you, Dan. And I could see liking having power over my alpha, like Anne.
      I really don't think I want FLR, though. I want him to keep the swagger. I find it entertaining and sexy. And I feel protected by it. So I still wonder what I asked before: Does Anne like and therefore allow some of your cockiness? And is that confusing for you?
      To be blunt: I don't want him to ask if he can take me to bed, I want him to just do it! And then in the morning treat me like the career woman I am! And overall think of ourselves as equals, even though we each lead in different areas and I sometimes spank him. Is that being mercurial and confusing? Or are some men comfortable with that kind of variability?
      Belle

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    13. Belle,
      This is Lola's husband Drew. I think without question Lola would say I am far from being submissive or a doormat at home. However, I do accept whatever punishment she deems appropriate whenever she feels like it is necessary for whatever reason. This is what I agreed to when we started our FLR and I intend to always live up to that committment. Otherwise, I would undermine her authority and confidence and basically destroy the Flr the same way a divorce destroys the relationship. The level of trust required to make such a committment to someone is indescribable. However, if both parties are really committed to it, the level of communication, love, and sexual satisfaction for both parties is amazing. We are truly closer than we could have ever imagined, we have no secrets and can talk to each other about anything. For me, it is truly about being the best husband I can be to my wife and making her happiness the ultimate goal each and every day. She truly deserves that and the benefits for her and myself just keep getting better every day. I never want the spankings when they are happening and some can be very severe which I know are absolutely necessary. However, I always have a tremendous feeling of love and respect for Lola as soon as each spanking is over. There are never any lasting arguments or hard feelings. Her sexual satisfaction is also always her prerogative also. She can decide when or if she wants to be taken care of and I am always there to do whatever she needs. I wish we could have started our FLR many years ago, but as Lola stated above, we both had to mature enough to realize the commitments required and the benefits received could be so great.
      Drew

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    14. "I really don't think I want FLR, though. I want him to keep the swagger. I find it entertaining and sexy. And I feel protected by it. So I still wonder what I asked before: Does Anne like and therefore allow some of your cockiness? And is that confusing for you?"

      Short answer is, I think she likes, the swagger, has never tried to get rid of it, and I'm not sure I could get rid of it if I tried. I will always be the guy who spends an hour in the gym every day moving heavy weights around. I ride motorcycles. I really like fast cars and jacked-up Jeeps. I drink beer and like movies where Clint Eastwood shoots a lot of people. None of that testosterone laden stuff has changed at all.

      And. for perspective, we were into DD for 12 or 13 years before we started exploring FLR. Even now FLR is something we go back and forth on. And, it is definitely erotically driven to an extent that DD is not. Just like you feel attracted to your husband's cocky side, part of me totally gets off on my wife showing swagger. I think cockiness and confidence is attractive to both sexes, at least for some of us. I also do have a thing about giving up control, and I think that desire to just give up being in control is the thing that unites my DD desire and my interest in FLR. Paradoxically, I think that desire to give up control is itself kind of an expression of the intense side you find attractive in a man. It's like bullriders or skydivers -- they are putting themselves in situations where the outcome is not totally in their control, and that can be really powerful if you are wired for intense experiences. Well, what is DD and FLR other than a spectrum of giving up control, not knowing the full outcome?

      But, to answer your question directly, I haven't asked Anne whether she likes my swagger, but I think the answer would clearly be yes. I doubt the "allow" question has ever entered into her mind. She's never tried to get rid of the cockiness. It's more about trying to rein it if it causes problems for her or crosses some obvious lines like going off on someone at work.

      Exploring an FLR with her is not confusing in itself, but we've had problems at the margins. When she started really cracking down on my excesses around drinking, we had a couple of very tense weeks trying to scope out the boundaries between control and nagging. We really had to talk through that. As Alan pointed out to me at the time, some of it was just the natural situation that the wife cracks down and there is likely a period of rebellion. But, part was the anti-authoritarian part of my makeup coming roaring back. To me, the difference between FLR and DD is about making and enforcing rules before bad behavior happens, versus punishing it after the fact. When she started really bossing me around on drinking, versus just spanking me if I had a bad night, that really chafed on me and my swagger game out in spades. We're still working on that.

      I think that you may be kind of blending FLR and Femdom with these concerns. My wife *never* points to the floor and tells me to kneel. Not our thing (at least so far). I am not submissive in that way at all. It's more about her taking more control in certain situations, making more decisions over time, and being the tie-breaker. It's not degrading or about trying to make me less than I am.

      Now, all that said, you are absolutely right to point out that you may not need FLR now or ever, as you've grown for three years without it. If DD would help you grow even more, great. If not, then don't do it or try it and, if it doesn't help anything, stop doing it.

