Saturday, February 3, 2018

The Forum -- Vol. 238 -- Tears and more tears

"I was better after I had cried, than before--more sorry, more aware of my own ingratitude, more gentle.” - Charles Dickens from Great Expectations


Hello all.  I hope you had a great week.  Welcome back to the The Forum.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationships. 

Well, one month down in this new year.  Honestly, I did a little better than usual at keeping to some resolutions around diet and exercise.  Not perfect, by a long shot, but not terrible either.  Though, it did start drifting a bit toward the end, and I'm going to have to whip myself back onto the better track I was on.  Or, a certain someone is going to have to do it for me! But, all in all, 2018 is still looking better than 2017.  But, I recently came across this link that gave me reason to think that perhaps I judged 2017 a little too harshly: 
https://qz.com/1169003/the-99-best-things-that-happened-in-2017/.  Every once in a while, it's good to focus on the positive, which these days generally seems to require completely cutting yourself off from the daily news cycle.

A couple of weeks ago, we closed another poll.  This one on a subject that long-time readers know is particularly near and dear to my heart.  To the point that I consciously try not to overdo it.  Which is difficult, because it was probably the very most important facet of domestic discipline to me in the beginning, and one that I found simultaneously fascinating and terrifying.  That topic is tears, specifically, being brought to real tears by an adult spanking.  The results from the most recent poll are in: 
 
I have not but want to:                                            46%
I have not and do not want to:                                12%
I have but only a few tears:                                    17%
I have, including crying hard or sobbing:               22% 

I've run variations of this poll a couple of times, though this is the first time I've asked whether those who have not cried want to.  The results as to the relative proportions of those who have cried and those who have not has stayed fairly stable across the polls, with about half saying they have not cried, and with the other half somewhat closely divided between those who have shed only a few tears and those who say an adult spanking has led to hard crying or sobbing.   

This year's spin on the poll does seem to show pretty clearly that of those who have not cried, a very solid majority would like to. You definitely can put me in that camp.  The prospect of crying was probably the most significant driver of the emotional reaction I had when I first discovered domestic discipline by reading about it on-line.  Stories of men being brought to tears over their wives knees transfixed me, though not in a wholly positive way.  More like being in a car and knowing you are about to crash and can't avoid it.  It left me with butterflies in my stomach, though that really understates things.  I couldn't sleep.  I couldn't think of much of anything else for the couple of days between when I first stumbled on the concept and when I brought it to my wife's attention. I found the whole prospect both utterly compelling and utterly repulsive.  It both fascinated and scared the living hell out of me.  The thought of letting go of control so thoroughly that I would sob in front of my wife as a result of a paddling or strapping she delivered really shook me to my core in a fundamental way.  It scared me like nothing else really every had or has since, yet I found myself compulsively drawn to it.   


This fascination with tears shows up even in my reaction to spanking-related art and media.  Pictures that show real tears as the result of a spanking still give me butterflies in the stomach:

 
Though, it probably says a lot about the factors that prevent men from crying that in order to find a good drawing of an adult spanking resulting in tears, I have to go with a woman spankee, because the art depicting men crying is almost completely devoid of anything resembling actual emotional release.

Yet, here we are so many years later, and I still have not cried. Even as a result of spankings that plainly fall into the "severe" range.  So, while the spanking fantasy literature may suggest it's all about effort on her part, that's clearly not the case.  Instead, I would describe it as a necessary but insufficient part of the recipe for tears.


While it's impossible for me to pinpoint exactly why, I've come to believe there are certain factors that play into why some men get there and some don't:

Severity:  A spanking must be severe enough to "get the job done."  But, at least in my case if it starts out very severe from the start using a really painful instrument like a skinny wooden paddle or a rubber strap, I absolutely will not be brought to tears because, paradoxically, it is just too hard and I can't stop myself from resisting it.  I cannot stop myself from trying to "man up" and just get through each swat.  No matter how much I go into the spanking with the intent of "taking my medicine" and leaving myself open to it in a way that might let me release into tears, I just cannot do it if the pain level is too much at the beginning. 

Duration: My wife tends to spank very hard, but sometimes so much so that my bottom gets in bad shape quickly and then she decides to terminate the spanking.  I suspect that duration plays at least as big a role as severity in bringing about real tears and that sobbing is more likely to happen when it starts really occurring to him that this spanking is going to go on way past his ability to "take it like a man."
  
