Spanked for Temper, Irritability, and Attitude (Meeting 521)

“You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by your anger.” - Gautama Buddha

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.

 

Once again, before we get started, I would like to thank the Disciplinary Wives who have recently joined us and to extend an invitation to all others who may be inclined to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We like having you around.

 

I hope you all had a great week.  I’ve spent mine recovering and catching up on things after my recent motorcycle trip.  Those longer trips tend to stay on my mind, as the style of riding we were doing (adventure motorcycles, aka ADVs) almost always involves some hairy on and off-bike moments, and there were long, long segments on this one where your attention had to be focused all the time, with no real breaks.  And, while the riding is fun, it’s also exhausting.  It’s a prescription for bringing out my irritability after several days of hard riding and rough sleeping.

 

 

Therefore, some recent comments here about irritability and temper were well-timed in providing a basis for this week’s discussion.

 

A new commenter, George, recounted a recent bout of snippy, attitude-laden behavior:

 

“I recently had something happen that concerned me enough to wake me in the middle of the night. My wife and I were running an errand at a home store for my sister-in law who cannot get around easily and I simply did not want to be there. Just after we parked and before we went into the store, she turned to me and asked me what I was angry about. I told her I had no idea what she was talking about because I thought I had hidden my inner thoughts pretty well. She came back to me with you always get "that look" when you don't want to be doing something. As we got out of the car I just went quiet and went into the store thinking I had been wronged somehow and did a cold shoulder the whole way through the store. Once we got back out and into the car, she said to me that I embarrassed her she really hates when I'm in that "mood". After a short time, I apologized for acting that way and I didn't mean to upset her. This happens a occasionally especially when I am trying to do something I think is important and she needs my help. Many times, after I snap at her, she will be hurt and things will be very quiet for a day or so until I apologize. I don't apologize immediately because I feel I'm in the right in the moment. Afterward I always find myself apologizing. But, it doesn't feel complete enough.”

 

I replied that I too sometimes cop an attitude when asked to do things that I don’t want to do or that require me to take my attention away from something I would prefer to be doing.  And, his comment about how an apology “doesn’t feel complete enough” really resonated with me.  At the very core of my attraction to DD is a need to be held accountable in a way that leaves the other person feeling like they ensured that I was really sorry, preferably to such an extent that I avoid copping a similar attitude in the future.

 

 

TG concurred, saying:

 

“This kind of unreasonable snappishness is the number one thing that I encourage my wife to punish for. It works. I’ve caught myself sometimes with that mood rising and had the thought of the punishment pull me back down before it even gets started.”

 

TG’s and my comments led George to expand a bit more on how spanking imposes a level of accountability that ends things in a way that feels quite different from merely apologizing, regardless of how sincere the apology might be:

 

“You have both hit the nail on the head! It's ACCOUNTABILITY that I need. Yes it’s okay that I apologize, and I always do. But, even as I am offering the apology, I am thinking, "Well that was easy." I need to be held accountable so this doesn't keep happening. Because each time it does, it pushes us just a little further apart, and that's the thought that woke me at 3AM. Just like TG says, I should have an immediate consequence for my actions. That's what punishment is all about. From an unpleasant consequence comes the discipline to take a breath, and not snap at a perfectly reasonable request.”

 

This discussion happened a day after my motorcycle excursion ended, and it felt connected. During last year’s trip, I was in a surly mood for much of it, but I had the excuse that I’d injured myself on the first day and was in a lot of pain throughout.  On this trip, my attitude was a lot better until the final day.  I was pretty much out of gas (metaphorically) at that point. There was a long but really pretty section that lasted a couple of hours.  Then, near the very end of the trip, the route planners threw in a very nasty section that, after a couple of hard falls, spoiled what had been feeling like a great way to end the trip.

 

I didn’t direct my anger at the person I was riding with, but I made it clear what I thought of the route planners and, generally, threw a short little temper tantrum before starting up that section, then really threw a fit after going down and incurring some (minor) injuries to myself and the bike.

 

Almost immediately after we got past that section, I started feeling embarrassed and pissed at myself for the way I vented my frustration.  Like I said, I don’t think I directed any of it at my riding companion, but I certainly directed it near him, and it all felt pretty juvenile.  I went from feeling angry at the group that constructs these routes, to anger at myself for expressing that anger in the way I did.

After the fact, it led to some interesting thoughts about what it would be like to have an empowered traveling companion who might have dropped my pants then and there.

 

Over the 20+ years of our DD, Anne has never focused on spanking for things like a bad attitude or temper, even when directed at her.  Although there may have been others, the only instance I can really think of happened last year, when I got testy over an event she planned with a friend.  The details aren’t important, but it led to an exchange the next day that, at the time, felt like a huge move forward in her taking control of our communications.  She calmly led me through a series of pointed, cross-examination style questions confirming that I had blown up at her; without any real warning; and, in a situation in which she couldn’t read my mind and had no reason to know how I felt about things.  In prosecutor style, she led me to the inevitable admission that, yes, my temper tantrum—whether justified or not—was not an acceptable means of communicating; and, yes, it had been unfair to direct it at her; and, yes, I deserved a spanking for it.

