The Club - Meeting 488 - Spanking for Carelessness

You learn a lot more from the lows because it makes you pay attention to what you're doing.” – John Elway

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly meeting of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline and/or Female Led (FLR) relationships.

 

Once again, before we get started, I would like to extend a specific invitation to our female readers to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We miss having you around.

 

I hope you all had a good week. I’ve gotten in a couple of fun motorcycle day-trips in the last couple of weeks.  I’m trying to cram in as much fun as I can before we go into a state of suspended animation thanks to the injuries and consequent medical procedures I alluded to a few weeks ago. 

 

 

And, speaking of cramming in fun, Anne and I probably are going to try to squeeze in an RV trip in over the next few days, which means it’s fairly likely I won’t be posting next week.

 

Before I get to a topic for this week, I wanted to do one quick follow-up regarding last week’s topic.  The comments kicked off with a couple of strongly negative opinions regarding the possibility of kids—even our adult kids—finding out about our DD lifestyles.

 

Given how strong the reaction was from a couple of people, it got me curious about what, if anything, they have done to ensure that no one, including the kids, would find out about the lifestyle if, heaven forbid, the worst happened and you shuffled off this mortal coil, leaving some interesting toys and instruments behind. And, it's something that even those who aren't as concerned about others knowing still might want to think through.

 

I’ve always loved this cartoon by KD Pierre, which raises the comedic issue of an elder passing and leaving behind some hints that their life had been maybe a bit more “colorful” than her relatives realized.

 

I’m probably a bit more sensitive to this issue than most, because of some early life experiences with close relatives dying very unexpectedly.  It’s always been in the back of mind that every day really could be your last.

 

In our case, I don’t remember exactly how it came up, but at some point I told the vanilla friend who knows about our DD lifestyle that I kept all the instruments in a footlocker-like box in a closet. Once when we were going on an adventurous trip without the kids, she asked whether I wanted her to try to spirit the box out of the house if anything were to happen to us.  I had listed her as the executor on our wills, and she was the godmother of one of our kids, so it wouldn’t have been unusual for her to have a role in handling our estate and belongings.  Today, I’m not sure what would happen.  The footlocker still exists, but the tools are scattered around in various places, as are some of my hand-written journals discussing DD. 

 

So, the simple answer is that, if something happened to us, our kids would almost certainly quickly discover nearly everything about our DD relationship.  Which is fine with me, but others reacted with such concern, I’m curious if they’ve done anything to ensure ongoing confidentiality, in the event the worst were to happen.

 

In terms of how bad the reaction of adult kids might be, my own intuition is in-line with what several others expressed, namely that they probably would be fine with it or, most likely, they wouldn’t care that much one way or another. 

 

ZM summed it up well in responding to one of Norton’s comments:

 

"Being held accountable for my behavior has had a profound and positive affect on my life and my relationship. It would be great to be able to share our DD with others, but any attempts we made were met with disinterest." - Hahaha. That is one of the main observations my wife and I made when it came to telling others. In our minds, it was such a HUGE deal, but the fact is, most people simply don't think that much about what others do or really care. They might find it mildly interesting, or even perhaps slightly amusing, but unless they too are wired more like some of us, they are probably likely to not really think about it much (if ever) again.

 

I expect that same thing would hold at least somewhat true with grown-up kids. Probably they would think about it more, since they are closer to the situation, but it might be just reflecting on things and trying to see if there were signs of this relationship dynamic that they missed or something like that. In the end, our grown-up kids have plenty to think about in their own lives, and this probably wouldn't get a lot of mind-share.”

 

Al pointed out that even if the kids aren’t aware of DD, they may become aware at the more subtle changes in attitudes and displayed roles:

 

“However, I do know that they are both very aware (especially the older child) that there came a point when I was noticeably more respectful, and showed greater deference, to my wife than I had before - as well as Susan becoming obviously more assertive in her interaction with me, especially when it came to my behavior and attitude.”

 

As I noted in response, one of our adult kids asked my wife about the fact that she seemed to increasingly be in charge and making more of the decisions.  Kids are perceptive and probably know or intuit more than we like to think.

 

In a great cautionary note, however, AE pointed out that it’s not just about what kids might think about DD, but whether they have the discretion to keep it to themselves. 

 

“TE and I have a daughter who is still elementary age. She knows nothing about our DD and I would prefer to keep it that way for a while (probably a long while). She’s seen me playfully slap TE with an oven mitt in the kitchen for being in my way and she still talks about it several years later. I don’t trust her understanding or discretion at this point. That being said, I can’t say there will never be time when she’s grown that I won’t feel differently, we’re just in a stage of life where that’s unknown.”

 

As for this week’s topic, it’s more a series of personal anecdotes that illustrate one direction I hope our DD goes in after we get through this medical-related hiatus.

 

Over the last couple of years, I’ve gotten more intrigued about DD’s application to simple carelessness.  Things that don’t represent big character failings, malicious conduct, disobedience, or bad attitude. Instead, I’m talking about those times when we are sloppy or do things in an absent-minded or half-assed way.