Immediacy and remorse:  Oftentimes, I'm being spanked for something that we both agree is something I should be spanked for but, (a) it's something that didn't have any real impact on her or anyone else and, hence, I don't really feel all that guilty about it; or (b) so much time has passed between the offense and the consequences that whatever guilt I once felt has dissipated.

Lecturing: Related to the presence or absence of remorse, I suspect that a very strong lecture before the spanking would help soften me up emotionally and leave me more vulnerable and, hence, more likely to cry.  This has, unfortunately, never been my wife's strong suit, though she has been getting better at it recently.  

"Manliness": Some men's identities are more bound up with the concept of being "manly" with all that it entails.  Unfortunately, one thing it may entail is a very deep-seated resistance to showing vulnerability and an inability to easily display that vulnerability or weakness.  Those identity traits are actually strengths that can help us get through a lot, accomplish a lot and succeed in out-sized ways. But, like all such traits, they can come at a price when they become excessive or one-dimensional. That price may be a very strong resistance to embarrassment and emotional vulnerability, both of which crying from a spanking would likely entail.

Pain tolerance:  The plain fact is, I have a lead bottom and a weirdly high pain threshold.  I've suffered some fairly significant injuries in the past, but they just didn't hurt me as much as they seem to hurt other people.  So, getting me to a point at which the pain becomes truly unbearable is a daunting prospect.  

Encouragement from the disciplinary spouse:  Those of us who have a strong emotional resistance to crying may also fear embarrassment more than others.  In those cases, I think the disciplinary wife probably has a role in facilitating tears not just by lecturing sternly then spanking severely, but also by letting her husband know before and during the spanking that not only is she comfortable with him crying, but she wants him to do so. My wife and I have discussed this several times, and I think her attitude has progressed a lot as she has become more comfortable in her role, going from acknowledging that my crying might disturb her because it it shows is hurting me "too much," to getting over that and being OK if I do cry at some point, to mildly disappointed that it has not happened yet. 

Determination to Deliver Discipline.  While this may not qualify as a truly separate category, I do think that tears are at least much more likely to result when she (a) wants them to happen; (b) is determined to bring them about, and (b) is determined to do so because she is determined that the spanking will be given and received as a real, true disciplinary experience.  ZD alluded to this a few weeks ago when he shared with us that he had finally cried from being spanked.  As he told us, it came about largely because his wife announced it advance that it was going to, period.

So, with that very long-winded opening, tell us your situation, hopes and fears where tears are concerned.  Have you been brought to tears?  Would you like to be?  If you have, were there certain things that enabled you to get there? If not, what do you think is holding you back?  For those of you who have cried, what role did your spouse playing in getting you there, and have they told you how they feel about you crying as a result of their disciplinary efforts?
 
I hope you all have a great week.

29 comments:

  1. Tears again?! Jeez, you are at least as obsessed with tears as I am with feet! LOL ;-)

    That said, I answered 'have not and don't want to' because I can't really count the one or two instances of my eyes welling up over 38 years of doing this stuff as qualifying. And in those instances, it was my own feelings of having caused a loved one hurt that made me feel that sad more than the punishment being administered. If tomorrow I end up crying over Rosa's lap, so be it, it won't destroy my self-image, but I can't say it's any kind of "goal". (Besides, I have the reputation among family and friends of not crying at ANYTHING......except movies! I can go through an entire funeral without crying and then sob away at a viewing of "Big Fish".) Rosa attributes it to the "Pollack" in me! LOL

    Anyway, your points are very well thought out (as usual) but I don't feel I have a whole lot to contribute on this one since I don't see any of the connection between the efficacy of punishment and a lachrymose outcome. (In fact, memes like the one you posted about "If he's not really crying....you're not really trying" make me angry enough to want to punch the person who wrote it until HE'S crying. Here we are trying to encourage our women to be confident and aggressive and then we are going to judge her performance based on the elusive outcome of causing tears. ARGHH!)

    Now, perhaps if captured, imprisoned and tortured beyond my capacity, I might scream and cry like a baby......but I can't see that happening from a spanking no matter how vicious. In fact, if a spanking is TOO severe, I will probably more likely get angry and resentful than weepy, since the person doing this to me is not some Nazi Commandant but someone I trust and love.