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    15. This is really heartening to me, Dan. He keeps his swagger but I get to be the tie-breaker! I love that!
      I have scheduled a phone call with him for Saturday night, after I read all of this week's entries. I don't know yet what I am going to say, so please keep talkin' on here, everyone.
      The men and women who have posted this week have helped me immensely. Thank you. And thank you for this blog, Dan.
      It is just what I needed in this crucial point in my life. Gracias.
      Belle

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    16. I will chime in on this aspect because I completely agree that one's essential personality and therefore "attractiveness" to one's mate need not be compromised by DD. Even though my 'ex' was into doing this for years, I do believe that over time, she did lose respect for me.....even though I didn't really change. With Rosa, so far that hasn't happened and she loves to tease me about being her 'badass' at times. She is not looking to beat that out of me. Nor do I think she could. DD can be as structured, limited, free-from, or unlimited as you both agree you want it to be.

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    17. What I forgot to add was that in most of my DD-type relationships, loss of respect was not an issue, but in my first marriage, I do believe it was. So to deny the possibility of either outcome is impossible for me. Perhaps that's why, while I live a DD lifestyle, and am more than willing to talk it up, when it was ONLY 'talked up' I felt like I needed to toss a little cold water reality on what genuinely could happen....and did happen to me as balance. Yes it can be great......but it can go south too. Or both. It can start out great, and deteriorate over time. It's all about the people involved.....which again is why I might have been more focused on my perception of who you both are. But I don't know you, only you know you (and him).

      I am sorry if my past posts were overly negative.

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    18. It certainly can change over time, for either or both parties, up or down. In your case, your first wife seemed to lose respect for you over time. Conversely, Danielle has talked about how she rejected her husband's DD drives and submissive kinks early on, but later came around and now loves being in charge. Different strokes for different folks -- perhaps to be taken a bit more literally in the DD community than elsewhere.

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    19. KD, I don't think you were being negative at all. You asked me good questions and took interesting positions. And you triggered inspired responses from Dan. This is greatly appreciated and just the kind of open dialogue I hope to get out of my husband. We are going to have a "talk" about DD. And if he cannot do it on the phone, he may have to do it with his pants down! And you all have given me this confidence!
      Belle

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  16. Belle
    Yes it is much more than an open toilet seat but in my experience, in the beginning it’s not quite “accepting any punishment your wife hands out” either. In a word, it’s a “consensual relationship” (OK, two words) in which the consent is often given a priori but still given freely. In practice in the beginning many couples agree on the disciplinary goals, at least broadly and maybe more specifically and these things become “spankable” Aunt Kay suggested this approach many years ago and it works. It’s a process and one that engenders trust and forces both to learn and improve on their communication. Over time her authority evolves from specific behavior to much broader authority as both come to understand the needs of the other and eventually it gets to “we discuss, she decides, I obey”.

    Alan

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    1. Well stated, Alan! You very concisely reduced the process that takes place over years to several sentences.

      -ZM

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    2. Thank you, Alan.
      Belle

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  17. My parents worked since I was 10. That gave me responsibility of operating on my own. I was also heavily into athletics , and showed talent and leadership in football, basketball and baseball that led to an athletic scholarship at a major University. I continued to play football and baseball at the University and was drafted by an NFL team and offered contracts by two MLB teams. During this time I married my high school sweetheart my Junior year in college, when we were both age 20. I passed up the professional sport offers (not much money in 1960 and not worth it in my opinion), got a job in Industrial Relations and went to night law school for four years. Graduated, passed the Bar exam, and then shot for the top in the business world. Started by own company in 1973 and ran it until retirement in the 1990's. Traveled extensively my entire business career. As I was developing my business career, my wife raised three kids, ran the household, and made her own life at the country club and running other meaningful clubs and groups. So I had my life and she had hers, and when I retired and was with my wife 24/7 the sparks began to fly. I was used to being the boss and treated my wife much like she was my secretary. She was used to her independence, wasn't going to put up with my ego and behavior, and we were in serious discussions about divorcing each other. It became clear to both of us we really didn't want to divorce, and it became clear to me I had developed some behaviors that I wasn't proud of and needed to improve. I went to the internet. One of the first hits to improve your marriage was the " Spencer Spanking Plan" You established agreed upon rules, and if you didn't follow them you would accept a spanking from your wife as punishment for what you did, but when it was over all would be forgiven. I had my wife read this plan and she liked the idea as long as it only applied to me (as she said you are the one with the behavioral problems, not me). We discussed this suggested system in depth. My wife liked the idea because it balanced the power between us giving her the ability to punish my bad behavior and not just take it. I liked the idea, because I would rather take a spanking and get the matter resolved quickly than harbor long lasting bad feelings, silent treatment, nit picking and other forms of female retaliation. So we agreed that my wife could spank me when she felt it was deserved, and I would accept her decision. It also had the benefit that I wouldn't have to live in guilt for what I had done because I was being punished for wrong doing on my part. My wife and I grew up as kids when spanking was commonplace in the neighborhood where we lived and it didn't take her long to paddle me good when I needed it. Today our marriage is stronger than it has ever been, our intimacy has gotten even better than it was (and it was always good), and I have corrected bad behaviors and understanding of my wife's needs as well (through much better communications between us), I'm not spanked very often anymore. --- So Belle, tell your husband our story and discuss your issues with him and maybe you will have a happy ending to.

