Saturday, August 19, 2017

The Forum - Vol. 219 - Poll & the Need for Female Disciplinarians


It is wrong and immoral to seek to escape the consequences of one's acts. - Mahatma Ghandi

Hi all.  Welcome back to The Forum.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationships.

What a week.   Work was busy, though I didn't a whole lot accomplished.  Largely because I kept popping over to Politico and NPR and the Economist to see the latest D.C. drama.  It's sort of like the people who go to NASCAR not for the race but to see a crash.  It's sort of like DD -- it is painful and humiliating yet I can't stop myself from coming back for more.

A few weeks ago, I posted a poll related to our topic of why people choose Domestic Discipline.  Looking at the trends yesterday, I was sure we would hit 100 responses, but it failed by four votes.  Close enough, I guess.  I'm not sure what to read into the fact that this blog averages over a thousand pageviews a day, yet less than 10% take the time to hit a button.  Apathy?  The poll topic wasn't interesting?  Less than one in ten who visit here are actually in a DD relationship? One hand on the remote control and one wanking, leaving no hand available to push the little button?  Who knows. Anyway, here are the results:

Accountability or penance                                                      46 (47%)
Boundaries and rules make me feel better or safer                37 (38%)
Handing control over to someone for awhile                         53 (55%)
Stress relief                                                                             34 (35%)
I like my wife strong and powerful                                        49 (51%)
It's primarily about a spanking interest or fetish                    35 (36%)
I like pain                                                                          9 (9%)
Other                                                                                 4 (4%)


I need to say at the outset, this may be one of the worst constructed polls I've ever done, because it's missing at least one big option, namely performance improvement.  I guess that is kind of wrapped up in "accountability," but only obliquely.  I also wonder what would have happened had I forced people to choose their primary motivation.

It is at least somewhat comforting to me that at least some fairly significant portion of respondents seem to be in this for the same reasons I am -- some mixture of accountability, the desire to hand over control to someone else for awhile, and being attracted to a strong and powerful woman. There is some good stuff to unpack in here.

Strong women are wanted.  So many women in these relationships hold themselves back over concerns that "strong" equates to "bitchy."  Clearly not so for most of the people who took the time to take this poll.  Wanting a strong and powerful wife was the second most common motivation for wanting a DD relationship, right behind wanting to surrender control to someone else sometimes.
And, it's not like accomplished women are in short supply these days.  While discrimination still obviously exists, I don't think it is a stretch to say that it is increasingly becoming a female dominated world.  In 2009, the number of women in the workforce exceeded men for the first time.  In 2014, women accounted for 55% of undergraduates in four-year colleges. Once there, they tend to earn higher grades and drop out less. Women get more Masters and Doctorate degrees than their male counterparts.  In 2016, for the first time women outnumbered men in law school.  

Accountability is wanted -- and needed.  Every time we've had a poll or topic on what men want out of DD, accountability or needing to face the consequences of bad behavior are at or near the top of the charts.  There is certainly an argument to be made that men need that accountability more than ever and that women should rule because they just aren't as susceptible to "Darwin Award" kinds of dumb-ass behavior.  I read a telling statistic recently.  Between the ages of 15 and 24, men are three times more likely to die than women, because they are far more likely to engage in reckless behavior or violence. Motor vehicle accidents are the most common cause of death for males in this age group, followed by homicide, suicide, cancer and drowning.

Men want to hand over control.  In this poll, wanting to hand over control to someone else was the high scoring motivator for getting into a DD relationship.  It is definitely part of the attraction for me.  I describe my own need to hand over control in terms of needing more boundaries and rules.  So, again, I may have constructed the poll very poorly in that it separated need to hand over control and need for boundaries into two different categories, when maybe they are two facets of the same general drive.

The open question for me in all this is whether women want the authority and control that many men obviously are more than willing to give them.  A few years ago, I was talking to a close female friend about the whole Fifty Shades phenomenon. I told her that I had a hard time reconciling that women are, on the hand, striving hard to get at least equal treatment in the workplace, and they've had thousands of years of being seen as the weaker sex and relegated to second-class roles.  So, why were so many of them attracted to a book about female submission and giving up control to a man.  She gave me a kind of world-weary sigh and said, "Look.  Most women already are in control at home.  The reality is, we basically run the house, raise the kids and make most of the day-to-day decisions.  So, on the home front, if there is a power gap, the women are already in charge."

