Saturday, January 22, 2022

The Club - New Years Edition 2022

“Be at war with your vices, at peace with your neighbors, and let every new year find you a better man.” - Benjamin Franklin

 

Hello all.  Welcome back to the first meeting of the Disciplinary Couples Club for 2022.

 

As long-term readers know, my New Years posts tend to be both reflective and verbose.  So, hopefully those who have been here a while and who come for the camaraderie will bear with me. Those who are here just for the spanking porn may want to come back some other time.

 

“Well, what a fucking year.” That’s how I began my traditional New Years post for 2021.  I thought (hoped, prayed, assumed) things couldn’t get any worse and that 2021 would yield a “v-shaped recovery” from the shitshow that was 2020. Although I do think the world recovered some of its collective footing after a very unbalanced and unbalancing 2020, it hardly was the major positive change I was hoping for.  If 2020 was a series of disasters, 2021 was like a long, slow grind.  Though, I guess at least the overall direction of the grind at least was upwards.  Sort of.

 

For us, the old year ended on a very stressful note, and the new year got off to a very bad start.  I won’t go into details because it really would be a little bit too revealing, but our community dealt with a real tragedy near the end of the year; one from which it will take a very long time for some people to recover.  I was hoping to help in a “hands on” way as soon as practicable, but as I noted in a comment to the most recent post, right after the new year I contracted Covid and had to quarantine. While we were traveling in a foreign country.  Not fun. 

 

If you live in the U.S., I encourage you to think twice before traveling internationally until the CDC lifts its current travel restrictions. They require a negative Covid test no more than 24 hours before flying back to the U.S. from a foreign country and, and that restriction applies no matter how long you might have quarantined after a positive test.  The problem is, the CDC itself notes that you can test positive for months after you are no longer contagious and aren’t experiencing any symptoms.  The only other option if you keep testing positive (which I did for several days after the CDC’s five-day quarantine period), is to get a signed letter from a doctor saying you had Covid but have now recovered.  Good luck finding a doctor in a foreign country who will examine you wherever you are quarantined, and who in addition to doing his job as a doctor will also be so kind as to write a letter for you containing whatever magic words your airline may require before they will let you onto a flight back to the U.S.  I’ve also heard that some airlines are unilaterally requiring longer quarantine periods than the five days the CDC currently suggests.  In short, there is a highly transmissible disease going around, and if you get it while traveling abroad it is all too easy to get stuck for some indeterminate period before you can come home.

 

  

Regarding the virus itself, I encourage you to keep taking steps to protect yourself.  The Omicron variant (which I assume is what I had, though I have no way of knowing for sure) has been characterized as “mild,” but that’s a relative term that is used mainly in comparison to Delta and the original Covid 19 variants, which have killed millions worldwide.  Based on my own experience and that of fully vaccinated friends and family, Omicron may not put you in the hospital or kill you, but then symptoms can still be pretty debilitating and can last a long time.  It was 12 days between when I first experienced symptoms and when I finally tested negative, and my symptoms—especially the more flu-like symptoms like exhaustion and “brain fog”—actually got worse after I tested negative.  It’s now been three weeks since I had the first symptoms, and I still can’t fully shake the cough, congestion and fatigue.  Friends who have contracted it recently experienced very bad fatigue and severe body aches, and severe fatigue.  Therefore, while I understand the hope that Omicron’s combination of high transmissibility and mild(er) symptoms might lead to herd immunity without maxing our hospital and morgue capacity in the process, based on my experience Omicron isn’t a joke. 

 

I didn’t really expect to start the new year with a rant, but there you go. I also need to try to keep a wider and more positive perspective on the year as a whole.  I spent a good part of the year recuperating and rebuilding from a surgery to fix a chronic health problem that had limited my physical activity for two years.  It wasn’t an easy or painless rehab, but by mid-year I was taking on some physical challenges that, in my humble opinion, were fairly impressive for an aging guy such as myself.  For the first time ever, my proclivity for social binging on alcohol dropped like a rock.  I also finally let go of a career that, although lucrative and fairly good at serving my ego needs, had not been serving me well from a mental/spiritual/bodily health perspective for many years.  The end-of-year tragedy I spoke of above, and the lack of inquires about our welfare by a lot of people I worked with for many years served to reinforce that I probably should have moved on long before I actually pulled the trigger.  In past years, I’ve posted this meme, which reflected some real frustration about my chronic lack of yearly progress:

 

 

But, this year I can say that in some areas I actually did become a better, healthier, more energetic person.  The goal now needs to be to carry forward and not lose ground.  On that note, my Covid quarantine and the year-end drama our community went through did lead to one epiphany that I think and hope will have an impact on how I approach 2022.  I left my career without any real plans for a second act, and I’ve never had any obsessive hobbies or compelling interests to keep me busy post-career.  In combination with the necessary process of rehabilitating my body, my lack of concrete post-career goals led me into a months-long process of decompression and recuperation consisting mainly of a lot of dog walks, daily gym workouts, reading, and a lot of Netflix binging.  While I genuinely need some time to just decompress after burning the candle at both ends for way too many years and almost ruining my health in the process, I realized that my daily routine while quarantined in a hotel room was not all that different from the way I had been approaching retirement, i.e. whole days drifted away with me sitting around the house doing little other than surfing the internet, reading books and streaming series and documentaries on Netflix.  A life comprised of consuming media and entertainment content isn’t much of a life.  So, whatever plans I put in place for 2022 need to involve a conscious effort to overcome inertia and do some exploring and serving.

 

What about the DD/FLR/kink front?  Well, it was another up and down year.  I continue to be surprised that as we have progressed further and more solidly into empty-nester status, things haven’t progressed that much in terms of DD or Anne taking charge.  There is a complicated mix of reasons.  First, my physical recovery imposed some hard limits on physical discipline for several months. Second, and relatedly, it’s hard to get any momentum going after a long break.  Third, although I “retired” mid-way through the year, Anne is still working. Therefore, while I had fewer distractions to get in the way of DD consistency, she did not. Fourth, for much of the year my behavior was, in fact, much better than it was when I was neck deep in work pressure and work-related socializing and travel. Finally, there was one time near the holidays that I did something that I know undermined her authority and, unfortunately, it went unaddressed.