 

 

Although I accept at face value TG’s statement that being spanked for snippiness and temper works, the issue I would foresee in my case is that when my temper hits, it hits fast.  I’m not a “slow burn” kind of guy, and I’m not confident that I could feel it coming on in time to prevent it, as TG describes.

 

 

Yet, I don’t know for sure that the prospect of a hard spanking might not, in fact, give me just enough pause to cut off a bad reaction before it happens. When Anne was stepping things up substantially, I definitely did start watching my actions more closely, including my communications which can tend to snark and sarcasm.

 

Also, while I do think some personality attributes—like how prone we are to temper flares—are at least somewhat hardwired, that doesn’t mean we don’t have some ability to change some of those traits with real effort.  I recently read a book called “Me, But Better", in which the author/journalist engaged in an experiment to try to change her scores on the “Big 5” personality components (openness to new experiences, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism). 

 

She was somewhat surprised at the extent to which she was able to change some negative behaviors tied to her personality traits and, in the process, change her scores on the relevant personality tests. Of the “Big 5” traits, things like temper flares or, in George’s case, snapping at a reasonable request, probably would fall under “agreeableness”, and the author found  that one was, in fact, fairly malleable with diligent effort.

 

So, while it would be challenging, I think it’s at least possible that Anne could fix some of my temper and moodiness with consistent effort.  For things like my flare on this trip, it would require some self-reporting on my part, but I do feel fairly motivated to make some changes in that area, and our new weekly check-in process provides a venue for reporting and discussion.

 

Why hasn’t Anne focused more on temper and attitude issues?  I’m not totally sure, but probably because they don’t happen all that frequently and seldom in her presence. But, I probably do express irritability enough that, if she were truly focused on observing and then dealing with it, plenty of opportunities to address it would arise.

I think it also may be that she has not quite made the mental leap to consistently seeing herself not just as wife who spanks for certain agreed-upon offenses but also as a maternal figure who can and should spank in order to correct things like temper and irritability, which when expressed are basically a form of bad manners that mothers historically would have no problem correcting, including bad manners and poor behavior that don't happen in front of her but come to her attention. 

 

 As George suggests, irritability and temper can have a pernicious impact on a relationship.  And, expressing temper to people like my riding buddy can, even if not directed toward them, result in a loss of respect or embarrassment.

 

How about you?  Do you get punished for temper, irritability, or bad attitude?  What situations are most likely to trigger the problem?  How promptly and how diligently is it addressed?  Does your wife correct you for it only if it’s something she witnesses?  How successful has it been in getting you to think and back down before a temper tantrum occurs or you vent your irritability or bad attitude?

One Incident, Multiple Spankings (Meeting 520)

“A failure establishes only this, that our determination to succeed was not strong enough.” - Christian Nestell Bovee

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.

 

Once again, before we get started, I would like to thank the Disciplinary Wives who have recently joined us and to extend an invitation to all others who may be inclined to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We like having you around.

 

I hope you all had a good week.  Mine was every bit the adventure I had planned.  Every muscle in my body aches, and I have PTSD just thinking about sitting my ass on a motorcycle seat, but this too shall pass.  And, this was the first longer trip I've done since one last June, which resulted in a significant injury.  This time, both body and bike got through it mostly in one piece.

 

Before we get started with a new topic, I wanted to highlight one from the last post, which addressed the timing of any scolding/lecture.  Here is the full comment, from an anonymous poster (which we know I discourage -- please use some name or initials to identify yourself):

"My wife employs a two-stage spanking process that has proven effective for us. The first stage is a hard, focused spanking designed to break down my ego and bring me to a state of contrition and humility. This initial phase isn’t about the specific rule I broke but rather about reminding me of my place in our relationship and her authority. It’s intense and leaves me emotionally and physically vulnerable, which sets the stage for what comes next.

After this first spanking, she has me kneel in front of her for a lecture. At this point, I’m in a receptive frame of mind—humbled and open to truly hearing her. She uses this time to clearly explain why the behavior was unacceptable, how it affected her or our relationship, and what she expects moving forward. The kneeling reinforces the power dynamic and keeps me focused on her words. This lecture isn’t rushed; she takes her time to ensure the message sinks in.

Once the lecture is complete, the spanking resumes for the second stage. This part is the actual punishment for the specific rule I broke. It feels different from the first half—more purposeful, as it’s directly tied to the behavior we just discussed. The combination of the initial humbling, the lecture, and the concluding punishment creates a powerful experience that leaves me both corrected and motivated to do better.