Wise words.  In your own household, when you started Domestic Discipline, was it really just an extension of a dynamic that was already there?  In other words, was your wife already mostly in charge, and DD was just an incremental extension?  Or, was it a reversal of your normal dynamic or an exception to it.  I also wonder whether women who are already in control of the household would be happier if they did see disciplining their husbands as just part of that role.  Heaven knows we seem to need it.  This aspect of DD at home is one reason I love hearing from Holly, as it sounds like her mother saw disciplining her father as no different from disciplining and raising the kids.

Also, note the new poll, which asks those who are in DD relationships to identify which spouse initiated the DD aspects of the relationship, the spanker or the spankee.  I decided to make this one a binary choice, so please pick the one answer that most closely fits your situation.

34 comments:

  1. Hi Dan,

    It's a been a long time since I've commented. I'm sorry to hear of the problematic commenters and I can see how it would be frustrating for you. To answer your questions:

    " So, my question for the regulars is, would requiring a Google account end your participation? "

    It would end my participation. I'm technically challenged and I'm most reluctant to do anything different. As well, I have a policy of not registering for anything for fear of spam or other problems. As soon as I see a requirement to register to get information I exit the website.

    "Also, would you have any interest in some separate form of communication, whether another blog or a Facebook group, if it too required some kind of registration? "

    Have you considered FetLife? The demographics of it would be highly favourable to this topic.

    I_ObeyHer
    (my FetLife name)

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    1. Hi IOH. I understand people who are technically challenged, but if you have A FetLife account, then you've gone through a registration process that is as challenging as getting a Google account. In either case, it's just a matter of entering a proposed name and a password.

      I think migrating to FetLife would exacerbate the problem, not solve it. One of my issues is the number of people who are currently ignoring the DD theme of the blog and just treating it like a place for spanking fetishists. I think FetLife would be highly likely to ramp that up, while simultaneously screening out a lot of the more vanilla crowd who I do want to find this content.

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  2. I obey Her captures my feelings on only accepting registered users comments.

    I am an avid follower. It is the first thing I look for each Saturday. I have or should I say my wife and I have shared and conversed many of the topics and it has been a great source of education and discussion for us. It has allowed me to bring in to discussion many topics I may have been previously apprehensive about broaching.

    While not a regular contributor I have mad a few comments which were heartfelt and sincere.

    However like I ObeyHer I too am technically challenged and having to register would
    more than likely end my opportunity for any commenting.

    I already have a Google account and although I know it is possible to create a completely fictitious name by greatest fear is:
    A. I would screw up and the two would start inter-mingling
    B. I would mistakenly post something to the blog under my real account name due to haste, or just plain stupidity.

    So on behalf of all your regular viewers albeit, part time commenters I ask that you re-consider.

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    1. See my comments above. I get that opening an email account imposes a one-time technical step, but anyone who has a current email account has done it at least once.

      Now, the intermingling or screwing up is a more serious issue. I try to solve it by using separate browsers depending on what account I am intending to access. But, I myself have screwed up on the site and used my real first name at the bottom of the post.

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    2. I can't risk that happening

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  3. I think it could be a viable option for those who are interested in a forum for building up an additional level of trust and possibly, dare I even broach the subject, get to know one another personally.

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    1. True, though I'm not sure there is a large enough core group that is willing to "out" their true identities. I myself am not there yet. Maybe a few years from now when career is less of an issue, but for now I'm not really willing to let more than handful of people know about this side of our life. A "handful" at present being precisely 2. That's the real issue with Facebook as an option. I like people having the ability to post their current thoughts, chat, etc. But, Facebook also makes it more of a challenge to post anonymously. It can be done, but it takes a little more creativity.

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    2. OH I agree about generally keeping identities private. I thought you were talking about people creating a new account, using any moniker that worked for them, for this new entity and maybe get more intimately acquainted in that setting. My thought was that within that context, if some trust got built up, individuals could reach out and connect with one another, via email for example, to develop things further. But maybe we have that basic opportunity in the existing format. Heck. What do i know? :)

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  4. Here is an in-depth article about how little boys are "socialized" to deny, hide, and/or sublimate their emotions. I offer it because it seems very relevant to the many of the issues we address on this forum.

    http://www.salon.com/2017/08/19/the-damage-we-do-to-boys-and-men-that-explains-the-trump-presidency_partner/