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    1. Thank you for your post. We obviously are not facing the changes of retirement, but you clearly are an alpha who changed so that interests me.
      Belle

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    2. Belle, the story told by anonymous parallels mine in general, but not every point. I was an alpha at work and submissive at home in my first DD relationship which was also a marriage. That taught me a great deal and I changed. Now in the second 24/7 DD FLR, not a marriage, I live in near heaven. She has complete control of the household and makes all the decisions regarding our relationship. I submit to punishments without question and we have no arguments, no silent periods, and every issue is closed after the spanking. I do not know Arthur at all, or if he can change, but like myself and anonymous above, it is not impossible for alpha males to see the light and change for the better of both themselves and the relationship/marriage.

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    3. Yes, Cowboy, this is exactly what I hope he is doing -- changing for the betterment of the marriage. Thanks.
      His name is not Arthur. I haven't given it.
      Belle

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  18. Hello Dan,
    It is interesting to read what I wrote 3 years ago. It was obvious then that I don’t really understand the “why,” and 3 years and quite a few spankings later I am still not that much closer to really understanding why I want, crave, and need DD, though from participating in this blog, I am slowly gaining at least some understanding.

    Now on to this weeks specific questions. But first off, I could care less whether I am type A or whatever. I hate labels such as this, since they always oversimplify things; people are very complex, and labels never even come close to adequately describing a person. Also, I think we tend to be quite dishonest when we do start labeling ourselves and others. After all, don’t most men want to think of themselves as big and strong, natural leaders, etc.? Anyway, end of rant…

    “Why do you want to dominate in some contexts but not in others?” I want to dominate in those situations that I need to look out for my own interests and those of my loved ones. Mess with my family in any way and “beast mode” will activate. However, I also recognize that I can be overbearing, which can result in me being controlling and bossy, so I want there to be checks and balances, so other people can happily live with me, and I can live with myself.

    “Why do you resist authority in some contexts but crave it in others?” This is a complex question. On the one hand I very much crave IMPOSED discipline. On the other hand, I tend to rebel against any and all authority. I think that maybe these two go hand in hand; it is because I recognize my rebellious streak and how destructive it can potentially be that I want it to be tamed at least sometimes.

    The key to your question is “context.” The authority (and discipline) I crave is from someone who loves me and is doing it for my own good. I know that the policeman writing me a ticket is helping to ensure a safe and orderly society, which ultimately benefits me, but I also know that he is trying to meet his ticket quota, and his arrogant attitude seems to show that he is more of a control freak who thinks he is God, so I am not so convinced that he is motivated by my well-being. In the same way, most people have worked for a bad boss at some time or other. Again, by him running a tight ship, maybe the company prospers and we all benefit be continuing to receive paychecks, but is he being an asshole because he is wanting me to excel and the company to grow, or is it more because stepping on others helps him climb the corporate ladder more quickly?

    On the other hand, when I was young, if a parent disciplined me (which didn’t happen much, at least that I can remember) certainly they benefited some from it; maybe I was being a pest and they fixed that, for example. BUT, they loved me, and were always thinking about what was best for me. Maybe they punished out of annoyance, but they also were trying hard to help me to become less annoying, which helps throughout life.

    In the same way, if my wife punishes me, she can certainly gain from it, because it changes my attitude and behavior, and she can even get things done that she cares about. But the mutual benefits are far, far greater. I won’t list them all because we have talked about them before, but a few important ones are quick resolution to disputes, better communication, stronger, more intimate relationship, etc. Also, it is me that is asking for this, and she is motivated out of love. That makes her authority not only acceptable, but even desirable.

    I will ask my wife for her input on the questions for wives, and maybe she will have something to say on that front.

    -ZM

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    1. Yep, totally agree with all this. And, yes, I really resent 90% of the cops who give me tickets, because most of the time they are assholes on power trips. Not always, but often. There are some who wait in front of my home airport just waiting to ticket people who are in a hurry to catch a flight. I would kill for the opportunity to shove that ticket book up their collective ass.

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    2. ZM,
      You nailed this one on why we resist some kinds of authority (and punishment) and welcome others. It is the motivation of the disciplinarian, or love they express.I also agree with Dan about the speed trap Sammmy cop and my reaction is the same. They are a small part of a big problem: the spiraling dysfunction of our criminal justice system. We have a dangerous curve near our home AND they are never there because it's harder to catch violators. Instead they sit out on relatively safe freeways where the can pull you in easily without improving highway safety at all. Don't they realize what a bad impression they make with the public?
      Alan
      Alan

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    3. I always just get warnings, and we all know why: reverse sexism.
      Belle

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    4. Yeah, dealing with cops and multiple orgasms are about the only two things I resent about not being born a woman.

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    5. I have read that men can have multiple orgasms without ejaculating, but I have never met anyone who has done it or been with someone who did it. They are a wonderful thing!

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  19. I introduced husband (then boyfriend) to Domestic Discipline, so him and I don't have the same experience most people on this blog have. Spanking grew out of chastity and crossdressing that I wanted him to do. It started out for security, since I'm an Assistant Manager at a large hotel in a large eastern US city, so sometimes I have to work nights while he went out to bars.