This sequence works for us because the first spanking clears away any defensiveness or ego, allowing me to absorb her lecture fully. The second spanking then reinforces the lesson, tying the physical discipline to the specific infraction. It’s a process that feels both maternal and authoritative, and it helps me internalize the correction in a way that a single spanking or a pre-spanking lecture alone wouldn’t."

Many of us have experienced the way a spanking breaks down the ego and allows us to see things from the wife's perspective.  The corollary to that is that we may go into a spanking not seeing her perspective and with our ego in full defense mode, which means a pre-spanking lecture may be resisted, albeit silently. Anonymous' two stage process would seem to solve that issue, with the first spanking designed to break or soften the ego defenses, with the second constituting the real punishment, delivered after we are fully open to her point of view. Seems pretty brilliant to me.

This week's topic relates to a spanking I received a few weeks ago for something that has been an ongoing issue.  We went out to dinner with in-laws.  My alcohol consumption at dinner was reasonable.  But, after I got home, I decided to have a few nightcaps.  Objectively, it wasn’t a huge amount.  In total it was 6 drinks, and three of those were light beer.

 

But, when I drink after a social event, I almost always feel tired and cranky the next day, because it screws up my sleep. And, it’s hard to call it “social drinking” when I’m sitting alone in my home office, watching a movie or listening to music.  I also didn't fully own up to the nightcaps when she confronted me about them.  I admitted to it pretty quickly under questioning, but not at first.

Further, I had been having a good couple of weeks, making a lot of progress in getting my health and fitness back on a better trajectory.

 

So, it’s something we both feel should be dealt with; I wasn’t surprised when she did deal with it. I mostly wanted her to.  During the spanking, she said my behavior was "disappointing", and that's how I felt about it myself.

This all happened during the week that, here on the blog, we were discussing a “zero tolerance” approach to DD.  So, this comment from Jackson proved timely:

 

“Well this is an appropriate topic for my house this week. I am sitting on a very sore bottom after receiving a prolonged session this morning. I had a great week right up until Saturday night when I got argumentative with Lauren over a chair placement in the living room while watching the Kentucky Derby with my son and Lauren.

 

It gets much worse…We were having mint juleps (Kentucky Derby) and I decided to make mine extra strong and also took a few sips out of the bottle. I also treated myself to a couple of beers earlier… so already I’m a little over my 3 limit. I didn’t go further, but later after dinner and my son and his wife had left, Lauren asked me if I had more than just the mint julep, and I don’t know why but I lied.

 

Dishonesty undermines an FLR/DD relationship in our view and is very serious business. I knew when I lied that I would come clean because I just can’t lie to her. When I did…. she was livid but couldn’t take me upstairs because she had been drinking too, and we have a hard and fast rule about no spanking if she has been drinking (safety first).

 

Well, this morning I got a long drawn-out scolding and spanking with six different brutal instruments. She broke the bath brush she was hitting so hard. She also tightened the reins up by stating that from now on any dishonesty would be met with a 4-day spanking. Now the 4-day spankings is given for dishnesty, drinking more than allowed (with accompanying poor behavior.) and name calling.

 

It’s a shame I did this too because I had a good week until Saturday night. I had only violated the 3-drink limit one day and had zero behavioral issues (no other rules broken).

 

I think from now on the punishments will be as bad as what she did this morning. She is very comfortable in her role now.

 

I asked Jackson for more details about their 4-Day rule. He responded:

 

The 4 day is something we came up with in our dynamic to address particularly egregious behavior (in her eyes). Of course, she has the power to change the rules at any time. Right now a 4 day is called for when I drink more than allowed AND that drinking is coupled with breaking other rules such as being sloppy, argumentative or interrupting.

 

The 4-Day is particularly severe because She is usually angry. Discipline is always a Real Punishment session designed to break me and push me down into complete and total submisssion to Her.

 

One thing I’ve noticed (I have received only 2) is that unlike a regular single day spanking there is no feeling of relief after. The guilt stays. The anger lingers for Her. The finality is not there until that 4th spanking. Also, not to worry if you cannot manage to do 4 consecutive days. On both of ours I was traveling mid-week, so we did Sunday and Monday and then Friday and Saturday. This was particularly awful since we still did our weekly check in on Sunday and She didn’t let me off the hook or go lightly on Sunday….Yes…be careful before you ask, and there is no going back. AND She might decide to add to the list of infractions that require a 4-day as Lauren has. I currently get a 4 day for name calling (I have not done this in 2 years since we started FLR/DD), drinking more than allowed with other rules broken and now dishonesty. I don’t think I’ll ever lie again. It really pisses her off.