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    1. Thanks, Tomy. Very interesting stuff, with many layers. I've been thinking about similar issues recently, and I can't say I have any answers. On the one hand, I think it lets guys like Trump off too easy to attribute his tendencies to to wider cultural issues. Many men manage to grow up with the same inputs without becoming douchebags. I often think of my father as an example. Based on his educational history, where he was raised, economic class, etc., he looks on the surface like the epitome of a guy who would love Trump. And, he is truly one of the toughest men I have ever met. A guy who in his younger days could and did clean out bars in fights. In those younger days, he was really a force of nature and one of those "traditional men" the article sees as damaged. And, in some ways he may be by virtue of being all man all the time. Yet, he totally hates Trump and sees him as a "blowhard," because in his world men who really are tough don't need to talk and brag about it.

      I had an incident last week that made me re-think some of the things I have been doing, including consciously trying to sand off some of my rougher edges, explore the more feminine side, etc. I won't go into the details, but will just say I had a work incident in which someone desperately needed an ass-kicking, verbal or otherwise, and it was really enjoyable giving them one. I think one reason the Democrats are struggling so much right now is, in fact, because as a party it just seems insistent on elevating being non-offensive to the only value. All the "triggers" and "safe zones" crap on college campuses. Traditional "manliness' may be a problem, but so is elevating chronic whining and hand-wringing.

      It's also interesting how much of the bad behavior cited in the article may be tied to innate factors, including most directly testosterone levels. There is more and more evidence that both men and women with high T levels engage in more aggressive behavior and more risk taking.

      But, I do like the larger point that I think can be taken from the article, i.e. that the culture tends to reward established gender roles, and that isn't necessarily good for either sex. It may b working out better for women right now, because women are increasingly accepted in the workplace in male roles. On the other side, not so much. How many male nurses and daycare workers do you see?

      Anyway, important points. Thanks for raising them

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    2. For me, the part of the article that referred to the way even infants are unconsciously "socialized" was, well shocking. Anything less than total nurturing of those babies is awful. It hurts me just to think of it. I guess that part of the article was so profound that I scarcely paid attention to the Trump references. Which by the way, in my opinion, is the one real counter-measure I think can work with him. NOT giving him attention. I get it..He is the president and can't be totally ignored. But personally, I pass on 90% of the Trump stuff in the news. Not worth the bandwidth in my brain.

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  5. These comments also express fears that I have:

    "A. I would screw up and the two would start inter-mingling
    B. I would mistakenly post something to the blog under my real account name due to haste, or just plain stupidity."

    I_ObeyHer

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  6. I like the discussion about ego and age and society. I recently read the art of loving where eric fromm argues that that our patriarch leaning causes difficulties practicing love because of our inability to be open and our tendency to value the "doer" vs earlier matriarch where societies were more attentive to others to survive. Fromm points out that discipline is a key part of practicing an art, especially love. Rcb.

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    1. Thanks, RCB. I haven't read Fromm's stuff. If you know what "earlier matriarch" societies is he referring to? I've done some very cursory research on this topic in the past, and there doesn't seem to be a whole hell of a lot of solid support for the premise that there have been true matriarchal societies, at least not of any scale. If Fromm (or others you know of) show the contrary, I would be very interested in seeing that.

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  7. I have a google account which has my real name. I would register again if necessary. I think facebook or fetlife would be poor choices to bring this blog to.

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    1. Of course, you wouldn't need to register again, as you already are registered. I'm really asking whether those who aren't registered at all, who just post anonymously, see it as problematic to register using a fake name

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  8. Mrs GLM is in public life, I could never risk that my forgoing anonimity simple because I found a decent forum that engages my liking of chastisement side.

    Cheers GLM

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    1. To some extent, I am in the same boat. But, see my comment below to JR. Facebook does make it hard to register using a fake name, but a Google account really doesn't.

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  9. It be easiest if left as is. I think you have my personal email from when I contacted you last year anyway.

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    1. True, though the status quo is always the easiest thing to do. The problem I'm having is that "easy" for anonymous commenters is becoming part of the problem, as (a) there seems to be less and less real interaction from people who are genuinely trying to talk about their DD issues; and (b) more and more time spent on my end dealing with trolls or posts that just don't have a damn thing to do with what the blog is about. I understand the above concerns with anonymity, and I share them myself. But, you are a perfect example of why registration doesn't seem to me to put anonymity at risk, because while you are registered Blogger user, when I go to your profile literally I can see is you use the name Jr.