 

 

When we first started DD and, honestly, for probably most of the first 18 or 19 years in the lifestyle, Anne focused her attention what I think we both saw as big behavioral failures. Drinking too much or too often. Temper tantrums. Behaving in a way that she saw as being rude, embarrassing, or boorish in the presence of others.

 

Although our general rule, from the beginning, was that she could spank for any reason, in reality most of the focus has always been on bigger issues or things that involve a failure to obey agreed-upon rules. 

Conversely, there hasn’t been much focus on simple carelessness, even though careless acts and omissions have probably cost as much time and money, and placed my health and safety at as much risk, as some of the “big ticket” stuff she has consistently addressed.

 

Most of the times, I'm the one who pays the price in time, anxiety, and aggravation, but that doesn't mean that acts of carelessness couldn't extend to things that do affect Anne, if they generally go unaddressed.

For some reason, it’s shown up a lot in my hobbies and recreational activities.  The first time I recall really wanting a significant spanking for an act of carelessness was on a group motorcycle trip a couple of years ago. The trip included some tough terrain.  Unfortunately, one of my tires was significantly worn, but I didn’t notice it until it was too late to get it replaced.  I decided to risk it and, while no great disaster ensued, it did cause some significant problems and made certain parts of the trip much more dicey than they should have been. I also forgot to bring some necessary equipment, despite having an exhaustive checklist to work from.

 

This year, when I went on a similar trip, I did a better job with ensuring everything was maintained and that I had the right equipment, yet there were still some problems that occurred as a result of not maximizing some things I knew I should, in face, maximize.  There was also one fairly significant incident in which, though I didn’t initiate the carelessness, I went along with a traveling companion’s insistence on something that I knew in my gut was going to cause us a significant problem, and it did.

 

On a more minor scale, last year I failed to winterize our van before the first significant freeze, and I ended up spending the better part of two days chasing down and repairing water leaks.

 

And, then, just a week ago, I did something on my motorcycle that was just plain stupid and could have caused a very significant and expensive amount of damage.  In the end, it turned out okay, but it could have been a very costly lesson to simply pay more attention.This drawing shows the context for the punishment that should have happened in a just world.

While it was a genuine mistake, it was a dumb, easily preventable mistake.

 

I realize I have an out-sized need for personal accountability and that sometimes we need to treat a mistake as a mistake.

 

Yet, I also believe that lack of accountability on even genuine mistakes has

ripple effects. 

 

I do think that as I’ve gotten further into early retirement, some of the “big ticket” bad behavior has declined.  However, avoiding the avoidable costs and frustrations of daily life is worth focusing on, given that simple carelessness sometimes does result in substantial costs in money and time. 

 

And, when I'm undisciplined and sloppy in small, everyday areas, that can't help but spill over into bigger things.

 

It's kind of like the "broken windows" approach to policing, in which crime prevention focuses on things like petty vandalism and graffiti, because those petty crimes degrade the neighborhood and give people less of a sense that the rules matter.

 

In the past, I could excuse some simply fuck-ups on the basis that I was crushingly busy and couldn’t always stay on top of everything. Truth be told, however, that level of busyness was a reason to get more organized and systematic, not a good excuse for being less so. 

 

We’ve talked here before about the value in being disciplined for “small” things, but I don’t see some of my instances of carelessness as all that small.  Some could have become real safety issues and others could have cost hundreds or even thousands of dollars to repair.  That I have avoided those consequences most of the time has been more about luck than skill. 

 

I recognize that my tendency to wing it has cost me and others time and, in some cases, caused a fair amount of stress and worry. And, in a couple of the instances described above, I have gotten very mad at myself.

 

That’s why I think I’m so attracted to this captioned picture and have posted it a few times.  To me it exemplifies the idea of getting spanked sometimes for results, regardless of the intent that led to them.

 

It's an attitude that I think was pretty common among parents when I was growing up and a kid failed to take care of an expensive toy or destroyed something through carelessness, inattention, or rambunctiousness.

 

It’s the attitude I hope Anne will take about this carelessness stuff going forward. 

 

I feel like the focus needs to be on both the act or omission and on the result. Or, perhaps even more so, on the potential result. It may be that relatively minor act of inattention or carelessness should earn a very bad spanking if a seriously negative result was avoided by sheer luck. And, like with failing to winterize our RV on time, some fairly minor consequences are so avoidable that they too should earn at substantial reminder to pay freaking attention!

 

 

How do our disciplined husbands and Disciplinary Wives feel about this?  Does she spank for simple carelessness?  Should she?  Give us some examples of careless than has been or should be punishable.

 

Have a great week.

The Club - Meeting 487 - Whether, When, and How Much Should They Know About Your Domestic Discipline Relationship?

“The more a daughter knows the details of her mother's life [...] the stronger the daughter.” - Anita Diamant, The Red Tent.

