“If it is the dirty element that gives pleasure to the act of lust, then
the dirtier it is, the more pleasurable it is bound to be.”― Marquis de Sade, The 120 Days of Sodom
Hi all. Welcome back to The Forum: Disciplined Husbands & Disciplinary Wives. Our weekly gathering of men and women participating or interested in Domestic Discipline and/or Female Led Relationships. I hope you all had a great week.
Last week's topic was about one specific variant of the theme of "openness," namely how open people would be sharing their DD lifestyle with their adult kids. It was a good conversation and, as I anticipated, there were widely varying views. It also ranged into some related areas, such as vindictive spouses letting out the secret during divorce proceedings (a risky move, given that using a paddle in DD fashion could be an assault under the laws in some states -- hint hint to anyone who might think of engaging in such a despicable breach of trust) and, on the other end of the trust spectrum, Peter overcoming his embarrassment to trust a friend in need with the secret to his marital success.
This week's topic is somewhat related. A few weeks ago, Alan observed that it would be good if sometime in the future society was comfortable with a woman being openly in charge and her man being openly submissive. Men are certainly doing their part to hasten that day, with our behavior seemingly going from bad to worse. The plain fact is, the statistics are clear that women are increasingly beating our asses in the race of life, pun very much intended. Women are being admitted to college in greater numbers than men. They are graduating from professional programs in rates greater than men. Just a generation ago, women had virtually no presence in American law schools, but they now graduate in numbers greater than men. Books are even being written about the bad track men are on. A fascinating one to add to your summer reading list is The End of Men: And the Rise of Women by Hanna Rosin. It doesn't leave much doubt about why women seem to be increasingly comfortable saying, "My house, my rules."
Now, all of that is probably music to the ears of the crowd who reads this blog. But, should it be? Would a society that was more openly Female Dominated be a good thing? And, to Alan's comment, what about openness in general about This Thing We Do? Maybe surprisingly for a guy who writes a blog devoted to promoting DD and FLR relationships, I am pretty firmly on the fence about whether more openness would be a good thing. On the one hand, tolerance of other lifestyles is almost always a good thing. But, I'm not really talking about tolerance, so much as genuine acceptance and adoption of DD and FLR lifestyles. The fact is, while the perceived need to keep these things private does inhibit us in publicly expressing our FLR bent, I kind of like the secret aspect of it. Dictionary definitions of "kinky" include "relating to, having, or appealing to unconventional tastes especially in sex." Well, who the hell wants to be conventional? And if everyone starts doing it, then it is by definition, conventional. For me, I am not sure that being in this lifestyle would have quite the same appeal if everyone else was doing it and if it was fully accepted by everyone else out there in the vanilla world.
So, that is today's topic: Would more openness to and greater adoption of DD and FLR lifestyles by the wider society be a good thing? Is it something you want? Or, is part of the attraction to DD and FLR that they are, in fact, not the norm and that there is something unconventional, and dare I say naughty and kinky about them? If the taboo were removed, would that necessarily be a good thing for you and your DD and FLR relationship?
Have a great week! As always, if you are new to our group, please stop by the Guestbook (see tab above) and tell us a little something about yourself.
Hi all. Welcome back to The Forum: Disciplined Husbands & Disciplinary Wives. Our weekly gathering of men and women participating or interested in Domestic Discipline and/or Female Led Relationships. I hope you all had a great week.
Last week's topic was about one specific variant of the theme of "openness," namely how open people would be sharing their DD lifestyle with their adult kids. It was a good conversation and, as I anticipated, there were widely varying views. It also ranged into some related areas, such as vindictive spouses letting out the secret during divorce proceedings (a risky move, given that using a paddle in DD fashion could be an assault under the laws in some states -- hint hint to anyone who might think of engaging in such a despicable breach of trust) and, on the other end of the trust spectrum, Peter overcoming his embarrassment to trust a friend in need with the secret to his marital success.
This week's topic is somewhat related. A few weeks ago, Alan observed that it would be good if sometime in the future society was comfortable with a woman being openly in charge and her man being openly submissive. Men are certainly doing their part to hasten that day, with our behavior seemingly going from bad to worse. The plain fact is, the statistics are clear that women are increasingly beating our asses in the race of life, pun very much intended. Women are being admitted to college in greater numbers than men. They are graduating from professional programs in rates greater than men. Just a generation ago, women had virtually no presence in American law schools, but they now graduate in numbers greater than men. Books are even being written about the bad track men are on. A fascinating one to add to your summer reading list is The End of Men: And the Rise of Women by Hanna Rosin. It doesn't leave much doubt about why women seem to be increasingly comfortable saying, "My house, my rules."