    One thing he's taught me is I don't have to settle for something I don't like. He told me early on he liked pornography and masturbation. I don't like either one, but figured i had to put up with it to keep him. So out of security came a desire to change his pornography/masturbation habit or at least let him know it had consequences (I know, it was last week's topic, but, I couldn't post about it).

    He complained about being kept in chastity, so I brought up the subject of spanking and humiliation as mot really an alternative to chastity, but also as other tools to use to change his behavior or let him know I don't like something. So it wasn't even a reaction from him like "You want me to let you do WHAT and let WHO watch?". We talked about it and he agreed to it. I think a lot of what motivated him to agree to being physically disciplined was to avoid chastity, at least at first.

    What's funny is once I found my groove as a disciplinarian and introduced some new implements, he's actually begged for chastity rather than certain implements across his bare bottom or certain people getting to witness him getting disciplined. Of course, I've given him the chastity he begged for, AFTER using one or more of those implements on him or letting certain people watch a Disciplinary Session.

    He was already used to some forms of discipline, so the spanking wasn't that hard for me to get him to agree to.

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    1. "What's funny is once I found my groove as a disciplinarian and introduced some new implements, he's actually begged for chastity rather than certain implements across his bare bottom or certain people getting to witness him getting disciplined." We don't do chastity, but I totally get how an interest in trying some particular implements can really bite you in the ass (literally). There are a few that I think, "Why in the world did I buy that damn [paddle]?"

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  20. Thanks so much, everyone. I have reread everything and made some additional comments. He and I have a phone date Saturday and DD will be the topic!
    Belle

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  21. My Friends group of drinking buddies makes up limericks for any situation. Since I am thinking about this *constantly*, here is what I came up with last night:

    There once was a woman named Belle,
    Her marriage did not go so well,
    Her husband was addled,
    She took up the paddle,
    And now he is under her spell!

    May it be so!
    Belle

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  22. Ok, seriously, though, what are some DD guidelines for him and her? Here is what I have so far:

    He:
    Agrees to accept punishment without complaint.
    Accepts that she decides the severity of the punishment.
    Lets go of any resentment about the punishment or the reason for it.
    Promises to work on improving the behavior for which he is punished.

    She:
    Promises to explain the reasons for punishment.
    Takes care not to injure him during punishment.
    Lets go of any resentment about the reasons for punishment.
    Promises not to misuse her authority.

    I'm sure there are more. I am nervous about tomorrow's meeting. Help!
    Belle

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    1. Belle

      You clearly have been paying attention. I am impressed. The only thing I might add is to remember the power of consistency. If you punish him for something today, make sure you repeat the punishment if he does the same thing tomorrow or next week. ( he will test you on this, so beware that). The other suggestion is long term: work on your scolding /lecture style. Anything you say to him will have a ten -fold impact if you say it when his pants are down and you have a brush or paddle in your hand. He will internalize the words you speak to him during punishment and if they are clear and direct it can have a profound effect on future behavior

      Best luck Saturday ( although I almost feel he is the one who needs the best wishes). You are on your way
      Alan

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    2. I totally agree with Alan on the importance of consistency. Also, I think his point about lecturing may be particularly important in your case, since your #1 gripe has been his attitude toward you. The goal for you would seem to be getting to where you send the unmistakably clear message that his previous attitude won't be tolerated, which may mean adopting a pretty forceful attitude yourself.

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    3. Something that I think helped us a lot starting out was being a little more systematic. We agreed on things that would be punished, and assigned a certain *minimum* number of swats with the paddle to each offense. She could give more, but not less, than that number of swats for each offense. I think that was important in helping her mentally adjust to delivering a real punishment spanking, because it wasn't all on her to figure out how hard to go. Also, if you both agree to do this and that punishments should be real, I would recommend getting a real paddle and/or a real punishment strap. Hairbrushes are iconic, but I think it takes a lot of (a) experience; and (b) determination to deliver anything remotely close to real punishment with one. Now, bath brushes -- those are a totally different story. They are *very* effective.

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    4. Belle,
      Ditto on all of Dan's points. Also I don't know of your guy has had a real spanking as an adult. If not, he is going to be shocked at how much it hurts and how bad he wants it to stop. Be prepared for that and making sure he has that experience and understand it is definitely part of DD. You will see a pretty radical transformation just from that –and if he doesn’t submit to it, you will know early that it’s not going to work. Tough love maybe but very important
      Alan

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    5. Yes, I get from this blog that I may need to act much stricter than I really feel, both verbally and physically. It has to be *real* punishment or he will not take me seriously. Which has been our major issue and is what attracts me to DD: I can *make* him take me seriously.

      I don't know if he has experienced an adult spanking. I plan to ask him that tomorrow. But I am not going to even try this unless he wants the punishment to be real and painful and agrees to guidelines similar to what I listed above.

      I also need to find out from him if this is a sexual fetish because what he needs to get is not going to feel good in any way. I do hear from you all that he could be accepting of painful punishment and still sexualize it before and after. Not sure how I will handle that if it is the case.