    But if someone IS looking for tears as a goal, and past spankings haven't triggered them, perhaps one could use other methods? Maybe a lecture might do it? Maybe telling the miscreant he can't watch the Super Bowl might do it? Maybe being forced to dice onions while being being spanked over the kitchen counter? I really don't know. And I think it is probably a very individual trigger for each person. What does it for one guy may very well not do it for another.

    And I agree that maybe the woman in charge needs to want it to happen as you suggested? I can see how that could help. In my case, Rosa does not seem to care whether tears come or not and in fact probably prefers if they didn't. So basically if Rosa is looking to punish me for some misbehavior, she knows what to do and she will no doubt be very effective. But she's looking for better behavior not tears. Besides, if she wants tears from me, she only has to suggest re-watching "Forrest Gump".

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    1. Now, I've done exactly three topics in four years -- the current one, its predecessor in 2016, and another in 2014. How many "feet" topics are you up to? And, are there *any* captions you *do* like? ;-)

      I too cry at movies but not at spankings. Though, it's even more likely to happen from sappy songs.

      I agree TOO severe can be an impediment. And, your imprisonment and torture examples do illustrate that whatever it is that does lead some men to cry from a spanking probably is more than the pain itself. Soldiers get shot in war and don't cry. Extreme athletes and rodeo bull riders get compound fractures and don't cry. So, it's unlikely some swats with a paddle will do the trick in and of themselves, unless something more is going on.

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    2. You: "Now, I've done exactly three topics in four years -- the current one, its predecessor in 2016, and another in 2014. How many "feet" topics are you up to? And, are there *any* captions you *do* like?"

      OK, OK, you got me on that one, but even if you stand on the lame technicality of how often you posted tears as a 'topic', that doesn't take into consideration all the times it's come up in conversation (which is a lot)......but no need to turn this tear-thing into a pissing contest....since dragging yet another body fluid into this will only prompt more confusion....and dampness. ;-) And, hey! There are plenty of captions I like............... but admittedly they are almost always humorous ones. As for kinky ones? Well maybe one out of every 3000 I see. The rest make me want to cry. ;-) LOL

      And if you know you cry at sappy songs, why not play a few while you are getting whacked? ;-) Of course, since you DON'T like feet, maybe if your punishment was to kiss a pair of sweaty feet that had been cooped up in boots all day you would tear up? You know, kind of like doing something you don't enjoy while sniffing onions? LOL

      All the best, my friend! I love your wit. (Brings tears to my eyes.)



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  2. This male does, my spankings are for correction, she insures I have paid for my misdeed and that the spanking got my attention. It is with the hairbrush that I end up crying. So not all males have that strong will not to cry, I being one.

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  3. In my opinion there is a reason so many instinctively wish for tears. They cleanse the soul in a way nothing else can.

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    1. I don't know the extent to which that is a source of the wish, but I have no doubt it is a nice by-product. Hence, the Dickens quote above.

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  4. Hope those who wish for it, have a SuperBawl Sunday. I know. Too corny even for me. Ha

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    1. SuperBawlSunday? Tomy, that is genius!!!! :-)

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    2. Corny is definitely one word for it. :-)

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    3. Dan,yes, lol, corny. But I am a woman, I like corny things ;-) Oh, and I love your posts about tears. Keep them coming, please.

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    4. I guess Tom Trump, oops I mean Brady, had a SuperBawl Sunday.

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  5. Hi Dan
    I fall solidly in the 'no tears' side of this one.
    Like most men I was always hard wired to 'man up' when taking a punishment.
    I attended school in the UK where corporal punishment was the order of the day, mostly for us boys.
    I can't recall how many times I had to bend over in front of the entire class for 6 of the best on my backside with the cane or slipper.
    Of course with all your classmates , especially the cute girls, watching you basically acted as if it didn't hurt at all.Not even a grimace as you returned defiantly to your seat.
    In fact it hurt like heck and it was hard to walk afterwards never mind sit!
    You were viewed as a sort of hero almost.
    I believe that always stayed with me although I do not always take a punishment as bravely as I did in my youth.
    As there is no audience other than my wife I permit myself not to supress how the spanking feels but it never goes as far as tears or crying.

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    1. Hi Glen. That is a really interesting angle on this. I've never quite figured out whether the British proclivity for spanking (aka the "English vice) is a cause, an effect, or unrelated to its reputation for placing enormous value on maintaining a "stiff upper lip."