Now, all of that is probably music to the ears of the crowd who reads this blog. But, should it be? Would a society that was more openly Female Dominated be a good thing? And, to Alan's comment, what about openness in general about This Thing We Do? Maybe surprisingly for a guy who writes a blog devoted to promoting DD and FLR relationships, I am pretty firmly on the fence about whether more openness would be a good thing. On the one hand, tolerance of other lifestyles is almost always a good thing. But, I'm not really talking about tolerance, so much as genuine acceptance and adoption of DD and FLR lifestyles. The fact is, while the perceived need to keep these things private does inhibit us in publicly expressing our FLR bent, I kind of like the secret aspect of it. Dictionary definitions of "kinky" include "relating to, having, or appealing to unconventional tastes especially in sex." Well, who the hell wants to be conventional? And if everyone starts doing it, then it is by definition, conventional. For me, I am not sure that being in this lifestyle would have quite the same appeal if everyone else was doing it and if it was fully accepted by everyone else out there in the vanilla world.
So, that is today's topic: Would more openness to and greater adoption of DD and FLR lifestyles by the wider society be a good thing? Is it something you want? Or, is part of the attraction to DD and FLR that they are, in fact, not the norm and that there is something unconventional, and dare I say naughty and kinky about them? If the taboo were removed, would that necessarily be a good thing for you and your DD and FLR relationship?
Have a great week! As always, if you are new to our group, please stop by the Guestbook (see tab above) and tell us a little something about yourself.
Since we are pretty open already we aren't in any great need of 'acceptance' beyond that which we already have.
ReplyDeleteAs for whether or not DD would lose its appeal if everyone started doing it? Not for us. It is who we are whether we were the only ones doing it or one of a billion couples doing it. Since I love booze analogies, think of it this way. When I was 18 there was no craft beer industry............yet for me the standard "Bud Market" left me thinking something was missing. So I pursued every avenue then available.....but I was in a minority. Suddenly a new wave of micro-brew beers began to appear to my delight. Then the market for that grew 'popular'. I was a member of the majority for once. What did I care? It was now easier to get good beer. And now the craft industry has gone in an opposite extreme. Almost everything is a novelty flavor as opposed to the masterfully brewed classics of a decade ago. So I am again a minority.......seeking what is again more elusive.
I am true to myself. Popularity neither drives me towards something nor away from it.
I was with you on that analogy, until the last couple of sentences. Once everyone started doing craft beers, it diluted the whole experience for you and now you are searching for something else. Doesn't that verify the point that once something saturates, it isn't special anymore?
DeleteNo, I think you misunderstood. My objection to the initial "popular" beer industry was the lack of quality in proven, historic, varied styles. Then those types of beers were being produced more and more (and they still are) but now the novelty market is producing beers with every fruit or herb infused flavor imaginable so that just finding a good solid, pale ale is again not as easy as it used to be just a few years ago. But if you want grapefruit, blueberry, pumpkin, apricot, etc. every craft brewery has their own version. So it's that 'popularity' that I am at odds with..............not the popularity itself.
DeleteI am still seeking what I like and for a brief period that personal preference aligned with what was popular. When what I liked was more popular, it did not diminish my enjoyment of it. Nor will "what's popular" drive my tastes in a direction I don't personally enjoy. So just because you are a respected brewery and I may regularly buy your IPA, doesn't mean I'm going to rush out to buy your pumpkin ale in October......just because the novelty drinkers are.
I have a problem with the usage of "kinky." Consider this: If a couple routinely does something in the bedroom, doesn't it cease to be "kinky" at least for them?
ReplyDeleteThere are people in this world who think that anything but missionary position without foreplay is kinky (poor souls!) People who only engage in intercourse under the covers in the dark!
Yes, I associate myself with the word "kinky" but I don't consider myself to be kinky. If more people were "out" about what they did, it wouldn't change what I do or how I do it, and I'm of the opinion that what I do is special, because I'm doing it.