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    2. First time I was ever perfect at anything. 😂

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  10. Apologies if you have already seen this, but not sure if the browser sent through my message the first time.

    My wife and I discussed the subject of domestic discipline before we were married. Husband spanking was a feature with both sets of parents, but I raised it with her just to be absolutely sure we were aligned in our thinking and she was in agreement. "Husband spankers" tend to pass through a patrilineal line around here, so we were aware that the spanking paddle used on my father would come my way and be used on me on my wedding night.

    I wouldn't favour something that requires login credentials, as my anonymity is the only thing that makes me willing to speak so openly about this subject and I enjoy being in this position where I can talk openly about it.

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  11. I would consider setting up an account - perhaps Live Journal or one of the other options. I am getting tired of picking out the street signs!

    Is there a middle ground where non-Anonymous accounts could post directly and anonymous ones would be moderated? It is unusual to give anonymous users permission to post directly on a site.

    As far as your question goes, yes, my wife has always been "in charge" at home. Fortunately, we don't often encounter issues where there's any big disagreement between us, but she is typically the initiator of projects such as home improvements, new car leases and choosing vacations. I help with the research and support her, but I'm generally very happy with her decisions.

    Our DD relationship has grown out of that, and yet, being disciplined by her is a project that I've initiated, hopefully for both our benefits.
    CrimsonKing

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    1. Hi Crimson King. Thanks for being the first to actually respond to the topic this week!

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    2. Also, I totally agree on the street signs are annoying. Unfortunately, that feature" is something that, as far as I know, I can't change.

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  12. As time has gone on the FLR decision-making aspect of our relationship has morphed into something so fluid and organic that it is actually difficult for me (who loves precision) to describe how it works and what its boundaries are. It just seems like there are times when we both know Rosa has the final say and other times where we would appear very egalitarian to anyone watching us......or even at times it might seem I was in charge.

    I suppose her dominance is very natural and there are areas she is very confident in keeping tight control over......but it is not ubiquitous nor even consistent in its diversity. It just sort of happens. And there are things I feel very strongly about .....and perhaps due to this being my second 'marriage'and not wanting any repeats of the issues from my first, I am more adamant about some positions that another sub male would probably just give in to.

    It ends up being not as intense as some FLRs as a result......but it is still real and in effect.......just very personal and intuitive.

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    1. Makes total sense. I'm sure many "real world" FLRs look a lot like that.

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    2. My relationship with Shilo appears much like kdpierre's. There are things I do that appear very submissive at times, but I don't feel it makes me any less Dominant.

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  13. Hi Dan,
    First off, let me say that this blog is by far my favorite. I doubt that there have been more than 5 days in the last year that I not checked it at least once in a day. Although I usually have some sort of comment rolling around in my mind, I only get around to posting comments every month or two. So probably when I actually get around to posting something, I would do regardless of what kind of hoops I had to jump through (signing in, for example).
    I probably don't fully appreciate the scope of the problem, since I am not the one having to filter out commercial porn ads, never-ending stories of the thing someone has for his mother in law, and the accusations that anyone into DD is a sadist, ironically from someone who can't seem to stay away from DD websites himself!
    I do think that moving to Fetlife would be a step completely in the wrong direction, since it would make it much less accessible to those who are not fetishists. Also, it would make it that much harder to share with a possibly vanilla spouse.
    I appreciate your efforts to keep us focused on DD and FLR. Of course, there is a very broad range of people who are somewhat into this lifestyle in some way, whether spanking fetishists, DD adherents, or those in a FLR to varying degrees. As you know, it is not uncommon to gradually drift from one catagory to another, so today's spanking fetishisht might well be in a true DD relationship in the future, which might at sometime turn into an FLR. For this reason, I like to get all the different input so I can see things from different perspectives. For me, it definitely started as a spanking fetish, but over time I have realized that fantasy spankings don't really do it for me, and it is real discipline (and punishment as necessary) that I want and need.
    All this is to say that I support whichever direction you take the blog, but do hope that we will continue to get a broad range of people contributing!
    -ZM