 

But, there were bright spots on the DD front that could foreshadow changes and real progress this year. For the first time in more than 15 years in this lifestyle, without any prompting from me Anne searched for and bought a spanking instrument.  (Unfortunately for my bottom, it was a bath brush. I hate those damn things.)  Further, she started leaving it and the heavy ebony hairbrush on display together in our bathroom, in a way that indicates to me that she’s getting much more comfortable with our kids potentially figuring out that someone in our house gets spanked. 

 

 

So, with 2021 in the rearview mirror, what do I want to accomplish in 2022?  Unlike in the past when I would set out some very specific goals for the upcoming year, this year’s list is a little more “thematic” and includes:

  • Solidify the progress I made last year on reducing the number of excessive drinking incidents.
  • Renew and energize some friendships that I let drift away over the last few years when I was too focused on career.
  • Volunteer on some effort that has a real and substantial impact on the lives of vulnerable or powerless people.
  • Take at least three long road trips with Anne and the dogs.
  • Complete drafts of two books I’ve wanted to write for some time but never seem to get around to.
  • Multiple multi-state motorcycle trips.
  • Take up some sport or demanding fitness activity that doesn’t take place in a gym.
  • Reverse the recent losses in our investment portfolio.


On the DD front, my aspirations include:

  •  Weekly reporting of any misbehavior.  I started this one last year but my consistency was dismal. 
  • Inject some additional kink into our disciplinary relationship.  I don’t have anything really firm in mind for this one, but maybe something like being spanked outdoors or in a car.
  • Finally, after 15+ years, cry from a spanking.

I haven’t asked Anne what her resolutions might be, but here are a few she might consider that do reflect what I see as particularly relevant to our relationship:

 





How about you? Do you have any specific goals or aspirations for the new year, whether related to domestic discipline or more vanilla aspects of your life or relationship?  Anything that you particularly want to achieve?  Any specific bad behaviors you’d like conquer?  

 

I hope you have a great 2022. The bar is set awfully low for this to be a better year, but let’s all try to do our part.  Of course, I said the exact same thing last year, and look how that turned out.

54 comments:

  1. I probably should have added some aspirations related to the blog. There are a couple I can think of off the top of my head. First, while I am not and never have been concerned about growing the total readership or the number of participants, I do think it would nice to add some small number of commenters who are in genuine DD relationships and who want to talk intelligently about them. Second, I'm probably going to be much quicker and more decisive about cutting off people who I suspect are not in such relationships but are pretending to be. At the end of last year, I let one go on longer than I should have, even as the person's claims about their relationship got less and less believable. While it seems a little paradoxical, I suspect that being more diligent about getting rid of the posers will encourage more and better participation by others.

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  2. Also, something I meant to put in the main post and forgot was topic suggestions. A few weeks ago, someone (Alan?) suggested polling the group for topic ideas or questions people might want to explore. God knows I had very little inspiration of my own last year, so I'm open to it. I don't promise to use every suggestion, but I'm happy to hear from anyone who has something they think would be worth exploring.

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  3. Like most of us, both Ms Mirage and I are looking for a better year than last. On a positive note, my lower back has been straightened out with the program instituted by my chiropractor. Now on a maintenance program for that, he is working on my neck issues. Hoping for as good results as I experienced with the lower back. On the DD front, we usually tweak our agreement, rules and prescribed discipline at this time every year. Very little tweaking seemed to be needed and maintenance spankings will continue. We are experiencing increased anal play this year and more plugging and pegging is a goal. Happy New Year to all.

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    1. It's great that you were able to fix the lower back problems. It can be really debilitating and have a huge impact on your overall quality of life. I had back problems for several years but was finally able to fix them with a lot of hamstring and glute stretching and strengthening my core.

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    2. "finally able to fix them with a lot of hamstring and glute stretching and strengthening my core."

      I have discovered exactly the same thing, but it is a life-long endeavor to maintain the gains once achieved. Its definitely not a one and done fix. Make sure you are working bridges into the core work. I think SC's chiropractor strategy is not a bad one either, but as a complement rather than substitute for the core work.

      Alan

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  4. Dan,
    Welcome back and hope the worst of your health challenges are over. Late last year I speculated that we may have a tough winter but followed by recovery from the pandemic. I still believe that is likely with something like the V shaped pattern now much discussed - a sharp downward slope into spring followed by a longer but stable trend line for rest of year.

    As long as the vaccine resistance remains, it will be an endemic disease with the potential for new variants to evolve in the un-vaccinated population. Fortunately most of the world excluding us of course has lost patience with the vaccine deniers and that augurs well for international immunization going forward.

    I also appreciate your discussion of the seriousness of the omicron symptoms because too many are acting publicly like getting it is like getting the winter flu. It isn’t.

    On another note your resolutions/ goals are impressive. I create a list for myself each year and sometimes feel they are too ambitious. Yours make mine sound like riding a hobbyhorse.

    BTW, Anne’s purchase and display of a bath brush are in my experience meaningful and a little ominous since it was the bath brush rather than a lighter instrument. She may be just being a little playful but when my wife or former girlfriend put any kind of tool on display it meant things were about to be tightened up a bit. She found out a long time ago that the bath brush spoke loudest to me and has been keen to remind me it that it is closely available to her.
    Again, welcome back
    Alan

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    1. Hi Alan. I hope you had a great holiday.

      "On another note your resolutions/ goals are impressive. I create a list for myself each year and sometimes feel they are too ambitious. Yours make mine sound like riding a hobbyhorse." Well, keep in mind, my track record for hitting my resolutions/aspirations is pretty dismal. But, if I accomplished half of this, I'm probably feel OK about the year.