Dan
ReplyDeleteIf we are honest there is something attractive to us about resorting to discipline and exploring a FLM.
I would only hope that we are never so open that what we do becomes a topic for PTA meetings or
pot lucks. I think your quote from De Sade say it all.
anna
Hi Anna. Yeah, I try to find quotes that actually fit the topic, though sometimes that is more challenging than others and, then, I just drop back to something about women and/or power. Still seems to work. De Sade was twisted, but also a pretty wise dude about the workings of power and control.
DeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteMy answers below:
Would more openness to and greater adoption of DD and FLR lifestyles by the wider society be a good thing? Is it something you want?
I think it would be a helpful to a lot of women and save a lot of marriages. It would also be nice to be able to talk to others over a beer as you said.
Or, is part of the attraction to DD and FLR that they are, in fact, not the norm and that there is something unconventional, and dare I say naughty and kinky about them?
We are wired this way and being unconventional doesn't attract me to the need.
If the taboo were removed, would that necessarily be a good thing for you and your DD and FLR relationship?
I can't see why it would hurt, and discussing it with friends would be nice.
John
Thanks, John. I agree that some are "wired" this way, though I don't think that is true of everyone. If the routes people take into these relationships are any indication, people come to it in all sorts of ways, for all sorts of reasons.
DeleteIf I really think about my friends who are in long term relationships, the women seem to be mostly in charge anyway. They make or strongly influence most decisions and generally run the house, the kids, etc. They talk more openly together than we seem to do and they allow their men to play their games, earn the money but mostly call the shots. May just be the mainly middle class people I know. Although interesting to see how some of the major countries are or will be led by women...
ReplyDeleteHow many of these couples use DD as part of that female leadership? Who knows but it is probably not that common as it feels like that DD relationships need an unusual level of honesty, openness and communication to work on a long term basis.
Do I want other people to know about the more intimate details of my relationship? No, I don't and why would I? We are quite private about most things and I can see no benefit in explaining. Would I be really bothered if people did find out? No, not really as I see this as something very special, that keeps me in line, creates balance in our relationship and I am proud that we have the strength of relationship which has allowed this dynamic to develop and flourish.
As I have explained to my wife, I don't feel weird or kinky - I have always had the need/interest and it has been a real step forward being able to share this with her.
TB
"Who knows but it is probably not that common as it feels like that DD relationships need an unusual level of honesty, openness and communication to work on a long term basis."
DeleteGreat observation. Thanks TB.
I think there are a lot of homes where the woman is in charge most men I thing like to keep discipline a private thing I have had a couple of spankings where her friends would stop by after the spanking I think a lot of men would like their wives to take control but keep it private !
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that is true.
DeleteDan
ReplyDeleteOnce I allowed myself to admit that DD is not only something I wanted but more important it was something we needed as a couple, it became easier to be open and honest with Anna. Please know
that I am far from perfect as Anna is forced to tell me almost daily. I may be a work in progress but
I feel now I am a more content work in progress.
peter
Yes, aren't we all?
DeleteHello Dan,
ReplyDeleteCertainly more openness and wider adoption of DD would be a good thing for those who wish or need a DD relationship and I believe many more relationships would benefit from it ( I see a lot of naughty males) Many more women would be interested in DD if no stigma attached to it.That might lessen the exotic thrill aspect of it for some but few would stop DD just because it became more mainstream. Some of this is bound to occur as women become more secure being assertive and men realize many of their problems stem from lack of self discipline.( I often tell Jay I discipline him because he lacks self discipline and the way to reduce spanking is to develop that self discipline)I am already open about controlling him but not about the physical punishment he receives. But he has been kidded by his buddies about " getting it at home". I doubt any of them mean being spanked but they know who is in charge.Having said all this I don't think DD will increase dramatically until more of us openly discuss spanking as a relationship tool with friends and family.I am struggling with this but have done very little to date.As long as domestic discipline remains in the closet it will remain taboo for most.
Marisa
Hi Marisa. That was what I was trying to get at with last week's question -- is there any movement toward being more open with family, such as kids once they are adults. Didn't seem so. I really wish there was a way to figure out how many people do practice DD. Obviously many have participated in erotic spankings, but DD is not the same thing. I have no idea how prevalent it is, and I suspect that people who think it may be fairly prevalent but in the closet are wrong. Anecdotally, there aren't that many blogs that focus on domestic discipline, so I have to think this one gets it's fair share of the traffic that is out there. Yet, a busy day is about 2,000 visitors. That really is not very many in the scheme of things.