      My plan is that if the phone call goes well to meet the following weekend for a trial punishment. I am already writing my list of issues! We have his guilt and my resentment to deal with before we get back together, and a hard paddling might help us both!

      I haven't thought about implements yet. I don't have a bath brush. Maybe I will make him supply it!
      Belle

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    6. A couple of more thoughts on this. Regarding Alan's comment, "If not, he is going to be shocked at how much it hurts and how bad he wants it to stop," I agree with that if the spanking is gets to the right threshold. But, that can be tough if you're not experienced. I would say my first one was a let-down, because I had gotten very worked up preparing myself mentally for what I thought might happen, complete with sobbing, etc., and it wasn't remotely close to that. In large part that was because (a) she DID use a hairbrush; (b) it was the best I could find, but few of those you'll find in common retail shops are heavy or solid enough; and (c) she didn't know how hard to go. Now, she made *major* strides very quickly, but only once we dropped the hairbrush and the OTK position.

      If you do decide to go with the bath brush, the Body Shop has one that is very fit for purpose and seem to be popular among spankos. In fact, I wonder whether *anyone* has ever used one for an actual bath. https://www.thebodyshop.com/en-us/body/accessories/cactus-long-handle-body-brush/p/p000057?activeVariant=1094655&ds_kid=92700048702425086&utm_placement=Moringa+Body+Mist&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI84Pm3qjJ5QIVMBitBh3qUA_uEAQYASABEgJ51vD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

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    7. Belle

      You don't need to administer a severe spanking the first few times. Just a sound spanking that makes him realize this is not fun and games might suffice while you work through the logistics some. The first real spanking will be an epiphany for him and one that might work better if administered a few weeks in. Also Dan is right about the bath brush but it is better used as,your authority grows and he has had some experience. There are some wicked sauna brushes, clothes brushes and paddles that do the job almost as well. Save the bath brush for later. You will get plenty of chance to use it
      Alan

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    8. I disagree a bit on the bath brush. I think it would be fairly easy for a novice to handle, perhaps easier than many paddles.

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  23. Thanks for the link, Dan. It looks wicked! Many women and a few men use it for its intended purpose, according to the reviews. I played junior varsity tennis in high school so I don't think I will have difficulty hitting the target!
    Belle

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  24. Ok, sorry I am being obsessive, but another question. Does he have to be bare butt the first time? Because if I see his bare butt and especially his equipment, I am going to want something else besides punishing him. So I was thinking of making him keep on his briefs.
    Belle

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    1. I think that's fine at this stage. Paradoxically, as you get more experienced and probably start spanking harder, or as you start using more challenging tools, I think that bare butt is important so you can see how much impact you're having, literally. It's kind of a safety thing.

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    2. I don't disagree with Dan very often but bare is the way to go I believe even and maybe especially for the first one. Being spanked with clothes on takes away the intimacy, the embarrassment and the vulnerability that is so much of what makes it all work. Do it if you must but its not ideal( and BTW its not a beginners normal tool: but spanking him after sex sends a message he will not miss )

      Alan

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    3. Alan is probably right. Not gonna comment on spanking after sex. Not going there. Nope. No way.

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  25. Alan, I shudder in fear in case my wife ever actually does do the post-orgasm spanking. From everything I have read, it takes everything to a whole different level.
    -ZM

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  26. Absolutely , it is the nuclear option and I was not seriously suggesting she use it for a long time.Helen however made a pretty good case for it always being a wife's option and I have a wife that agrees. But Belle has some work to do before she even thinks about it as an option.
    Alan

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  27. I don't plan to reward him with sex either before or after punishment. But sometimes my weakness for him takes over. During our three years apart we have had several unplanned "encounters" where we met for one purpose (we own a house together) and it led to bed. So my concern is that if we meet for punishment, it be just that.
    Very nervous about our phone call!
    Belle

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    1. Belle
      Sex before a spanking is no reward, believe me. But a bigger point is that in DD you control sex, when you have it, where, how much and ( for some of us) whether he gets to cum. Teaching him that might be as important as spanking him.
      Alan

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  28. To me that sounds more like FLR then DD. I actually like him initiating sex, as it shows how desirable he finds me. I always can say no, though I almost never do.
    That's a key part of why I am here: I don't want to take away his swagger by agreeing to DD. I don't want to go from him being dominant to me being dominant. I want us both to have our areas where we take charge and areas where we decide together as equals. And I am happy to hear from some here that such an arrangement is possible. KD and Rosa, Dan and Anne, Liz and Arthur, and maybe others have some elements of what I think I want.
    Tonight's conversation will tell a lot. I will report back here if our conversation is not relevant to the new week's topic.
    Wish me luck!
    Belle

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    1. FWIW, we don't have the orgasm control element in our DD that Alan describes