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly meeting of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline and/or Female Led (FLR) relationships.

 

I hope you all had a good week.  Mine was pretty good, with the exception of one monumentally stupid act of carelessness while out on a motorcycle ride.  It’s unclear whether I will be spanked for it, but I definitely should be even though everything turned out okay in the end.  Perhaps more on that in a later post . . .

 

 

I’ve begun several recent posts with a general invitation to our female readers to join in on our conversation.  Recently, a few have taken me up on it.  I hope they and a few more will join in on this post specifically, as I think it is one on which they might have a particularly valuable perspective.

 

We’ve had a few posts in the past about when (if ever) and how much kids—including but not limited to our now-adult progeny—should know about our DD lifestyle.

 

I got to thinking about it again, and thought perhaps some of our Disciplinary Wives might have a particular interest, after this comment a few weeks ago from “DD”:

 

I haven't checked the blog in a while, lots of good stuff in the recent posts. I had to comment that, while I don’t see the disciplinary relationship with my wife as maternal, a few months ago there was an incident that definitely had that feeling. I was playing video games with my son one night and my wife came in and told us to shut it down as it was a school/work night and bedtime for all of us. Being in the zone, we imprudently ignored her orders and played for another hour, time getting away from us. Well the next morning my wife knew what time we went to bed and was not happy. She scolded us both thoroughly in the kitchen for disobeying her. She had my son sit at the kitchen table and write lines, she then turned to me and told me I was not getting out of it either and that I would be getting punished. She walked me down the hall and for a good 10 minutes gave me a severe belting over the bed and an additional scolding on disobeying her and not enforcing her orders in front of our son. She then had me take our son to school and clarify what should have happened.”

 

I asked whether his son knew he had gotten a spanking. He responded:

 

"We do not explicitly tell our kids I get spanked, but they are very aware my wife is the authority in the household and that she is the disciplinarian. He knew that "mom" was upset and was taking me to our room to "deal with me". I am not sure what he could hear from the kitchen, but I think there have been some times they may have overheard my wife scolding or spanking me behind closed doors. There have also been other times they knew she was upset with me and took me to the room to deal with it. The dynamic has actually kept arguing and fighting in front of the kids to a minimum. They see enough to know I misbehaved and that it is going to get addressed but no arguing or fighting in front of them, and anything they might overhear is clearly not arguing or fighting either but a one-sided lecture/scolding and me getting disciplined with a well-deserved spanking."

 

Now, I know many of the commenters here—maybe most—would object to kids in the household knowing that dad gets spanked.  There could be any number of reasons for that.

 

Perhaps they see spanking as inherently sexual and, hence, something that should be kept away from kids by all means necessary.  Of course, after kids hit a certain age, they do know their parents have sex, right?  So, I assume something more than inherent sexuality may be at play for those who want to keep the DD part of their parental relationship strictly secret.

 

Some may also think that the hierarchy involved in a DD, and especially an FLR, relationship might be confusion for the kids and diminishing for the husband/father.

 

I know this has been Anne’s thinking, or part of it anyway. She has told me that when the kids were growing up, she was concerned that knowing about our DD/FLR relationship might lead the kids to think less of me.

 

 

I suppose that could happen, but she was much more concerned about it than I ever was.  My view was that I worked my ass off and sacrificed some of my own lifestyle desires over a lot of years to give my kids a stable home, great educations, etc.  If after all that they were to learn about the DD aspects of our relationship and lose respect for me . . . well . . . fuck ‘em.

 

But, I don’t think that is how it would turn out.

 

And, I do think they have figured out at least that our relationship isn’t quite typical.  A few years back, one of them commented to me wife that she seemed to make a lot of the decisions and basically “wore the pants.”  Making something up on the fly, my wife noted that I had a large scale, very demanding career that involved directing a lot of people and making a lot of big decisions. She said that it was stressful and that, when at home, I preferred to leave a lot of the decision-making to someone else.

 

It was a pretty benign explanation, but I think the fact that the question was asked at all says a lot about what they may have intuited.

 

Or, maybe it was more than intuition. Kids can be snoopy.  Who knows whether one of them came upon a journal or a spanking instrument that was inadvertently left out.

 

And, of course, a couple of years ago once they were both out of the house and on with their own adult lives, Anne started leaving her bath brush and ebony hairbrush on display on the counter in our master bath. Again, our kids aren’t dumb or imperceptive.

 

Still, while we probably weren’t quite as secretive as some, we did take reasonable precautions to keep the DD aspects of the relationship private and, hopefully, unknown to the kids.

 

Yet, I’ve always been intrigued by those like “DD” and his wife who, if not totally out in the open, didn’t exactly try to hide it either.

 

 

It doesn’t seem to be very common.  In the 10+ years I’ve been doing this blog, there have been only a handful of commenters who have said that they knew growing up that their father was subject to domestic discipline, and those seemed to involve a more or less passive understanding of the situation. There was no open discussion about it. Rather, it was just kind of in the background. 

