Hi all. I hope you had a great week. Mine was maybe slightly better than the last three, though it is slow-going.
I’m going to do something a little different this week. For some reason, I’ve recently gotten a lot of inquiries about the DWC manuals/pamphlets that I quote here from time to time. For those who don’t know, the original DWC website had a Store function, where people could buy DWC-branded spanking implement and download videos and “how to” manuals/pamphlets on various topics. Unfortunately, after the DWC’s original domain name registration lapsed and they had to start up again at a new web address, the Store functionality didn’t return.
Over the years, I’ve gathered .pdf versions of most of the pamphlets from various sources. But, most of them had copy protection, which disabled cut and paste functions, thereby preventing simply copying the content into a form I could post.
A few years ago, Aunt Kay’s husband, “Jerry”, sent me a “care package” with a bunch of computer disks (including old 3.5” hard disks that I had to buy an external drive to open – the things are ancient), CDs and DVDs. Unfortunately, none of them had soft copies of the DWC pamphlets.
However, a couple of years ago, Jerry sent me a Word document entitled, “The Disciplinary Wives Club: Behind the Scenes”. It was an early-stage draft, and based on the introduction it was intended to be (a) a history of the DWC; and (b) a compilation of much of the DWC content. The purpose of the latter seemed to be to preserve the website content so it could be made available in book or hardcopy form, in reaction to the previous incident of someone ripping off their website. Unfortunately, as I said, it was an early-stage draft, and there wasn’t much new content at that stage.
But, I took a look at it last week, and it included three of the DWC pamphlets in Word format, including the “Woman’s Handbook” (aimed at female readers), the “Companion Guide” (aimed at male readers), and a “How to Scold During Discipline” (a “how to manual” on scolding).
So, I cut and pasted those guides into blog posts, after creating a new blog site, which you can find at https://dwc-manuals.blogspot.com/. I’ve also put a page link to that blog at the top of this blog.
Further, I had several electronic copies of a fourth manual, “Please Discipline Me: Persuading Your Partner”. One of them was a black and white version that was missing one intro section. It looks like something someone may have scanned from a hardcopy. BUT, it did allow cut and pasting, but the formatting was mostly lost. I’ve gone through and tried to clean up formatting, which took forever, but it’s still messy and visually unsightly. But, the content is there.
I asked permission from Jerry to do this, and he was fine with it. Donn and I had exchanged some comments regarding IP rights. I’ve always been a little leery about distributing these, as it’s not clear whether anyone other than Kay and Jerry contributed to them, but the reality is, I don’t have any reason to think anyone else did contribute to them, and unlike when the DWC was a live website, no one is trying to sell them, so by posting them here I am not depriving anyone with rights in them to any commercial opportunities. (I do, fyi, have copies of at least some of DWC videos. Those I will not make available, because I have no idea who most of the people featured in them are, and they might have objections to someone distributing videos of them engaging in those sorts of activities.)
So, enjoy. I haven’t enabled comments on the blog where these are hosted, so please direct any comments to this post.
Thank so much!
ReplyDelete-3pops
No problem.
DeleteDan: This is really excellent that you are sharing these with everyone who reads your blog. I appreciate being able to read them again, and I am certain many other people will also. I will post a link to them on my blog, and devote the post next week to them.
ReplyDeletebototms up
red
Thanks, Red. It's too bad I didn't have a better version of the "Please Discipline Me" pamphlet to work from. I've always liked that one.
DeleteDan, google seems to be preventing me from opening this. When I pick on the pamphlets link, it takes me to a sensitive content warning, which asks for me to sign in, and when I try to do that, I get a grey border.
ReplyDeleteTry scrolling about halfway down the page until you see the sign in box.
Delete-3pops
What page should I be scrolling down on?
ReplyDeleteThe grey border is an overlay, just scroll down until you see the sign in box. It may be quite far down.
DeleteWhen I click on "Tips and Methods" and Fiction Stories" Google lets me in. When I click on "Real People" or "Pamphlets" the orange sensitive content warning comes up. Then when I try to sign in, it won't allow that, and puts me back in a loop. Very frustrating.
ReplyDeleteSorry, no idea. All those pages are set up in the same way.
DeleteNorton:
DeleteSometimes when you get into one of those repetitive "security loops," it due to one of two reasons (among others):
(1) You are trying to access and pass through the age security check at a non-secure sign-in page. You are at a page with address similar to http://name.domain. com, RATHER THAN HTTPS://name.domain. com.
(2) You have conflict between various security cookies that Google has set. Try clearing ALL of your Google cookies, then logging back into your Google Account, then attempting the age security check.
No guarantees, but these two are the most common problems I encounter.
Dan:
ReplyDeleteI was curious if you also had the "Contracting Guide and Forms" (maybe under a different name). That Contracting Guide would complete Aunt Kay's original three part "DWC Lifestyle Kit."
Even if you only have the Contracting Guide as a *.pdf file, I do have the Adobe PDF tools to bypass copy-protection, or alternatively I can extract whole pages (i.e., contract forms) which you could post as photographs in the appropriate blog; I could transcribe the limited instructions and contracting guide, which could also be posted.