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    2. I've never quite figured it out either Dan , but am sure there is a connection.

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  6. Dan
    Tears are not that important to me. At one point in my life I was an actress. I can tell you manufacturing tears is the easiest thing to do. What I want to see from Peter is true contrition. An acceptance that the punishment was in place was something we both agreed upon.
    Anna

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    1. Thanks, Anna. I must not be much of an actor, unfortunately . . .

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    2. Perhaps the question should be to any man..." DO YOU CRY FOR ANY EVENT, HAPPY OR SAD? HAVE YOU CRIED IN A FILM?"
      Anna

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    3. I don't tend to cry over happy events. And, honestly, I don't tend to cry at real events at all -- happy or sad. But, I have cried at movies, and I also will tear up or cry listening to some songs.

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  7. My wife already noticed two things.

    1 - I have a very great resistance to pain,
    2- Embarrassment works better than pain.

    Well

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  8. I find the trick to getting tears is to encourage david to "act out" during his spanking: kicking, wiggling, apologizing, begging for it to end, and so on. He is completely capable of being utterly stoic and not saying a thing or moving a muscle during even a hard spanking, so I INSIST he acts out (within reason). "Pretending" to beg and plead gets him much, much closer to tears, and sometimes he does actually cry. Insisting he acts out is actually a bit embarrassing for him. I make him do it. I insist on it. And then I tease him for it: "you're taking this like a six-year-old girl!" I tell him. The odd thing is that the more he "pretends" during a spanking, the more real it gets!

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    1. I agree with Tomy. Makes perfect sense. I've never quite understood the thinking behind the opposite approach, where the wife expects him to be totally stoic. That seems counterproductive.

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  9. That's very profound. Makes perfect sense to me. It's the old "fake it until you make it." approach. Works in many aspects of life.

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  10. We can all agree that tears are closely linked to emotions. Many men do not cry from pain but rather more from deep emotion that surfaces, whether sorrow or joy. In fact, I am convinced that even the tears of childhood spankings are also much more about emotions than pain.

    Many men have had a lifetime of learning to suppress or hide emotions, especially those that make them feel less manly. Maybe much of the release of crying is because of accumulated suppressed emotions?

    The "recipe" for tears is different for every person, but usually it is a mixture of the same ingredients in varying proportions. I agree with what Dan wrote, so probably I am just restating the same things.

    The key to tears lies in last week’s discussion, so this week's topic is the perfect follow-up. Generally, you will cry only after you are first reduced to a little boy who feels remorseful about what effects his actions have had on others. Embarrassment and humiliation play a HUGE role. By humiliation, I mean more of a humbling; not taking away someone's self-worth, but instead clearly (but temporarily) reducing the big strong man's status to that of the little boy, or maybe a little girl if you want to take it a bit further! In my opinion, if he is reduced to a sorry naughty little boy, then the spanking was a total success, regardless of whether tears were shed.

    The largest factor that is most often missing for my wife and I is time. To bring about this complete breaking down of emotional barriers that I have carefully built over decades and to reduce me to a child is not an undertaking of minutes, but rather an hour, if not more.

    The ideal scenario would be:

    - Anticipation: I should know what I have done wrong and that a punishment is coming so I have time to think about it and about my actions. Knowing it will continue until I am in tears helps set the stage.

    - Scolding. This should continue so long that I am feeling so bad that I am dying for the spanking to start, just to end the lecture! And then of course it should continue throughout.

    - Spanking. I view pain as playing a supporting role in the process, albeit an important role. As Dan said, if the pain is too much or too fast, it works against the process, since it causes the spankee to focus on the pain rather than the humiliating situation and the reason for the spanking. But the right amount of pain at the right times can act as a very strong positive reinforcement, breaking down internal barriers.

    - Multiple cycles of punishment: There is no way that she will be able to adequately move me from big, strong, proud man to sorry little crying boy in 5 minutes, no matter what tool she is holding in her hand. This takes time. Time for her to scold… Time for me to reflect… And this time is best spent making me feel little, with things like corner time, mouth soaping, serving her, or whatever. As a side benefit (?) the time also allows my bottom to regain sensitivity in between rounds of punishment.

    We have gotten to tears, and I know they are going to become more a regular part of our discipline sessions, but we have a ways to go. As I said, I think that mostly time is the lacking factor. In every punishment, without exception, I have always been happy when it ended. Yet at the same time, in every case, again without exception, I feel like it would have been much more effective if it had went on much longer.