      Yes, it is ominous that Anne gravitates to the bath brush.

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  5. Hey Dan, thanks for a wonderful post! I was hoping for one soon. Big year that you had!
    For me for 2022 on the DD front, I am coaxing my wife along and she is slowly coming around to the idea of disciplining me on her own terms. The kids are still home for the holidays so that does limit things, but she has placed a large cross on the shopping list (and hopefully only two of us in the house know what that means!).
    Last week she explained that she was sick of the state of the coffee machine, and spelt out how she expects that to be maintained after use... and advised that he would be punished if she found it in a mess again. I'm being very careful now. I'm hoping that this is the beginning of a year with more DD initiated and delivered by her but time will tell (particularly once the kids leave).
    On other goals, we both definitely need to be fitter and I suggested that we incorporate some DD as incentive. Already we are using it to prevent smoking, I am caned if either of us smoke (she does not receive DD). Having to cane me for her offence is seeming to limit her use as well.
    Long comment sorry, have a great year!

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    1. Thanks, Mark. I hope you had a good holiday. I don't think your comment is long, and longer ones are often the best at stimulating further discussion.

      "I'm hoping that this is the beginning of a year with more DD initiated and delivered by her . . ." That hope is always in the background for me, though I didn't list it as one of my resolutions, because I don't have a lot of control over it.

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  6. Alan,very good post. I fully agree with eliminating poser comments. I hate them and delete them from my blog. We are struggling with Mrs. Lion discovering offenses. At this point, the only reliable reason I get spanked is if I forget to set up the coffee pot for the next morning. This is a binary offense and easy for her to enforce.

    While we haven't had COVID, both of us have been under the weather quite a bit this winter. I would love to get some help in how we can get back on disciplinary track.

    Have a great New Year!

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    1. Hi CL. Discovering offenses remains an issue for us, too. Mainly because my track record of carrying through consistently on the reporting regimes I have suggested we punt in place is pretty dismal.

      Sorry you spent so much time under the weather this winter. Until this bout of Covid, I was feeling great about a very long streak without a cold or the flu. For several years, I seemed to be very vulnerable to getting colds that turned into bronchitis and stuck around for weeks or months. But, I stayed cold free through almost all of 2020 and 2021, probably because we were all masking, wiping down surfaces, etc.

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    2. Agreed - my weekly maintenance spankings usually only last a couple of minutes - but my wife can easily deliver well over a hundred solid whacks in that length of time. And a hundred whacks (her minimum) of the bath brush is definitely enough to remind me to keep my alpha behavior in check. Have you considered discussing a weekly maintenance spanking with her - that would only last a couple of minutes. --al

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    3. Thanks for the feedback. Actually, the ten-minute minimum spank length (DWC) has worked very well. The problems with our health have gotten in the way. However, she has only postponed one punishment (I forgot to set up the coffee pot). She told me that my reprieve is over.

      As Dan said, the problem is more about identifying offenses. My wife can't decide on what behaviors she wants to punish. The problem is never consistency. She always follows through. It's finding a way to punish the things that annoy her. She has a terrible problem with that.

      It's been three weeks since she last spanked me. She ade sure that I know another is coming very soon. So far, it is just ten minutes for the coffee pot.

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    4. Any rough idea how many whacks that ten minutes equates to? My wife generally tends to spank at a brisk pace - so that would probably be several hundred if my wife spanked me continuously for 10 minutes. I typically received 100-150 or so, although does occasionally go over 200, especially for punishment spankings for a specific offense. --al

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  7. Hi Dan,
    Welcome back!

    Reflecting on the previous year’s goals is usually pretty depressing! At least making resolutions is easy enough, since all my previous ones are still valid… But I will write some goals later in a separate post. I entered this year about 20 pounds lighter than last year, so that is progress at least. Other than that, not much has really changed, but 2021 was actually a pretty great year for me, so I guess I will take it!

    Your goals seemed great, especially in harnessing some of the free time you now have with the change in your work status. It would be great if you can really do some of those things, like writing the book drafts, traveling, and sports! I also really liked your “volunteer on some effort that has a real and substantial impact on the lives of vulnerable or powerless people.”

    I also really liked your DD goals!

    “Weekly reporting of any misbehavior” - as you know, I am hesitant on this one because it feels a lot like asking for a spanking, plus my wife doesn’t like self-reporting much. However, a while back you said that even though the imposed feel is a bit lacking, it is still better than having a bunch of issues that are never addressed (paraphrasing heavily). In addition to what you said, I will also admit that a big part of the reason I don’t like it is simply because I don’t want to get more spankings.

    “Inject some additional kink into our disciplinary relationship” - Your ideas of possibly being spanked outdoors or in a car both would change the experience significantly, and would feel pretty edgy. My wife and I are already pretty far along the kink scale, but I would like by the end of the year to have tried all of my current kink ideas.

    “Finally, after 15+ years, cry from a spanking” - This one I have experienced, but only once or maybe twice really and a couple of other times kind of. I think the main thing keeping this from happening more is time; time to reflect on the reason for the spanking, extended scolding before and during the spanking, and then for the actual spanking to go on long enough that you just kind of give up on it ever ending. The whole process often takes longer than we have or my wife feels like spending on it, and as for the length of the spanking itself, the time is usually limited by me starting to have a few little spots of blood or clear bruising. Either of these are uncomfortable for my wife to see, so she usually stops as soon as this happens. Ironically, both any spots of blood and visible bruising both vanish in a few hours or overnight. I expect that if my wife is ever sufficiently angry, she might just continue when she sees damage - or maybe even be encouraged by it. If that ever happens, I think the spanking will be quite memorable.

    And finally, regarding the new bathbrush and ebony hairbrush: “…she’s getting much more comfortable with our kids potentially figuring out that someone in our house gets spanked.” - I do think that is significant. Hopefully, she will continue on this path. Of course, if she spanks you outdoors or in a car, that might be literally down a path!