Any thoughts?
Thank you Dan. That is going to be many hours reading all the various material. Cheers GLM.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteIt was interesting re-reading the DWC material, over twenty five years after we discovered the site and started living this lifestyle. I guess on originally reading it, I just accepted it as it was, but now, with the benefit of experience, there were a number of areas that particularly caught my attention, either negatively or positively. I think inherent in Aunt Kay’s thoughts is the implication that any woman can become a DWC wife. I have to disagree with this. Although we’ve been together over twenty five years, we’re both second time around and in my wildest moments I can’t imagine my first wife being capable of adopting this lifestyle. I believe there is a fundamental strength - recognizable if difficult to define - that is essential for a woman to have the potential to be a DWC wife. My now wife has it, my first wife definitely didn’t. Kay talks about the importance of being faithful, but doesn’t define what this means. I guess that most people would just assume this is a sexual reference but I think that really unfaithfulness encompasses any significant act done without your partner’s knowledge, be it sexual, financial or anything else. This does of course cross over into her discussion of honesty, but I would suggest that in a marriage, faithfulness and honesty are pretty much the same thing. One thing I’d forgotten was her emphasis on maternal discipline. As I’ve said here in the past, I have a huge problem with this. I grew up at a time and place where not only was corporal punishment not a thing, but I can’t imagine my mother - or the mothers of any of my friends - being disciplinary. My wife grew up in more of a maternal disciplinary environment, but she agrees with me that there is nothing maternal about our DWC life style and she is as uncomfortable with the concept as I am - and yes, I know there are many here who disagree with me on this. Where I agree completely with Kay is in the effect that punishment has on a marriage. It clears the air, gets rid of my feelings of guilt and her anger, and lets everyone move on without whatever this thing is hanging in the air for hours or days afterwards. In our experience it’s hugely beneficial for the marriage. Her card box was the other thing I wanted to mention; we’ve discussed the whole DD vs FLR thing many times here, but her practice of assigning chores via the card-box feels very FLR to me. I certainly agree with the idea that repeatedly failing to do things should be punishable, but I think it applies to things I have said I will do, regardless of whether I took it upon myself or it was something that B REQUESTED that I do. She doesn’t assign tasks. Appreciate you being able to post this stuff again though. TG
I agree that these materials can hit very differently with a few years in-between reads. I don't remember when I first got copies of them, but it was several years after discovering the DWC. And, I didn't read them again until a couple of years ago.
DeleteI have some of the same reactions as you, though sometimes from an almost opposite perspective. I agree with you that not every woman can become a DWC wife, though I don't attribute it so much to strength or lack thereof; I see it as more about openness to things that are unconventional or transgressive and, in some cases, a gut-level aversion to "hurting" others, and in still others to a real reluctance to take on any sort of leadership role.
For me, the fundamental thing I didn't agree with was more about how quickly a woman could be expected to make the transformation from "vanilla" to DWC. There's a vibe in the materials that it's just a matter of making the decision to do it, then instantly stepping into the role. It may work that way for some, but not many. And, there is a big difference between the physical act of taking up the paddle and using it effectively, which my wife did do amazingly quickly, and really embracing the role itself and making it her own.
On the whole faithfulness thing, there is sometimes this underlying emphasis on that, "moral education", and "wholesomeness" that I personally find really annoying and very 1950s housewife-ish.
On the maternal emphasis, somehow in my many readings of the DWC and a read or two of these manuals, the whole maternal thing went right over my head, until someone pointed out three or so years ago that even appears in the description on the top page of the DWC website. It really is a major focus, and it's approached from both the wife and husband perspective, with the wife equated to the maternal role and the husband expressly identified a taking on a "child" role. That whole dynamic is way more explicit in the pamphlets than in the website materials. Some of it comes a little close to age-play, which I'm not into, though I don't have the problem you do with the maternal archetype as a model for a DD relationship.
To me, the manuals have an undeniably FLR orientation. There's no express reference to "Female Led" or "FLR", and for all I know that term didn't exist at the time the DWC was active. And, the descriptions of the grants of authority are kind of equivocal in that the wife has widespread authority but phrased in terms of "on disciplinary matters". But, I think any fair reading would acknowledge that the "on disciplinary matters" includes determining what is subject to discipline in the first place, which is a hugely broad grant of authority. Though, I think the DWC website materials also have a very FLR-ish vibe as a whole. The first two fiction stories include a wife spanking her husband for leering at another woman's legs, and that woman turns out to be a DWC wife. After giving him his first DWC spanking, his wife says to him: "Oh, and in case you didn't hear my discussion with Glenda on the phone, when we go over there tomorrow evening for you to apologize, if she wishes to spank you too, you had better not object and embarrass me. As a DWC woman, and my friend, if she wants to punish you, she has my blessing.” That grant of authority for the husband to be spanked by other DWC wives, to me, borders on Femdom. So, I think there is an emphasis on the "wife" and "female" leadership element that sometimes escapes the notice of those who are focusing entirely on the "disciplinary" part.