DeleteHi Dan
DeleteThere is data out there suggesting that 20 percent or possibly more of people have some interest in spanking. But what portion of this is oriented toward an FLR is anyone's guess.Also FLR's run the gamut from the once or twice a year disciplinary spanking to a 24 -7 relationship using spanking weekly or more often. It seems likely we are a minority in the spanking community.More men than women are interested in spanking and women who are interested in spanking are at least twice as likely to be spankee's or wish to be .Feminism is producing more assertive take charge women but its going to be a long time if ever that FLR relationships become the norm ( although respected writers like Elise Sutton predict it will happen) Spanking is much less taboo than even ten years ago and that combined with evolving roles for women will produce more female led relationships using spanking.But Marisa is right that this is held back by the reluctance many of us have to discuss spanking outside our relationship.
Alan
Should there be more openness that the women is in charge in public? I believe so. But only to a certain extent. I think it's OK to have her man submissively follow silently behind her while she shops. However, I don't think its appropriate for her to in anyway verbally berate him in public. Same goes the other way around as well. I see more women asserting their authority over their male partners in public all the time. But are we ready for it to go mainstream in this country? Sadly, me thinks not.
ReplyDeleteM in the desert
Thanks, M.
DeleteIn many ways having things be more mainstream would help with our moral dilemmas but may decrease my own personal enjoyment of the kink side of things.
ReplyDeleteI think this blog has purist DD. And a more DD is part of a larger kink way of looking at things.
Personally there is an embarrassment factor. Humiliation if you will. Of being disciplined. Of others knowing or potentially knowing. Of bring part of a FLR. So to the point of the prior post shopping and being meek as I follow has a definite attraction.
But the moral dilemma.
Is it right to include others in what we done without their consent? If my spouse were to hold up a nighty to see if it would fit me in a store then everyone knows it's for me. That we are kinky. They did not consent to be part of that. Is that fair.
Extend that to DD. Getting disciple In the washroom at the mall. Still private but still public too. Others will know what's going on. Or at a party. Others would know.
If DD or FLR was more mainstream we could do these things with less concern. Selfishly it would decrease my enjoyment. I don't think it would change that as a couple we still need or want to do it. As a man I still need it or deserve it.
So I vote for more acceptable would be better and too bad for the snall elemeny of my personal enjoyment of how we live
"Is it right to include others in what we done without their consent? If my spouse were to hold up a nighty to see if it would fit me in a store then everyone knows it's for me. That we are kinky. They did not consent to be part of that. Is that fair."
DeleteTo answer a question with a question, would you see the same moral issue at work if your wife held up a nightie to herself to get your views on whether it was sexy? What about if a woman held up a nightie to another woman, because they were a lesbian couple?
Maybe I'm selfish in this, but I think that there are more problems caused by worry over offending the most sensitive person in the room than could ever be caused by actually offending that person. We risk dumbing down all society if we let the people who are most easily offended set the rules by default.
Dan,
DeleteI agree strongly with you on this. Shocking people is not something I would set out to do or enjoy. But PC thinking has become so extreme we worry more about being offensive than being right,. In any case most adults benefit from being shocked once in a while. Its called growth.
Alan
Agreed. Though, I admit I kind of do get some perverse joy out of shocking people I know are on the prudish side.
DeleteConsent is the foundation of what we do. As pointed out previously in many places DD is assault. Consent to me makes it at least morally right. That same consent should apply to others. Whether they are shocked or say ho hum.
DeleteYes if my wife or part of a lesbian couple shows her nighty in the office that is going to far again in so far as consent to be part of such a display.
Others of course say that's fine. That's the beauty of a moral dilemma.
Im a disciplined prude? Perhaps.
Just to be perfectly clear, I do NOT consider DD to be assault, though there are some state laws that might so define it. But, I don't equate the need to get consent to being spanked with needing to get someone's consent before, for example, talking about DD or even conducting a spanking in a dressing room to use your example. I'm with Alan on this one. I'm not sure when people began to believe they have a right to go through life without being offended.
Delete