    I had an interesting experience regarding tools on Thursday. My wife’s close friend, the one that she told EVERYTHING to, came over to the house for coffee. I knew she was coming, and that my wife planned to show her some of her spanking implements and other things. What I didn’t know was that she would end up staying for dinner and a couple of hours afterwards. I am not sure if it was more strange knowing that she had just been looking at the tools that are used to spank me, or that everything still felt perfectly normal hanging around her that evening. It was just really surprising how little impact it had. I am becoming more convinced that most people (not all) probably care a lot less about us getting spanked than we think they would.

    -ZM

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    1. "At least making resolutions is easy enough, since all my previous ones are still valid." Year after year after year, I could say the same!

      On the weekly reporting, it does lose some of the imposed feel, but it's complex, because sending the email that might get me spanked has it's own ind of compelling emotional edge. I might equate it to feeling like a kid with a strict spanking mother coming home with a bad report card. And, the fact that I think about doing this a lot but then can't keep it up for more than two or three weeks indicates I do have some big emotional resistance to it, which also to me is an indicator that it probably is something that might help address some of my chronic failings if I were to ever really implement it.

      Mine wife also stops whenever the skin starts looking a little abraded or there are spots of blood. I used to think that maybe going past that point was pointless anyway, since my bottom would often get numb. But, one of your comments a few weeks ago got me thinking about that. It was something to the effect of the first part of the spanking is to cause immediate pain, but the part that that goes beyond numbness is what may keep you from sitting down comfortably for several days after the spanking.

      I suspect you are right that we build up the embarrassment of others know to a very big deal, but then when it actually happens it can be pretty anticlimactic because they just don't care that much.

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    2. When a spanking should stop sounds like an interesting topic and linked to a sub topic of what is the objective of the spanking ?
      To cause immediate pain , or to be feeling the effects for days after , or both.
      Very often if a spanking stops too soon ,the effects disappear very quickly which is a source of frustration for her as she feels she did not do a good enough job.

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    3. You're right, that could make a good topic.

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    4. It does sound like a good topic. I have read that same advice myself a few times over the years - for the wife to keep spanking even after his butt is probably starting to become somewhat numb, as those extra whacks are the ones that ensure soreness for the days to come. And that lingering soreness is definitely part of what makes a disciplinary spanking so effective. --al

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    5. "On the weekly reporting, it does lose some of the imposed feel, but it's complex, because sending the email that might get me spanked has it's own kind of compelling emotional edge. I might equate it to feeling like a kid with a strict spanking mother coming home with a bad report card." - Yeah, as I think about it I can see how that dynamic could feel. And if your wife is really expecting that you will self-report whenever there is something to report, it becomes less of a choice and more inevitable, like the child bringing the bad report card home to the stern parent.

      One idea I thought of - though haven't thought through enough for how all the details might work - would be kind of a locked confession box. So, for little things that you maybe don't feel like are necessarily big enough to self report on, you would write them on a paper and put it in the box. Then, at will your wife could open the box and take one or as many she feels like and read them. That way, you can be sure they don't become accumulated secrets that could later cause feelings of guilt for you or feelings of anger, hurt, or resentment for her, which might happen if you just sweep them under the rug. By putting them in the box, you at least know that at some point they will be known. Again, I am thinking more for small things here, though I guess it could work for everything. This would be particularly good for couples that practice regular maintenance spankings.

      -ZM

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    6. That's an interesting idea. I really do need to make reporting my #1 DD related goal for the year, because I think so much hinges on consistency, and for us consistency has always been a big issue.

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    7. ZM, that locked box is an incredible idea. Imagine her pulling out as many slips as she feels like dealing with, or pulling them all out and not letting you know which ones she's read until the critical moment. At a glance, much more is surrendered by this method than by email. I'll be thinking about this.

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  8. I bet you were on your best behaviour at dinner and afterwards ZM!

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  9. Welcome back, Dan. Glad to hear that you have recovered from your recent health challenges. We've had some in our family as well, as many have these days.

    I will look forward to hearing about how the self-reporting goes. I see it serving a similar purpose as periodic maintenance spankings in that these practices maintain the "practice and tone" of maternal discipline in the home. Although I can see where self-reporting has other purposes as well in terms of personal accountability and self improvement.

    As was noted earlier, your wife actually purchasing a bath brush as a spanking implement on her her own volition is indeed an ominous sign for the new year. The (legendary Vermont) bath brush has been my wife's everyday implement of choice for many years - and the damn things still hurts as much as ever.

    A belated happy New Year to all. --al

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    1. Wouldn't you love to know what proportion of bath brush's are actually used for a bath?

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    2. My wife has a bath brush for her baths and she has a bath brush when I need a spanking. The long handle really is why she uses it, quicker and longer results.

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  10. This is off topic - my apologies in advance. And we can perhaps table the question for now if need be - perhaps even in favor of a more in depth discussion as a weekly topic. However, back in December, toward the end of the weekly thread, Alan posed a question to me and I left a note that I would offer a thought or two later - but certainly others may have ideas as well. It is a noteworthy query.

    Alan wrote:
    >My question is not about the efficacy of spanking compared to alternative punishments. We have pretty well exhausted that for now. But it stimulated me to wonder if there are both alpha and non - alpha males seeking female authority in relationships – and those males are importantly different in terms of their behavior within a relationship, the sort of relationship they seek, and the discipline to which they respond positively.

    Previously I had not thought a lot about this assuming we were all on a spectrum of acceptance and submission to female authority. But the spanking issues Danielle and Carol raised are making me reexamine this<

    Based on about 3 decades now of following various F/M forums around the Net as time has permitted, I suspect that there is - in general (there are always exceptions) - a difference in the dynamic between an alpha male in a DWC style marriage (or relationship) and a beta male in a DWC/FLR marriage. I think this dynamic may be even more evident when reading accounts in more pure femdom forums or in hotwife-cuck/stag-vixen forums.