    -ZM

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    1. Thanks, ZM. There is, as often with your comments, a lot of good stuff here. It also points out to me how much successful discipline may require finding the right balance in several areas. Spank too lightly and its ineffective. Spank too hard and it's ineffective. Punishing close to the time of the offense may be more effective than long delays. But, anticipation is also helpful. Think of how much we expect of our Disciplinary Wives in thinking they find all the right "sweet spots." Some thoughts and a follow-up question or two on your recent experience with tears:

      -- Anticipation: I go back and forth on this one. Sometimes when she punishes me, too much time has passed since the offense and I am no longer feeling much remorse. The connection between the crime and the punishments gets attenuated. For me, the ideal seems to be that she announces a punishment will happen, then it does within a day.

      Scolding: As I've said, my wife scolds but it does need to be longer and more forceful. She is getting better and better, but I do think it would help if she could get really, really tough with me verbally.

      Spanking: I see the physical pain as a necessary but not sufficient factor in bringing about tears. I've said that going to hard may actually be counterproductive, but it's also true that on those times when I have come close the spanking has, in fact, been very hard. I think some of it comes down to timing -- going hard is necessary but going to hard *from the start* leads to instant resistance. Some warm-up that allows him to settle into the experience seems beneficial. It's something else I can't really get my wife to do.

      Multiple cycles: I'm sure you are right on this one. Time is such an impediment to these relationships on so many levels. When you told us about your recent spanking experience, you made the point that duration was key. May I ask, how long did that spanking last? On a related point, see Tomy's recent post on using a timer or hourglass: http://tomyswife.blogspot.com

      One other point on this -- I do think that some of my wife's spanking habits -- no warm up, too much severity at the start -- do get in the way of me getting to tears. BUT, as I said a few weeks ago, just because I see the goal as getting me to tears, I'm not sure that she always shares that goal. I think she sees the spanking as punishment and knows that a really hard spanking hurts like hell, so she isn't hung up on whether a "catharsis" happens. She just wants me to regret what I did.

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  11. I am regularly brought to tears during spankings. It's hard to say what my wife does that brings this about, but mainly the pain. Both my wife and I like it when I am reduced to tears, as this brings about a feeling of intimacy: - I bare this intimate part of my body to her and I invest trust in her by letting myself cry during and after the spanking. I am careful to ensure spankings bring us closer together, so there is an embrace before and after. My wife particularly likes embraces where the tears are still flowing and even more so in the missionary position afterwards when they drop vertically onto her.

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  12. Hi Dan and All - a bit late to this thread I'm afraid, busy times.

    I have had wet eyes during or after a solid spanking but for me it is the first minute or two that really, really hurts. After that initial peak of pain I seem to settle into a plateau of discomfort unless she picks up the pace or focuses on a relatively 'virgin' area. In other words after the first flurry it becomes bearable. If it goes on and on I then find the pain starts to build again to a different peak by which time I am very glad when she stops.

    In my unfortunate habit of very open and honest feedback I shared this with my wife, in amongst other things, as she always likes to hear how she has done, how I am feeling, etc.

    For the most recent session, earned for a sustained period of slightly less than acceptable behaviour, (nothing major just a build up) she adopted a new approach. The usual long telling off and recounting of misdemeanours to the point that we were 'agreed' that what was coming was necessary and deserved followed by a burst of hard & fast with the strap, a short break for more words, followed by same hard & fast again - repeated a number of times. Then a long steady sustained 'attack' followed by some further short bursts with many words in between.

    Almost unbearable, almost at the edge and whilst I didn't openly cry, I had watering eyes all the way through and from close to the start. I think the breaks allowed me to recover a little, but not enough so that the stinging just got worse & worse.

    She had that super satisfied half smile at the end - it's been two days and I'm still a bit sore.

    Was this tears? Not really but I could easily have gone over the edge, lost control and wept like a baby.

    TB

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    1. Hi TB. I share some of that "unfortunate habit of open and honest feedback."

      You and ZM both address the merits of bursts or cycles of spanking. I'm sure that is very helpful in the overall duration and intensity.

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  13. I am seldom brought to tears when J. (or N. before her) paddles, flogs or canes me - even if I whelp or whine a bit - but there have been a few times when I was...
    L.

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