 

I asked him to expand on whether the pain increased substantially over the four days. He explained:

 

“Dan…The pain factor for me is progressively worse but only slightly until the 4th day…by day 4 it seems like every swat is pretty excruciating until the numbness sets in and there I just get quiet, lay there and take it…it still hurts but the numbness has set in and so have the endorphins.”

 

I questioned Jackson at such length because (a) after failing yet again on my “no nightcaps after socializing” thing, I was thinking about how it might be treated more seriously in order to give me a bigger incentive to change; and (b) Anne and I have never done more than two days in a row for the same offense, and that has happened only a very small handful of times.

 

 

This wasn’t the first time that multiple spankings covering several days had come up on the blog, but it hasn’t been that often. I did find this one from DWC Fred:

 

“Ann has only spanked me for “big” things three times in recent years. Each resulted in multiple spankings spanning several days.

 

Once it was for being upset with her and expressing myself and carrying on badly. A couple of days later I apologized, and we spoke about it. I was in tears because of how I had spoken to her and made her feel.

 

After our discussion, she sentenced me to a spanking every day, for four days. They were horrible. From day two on, I was crying as I pulled down my pants and had difficulty calling Ann to tell her I was ready.

 

Four days in a row is a whole new ballgame, both from an emotional perspective and the pain perspective. Anticipating the increased pain and the additional embarrassment of crying from the time I pulled down my underwear and getting out of control by the time Ann was done spanking made days two, three, and four successively worse.

 

I’ve never repeated any of those offenses.”

 

I still recall the first time I read it, the phrase “I was crying as I pulled down my pants and had difficulty calling Ann to tell her I was ready” hit me especially hard.

 

As I said, spankings across several days for a single offense haven’t come up that often. I also couldn’t find many spanking drawings/captioned photos alluding to them.

 

What was much more common were multiple spankings on the same day or across multiple days as an especially severe punishment for doing the same bad act multiple times.  One of the first times I recall encountering those scenarios was also, as I learned later, by DWC Fred and it was posted on the DWC in the form of the “How I am Spanked” story in the Real People section.  It included these sections describing how severe such a set of spankings can be and how they hit emotionally:

 

My wife and I have been married for 27 years.  When I’m pulling down my underwear to prepare for a shower, I don’t feel anything.  When we’re being amorous, I’m aroused.  When I’m pushing down those briefs before a spanking, I am again 10 years old, knowing that as soon as they are down and my bottom is bare that I am seconds from my bottom being on fire.  Then I bend over.

 

Part of the spanking is yielding control.  When I bend over, with my legs spread over the corner of our bed, with pillows under my middle, my bottom crack opens up and the most intimate places on my body are on display.  I am beginning to be humbled.

 

When the spanking starts there is no warm up.  There is no attempt to get me used to it or make it easier to give a longer spanking.  This is punishment, meant to hurt, meant to leave marks, and meant to leave me crying and sobbing.

 

My last spanking, on Wednesday, was intended to be very severe, because it was something for which I have been badly spanked several times.  She decided that I would get 100 with our frat paddle, 200 with our wooden spoon, 300 with our small paddle with holes, and 400 with our bath brush.  These were not done all together.

 

He goes on to describe getting four separate spankings across the course of the day.  And, his spankings were spread out with three to four hours in between, which probably left plenty of time for the numbness to go away.

 

 

I’ve noticed that some of the websites/blogs that have ripped off the DWC website omit this story, probably because it depicts something of such severity.

 

Yet, it does seem to me there is a place for spankings like Jackson and DWC Fred describe, either for particularly bad behavior or for a series of incidents involving the same behavior, which the wife has tried to correct with single spankings but to no avail.

 

 

Having never experienced either scenario, I’m not sure what would be worse – multiple spankings on the same day, or multiple spankings spread out over three or four days.

 

I have been spanked two days in a row and, honestly, I was surprised when the second didn’t hurt exponentially more than the first.  But, I don’t recall whether the pain lasted much longer than from a single spanking. I suspect it did, but the last time was a few years ago, and I don't remember the details.

 

As I was writing this, it occurred to me that two spankings in one day were not uncommon all that long ago, at least in one particular context: getting spanked at school and getting a second one, just as hard or harder, at home that night.  

 

Although I didn’t personally experience it, I do recall that being the rule in many households when I was growing up. The school was, in fact, happy to facilitate it by sending a note home informing the parents of the spanking at school, which had to be signed and returned.

That would be hard to replicate as an adult, though I did find this captioned photo that suggested something like it, though you’ll all need to imagine the details underlying it:

 

 

I also was interested in Jackson’s observation that when a 4-day spanking was in play, there was no closure until after the last day.  I don’t know whether that would happen for my wife.  She doesn’t tend to stay angry for very long, and the fact is she’s generally not really angry about things like having too many drinks at night.  It’s more like mild disappointment, or just a business-like, practical belief that there needs to be a consequence for that kind of non-social drinking. 