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  29. This is Belle. Here is the "why" of my husband "Jimmy." He sent me a long email before our phone date. To summarize (some of this I already knew of course).
    He grew up with an authoritarian father who used the belt on all three boys. Mom was a housewife and Dad was definitely in charge. He never bucked his Dad and actually liked that there were set rules.
    Right after high school he went into the military, where of course he also had to follow strict rules. Then he went to college on the GI bill at a strict Christian college where he met me. We got together quickly his senior year, so suddenly he was working and living with me and under no authority. He was the authority, and not knowing how to do it, he copied his father. He said he felt lost and knew he was making mistakes and wished that he had some accountability.
    He said he responds well to strictness enforced by corporal punishment, and even before we broke up he began fantasizing about me setting limits for him and enforcing them with the belt. As he saw me grow during our separation, he became more convinced that I could take on this role. But he feels embarrassed by the whole idea and how i might react.
    That was his email. I will tell about our phone call in a separate post!
    Belle

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    1. Hi Belle. I have to admit I'm a little surprised by the "strict Christian college" part, given your fairly open dialog about sex in your previous comments. Though, that's probably my own biases showing. I grew up in the Christian tradition, though I was mostly non-practicing by the time I met my wife even though I still read a lot about religious practices, philosophy, history, etc. covering may traditions.

      Probably a separate topic at some point, but I wonder how many men struggle with some needs to give up control, defer to authority, etc., and also screw up their marriages because they are modeling their fathers. My own father was a very strong personality (and gave me one very hard belting that I could never forget), but he was even more anti-authoritarian than I am. So, he was incredibly intimidating but paradoxically almost never set any rules.

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    2. The strict Christian college is why I wasn't enjoying it and I lasted less than a year! My parents sent me. The only place they would help pay for.
      Belle

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  30. This is Belle. On the phone call I took a strict tone I had never used with Jimmy before. It worked; he was very agreeable and even said "Yes Ma'am" on several occasions, Though I don't think of myself as a Ma'am.
    I told him I appreciated his email explanation of why he wanted DD. I said I was only interested if the punishment was real and painful. He agreed. I went through the eight rules I came up with. He agreed. He added that if he did not keep his promise of improved behavior that the punishment should be repeated but more severe.
    I talked at length about wanting him not to change his personality, just some of his behavior. I told him I do not want to be his dominant, boss, or mother. That I wanted us to be equals and DD was a tool to ensure that. He agreed. I told him I was a career woman now and would not tolerate him trying to restrict my work. He apologized for having done that.
    I told him I thought we should meet next weekend for an initial punishment session that would address his behavior that led to our separation. I said the punishment might help him with his guilt and help me with my anger. He agreed.
    I said that there would be absolutely no sex at this session and maybe he should keep his underwear on. He asked that the spanking be bare bottom and promised to "behave."
    I told him this would not be a hand spanking and asked if he had thought of implements. He said he would like me to use a wide leather belt like his Dad used, and that he had one. I said I would try it but that he also needed to buy a bath brush. He was a little taken aback at that and hesitant. I reminded him of the rule that I was in charge of severity. He said he would get a brush.
    He asked me if this meant we were getting back together. I said not yet. That I needed to see how serious he was about changing his behavior toward me, and that the punishment session would help show that. But I also asked him to write me another email about how his behavior would change.
    We then chatted a bit about other things. At the end of the call he said he was nervous. I said "You should be" and laughed. Then I hung up!
    Now I need to practice with a belt! Any tips?
    Belle

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    1. Hi Belle. Sounds like a great call! Great move on your part to condition getting back together on him demonstrating a serious commitment to change.

      On belts, I'm definitely not an expert on swinging one. My general advice is to focus on a very deliberate swing. It takes some force to make a belt really hurt. But, you also have to be careful about not striking too high. So, I'd take a few practice swings, concentrating on aiming to hit right on the thickest part of the butt. Then, take aim carefully but swing hard.

      Others may have a better view on this than I do, but if you are using a belt and don't have much experience, it may help to have him lay on the bed instead of bending over something. It may be easier to both swing hard and hit a narrow targeted area if you are swing the belt down, in the same arc over and over, instead of swinging from the side.

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    2. My husband's interest in spanking also involved leather belts ( delivered by his mom). So you need to include a belt that he relates to in early discipline. But belts are pretty feeble tools for disciplining an adult male. If you stay with leather for discipline, shop for a good mid size or small leather strap with a handle ( Can-iac among others has some good one)You are smart to insist that he buy a bath brush. That communicates to him that you are in charge and he will be spanked with whatever you choose and his spanking fetish isn't going to control it. Move away from the belt as soon as possible saving it for special "treats" But a caution on the bath brush, especially the long handled one. It is a fearsome tool and you need to learn to use it.The skill is really in the snap of the wrist and your arc of swing and only practice will make you expert with it.Start slowly but be firm.My husband was a tackle for a big ten school in college and I can make him blubber like a 12 year old with that brush. Make him feel it the first couple of times but build up to its full force.Good luck
      Sammy

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    3. I tend to agree with Sammy about belts, but I would say they *can be* feeble, not that they always are. I think a thick one, swung hard enough, can make the required impression. But, I do agree that a leather strap is a big improvement. I'm not a huge fan of Cane-iac for straps. Just have a cheap feel. I would invest in a good quality strap from The London Tanners.