    And - disclaimer - no disrespect is intended toward anyone in any of these comments. I would be last to judge sexual behavior between consenting adults. I fully concur with one of the prime mantras of the kink world: "Your kink may not be my kink, but your kink is ok". Also - these are just my personal observations based on spending way too much time in these type forums over the years. (I was a fantasizer/wannabe for about a decade before my wife and I adopted the DWC lifestyle just over 20 years ago).

    With the alpha male, I see the the husband as typically voluntarily submitting himself to a maternal style discipline agreement as a way to keep his alpha tendencies in check, or at least to atone for them. He is probably less likely to engage in femdom play, wear a chastity device, engage in sissification (wear panties, etc), be a cuckold, etc. Of course, there are always exceptions - and an alpha male might engage in certain of these as well. Maternal discipline led my wife and I to explore a limited amount of femdom play early on (pegging, in particular, seemed to compliment maternal discipline in our view - a similar type of dynamic) - but chastity or sissification never appealed to either of us.

    And beta males - just the inverse - probably, in most cases, are more likely to engage in the more submissive femdom practices - chastity, sissification, cucking, etc. Again, generalizations are tricky and there are always exceptions. And because beta males appear to be generally more submissive, they are probably more open to "doing whatever the wife commands" in regard to "alternative punishments".

    Just a few thoughts. --al

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    1. "With the alpha male, I see the the husband as typically voluntarily submitting himself to a maternal style discipline agreement as a way to keep his alpha tendencies in check, or at least to atone for them. He is probably less likely to engage in femdom play, wear a chastity device, engage in sissification (wear panties, etc), be a cuckold, etc."

      This is very true for me. I think the primary impetus for my interest in "maternal style discipline" has been exactly that -- wanting to keep my more "alpha" or "aggressive" tendencies in check and atoning or being held accountable for them when they inevitably take me into bad areas.

      Where I would quibble a little bit with Alan's initial question is I don't think it is an "either or" with respect to there being a spectrum of acceptance and submission to female authority" on the one hand and whether there are two different types of males seeking these relationships on the other. I suspect that there are two general types, but that they overlap like a venn diagram and that there are spectrums within the two general types. I remember being surprised early on in the life of this blog when I ran a poll that asked whether male readers preferred to lead or to follow in roles outside the home. I had assumed that the readership was heavily weighted toward people who were alphas or Type A's or leaders or however you want to characterize men who tend to lead and be in charge in their daily lives but seem driven to give up some of that level of control at home, probably because that was my limited perspective as such a man. It also may have been an indirect result of the fact that a lot of the material on DD website--my original source of DD information--involved women imposing the DD relationship on men who were not otherwise submissive. But, to my great surprise at the time, about two-thirds of the respondents said they preferred to follow in their roles outside the home. A few years later, in 2017, I did another version that asked respondents to self-identify as "naturally submissive" or "not naturally submissive" and, again, a clear majority of the readers who responded self-identified as naturally submissive.

      I suspect you are right al, that those tendencies may be reflected in other kinks, though I suspect there is a spectrum within each major camp. We have experimented with some things you identify like "engage in femdom play, wear a chastity device, engage in sissification (wear panties, etc), be a cuckold, etc." So, I had at least some interest in those things. But, they never seemed to stick, and the reality was never as compelling as the initial interest. This is one area, however, where I think Anne's interests and my own may diverge. She seems to gravitate fairly strongly to bossing me around when it comes to chores and to serving her, while I balk at those things whenever they become real.

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    2. Dan - yes there is clearly a spectrum and some overlap in all these "kinks" involving bdsm, spanking, consensual non-monogamy, and the like - as with most things, I suppose. --al

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    3. "We have experimented with some things you identify like 'engage in femdom play, wear a chastity device, engage in sissification (wear panties, etc), be a cuckold, etc.' So, I had at least some interest in those things. But, they never seemed to stick, and the reality was never as compelling as the initial interest." - We have done quite a few things too, though of course not everything that my over-active imagination has dreamed up. And the progression of each new kink we explore is similar to how you described. I have lots of things I am interested in, and usually the curiosity around each one runs super high and I think a lot about it. Then we try that thing, and in many cases, the reality doesn't match what I have built it up to in my mind. At that point, we either redirect it a bit (often based on what we learned from trying it) and explore it further or we give up on it completely or at least move it to the back burner. Either way, at least the curiosity is diminished so I don't think about it quite as much.

      "This is one area, however, where I think Anne's interests and my own may diverge. She seems to gravitate fairly strongly to bossing me around when it comes to chores and to serving her, while I balk at those things whenever they become real." - My wife has really latched on to this one recently as well. While I am not always sure how much I like the reality of service domination, I do think it is great that it has captured my wife's imagination and interest, and I think that ultimately it could be a huge part of what motivates her to ramp up DD/FLR more and to assert her authority more often and in a stronger way. As we have done more with services, my feelings surrounding it have changed quite a bit. I used to kind of like the thought of it, but then generally hated it when it happened. Recently, I have realized that it all depends on my wife's approach. If she just tells me to do some unpleasant task in an ordinary way, I will do it but probably not like it at all (though I always try to do my part in everything). However, if she plays it up, either by being super bossy and threatening a bit, or perhaps by making it intentionally more difficult or humiliating by injecting some kink in it, then I am suddenly much, much more into it.

      -ZM

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  11. Just as a side note on the above, I've also seen a similar dynamic in the realm of "hotwifing" - where a husband voluntarily consents to his wife having sex with other men. There are some interesting shades of gray here also. But the two primarily divisions are the "hotwife-cuckold" model where the husband experiences an eroticized bdsm-type shame in allowing his wife to be with other men (along with practices that support this style - no need to discuss them here) - and - the stag/vixen model (sometimes referred to as a hotwife/hotwife hubbie model) - in which the husband simply finds it hot to know that his vixen/hotwife is having sex with other men (lots of variations - sometimes the husband is present to watch, sometimes not, there can MFM 3-somes, etc). As might be expected, just by casually reading through posts on these type forums, one sees that beta men are far more likely to be in the hotwife/cuckold model, and alpha men in the stag/vixen model.