 

As for any lack of closure I would experience, it seems like that would be kind of the point. The whole reason for dragging it out over a number of days would be to keep it front of mind longer and drive it deeper into the psyche so the memory of it would be more likely to nip future incidents in the bud.

 

How many of you have experienced multiple spankings for the same incident, whether in one day or over the course of multiple days? Did you find each spanking after the first harder and harder to take? Was your emotional reaction similar to what Fred describes, with an increasing sense of dread after day 1 both, in anticipation of the pain and also perhaps knowing that you might cry or embarrass yourself more?  Did one or more of the spankings, in fact, result in tears when you usually don't cry, or perhaps real sobbing instead of only a few tears? Did the message stay with you longer?

 

For the wives (or the husbands answering for them), what's her attitude during a multi-day spanking process? Is it as Jackson said - that she stays angry or annoyed until the end?  O does she, in sympathy, end up taking it easier on him at some point? Does it feel like a chore, or is there a certain satisfaction, even pleasure, in it? 

 

I'm never sure whether the people who do spanking drawings and captioned photos are predominantly men or women, but it occurred to me as I was choosing items for this post, a prevalent theme is the women not feeling the least bit sorry when delivering such a hard, but well-deserved, punishment. In fact, the subjects are made to seem like they are reveling in it.

 

Although we haven't done it (yet), I strongly suspect Anne would feel zero need to be merciful. It has nothing to do with being evil or sadistic. 

 

Rather, once she's decided something needs to be dealt with strongly, she doesn't seem to have any problem doing exactly that. In fact, I could see her feeling like she's giving me something that I've desperately needed--or at least had coming--for a long time.

For those who haven’t experienced it, is it something you think she should be prepared to do for tenacious bad habits or things she feels especially strongly about?  How do you think she would feel about it?  Have you asked or, like me, are you more than a little reluctant to go there?

 

Have a great week.

No Post This Week

 Happy Saturday to you all.  I'm going to be heading out on a little adventure next week.  There will be periods when I don't have a cell signal or won't be near a computer. And, with so many of you getting messages sent to spam, I won't be able to regularly check for and release imprisoned messages. So, I'm going to forego posting a new topic until a few days after I get back.

Enjoy the spring weather, if it's nice where you are.

Dan.

Scolding After the Spanking - Is Before, After, or During Better for Getting the Message Across (Meeting 519)

“A person’s success in life can usually be measured by the number of uncomfortable conversations he or she is willing to have.” - Tim Ferriss

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.

 

Once again, before we get started, I would like to thank the Disciplinary Wives who have recently joined us and to extend an invitation to all others who may be inclined to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We like having you around.

 

I hope you had a good week.  Mine was pretty uneventful, though I also felt like I got a decent amount accomplished over the course of the week.  It’s hard to attribute it to any one thing, but it may not be coincidental that DD has been on my mind a lot lately.  It comes and goes, but for no particular reason I can identify, I feel like I’ve gotten past a temporary flat spot, where my interest level was low.

 

In any event, this week’s topic relates to a comment left a couple of weeks ago. by a reader going by “DD”.  I actually quoted it in last week’s post, but for another purpose, and since there is a lot of good stuff in it, I’m posting it again in full.

 

“My wife was the one who was very strict out of the gate and she has continued to be strict. I get spanked somewhat less often only because I am better behaved. I would never try to force my wife to enforce a zero tolerance policy but she is that way on her own. It took some adjustment initially and it certainly changed our relationship dynamic to something more FLR and I see her differently than I used to. I have a new/different respect for her and see her as the authority in the relationship. She says she still sees me the same but she does treat me differently in her role. I think because of the effectiveness of the dynamic in the beginning spanking to her is like a hammer and every issue is a nail. It is certainly her go to. Over time its only become more that way and she always finds new behaviors or things to add to what she will spank for. She used to try and talk or scold about things up front then spank after but she shifted to spanking with scolding up front then talking after because she likes that the spanking takes care of any potential ego or defensiveness that might become argumentative. Being argumentative in other context is also a spank-able offense.”

 

Sometimes a reader’s comment sticks in my brain, and when that happens it often suggests a new topic, or at least a new angle on an old topic.

 

This time, something about the lines I bolded above, concerning talking after the spanking struck home.   

 

When it originally got my attention, I equated the reference to "talking" after the spanking with getting scolded or lectured afterward, not simply a post-spanking discussion about the spanking itself. I think that's what DD meant but, in any event, that's how I'm leveraging it for purposes of this week's discussion.

 

Anne and I do talk after spankings.  We often talk a lot.  But, it’s usually in bed and it’s usually me doing a lot of the talking. And, it’s usually not about the particular behavior that got me spanked. Moreover, nothing about it feels like a continued scolding or lecture.