 

One of the rare examples of a Disciplinary Wife who grew up in a household where her own mom was openly in charge was a commenter from a few years back named “Holly.” She recounted how her mom’s status was just always there in the background, though never discussed.

 

"There wasn’t any time I wasn’t aware of domestic discipline. Mom spanked our dad, never in front of us, but when she took him into the bedroom there was no doubt what was going on and anyone in the house could hear it. I didn’t think much of it except that mom was definitely in charge, which everyone knew anyway."

 

Later, after her young and immature husband started acting up, her mother openly advocated that she should take up the paddle or strap. 

 

 

She resisted at first because she thought her mother had been too ready to spank for every offense, but she came around as her husband’s behavior worsened. 

 

While she was one of the seemingly rare examples in which the wife instigated the DD relationship, she had reason to believe her husband would accept it and might even want it and, of course, she had seen how her mother had kept her father in-line.

 

“I knew it was real from the first spanking I administered because I knew men can be managed with a strap if a woman is determined. I had also suspected for a while my husband wanted this. Our dating relationship really became serious when he found out my father was punished. He never directly asked me to take control, but I was certain he would accept it, and I was right since I received no resistance when I told him what was coming. Also, the way he stripped and presented his ass to me on command convinced me I was right.”

 

So, Holly was the rare woman who observed (or overheard) her mother spanking her father, whose mother discussed it with her at an appropriate time in life, who went on to tell her future husband about it, and who later went on to impose (sort of) a Domestic Discipline relationship herself.

 

From time to time, I get questions from parents with young kids about how to achieve any kind of DD consistency with kids in the house.

 

One answer is, of course, to do what Holly’s mother did – don’t worry about keeping it secret.

 

I understand why most couples will reject that as a solution, though I still wonder how things might have developed had Anne gone there.  I feel like she’s made more progrees in the last couple of years than in the previous twenty.  What might have happened if she’d been as open back then as she is today, when even today she’s not exactly “out” but, rather, just not that concerned anymore about what others think? 

 

Moreover, what about once the kids are grown, or at least young adults?  Is the DD or FLR side of your relationship something that should be kept from them once they are off on their own?  Or, was Holly’s mom right to be relatively open about being in charge and disciplining the father, culminating in the mother openly advocating that Holly take up the paddle?

 

 

Why is it the case that even once our kids become adults and move on to their own relationships we still seem to be intent on keeping the DD aspect of our relationship secret from them?

 

Aren’t we supposed to try to give our kids--or perhaps their spouses--the benefit of our parental wisdom?  If you think DD is something that has helped your own marriage, or if you think it helps your own performance or your mental/emotional wellbeing, shouldn’t you share that with your adult kids for their own potential benefit?

 

Those benefits could take a lot of forms.  Perhaps, like Holly’s mother, you have a daughter who needs to take charge of her own ill-behaved husband. 

 

 (I like the scenario this meme proposes, but is it really that hard to proofread three or four sentences ??)

 

Or, maybe your darling son (or daughter) is having a hard time growing up and could profit from being on the receiving end of the marital paddle or strap. 

 

Honestly, I don't know how open we will be in the years to come. As some of our commenter KOJ’s stories reveal, things like retirement can cause people to be way more open than they might have once thought possible

 

Although I’ve probably never been as concerned about keeping things from our kids as Anne has been, at this point I've pretty much decided that I would be okay with them knowing everything at a general level, whether about the disciplinary spankings or about our blooming FLR, or both.

 

Though I don't care if they know, I don’t have any desire to talk to them about it myself.  And, given the gender dynamics, if it were to be openly revealed, that probably should come from Anne.  I don’t think she’s there yet, and in my view that’s maybe an opportunity missed, as I think it would be empowering for her. And, while they are adults and capable of making their own choices, it still might be a great thing for them to see the example of a strong woman, fully and openly in charge at home. 

 

Feel free to discuss any aspect of this post that resonates with you, but here are a few specific questions to get you started:

 

Were either of your own parents disciplined by the other parent when you were growing up? 

 

Are your kids aware of you disciplinary relationship? 

 

For those of you who are in an FLR, are your kids aware that the wife is the leader in the marriage? 

 

Have you ever spanked or been spanked by your spouse while the kids were in the house or might overhear? 

 

If your kids are not aware of your DD or FLR relationship, might you tell them or let them find out about it in the future?At what age might it be appropriate?

 

Does the kid's gender effect your view in any way?  

 

 If your daughter married a man with maturity or performance problems, would you pass along some helpful hints that maybe she should educate herself about DD?   

 

What if you had an immature or misbehaving son? Would you ever suggest to him (or to his frustrated daughter-in-law) that maybe disciplinary spankings could give him the structure and boundaries he seems to need?

 

Have a great week.

 

And, speaking of kids, one last pic combining kids and my current obsessive hobby.