    And, Dan, again sorry if this is too off topic. Please feel free to save what might be helpful for any future discussion and delete the post if necessary. But, I did not want to forget my promise to reply to Alan. --al

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    1. Hey al. I'm fine with them and OK with leaving them here for further discussion. It's interesting stuff, and I'll give a substantive comment in the next day or two.

      FYI, Blogger with it's usual consistency allowed your first two comments but then flagged this one as spam.

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    2. Thanks, Dan. I noticed that the third one did not immediately appear - and I guessed that it got flagged (perhaps subject matter triggered an algorithm). I actually originally had it all in one post, but it exceeded the allowed length - so had to split it up. --al

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    3. I haven't seen two "hotwife" models broken out that way, but it makes sense to me. I admit to having some fantasies in the hotwife area, though we've never gone there and doubt we ever would. Of the two, my mind tends to gravitate toward the "stag/vixen" model as you describe it (I haven't heard that term before), though again, there is some overlap for me.

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    4. Thanks to -- al for continuing the conversation re differences and similarities between “alpha” males and “beta” males.

      There were at least two streams of thought that raised these questions for me. One was the earlier discussion we had re “alternative” punishments to spanking. The other was various “femdom blogs” I have read. These and other DD material suggest to me there are two distinct male types who seek DD and FLR relationships.

      One type of male has a personality that is a priori deeply submissive to females and seeks a relationship in which he can express that. I will call these males “beta”. In their relationships spanking is secondary if important at all. In fact in some of these relationships punishments, including “alternative punishments play no role whatsoever in their obedience or fulfillment.
      The other type of male who I will term “alpha” is not submissive to women by nature or even inclination. But they do seek female authority “imposed” upon them in the context of a relationship. An alpha male will “submit” to a female exercising her authority but is not a priori submissive.
      His submission comes after she has exercised that authority and not before. Knowing that she is consciously using that authority and wants obedience from him in fact makes him want to summit to her.

      Punishment or the threat of it, unlike with beta males, plays a big role in this. Alternative punishments can work with an alpha male especially if he experiences spanking as something to be avoided. But spanking is the ultimate sanction that would allow a woman to for example ground an alpha rather than spank him. He will want to make the grounding work knowing he faces worse if it doesn’t.
      Alan

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    5. Alan, there also may be a third time, or perhaps it is a variant of your "alpha" category, in which it isn't so much imposed "female" authority that is important but, simply imposed authority. In my case, I'm not really sure how important the "female" component really is. I'm more or less heterosexual, and I was married to a woman at the time I discovered DD, so it has generally expressed itself as submitting to female authority. But, because my need seems to be rooted in the need for accountability or "atonement" as al put it, for me I think the core need is around imposed accountability and imposed limits, and the gender of the imposer may not be critical. Also, I'm not quite sure that for most of us "his submission comes after she has exercised that authority and not before" is completely accurate, since in most cases it is the man who asks her to take up that authority in the first place. It seems to me that the submission sort of precedes the actual exercise of authority, but it does depend a bit on how you parse it.

      On the alternative punishments, I don't personally see things like grounding as working because they are backed up by something "worse," i.e. a spanking. In some cases, the alternative may feel worse than the spanking, because the former may last longer or may take away something you really, really want to do in a way that at least some men may find much "worse" than taking a spanking and getting it over with.

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    6. “I'm not quite sure that for most of us "his submission comes after she has exercised that authority and not before" is completely accurate, since in most cases it is the man who asks her to take up that authority in the first place. It seems to me that the submission sort of precedes the actual exercise of authority, but it does depend a bit on how you parse it.”

      Dan,
      Agree with most of your thoughts here. For me however the gender of the imposed authority is pretty important albeit that has been my entire experience, so I won’t foreclose Om what hasn’t happened. I do know that the threat of a non spanko male witnessing or even knowing I am spanked has been a significant constraint on my behavior a few times and it is probably a hard limit. Whereas another woman knowing or even witnessing is something I have always left to my wife’s discretion. I don’t have the same feeling about a male also subject to discipline although that so far is completely theoretical. But I think two men sparked together or in proximity to each other would be more likely to bond than be embarrassed

      I do want to quibble with you a little on when male submission happens with alphas---keeping in mind this is a totally non empirical impressionistic typology and a rough one at that.

      Asking for imposed authority is different from it actually being exercised. An alpha seeking female authority “wants” to submit to her and will if she recognizes the authority she possesses and acts on it. Conversely in my typology the beta male is already submissive. Maybe we could say the alpha’s submission is latent and brought out by a female exerting female authority. But that imposed authority is a necessary catalyst to submission.
      Alan

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    7. Hi Alan. I assume I am in a very small authority of this group (perhaps a minority of one) for whom the gender of the disciplinarian is secondary to the imposition of discipline itself. Yet, even though I identify as heterosexual, the desire for accountability to be imposed is not really gender-specific for me. The stirrings I feel thinking about DD are there when I see things like drawings involving school discipline, with a male authority figure like a male school principal. I've talked here about a dream I had in which I was taken from a work event to be spanked. In that dream, the person taking me from the room who was going to do the spanking was male. So, apparently my subconscious also recognizes the possibility that DD for me could be fulfilled by a male spanker.

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    8. Dan, certainly in a minority of at least two. For me the gender of the spanker is also secondary to the need for control and discipline. I would certainly submit to a male authority if he recognised that I needed discipline (and/or if my wife allowed!).

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    9. Thanks, Mark. Good to know there are at least two of us. :-)

      The other thing about the possibility of a male disciplinarian is, some on here have contended that discipline in a F/m relationship can never really be imposed, as the male always could physically resist. That isn't quite as certain with another male. It is odd though that while I'm not averse to the idea of M/m discipline, in my real world relations I have always been fairly turned on my strong female superiors and peers at work, while it's always been a volatile disaster whenever a male tried to pull authority on me.