 

Rather, what I was focusing on in DD's comment is the notion that instead of scolding before a spanking—or perhaps in addition to that—the wife might choose to convey her thoughts about his behavior after giving him the well-deserved butt blistering.

 

As DD suggests, the theory for switching up the more typical sequence of lecture and spanking would be that after the spanking the husband’s ego likely is much reduced and, therefore, he is likely to be more open to really hearing what she is trying to convey.

 

Alan referred to it as “back-loaded” scolding, observing:

 

“Yes, a very interesting observation, somewhat counter-intuitive to the normal dynamic, but it is a way of taking care of the ego problem, which must be managed to make DD effective. This is reminiscent in some measure to the effect of preventative spanking. Both prepare a male for the behavior expectations that follow. But, I appreciate and probably need my wife's scolding before paddling. But, if she doesn't get my ego under control, the spanking is a lot less effective even when she scolds. To listen to what she is saying, one does need to become accepting and non-defensive. I imagine what DD is describing would produce that state.

 

There also could be an opportunity for a good dialogue. One, because her anger or irritation will be less because you have already been punished and probably humbled. Two, because you are likely to be less defensive and more objective because you are not facing a looming spanking.

 

A pre-spanking lecture probably is more typical than one where the heart of the discussion is reserved for after the spanking.  And, for some those can reduce the ego and leave you feeling like that much younger man about to get spanked by a stern authority figure.  

 

However, for me a lengthy pre-spanking lecture doesn’t seem to work that well.  I tend to get kind of bored with it. Or, I know exactly why I am being spanked and I’m more than ready to get it over with.

 

 

Although it doesn’t happen much this way for us, I think for me a scolding right before the spanking would be something more like this meme, i.e. extremely short and direct.

 

 

Or perhaps something more like this by RedRump, after she's told me earlier in the day that I'm getting a spanking, and after I've had a chance to stew over it a bit, but while she is still feeling most of her original anger or annoyance.

In our relationship, I think to the extent there is a value to a pre-spanking lecture it’s more about her getting something off her chest.

 

For me, when a lecture has worked, it’s tended to be well before the spanking, and it’s been more like a cross-examination, with her leading me calmly through exactly what I did, with a series of “yes/no” questions that take me through what I did bit by bit, leading to the inevitable conclusion; a short declaration from her that I’m getting a spanking later that day. 

 

That sequence allows her to get it off her chest, makes me essentially sign on fully to my own punishment, and leaves me a few hours to think about what is coming.

 

However, while I’m sure it is far less typical, I can see potential benefit in leaving a lot of her side of the discussion to after the spanking.  It’s not often that there is any disagreement about whether I deserve a spanking, but it does happen. And, even when I agree in my head that I deserve one, I’m not always in a fully humbled state that leaves me feeling more vulnerable and open to really hearing her message loud and clear.

 

As several of us have talked about before, a spanking has this very odd way of changing your attitude about why you are being punished.  As Al said:

 

“Nothing like a strong dose of the paddle to straighten out an attitude. But, in all seriousness, there's been plenty of times when I submitted to a spanking begrudgingly, pissed off about something, and convinced that I was right and she was wrong (spanking or not) - only to emerge from the spanking with a much different point of view. Interesting how that works.”

 

Because my attitude can change so profoundly from immediately before the spanking to immediately after, it does seem like reversing out typical ordering of the scolding first and the spanking second might help me respond more openly and constructively, especially given that during the pre-spanking lecture my contributions usually are relegated to a few “Yes, Ma’am” responses to her lecturing.

 

I’m not sure whether it would work for her, but when lecturing before a spanking, she sometimes seems pretty casual about the whole thing. On the other hand, she sometimes sounds more stern and strict immediately after the spanking, like she’s still really feeling the power and authority embodied in just having let me up after going over her knee.

 

A post-spanking discussion also might, in a subtle way, reinforce her place in the hierarchy. Coincidentally, I found this captioned spanking meme in my Tumblr feed shortly after I started thinking about a topic on post-spanking lectures. Alan has talked in the past about how he is allowed to plead his case, but generally only after he's already been spanked.  Although perhaps that feels less "fair", it also seems like a very effective sequence for emphasizing her discretion to spank for any reason.

 

 

To me, it may reflect another situation in which a post-spanking lecture might work well, i.e. on those rare occasions when we are not on the same page about whether a spanking has been earned.  It really has not happened often, but there were a few times last year, when she was becoming more strict and more prone to follow her own views about certain things, that she spanked me for things like being too aggressive or domineering in conversations, that I felt like there really were big differences in how we saw the situation, which the spanking did not resolve.  I think the lack of resolution was related to my ego defenses being too strong for that “different point of view” that Al talked about to emerge.  It is possible that moving right to the spanking with little discussion, followed by heart-to-heart later might have given her the same or better opportunity to give me her perspective while I was more open to hearing it, even if the outcome that her view wins remained exactly the same.