 

 

The Club - Meeting 486 - Grounding and Other Non-Spanking Punishments

The ability to have a choice in what you do is a privilege.” - Anton Yelchin

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly meeting of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline and/or Female Led (FLR) relationships.

 

Once again, before we get started, I would like to extend a specific invitation to our female readers to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We miss having you around.

 

I hope you all had a good week.  I feel like mine sort of passed in the blink of an eye.  I spent some time adding farkles to a new motorcycle, which I purchased before figuring out that most of my late spring and early fall were about to go “poof” in the face of medical interferences.  I finally got some imaging back on mine, confirming what I suspected. But, there’s some chance several weeks of physical therapy and limited activity might let me avoid another surgery.  Unfortunately, that’s definitely not in the cards for Anne, who will not exemplify this meme for quite some time:

 

I’m still trying to get my head around this unpleasant reality.  I’ve been practicing various forms of meditation and Zen for a lot of years, and I’ve always found that the hardest thing to break our attachments to is our own plans. And, most of us generally suck at predicting whether the things we want to do will actually turn out to be good for us, and often times it is the stuff that makes us the most uncomfortable and is the most disruptive that is the most constructive.  So, I’m trying to keep an open mind about how the next few months will play out in terms of positive and negative impacts on our lives. 

 

 Maybe it’s because I’m acutely aware of the frustration of best laid plans being disrupted that this topic suggestion from Anonymous, from several weeks ago, jumped out at me this week:

 

"Grounding as a method of punishment. It's a topic that doesn't get nearly enough discussion as opposed to spanking and really needs to." 

In addition to being intimately related to frustrated plans, grounding and other non-spanking punishments may have to come into play while Anne is incapacitated.  So, the topic is timely (for me) for multiple reasons.

 

We have experimented with grounding from time-to-time, though I think I use the term more broadly than some others do.  I apply it to any order that restricts my freedom of action, while I think others see it more narrowly as being confined to staying at home instead of hanging with friends or going to social activities. In this post, I'll use it in the broader sense.

 

We didn't use it often, but when we did “grounding” usually consisted of an order not to drink alcohol, and perhaps to be home from work at a particular time.  Although we did dabble in it, and I felt it had the potential to be very effective, it never really took root.  

It was an inherently difficult punishment to enforce back when I was working, because I was constantly traveling for business, and even when working out of my usual office, there was a lot of team and client-oriented socializing.  That stuff really was important to career development and associated earning capacity, so Anne would have been cutting off her nose to spite her face had she regularly imposed strict limits on my ability to socialize with others.

 

Yet, even if spanking has been our primary form of punishment since we began our DWC relationship, grounding has always intrigued me, perhaps because it was always out there as a possibility. It's never been something I've seen as a replacement for spanking, but it's certainly something that could supplement one.

 

So, given that I do have an interest in it, why haven’t I devoted topics to it more often?  Mainly because when I’ve done so in the past, the array of negative responses have tended to illustrate only how central spanking is to many men’s disciplinary interest, to the exclusion of all other means of discipline and punishment.

Yet, the longer I’m in this lifestyle, the more I’m open to the proposition that the more I dislike a particular punishment or aspect of our disciplinary relationship, the more it probably is real punishment or discipline.

I think Aunt Kay probably felt the same way.  Although the Disciplinary Wives Club and its website were devoted primarily to adult spanking, Aunt Kay clearly saw a DWC-style relationship as encompassing the full range of maternal discipline. In that vein, I found this in one of the DWC publications:

 

“The DWC is all about reality, special relationships, love and trust. The sort of trust that would enable a strong man to weep in his wife's arms after a licking, and then gently being led to the corner while drying his eyes. The sort of trust that would enable a woman to administer a strong dose of woodshed medicine to a man she loves and likes. The sort of trust that would allow a man to accept scolding, groundings, time-outs and penance tasks, just because his disciplinarian has determined he needs it.”

 

It's also clear that Aunt Kay’s references to groundings applied in her own relationship. In preparing this post, I found this comment from Aunt Kay’s husband (who went by “Tomy” when commenting here) on one of the prior posts on this topic:

 

“I have been mulling over the topic of "alternative punishments" since you started it last week. Like most of the other respondents, spanking is by far the usual consequence around here. But on rare occasions she imposes an "alternative punishment." What I have come to realize, thanks to your topic question, is that they are, in many ways, worse.

 

For some reason, being sent to bed, forbidden television, and things like that are SO frustrating that it's almost unendurable. It actually makes me feel even more helpless than submitting to a spanking. When it happens, I feel really angry inside; deeply frustrated. But expressing that is not an option. So, I have to do what I am told.

 

Technically speaking, around here "alternative" is not usually the right word. For us the more accurate word would be "additional.”” 

So, to me, grounding isn't a replacement for a spanking, but it is another tool in her arsenal.  One that her husband might find particularly adversive -- even more so than a spanking.  