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  31. Thanks, Sammy and Dan. I am not going anywhere near a bed with him (because I don't trust myself), but he has one of those couches with big rolled arms and if he lies over that with his hands and face to the floor I think I can swing straight down with the belt. What's the best position for the bath brush?
    Belle

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    1. I think over a couch you'd probably want to swing from the side, as coming straight down in that position seems pretty likely to hit the lower back. I do think that position could work just fine for the bath brush if you are swinging from the side and down. I will leave it to other to opine on whether the bath brush can be used OTK -- to me it seems like the handle might be too long, but we've never tried.

      FYI, I've posted some drawings above to illustrate some of the options.

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    2. With the bath brush, you can bend him over a couch or the side of a bed. Probably half of my husbands sessions with the BB are in the bath room with him bending over his sink and sticking his bum way out and keeping it there. Its probably my favorite position because its hard to miss the target and god does he hate it
      Sammy

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  32. Thanks for the drawings! Maybe I am off base, but my idea is to have him the opposite way over the arm of the couch from those pics, so that his legs are on the couch and his face and hands are on the floor and his butt is facing the ceiling. Then I could bring the belt straight down. What do you think?

    He texted me that he has ordered a bath brush but he doesn't know if it will be in on time. I texted back that is not good enough and maybe he needs to pay priority delivery or take himself shopping but he has to have the brush by Saturday!
    Belle

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    1. I haven't seen it done that way, but there's a first time for everything. :-)

      Assuming he has a mall close by, have him go to the Body Shop. I guarantee they will have those brushes on display. It will be humbling for him to have to buy it himself and in person, wondering whether the sales people know what it's to be used for! Seriously, fifteen years after the fact I still recall vividly walking through the mall trying to find a heavy hair brush the day my wife said she was willing to give DD a try. It was a failed mission in the end, as all I found was some lightweight commercial brushes. I quickly learned that high quality hair brushes are mostly part of a bygone era, and the few that are out there cost a fortune and are hard to find. But, thankfully for you, a bath brush that is guaranteed to get his attention is probably waiting at your local mall!

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    2. Believe it or not, when people say you can get anything off Amazon.com, or Ebay; you pretty much can. I have bought a heavy Fraternity paddle, and a very large long handle wooden industrial scrub brush off Amazon delivered to my door, and nobody knows what's inside the box. These were bought as gifts for the Dominatrix I visit, and she was more than happy to receive them, and try them out before I left her place. I don't buy off Ebay, but in looking around, there is everything on Ebay from English tawses, to authentic razor strops. The person selling it don't need to know that a razor is the last purpose you have in mind for it. Need a riding whip, or leather strap? Don't shell out major cash at a sex shop. Go to a western tack shop that sells all sorts of leather equestrian apparatus at a fraction of the cost.

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  33. I love the humbling aspect! They ought to print "Not just for the shower" on it! I will tell him to get one.
    Belle

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  34. Last night's meeting went very, very well. That's all I want to say at this point. Thank you for this blog, Dan, and thanks to those here for your information, advice, and support. You all are awesome!
    Belle

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    1. Glad to hear it! Hope you'll share some details at some point, but I get if you want to keep it private.

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  35. First of all, he made me dinner! He has never done that. Then we talked for three hours about our relationship before we got down to business. He still wanted to pay for his guilt and I still wanted to take out my anger. He went over the couch and I used the belt. It was hard to control and I hit him some places I didn't mean to that really hurt. I told him I wanted to switch to the bath brush. (which he had gift-wrapped. Is that funny or what?) He did not reply, which I took as agreement. I started out slow and not too hard but he was definitely feeling it. Then my anger came out and I let him have it. He started apologizing like crazy and promising to never boss me around again. That was very satisfying! But I also started feeling sorry for him. Finally I threw down the bath brush and told him I was going into the kitchen and he needed to pull himself together. If I had let him hug me it would have been all over.
    He was in the bathroom a long time. I didn't think he would ever come out. I think he didn't want to face me. I put on my coat and said I had to leave. He came out and I gave him a quick hug and asked him to write me an email. Which he did. A long one that night where he thanked me for spanking him and talked about what it meant and said he hoped I didn't think less of him. I told him I didn't at all! We have talked on the phone every day since and he is taking me out Saturday.
    I feel like I have forgiven him, and Dan and others helped me do it. I am hopeful for the future.
    Belle

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    1. That all sounds really great! How did delivering your first spanking feel?

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  36. So many emotions. I went home and cried and don't really know why.
    At first I felt nervous. Holding the belt by the buckle felt awkward and then I hit his thighs more than once and he really jumped. When I switched to the bath brush I felt more comfortable. Then I began to feel really angry. I *wanted* to hurt him. When he started apologizing and promising I felt empowered. But as I continued I felt sorry for him. Then I felt bad that he was so embarrassed. Then on the way home I felt numb. Then when I got home to my apartment, after leaving the house we lived in and still own, I broke down.
    But I do feel it was a really good experience and that my feelings will be much more under control if and when I spank him again. I don't think I will get back together with him without DD. I need something powerful to keep him in check. But
    I want to "vanilla" date for a while and see how we both feel.
    Belle

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    1. Thanks for the honest summary of the emotions you experienced. On the concrete issue of tools, I think belts and canes are not great options for beginners, as both can be pretty hard to aim and control.