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    1. Hi ZM. First, thanks for the compliments. Second, all good points. I do get concerned that people may take my focus on trying to keep the blog focused on DD as some kind of rejection of other lifestyles, and I do want to say that's not at all the case. The issue is there are plenty of generic spanking sites out there. There are plenty of Femdom sites out there. There are not a whole lot of DD blogs and websites focused on F/m-oriented DD relationships. So, I'm resistant to letting people push it toward a generic spanking fetish blog. It's also, honestly, just kind of rude, and it's something I try not to do myself. I'll give a real world example. I love the Hermione's Heart blog. But, her orientation is toward erotic or "funishment" spankings, and if I were to comment every week, I would always have to be caveating with "All my spankings are punishment, so . . . ." So, while I love her blog, if I posted in response to all her topics I would really be talking about an aspect of the lifestyle that isn't consistent with her overall theme. Therefore, I comment when the topic is either more generic or when it is tightly focused on disciplinary or punishment spankings. Otherwise, I try to do her the courtesy of not injecting my DD perspective onto her non-DD blog.

      Also, the thing I find that is becoming more on an irritant is I really would like more of a conversation to take place among men and women who are in real DD relationships or who genuinely want to be in them. That gets hard to do when 9 out of 10 comments are from spankos or fetishists who really are not into DD or only as some surface level gloss on their spanking interest. It just drowns out everything else.

      So, I'm not sure where this will go. I'm leaning toward this blog staying in something like it's current form but having an "invitation only" portion or separate blog or other communication vehicle.

      Delete
  14. Hi Dan,
    I thought it better to write separately for distinctly different topics, to make it seem less like "stream-of-consciousness!"

    There is undoubtedly a lot of crossover between several of the poll categories, and I found myself thinking that almost all of the motivations applied to me. While maybe they are just different facets of the same basic drive, I do think it aids in understanding ourselves better when we break them down individually instead of just leaving them all clumped together.

    For me, I know that I want and need boundaries in my life, and feel like life is reeling out of control if they are not there. On the other hand, I am someone who ignores or pushes every boundary, so I need accountability (probably because I lack sufficient self-discipline). To get this much-needed accountability means that I must give up control to someone, at least for specific aspects of life, and who better to do that with than my wife, who shares life with me? So of course, I am someone who needs a very strong woman as my wife, and yes, if necessary she can cross over into "bitchy" even though it is definitely not a part of her regular personality. This whole thing started as a spanking fetish, but I have realized over the years that I need much more than "fantasy" spankings, but rather real punishment for real infractions. I don't know that I like pain all that much, at least at the time I am experiencing it, but it is a very necessary element for me to appreciate the control that she has. And finally, while I don't need spankings for "stress relief" per se, my undisciplined lifestyle inevitably results in a huge amount of stress for me, so having some discipline imposed on me does ultimately result in much less stress for me (and those around me).

    In our house, my wife and I are equal partners in most every way. We talk about and agree upon all major decisions. Having said that, she definitely keeps the house under control because she is much more organized than me and our children. However, she doesn't come across as being "in-charge" so much as just as being the one who has it all together.

    I think that it depends on the situation whether her disciplining me is just an incremental extension of our normal dynamic or a reversal from our normal dynamic. For example, she really doesn't like it that I don't wash my hands nearly enough, so she wants to teach me to wash my hands more often and more thoroughly. If she disciplines me for not washing my hands, this is probably an extension of our normal dynamic. While she really wants me to improve at this, there is not a lot of emotion involved on her part, and it would be pretty matter of fact. Something needs to be done, and she will do it...

    On the other hand, if she is angry at me about some action or behavior, the whole dynamic swiftly changes and the power transfer is much more dramatic. At this point, she becomes someone other than her normal sweet self and I incur her wrath until such point as she feels I have truly learned a lesson and her feelings are all adequately expressed.

    For me, I get the best of both worlds. I have a wonderful, loving, equal relationship with my wife on a day-to-day basis, but with the comfort of knowing that boundaries exist, that I will be held accountable, and that if I stray too far from those boundaries, she can become the very strong woman to assume control and literally reduce me to tears if she chooses to.

    -ZM

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    1. "For me, I know that I want and need boundaries in my life, and feel like life is reeling out of control if they are not there. On the other hand, I am someone who ignores or pushes every boundary, so I need accountability (probably because I lack sufficient self-discipline)." I really couldn't have said it better myself. Your entire comment is pretty congruent with my own motivations and lifestyle. Other than I can pretty clearly say I have no interest in pain for pain's sake. I have a very (sometimes weirdly) high tolerance for it, but I don't enjoy it at all. Of all the motivations in the poll, that is one I don't have in any way.

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