As I think has been on display here fairly frequently in recent weeks, some men like spanking a little too much and its unclear just how disciplinary their spankings really are. I've always believed that a wife who wants to impose real discipline must adjust her methods to account for what her husband finds truly punishing and what he doesn't.  

As kids, we might have done anything to avoid a spanking, including taking a week of grounding. As adults, I suspect it often would be the opposite.

You can include me among those who really hates the thought of being grounded.  But, it probably shouldn’t be surprising that I’m intrigued by grounding as a punishment, given that I’ve come to realize and accept just how much my interest in Domestic Discipline is grounded in the “maternal” archetype that the DWC alluded to fairly often. One of our frequent commenters from a few years back, Danielle, really picked up on the connection between maternal discipline and alternative punishments in a lengthy comment really challenging me on how far I was interested in taking it:

“So, WHAT IF Anne pushed the adult/minor dynamic to its logical conclusion? She has already taken a step in that direction by assigning you chores and warning you not to forget to lock the doors under threat of being spanked. But if she really wants to exercise her authority in a “maternal” way, I think she should consider deploying the full range of disciplinary tools that adults employ with minors. In other words, in addition to spankings, she could consider consequences like grounding, loss of privileges, early bedtimes, etc. She could also consider limiting your personal discretionary spending by putting you on an allowance which could be suspended for disciplinary purposes as she deems appropriate. She could impose curfews and require you to get her permission if you wanted to go out for drinks after work. From what you have said previously, I believe you would find those auxiliary measures more truly humbling and embarrassing than simply having your bottom paddled.

 

Let’s push the parent/minor analogy a step farther. If you were really a minor, there would be no reason for Anne to hide her authoritarian status from other people. So, if I was Anne, I would probably let some select group of people (maybe certain friends or family members) in on the secret that she wields real authority over you and expects you to obey her. Speaking to you in an authoritative way in the presence of certain people would certainly humble you, wouldn’t it? Then, if the people were curious, that could lead to her revealing to them that she disciplines you, and maybe even to spanking you in front of a willing witness, as others have suggested.

 

 I vividly remember that, at the time, I found Danielle's comment to be both incredibly stimulating and incredibly disturbing. Very much like the first time I discovered the DWC. In fact, I think her comment may be part of what led me start really exploring and accepting how big a part the maternal archetype played in the roots of my DD interest. 

 

In another comment, Danielle noted that grounding can be even more humbling and role-enforcing than spankings, particularly when seen by other family members or other adults we know well:

 

“If children see that their mother has the authority to “ground” their father or to send him to bed early or to take away television privileges or to make him return something he bought without her "permission" to the store, those are clearer demonstrations of a real power imbalance than a spanking would be.

 

[Some see] adult/adult spanking [as] more clearly sexual in nature. Personally, I would argue that those other kinds of punishments are just as sexual as spanking because they are manifestations of a dominant/submissive relationship, but they would be less likely to appear sexual to an outside observer.  I think that non-spanking consequences are even more humiliating for Wayne than spankings because whereas spankings can be construed as nothing more than a sexual act between two adults, the removal of privileges shows clearly that I am not treating him as an adult.” 

 

That’s another thing that seems so powerful to me about grounding. 

It almost inherently involves others knowing, since it usually involves restricting the recipient from going out or spending time with others.   

 

That would be hard enough, but what if it were to be combined with an instruction that the husband must be honest when bowing out of said activities, relaying that the reason he can’t go out is because his wife has said he can’t go? 

 

Or, heaven forbid, an instruction to tell that friend that you are sitting on a well-spanked bottom and have been grounded for a week?

Now, that would be embarrassing!   

 

Interestingly, when I searched for spanking memes and pictures that at least suggested someone having to tell phone a friend to say they couldn't come out to play and were sitting on a freshly spanked bottom, I found three with women but not a single example with a male subject.  Similarly, I have several spanking drawings depicting women telling other women that they just spanked, or are in the process of spanking, their husbands.  I cannot find a single example of a man on the phone telling anyone--male or female--about a spanking or other exercise of disciplinary authority.  So, this clearly seems to be an area that men find more threatening that titillating.

 

While others may say that this is exactly why they aren’t interested in something like that, I would argue that’s exactly why it would be so effective as discipline.  The fact that you might much rather take a spanking may demonstrate why spanking might not be the pinnacle of effective possible punishments for your wfe to employ.

 

 

Anne has never made me tell anyone about a punishment, including grounding.  The closest she has come is when she made me verbally apologize to a work associate I had gone off on about something and had been mistaken about the basic facts.

 

In the past, I’m not sure if I could have handled it if she made me tell someone I was grounded, let alone that I had been spanked and grounded. Though, in truth, from the moment we started DD, I’ve been pretty good about complying with orders from Anne even when I found it very hard to do.  (That apology thing was excruciating because, even though I was wrong in that particular incident, the guy was a jerk and I knew he would take the apology as him being one up on me.)