      Best wishes on the vanilla dating.

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    2. That bath brush you suggested is wicked. I'm 105 and he's 205 and he was ready to do anything I said! You helped a lot, Dan. I would kiss you (on the cheek) if your wife would let me. 😘
      Belle

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    3. Picture me blushing. :-)

      I have never once heard a disciplined husband speak about the bath brush with anything but respect or fear. It's also one of the few really, really effective instruments that you can leave out in plain sight without fear of outing yourself as into spanking. Though, honestly, if I saw a bath brush out in the open in someone else's home, I definitely would wonder what they are into.

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  37. Wow, did he wine me and dine me Saturday. We are courting again and it feels good. He is chasing and I am playing hard to get ... and I have the bath brush in reserve. Sweet!
    Belle

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  38. Another great date. Over dessert he shyly asked if I was ever going to spank him again. I said, "Just keep what you're doing and you might get lucky." We both laughed. So far he has the macho I like without the mach I don't like. Yay!

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    1. Did you get the sense he wants you to do it again, or wants to avoid it? If he's like most of us, it's probably both at the same time.

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  39. Oh yes, he does. I could tell by the way he asked. Embarrassed but definitely wanting it ... until the time comes, that is.
    May ask my mom tonight!
    Belle

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  40. A long time ago KD suggested that I talk to my parents about Jimmy, and I rejected that suggestion. But as things have gone on and Jimmy and I have been dating, I changed my mind. I think it's a good idea. So I talked with my mom last night. I asked her if she thought Jimmy and I should get back together. And she said that she thought I was Stronger now and would be able to handle him better. And I asked her if she had any suggestions. And she thought for a moment and then she said that the way to control a man is through food and sex. What you give them and what you withhold from them. And she said that was all she was going to say on the matter. Then she gave me a hug and told me that it was obvious that Jimmy and I are in love. I thanked her and that was it. So thanks for your suggestion KD.
    Belle

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  41. Hi Belle,
    I am glad I wondered back this way to see if things were working out and am very impressed how well in fact they seem to have gone. Maybe Dan will give us a synopsis of your progress in a current posting. I am sure many others will take pleasure in your good news.You have handled things with great skill and judgement and deserve credit for "wading in" as you have and making the pieces all fit together. He( Jimmy) also deserves respect for opening up to you,acknowledging his needs and( apparently)accepting the consequences for his past behavior.Dan is right about that batbrush. It is an awesome tool for commanding respect and obedience. I wish both of you the very best of luck going forward but you might not need much luck as you strike me as someone who has the aptitude of a natural disciplinarian. Please stay with us and contribute to the discussions as the blog goes forward into a new year.
    Alan

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  42. Hi Belle: Perhaps after you have had a couple of more get togethers with Jimmy over the back of the couch you could try suggesting this. If you live in a large urban city, I have read of couples who will meet with a Professional Dominatrix so she can show, and instruct the wife on how to use the various implements effectively without causing injury.
    As I have no significant other, I go to a Pro Domme periodically just because I feel like it. She has paddles, canes, tawses, bath brushes, straps, even a fake samjok, etc. I am not suggesting as an ongoing situation, but just once, or at most twice where the Pro Domme could demonstrate the use of various items, and then let you practice, and learn from her while Jimmy is being the willing bent over participant, while following the instructions that are given out to him from you both.

    Keep in mind this will do nothing to repair any emotional problems within your relationship, it is for you to learn how to use various spanking implements, so you can be more assertive in your relationship. If this idea is of interest to both of you (possibly not), tell Jimmy to research, and find a suitable Dominatrix, and make the appointment. I would suggest no less than two hours. Dominatrixes are not always located in sleazy, seedy areas of town. Many are regular women, who operate out of the basements of their houses, just trying to make some extra money, and just happen to like doing this kind of sex work. Also just because a dominatrix may only be twenty five does not mean she's not a good fit, or a druggie looking for money to score a fix. You do have to do your research though.

    One blog you could look at is "Strict Julie Spanks", or contact her for advice on instrument use, or how to contact a Dominatrix. However her blog is a whole different direction from this one. Totally different! So I don't know if this at all interests you, and if not, that is absolutely fine, but I thought I would just put it here, for you to at least see.

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  43. Hello again Belle: A couple of afterthoughts. If this is something you care to pursue, you will have to decide when the time is right, if ever at all. It doesn't need to be anytime to soon. Secondly I forgot to mention that a Dominatrix doesn't have to be decked out in all her leather, and gothic stuff they wear, nor does he have to put on her bitch persona. She would likely be just as happy to have blue jeans, and a T-shirt, and talk in a normal voice to you both. You would just be there to learn a thing or two, and it's nothing to be too nervous about, she does this type of stuff all the time, and has done, and seen things you can't imagine already in her life.

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