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    10. Dan,
      The former GF who introduced me to DD told me several times that she would like to spank me in front of a guy, who was a good friend at the time, and she was pretty sure he would love to witness her doing it. (She had a bit of a crush at the time on my friend and that was probably part of the dynamic.) I know I didn’t want anything to do with it and shot the idea down pretty fast but she left it hanging out there not so much as a threat but something that could happen.
      After she did administer a surprise spanking with her GF in the house (another room) I made it very clear I would not be happy if that were to happen with my male friend present. But given any encouragement I think my GF would have enthusiastically spanked me in front of him.
      The whole experience made me realize male involvement in my discipline was really not wanted. Sometime later however I corresponded extensively with a European who had been spanked in front of several male witnesses but they were either husbands also subject to discipline or men being oriented by their wives to what to expect. I did modify my feeling about male involvement to that extent (his experience) and do wonder what it would be like to receive a serious discipline spamming from my wife at the same time another guy was experiencing the same from his wife.
      Alan

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    11. Alan, it is interesting how much changes in the various "witness" scenarios can impact how open we are to actually experiencing those scenarios. When I read you first sentence, I thought you meant he was your GF's friend, and I didn't have a strong reaction one way or another. But, when the parenthetical clarified that this was a friend of yours, not hers, it gave me a totally different feeling. I would rank being spanked in front of a male friend as one of, if not the most, ego-threatening "witness" scenario. I'm not sure whether it is on the same level with, or slightly lower than, being spanked in front of one of my siblings. I think the friend probably would be worse, both because of the somewhat competitive or hierarchical dynamic that always seems to be there between males, and also because I probably would see male friends more frequently than I see any of my siblings. But, if the male was a friend who was himself a spanked husband, that does change the feelings I have about the scenarios. For example, I don't feel that embarrassed thinking about what it might be like to spanked in front of some of the regular commenters here.

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    12. Wow, a whole lot of content in this message thread! I am not even sure where to begin.

      Regarding alpha vs beta, the more I read and the more I understand myself better, the less sure I am about which one of these I am closer to, especially since it seems to vary in different realms.

      For alternative punishments, I think I agree with Dan that often spanking seems more desirable than something that could interfere too much with my plans and freedom (like grounding, for example). At least spankings are done and over with quickly. Probably for the same reason of alternative punishments stretching over a longer period of time, I think (from my sum total of zero experience with this), that being grounded or something like that would feel even more humiliating to me than being spanked does. For that reason, I am kind of afraid of it.

      Regarding the "hotwife" fantasy, it has never really resonated with me. However, from the few references to it that have turned me on, like captions or whatever, it is always the "hotwife/cuckold" dynamic and never the "hotwife/stag" dynamic.

      Now on to "...the gender of the disciplinarian is secondary to the imposition of discipline itself." - I have never been interested in M/M adult discipline, probably because adult spanking always has a certain amount of implicit sexuality. However, I have thought a WHOLE lot over the years about school spankings or things like fraternity initiations, and in those cases it would have definitely been a male swinging the paddle, so I guess at least to some degree the discipline is more important than the disciplinarian itself.

      Which leads me back to the whole "hotwife/cuckold" thing. I am not into the thought of someone having sex with my wife, but the few captions that have turned me on surrounding this theme are inevitably where the husband is spanked or punished, and then either is forced to watch them have sex or is forbidden from watching them.

      Since we are on such a racy topic (or at least I am), I think what would turn me on greatly is if my wife had any hidden bi tendencies, I can imagine if she had a friend and she or they punished me, and then I had to watch them playing with each other maybe while I was tied up or wearing a chastity cage. I guess in that scenario, I would definitely be the "beta."

      Finally about witnesses and in particular male witnesses, I agree fully with what you wrote, Dan. In the case of witnesses, who the witness is is much more important than the fact that there is a witness (again speaking from my absolute inexperience)!

      -ZM

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    13. So, in regard to having a spanking being witnessed by a male, I suspect that I would find that very, very awkward - unless they were also spanked husbands. I have occasionally had the fantasy in which my wife spanks another man (maybe a male "advertising" for a spanking online, or such) and me both in the same session, one right after the other. I guess that could actually conceivably happen. I don't know that my wife would be opposed to it (she enjoys spanking and has talked about how she would enjoy spanking other men as well), but actually taking steps to make that happen has never come up. That is a thought....

      In regard to the alphas and betas as spanked husbands. I have read a few times through the years that some alpha men do see spanking as an atonement, and see themselves in a "gallant" role by bravely taking their spankings, or simply see themselves as "taking it like a man" (even if they do yelp and squirm - don't we all...). I will confess to having a bit of this outlook myself. --al

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    14. ZM, we did manage to pack a lot into that one thread, didn't we? Like you, I do have a (perverse) attraction to the theme of school spankings, and in my day it definitely would have been a man delivering the spanking.

      There are times that I do find the whole "hotwife" thing fodder for my fantasies, yet as a practical matter I can't see it ever happening for us, and I also think there is a big risk of "playing with fire." I have known people over the years who got into swinging, and it always seemed to lead to the destruction of their relationships over time. I'm not saying that is always the case, but we humans seem to be pretty hard-wired for jealousy, and I think those alternative arrangements are inherently hard to pull off.

      al, I have never asked Anne about any interest in spanking other men. I really have no idea whether it would have any attraction for her, even if only as a fantasy.

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  12. Happy New Year and welcome back. Good goals all around so far...

    My main DD-related goal is to figure out a better approach given older kids' schedules. As we discussed several weeks ago, we're entering that period of life where you never really have the house to yourself anymore. There are a couple of windows each week where the right people are at school and our jobs give us a little time together. Unfortunately, we usually aren't in the mood during the day. We'll hopefully learn to make the mood happen, because this is an important part of life.

    Health is the other big one. It's going to be important that I take fitness and diet improvement seriously this year, doctors' orders. While spanking might produce some results, on the balance, I think spanking will be an effect of better health, rather than a cause. I need to test this theory further, but I've noticed my wife is more interested in spanking me when I am bounding with energy than when I am sluggish!