So, I think I probably would have complied, though I undoubtedly would have found it mortifying. And, I now have one friend--probably the one I am the most likely to get in trouble with--who has so many times said things that indicates his wife wields all the real control in the family, I could see doing it now and possibly getting non-snickering response.

 

Grounding certainly is a powerful form of control.  To this day, I remember incidents in which one of my friends would be grounded by his mom. Although I don't think she believed in spanking, she was extremely rigorous about her groundings. I remember one day several of us came over to his house to pick him up for an outing, thinking that his grounding was over. But, when we got there, she pointed out that his week-long grounding still had 20 minutes to go from the exactday/time she imposed it. So, we had to sit there for 20 minutes as my friend quietly fumed.  I kind of had a thing for his mother before then, and I don’t doubt that incident reinforced that thing, even if at the time I thought only that she was a hot, older woman. 

It also seems so complementary to spanking as a punishment, it's easy for me to view any meme involving a strong maternal vibe and imagine the wife adding, "And, by the way, after I blister your butt, you are grounded for a week."

 

 

 How about you? Is grounding a part of your disciplinary relationship?  If not, would you want it to be?  For the wives, does grounding or imposing other forms of “childish” discipline on your husband have any attraction? Why or why not? If it's because he doesn't want it, should that even matter if the purpose is real punishment?

 

Please feel free to draw from any of the other examples Danielle used or similar forms of “parent like” control or punishment a wife could dole out if she chooses.

 

Have a good week.

The Club - Meeting 485 - Maintenance Spankings, and Getting Back on Track (cont.)

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." -- Benjamin Franklin

 

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplinary Couples Club.  Our weekly meeting of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline and/or Female Led (FLR) relationships.

 

Once again, before we get started, I would like to extend a specific invitation to our female readers to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We miss having you around.

 

I hope you all had a good week.  I’m still confronting the reality of the extent to which our summer and fall will, once some pre-approvals are wrapped up (gotta love managed care), come to a screeching halt. But, I’m also trying to keep it in perspective.

 

 

Thanks to all of you who participated in last week’s topic. I feel like there was a robust discussion around age and its influence on how we approach domestic discipline.  But, did we really do justice to Norton’s suggested topic, which was:

 

Another topic that we could explore is how to get things back on track after taking a break from spanking. We are dealing with that now, and in some ways, it feels like we are starting over.

 

If folks have more to contribute on that one, I would be interested in hearing it.  Some did say they had not experienced a substantial break from DD but, for those who have, what did you do to get back on track? Were there specific actions you took? Did you, as the recipient, need to ask for a spanking? Or, did you, as the wife, finally get fed up with unaddressed bad behavior?  Let’s please continue that discussion this week.

 

Relatedly, a few weeks ago, Antonio suggested this topic:

 

"Another topic we have only touched on briefly is maintenance discipline. We are finishing a nine day shakedown cruise in our new RV. For a number of reasons this had the potential to be quite stressful for me. During this entire trip, every morning Domino has made me take a short but intense maintenance spanking while reminding me to be aware of my attitude through the coming day, it has worked wonders for keeping my stress level low and helping us both enjoy our trip. Wondering if others have used or experienced this technique to head off trouble? I am ready to be home and have the maintenance sessions end though."

 

I actually don’t agree that we’ve touched on maintenance spankings only briefly, as we’ve devoted several full topics to it over the years, most recently about a year and a half ago.  But, while that isn’t all that long ago, I’m fine with addressing it again.

 

I do see the topic as somewhat related to Norton’s “getting back on track” topic, which is why I’m suggesting we cover both here this week.  The linkage between the two was illustrated by one of Al’s comments, referring back to one of J’s comments:

“>enables habits to be maintained<.

 

We came across this bit of advice in the old DWC forum, and made weekly maintenance spankings a part of our DWC lifestyle - for the purpose of maintaining the "spanking habit" and "disciplinary mentality" in our marriage.

 

In following forums such as this for decades, I have observed that it is not uncommon for the spanking habit to simply fade away due to the business and pressure of career and family life - unless there is a conscious effort to maintain it.”

 

I replied as follows:

 

I’ve always resisted the idea of maintenance spankings, and Anne has never been interested in them either. But, now that we seem to be in another lull, I wonder whether I do need to seriously reevaluate. I do think that if we could get more diligent about it, the weekly check-ins we were doing for a while would be a better vehicle for us, because they would keep the dynamic going but spankings would still be tied to misbehavior or lack of progress on goals, chores, etc.

 

My primary issue with maintenance spankings was basically the same as my concern about preventive spankings, i.e. was it really discipline if it didn’t involve punishing a particular action or failure.  I always wondered whether it was just an excuse for someone with a spanking fetish to get spanked more often.

 

I also used to see “maintenance” spankings as distinct from “preventative” spankings, but I now think the two can blur into each other.  For example, I probably would have categorized Mario’s daily spankings while on the RV trip as more “preventative” than maintenance. But, I now see some very obvious overlaps between the two.  To extent there is a clear distinction between the two, maybe it is the extent to which the spanking is tied to a discreet event, i.e. getting spanked before a party is preventative?  