 

When done well, scolding can have a power that exceeds—or at least augments—a spanking, particularly if the man is prone to want more verbal strictness.

 

And, it does seem like most of us want scoldings to be more frequent and perhaps harsher.  I once polled the group (back when Blogger had a polling widget) about what they wanted more of in their DD relationships, and “verbal strictness” was the only option that 100% of the respondents agreed with. 

 

For me, in addition to the benefits of having one’s ego humbled and then having an open conversation about it, there’s something that feels very maternal about augmenting a hard spanking with a discussion about what got me there. Although I try to go into each spanking open to the lesson she is trying to give, at the end of one I am much more compliant and in a headspace that feels much more like I’ve been chastised by someone with real authority over me. It feels much more like a school or parental spanking after it is over.

 

Finally, I suspect—though I do not know for sure—that scolding and lecturing after a spanking might be even more empowering for Anne. As I alluded to above, her expressiveness, and the sternness with which she expresses herself, seems to increase over the course of a spanking. When she dismisses me at the end of it, she seems to be really feeling her power.  It seems like that might be the best time for her to reiterate why the spanking happened and what her expectations are for better behavior in the future.

 

We’ve talked about scolding a few times before, but I don’t think we’ve talked very much about the issue of timing.  For those of you for whom scolding/lecturing is part of the dynamic, is it most effective before, during or after the spanking?  Is there a certain sequence that seems to break down your ego, or empower the wife, most effectively?

 

I hope you all have a great week.

Strictness and Consistency in Domestic Discipline and FLR Relationships - How Much Strictness Do You Really Want, and What are the Real Impediments? (Meeting 518)

Stop setting goals. Goals are pure fantasy unless you have a specific plan to achieve them." - Stephen Covey

Hello all. Welcome back to The Disciplinary Couple’s Club.  Our weekly on-line gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, a Domestic Discipline relationship.

 

Once again, before we get started, I would like to thank the Disciplinary Wives who have recently joined us and to extend an invitation to all others who may be inclined to move from “lurker” to “commenter” status. We like having you around.

 

I hope you all had a good week. Mine was pretty tame.  Which I guess was good.  Lots of setting tinkering with a new motorcycle for an upcoming adventure trip.

 

Thank you to all who participated in our discussion last week, despite the fact that it took a little political detour.

 

“Zero tolerance” seems like a simple concept in theory, but there plainly are a lot of nuances.  Although maybe it’s just another way of articulating the goal of being consistent, it seems to me to also incorporate the notion of a special level of strictness.

 

Although our wives sometimes seem to struggle with implementing anything approaching “zero tolerance” in day-to-day practice, our discussion did give some examples of reasons to try.  For example, Norton discussed how consistent strictness has helped him with at least two fairly serious issues:

 

“This should prove to be a popular topic, as many of us have expressed a desire for more consistent strictness and accountability. Often it seems like life just gets in the way. Also, she might not always be in the mood. A few years ago she helped me reduce my drinking with very consistent hard spankings when I went over my limit. I did self report, and would always send her a text as soon as I realized it happened. The other major issue has been what she would consider reckless driving. We have different standards for what that is, but it basically means that if she is in the car and I make her nervous, I will be spanked. That definitely has changed my driving habits.

 

Similarly, Mike W.’s wife is getting results with “helping” him keep his temper under control, which is something I struggle with and is very hard to control because it comes on suddenly:

 

“Zero tolerance” is often a struggle for my wife Sue to achieve - either because she is tired, too busy with life in general, or in pain with a recurring shoulder injury . However we both agree that zero tolerance is important if the goal is behaviour change. There is indeed a risk that it can lead to punishing every little thing. We have gotten around that by specifying a small number of highest priority problems for immediate action.

 

A good example is my tendency to lose control when I am upset and have an angry outburst. She will “start small” and spank at the very first sign of me raising my voice. And quite severely. The idea is that small problems can be prevented from developing into major blowups, often in mid-sentence.

Mike W.

 

 

Norton and Mike W.’s experiences confirm the effectiveness of quick and certain action.  Yet, both of them refer to the challenge of maintaining consistency, attributing it to “real life” getting in the way. 

 

ZM, however, offers a competing view about whether the real impediment to consistency and strictness is just the distractions of real life:

 

I think this "life getting in the way" thing often has nothing to do with the busyness of life, though of course that is very much a thing as well. Rather, I think the key issue is that most of our wives - even those that really get off on the exercise of power - really can't get their heads around the idea that we really want and need them to be strict. As a result, even as they hear what we are saying, and even if they really like spanking us and showing their power, they are always afraid of overdoing it, because they just can't imagine wanting what we want. And while this is bad enough by itself, it is even further complicated by us visibly not wanting it at the time and needing it to feel non-consensual (of course actually consensually non-consensual).