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    1. Hi MW. That phase of life is a tough one, and I don't have much to offer based on personal experience. There were several years in which the kids seemed to be constantly around. On the one hand, it was a reflection that we were doing some things right as parents, since our kids actually wanted to be around us and weren't actively trying not be, but it definitely led to a lack of any adult alone time. Even when they were out of the house, it was often for some activity we were involved in or spectators at, like a soccer or volleyball game. The only solution I can come up with is one or both of you could take the initiative to spanking during those brief gaps when they happen. But, I know that's not as easy as it sounds.

      "I think spanking will be an effect of better health, rather than a cause." That is true for us too, though for different reasons. This is one area where my DD interest and erotic interests to NOT correlate. it has become a running joke for us that when I'm sick, I tend to want to sex. I have no idea why, but I do. But, when I am sick or in poor health, I tend to lose all desire for DD or FLR.

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    2. Our kids have been out of the house for a while now, but by the time we joined this lifestyle, the kids were old enough to leave alone at the house for a while - long enough for her to take me out and blister my ass. We were fortunate to have access to an office that was empty at night and only a few minutes away, and I got spanked many, many times in that office - but she also would take me out to the back of a vacant parking lot on occasion (at night) to paddle me. She could easily see anyone approaching - and I would just have to pull my pants up as she was fully dressed. Although no one actually ever approached. But, if the cops were to show up, we were prepared to say that we were just having a "private talk" away from the kids. :)
      --al

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    3. Do you think the kids ever wondered what you and the wife were doing, leaving the house together and leaving them at home, like that?

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    4. Not really. Our oldest was a teenager by that point, so we would sometimes leave them for alone for an hour or so to run to the store or whatever. I don't think they ever suspected - and we were careful to keep the toy box locked, but there's always the chance they saw something suspicious.

      I think the the biggest risk we ever took in front of the kids happened late one school night after they were (hopefully) asleep. My wife had decided that I needed a bedtime spanking and with the kids home, it had to be a switch ("the silent killer"). So, I went out and cut her one, and brought it back to her to meet my fate. But well before she had decided that she was done with me, the switch broke in half. At which point, she uttered a swear word, grabbed the brush off the night stand and gave me another twenty or so with the brush, making all kinds of noise. I immediately went to peek in on them in their bedrooms, and they both appeared to be sound asleep (and I could usually tell when they were faking - but one never knows). But, at the end of the day, I suppose it doesn't really matter if they ever suspected or not (or even overheard a spanking). --al

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    5. Our kids were pretty young when we first started DD, and many spankings occurred in the basement after they had gone to bed. During that period, we didn't do things like using more silent instruments. We became much more circumspect as they got older and started staying up later.

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    6. Hi MW,
      That phase of life with older kids or teens makes it very hard to get time alone for anything. All I can say is enjoy every moment that you have with them; later it will be a relief in a way when they go away from home, but also it leaves a huge hole that is hard to fill. As far as DD goes, we just tried to use what time we could, but it was usually at the wrong time so quite frankly, not all that much happened much of the time.

      "Health is the other big one. It's going to be important that I take fitness and diet improvement seriously this year, doctors' orders." - Me too, though not at the urging of a doctor since I don't even want to see them right now!


      "...I've noticed my wife is more interested in spanking me when I am bounding with energy than when I am sluggish!" - probably true for my wife and I as well, at least to a degree. Though she is plenty happy to light a fire under me to get me moving forward, she probably enjoys spanking me more when I am more energetic and alive and in a bit better shape.

      And Al, you said: "But, at the end of the day, I suppose it doesn't really matter if they ever suspected or not (or even overheard a spanking)." - I think this is exactly right. Of course we do what you can to prevent others from hearing, seeing, or knowing about our DD activities - whether "others" is our kids or other people inside or outside or families - in the end it probably doesn't really matter nearly as much as we think it does if they do find out.

      -ZM

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  13. Hi Dan,
    And here is my short list of goals for this coming year (already one month down)... I am not sure how achievable they are, but it never hurts to try!

    Health goals
    - Lose at least 30 more pounds by summer, and about 50 pounds this year.
    - Walk a lot more. This will improve my health and empower weight loss.
    - Start daily push-up routine again
    - Start jogging some when I am physically able
    - Stretching program
    - Strength program with emphasis on core

    Business/money goals
    - Push hard on company and make it much more successful by summer
    - Save money every month

    Travel goals
    - Travel to the USA at least once this year for my daughter’s graduation, and hopefully twice so I can see my mom as well.

    People/social
    - Instead of just always being up for anything, become more intentional about being the one to reach out to others and making things happen.
    - Forget I have a phone when I am with people.

    House tasks and repairs
    - When anything breaks, fix it at the next available opportunity

    Educational/reading goals
    - Read at least one book every two weeks.

    Attitudes
    - Learn to control my emotions, especially when driving. I need to remember I always have a choice in my response.
    - Embrace and nurture positivity. Retrain my thinking to regain the positive outlook I used to have.

    Habits
    - Become neat and orderly long enough for it to become a habit. I am now at least part way there, but I have a long way to go.

    And since you mentioned DD and kink a bit, here are my goals for that as well.
    -For kink, try at least once (and hopefully more for those we actually like) all of the ideas that are currently rolling around in my head in some form.
    - For DD, help reinforce my wife’s role as disciplinarian by not trying to postpone weekly check-ins.
    - For FLR, let her add whatever she wants to this list of goals! :-)

    -ZM

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    1. That's a pretty ambitious set of goals for the year. I especially like "Instead of just always being up for anything, become more intentional about being the one to reach out to others and making things happen." I have certain relationships in which, if I'm honest, I've been pretty lazy when it comes to proactively fostering the relationship. And, until this last year, I focused so much on work that I let some relationships get stale. I really need to work to fix that this year.

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