 

The extent to which these all blend together was illustrated on one of the previous times we’ve addressed this topic. One of our past commenters “Liz” had this to say about what some here call maintenance, though she preferred another term:

 

“We do weekly spankings whether or not there have been any transgressions, but we don't call them maintenance. We consider them “motivational”: Art gets paddled every Monday morning to remind him to keep his arrogance to a minimum. I do believe in DD that is proactive in addition to reactive. Maybe that's what some couples mean by maintenance, but I don't care for the term. It sounds weird to me. I'm not his maintenance department. But yes, I like restricting DD to one day a week so it is not a dominating thing in our lives.”

 

Her husband Art offered this:

 

“I also have come to believe in preventive DD. Liz paddles me every Monday morning as a reminder to curb my arrogance. She spanks hard enough that sitting is uncomfortable for 2-3 days and I can even feel it as I walk. That discomfort serves as a constant reminder to be humble and keep my mouth shut when I want to make sarcastic comments. As the discomfort fades, so does my humility. All of my recent incidents of arrogance have come toward the end of the week.”

 

 Liz and Art’s comments show a blending of the concepts of prevention, maintenance, and punishment.  Liz’s references to “proactive” and “reactive” were echoed by Danielle, who liked the term “management”:

 

“If spanking is viewed purely as punishment, preventative spanking doesn’t make sense. But I view it as “behavior management,” rather than just punishment. I have used it in a specific context with my husband in the past. The men in my husband’s extended family have epic political arguments during family dinners. I have always found that annoying, especially when my husband gets involved, which he often does...or rather used to. Therefore, I have, on a couple of occasions, spanked him before going to a family dinner to heighten his consciousness of the behavior I expect of him. I also couple the preventative spanking with the implied threat that if I have to intervene in an argument during dinner, I just might "forget myself" and remind him of the consequences of misbehavior at the dinner table. I have found that it works. That’s the important thing to me.”

 

Liz also had an issue with frequency and the need to repeatedly discipline deeply rooted, ongoing habits.  Her husband’s issue was arrogance, which he apparently displayed more or less daily when she first took up the paddle after their marriage hit a very rocky place thanks to his behavior.  She did not want DD to dominate their lives and was unwilling to spank only for particular contemporaneous acts of arrogance, as that would entail spanking him nearly every day.  For her, spanking him once a week was both a kind of “catch up” covering all the issues during the week (including arrogance at work, which she wouldn’t necessarily learn about) and also a reminder for the following week.

 

 

Although I’ve struggled with whether pre-scheduled spankings are really disciplinary, I probably could get on board with them as a “catch up.” The reality is, it’s seldom a week goes by that there hasn’t been some transgression going unaddressed even though I wondered whether she would spank me for it.

 

For me, I still want there to be some connection between the particular spanking and the particular behavior. But, I saw this meme recently that I thought laid out a somewhat intriguing approach.

 

 

I liked it because, while the wife was imposing a pre-scheduled spanking routine, the timing and severity would adjust depending on the effect of the maintenance spankings on his behavior.  In the past, I've toyed with the idea of having some kind of a system in place where there would be a presumption of being spanked weekly but having the ability to earn my way out of it with good behavior.

 

Of course, maintenance might have a “role affirmation” function that is entirely separate from disciplinary or preventative rationales. Power exchange relationships like DD and FLR may require undoing a lot of deeply entrenched power dynamics and hierarchies.  If a woman was raised in a patriarchal environment, or if her marriage was itself an example of such an environment in the past she may need to periodically remind herself of her authority. 

 

Liz summed up all these various roles for maintenance and preventative spankings nicely in this single quote:

 

“I'm not sure if there has been a Monday morning when there was NOTHING to punish Art for. So we start with that. Then we move on to the upcoming week, though there really is no noticeable transition. On many Mondays nowadays there are more swats about the upcoming week than there were for the past week. To me that is a sign that our DD is working because he had a good week last week. But he admits that he needs a paddling to remind him to keep it up. If he completely stopped being arrogant, maybe the reminders would stop. But that's all speculative since his arrogance is unlikely to go away completely. I think the routine we have established of paddling him every Monday has been good for Art. He knows what to expect. And it is good for me too, to remind myself of the authority I now hold in our marriage. I don't have to and won't accept his arrogance anymore. Maybe we both need weekly reminders of that!”

 

How about you?  Do you practice preventative and/or maintenance spankings? What role do they serve?  Is their purpose to prevent bad behavior with a periodic reminder of what will happen, or is the purpose totally separate from deterring bad behavior?  Is there a pre-set schedule, like weekly on a particular day? 

 

How about severity? Is a maintenance spanking less severe than a punishment spanking?  Is the duration shorter? Or, are the timing, severity or duration flexible and variable based on his recent behavior? 

 

I hope you have a good week.