 

I think down deep she is a bit afraid of unleashing her "inner bitch" for fear of what she might discover about herself or might become. For me, I love the thought of her exercising significant control if even just for limited things, but at the same time, I fear losing freedom and am at least in some way fearful that I could resent her, even if it is my own action that brings the discipline and even if it is me who want her to be super strict.

 

Having said all that, there is a huge part of me that deep down really wishes that she would put her foot down and do whatever it takes with absolutely zero tolerance on certain agreed issues, and in the process, squash any resistance I might put up.

 

A good friend, Rhiannon, who I met through our respective blogging about DD and FLR issues, talked about the challenges involved in being a consistently assertive wife in a DDFLR relationship:

 

I am a person who likes the tangible and concrete. I love specific examples and particular scenarios to kind of find a baseline and then be able to apply it.  I have found that is far less possible in a FLR than I first thought.  I had hoped that once I decided to lead, and he to follow, that it would kind of just work like that.  I would give commands and set expectations, and he would follow them and provide his active participation as requested.  And we would have an established system related to consequences that would set our life on a clear and regulated path. 

 

So much for that pipe dream.  In some ways, I find that trying to fit it into a neat package just does not work.  The overarching goals or intent is helpful as a guide, but cannot really answer the question of what the particular point is or how to deal in the day to day.   I worry constantly that I am not providing enough consistency, accountability or consequence in the days or weeks that get clogged up with work or other life demands, and then feel as if I am constantly trying to reinvent what we do to make it have a point and fit within a construct of what this should be.  It can be paralyzing and lead to a whole bunch of WTF are we doing,

 

I struggle most with figuring out what I really want and not constantly being on top of this--which is maybe something that happens after time, but in its infancy, a FLR needs more parameters around it. We tend to get into a good rhythm, with my husband taking over the household running aspects, somewhat regular discipline and accountability and me leading rather than asking. But that decently well-run machine has flaws and I do not always say what I want or set the clearest of expectations.  It is my own fault and a plan I need to recommit to in order to keep him feeling safe in his submission.

 

I really do need to address the day to day and not just kind of rely on the general construct to get us through.

 

The challenges and self-doubt involved in exercising leadership obviously are daunting.  One commenter, DD, paints a compelling picture, however, of what happens when a wife does become more strict:

 

“My wife was the one who was very strict out of the gate and she has continued to be strict. I get spanked somewhat less often only because I am better behaved. I would never try to force my wife to enforce a zero tolerance policy but she is that way on her own. It took some adjustment initially and it certainly changed our relationship dynamic to something more FLR and I see her differently than I used to. I have a new/different respect for her and see her as the authority in the relationship. She says she still sees me the same but she does treat me differently in her role. I think because of the effectiveness of the dynamic in the beginning spanking to her is like a hammer and every issue is a nail. It is certainly her go to. Over time its only become more that way and she always finds new behaviors or things to add to what she will spank for. she used to try and talk or scold about things up front then spank after but she shifted to spanking with scolding up front then talking after because she likes that the spanking takes care of any potential ego or defensiveness that might become argumentative. being argumentative in other context is also a spank-able offense.”

 

Lack of consistency and the unfulfilled desire for more strictness top the list of changes we would like to see our wives implement.  If you fall into that camp, what do you attribute the lack of consistency or failure to become as strict as you’d like to?

 

Are Norton and Mike W. right that it’s mostly about the distractions of “real life”? 

 

Or, is it, as ZM believes, more about concerns that taking control will be seen as “bitchy” or “too much”?

 

 

As ZM alludes to, one of the big ironies in real world DD and FLR relationships is that wives do have concerns about how taking command and being more strict would really be perceived, yet many of us are insistent that we really do want them to be far more strict with us.

 

Yet, even when the husband and wife agree that increasing strictness would be a good thing, it often doesn’t happen.  I think the first two sentences from Rhiannon’s blog post, and the Stephen Covey quote at the top, identify the heart of the problem, namely that there is a big gap between having a goal and having a plan. 

 

In your DD relationship, is increased strictness something the husband wants?  Does the wife share that goal?  How successful have the two of you been in making such a goal a reality?  If there is a big gap between the reality and the goal, what do you see as the source of the problem – “real life” getting in the way, or something deeper like concerns about whether he really wants her to be more strict or how being more controlling might be perceived by him or others?

 

 

For those who have succeeded in moving toward a more strict, controlling DD and/or FLR dynamic, how did that come about?  Was the wife just naturally dominant from the beginning, or was there a learning or “fake it ‘til you make it” process involved?  Are there “concrete steps” of the sort Rhiannon wants that you implemented and would recommend?  New commenter W. referenced new structures and rules his wife is implementing. Hopefully he and others will chime in with descriptions of what they and their wives have done to get to the desired level of strictness and control.

 

Have a great week.