TG:
DeleteYes, I agree with you about Aunt Kay's heavy emphasis on "Maternal Discipline" being somewhat "off-putting." I personally, and I think I can honestly say that my own wife also, finds such dynamic to be somewhat creepy. (This is NOT to question or negate many other members here who feel this maternal perspective is beneficial to their own relationships; many of our earliest interests in CP were associated with women who occupied such maternal or similar roles in our lives. And, I can certainly understand how many wives may find a fundamental source of "rightful authority" by considering themselves in a parental role.)
Previously, I had noted a couple references on the Main DWC Website to this "maternal dynamic." However, until I recently read Aunt Kay's "Wives' Handbook," I did not fully appreciate how much she emphasized this. In particular, this line referring to the husband:
"He has empowered you to assume the maternal role and has agreed to take the child role with respect to discipline."
I never "empowered" or in any way suggest to my wife for her to assume such a role, or wanted to assume the role of "child." (There are 14 separate references to either "mother" or "maternal" in that handbook!)
Similarly, this part of the "Companions' Guide:"
". . . you [husband] wants a maternal, disciplinary relationship . . ."
Nope! Neither before, or now.
I could see many other "dynamics" that could provide similar authority and subservient positions, without (necessary) being role-play: teacher/student; governess/charge; coach/athlete; disciplinarian/delinquent (convict); queen/knight. (My wife finds those last two ["Sultana" {Islamic Queen"} & disciplinarian] to best match her personal feelings and be most empowering -- I agree!)
I'm a late to Aunt Kay and her writings. I'm wondering if she ever described her personal experience - how she became a disciplinary wife, how she made it known to others, etc.
DeleteDonn, it's interesting how different archetypes hit each of us differently. I know others who really resonate toward the queen/knight type, while it is very off-putting to me, and I have no idea why.
DeleteTom, I haven't come across anything where Kay herself described it, but her husband has told me the gist. He had a strong pre-existing interest in spanking. Shortly after they started dating, he invited her to attend a large spanking party with him (one of the large events sponsored by one of the national groups that used to be around), and she agreed. Sometime after that, he was in the process of moving, and a friend asked him to help transport some pot for him. Jerry agreed and told Kay about it. She flipped out and told him he most certainly was not going to do it. He argued and, in the process, earned himself his first "real" disciplinary spanking. Although the DWC became its own thing, I think it was their pre-existing contacts in the larger spanking community that brought others into their little movement, carving out a DD genre among the larger spanko community.
Delete
DeleteDan
I agree, I had not previously appreciated how strongly the FLR themes ran through Kay’s writings until re-reading the material now.
Donn.
You hit the nail on the head, “creepy” is the ideal word for how the maternal approach feels to us - although, as you said, I, of course have no critisism with others seeing it that way. I guess I can appreciate the role-play aspect, I don’t find it creepy although It’s not something that really speaks to me. Each to his own ! We had an interest in the D/s lifestyle that pre-dates our awareness of DD. This has somewhat faded over the years, but even there we were not really into role play. It’s a direction I could go in if my wife wanted to, but she really isn’t that interested in it either. If I’m going to be punished, I don’t need to equate it to something else. TG
Tom, I might add that the CP-DD dynamic appeared to be well established very early in their relationship, certainly before they were married.
DeleteThere's a recollection in Jerry's (Tomy's) old blog about how Aunt Kay thoroughly "OTK switched" his butt as they sat on a outside bench, shortly before (same day) as their formal wedding!
After many attempts with the computer, I was finally able to access the pamphlets from my phone. They really brought me back to when I first discovered the DWC, and like Dan, it hit me like a ton of bricks. TG and I had similar experiences with wives that were never capable or even interested in spanking, let alone the DWC lifestyle. Twenty years later, we split up and I now get to experience how amazing real DD can be. It's interesting to ponder if my then wife had been into it, would I have given her the unlimited "any time for any reason" authority? Probably not, as I just didn't trust her enough. All that has changed, and now I am with a woman who understands my needs and takes good care of me in every way. Dan, great idea making those pamphlets available to us. Agreed that they had a different vibe than the other content available on the site. I would say that we are currently living the lifestyle Aunt Kay described, and it works very well for us. One of the basic ideas she suggested was, always put her first, which is something I really try to do now. DD has made me a more sensitive partner. There are no arguments, I do the majority of the housework and shopping, and do my best to show her how much I appreciate her every day. She has become more confident, and less apt to say yes to things she doesn't really want to do. She has also become an excellent spanker. One thing Aunt Kay used to say was, the harder and more often she spanks, the more he will love you for it. I used to think that was really over the top. Not anymore.
DeleteThanks Dan and Donn for that information.
DeleteI personally am not very freaked out by references to maternal disciple. As we’ve talked about here many times, maternal style is not “my” mom spanking me, but rather how “A” mom might punish a child. And when I am being scolded or spanked, I very much feel like an errant child, even though it is for my actions or attitudes as a middle age man.
Delete“That grant of authority for the husband to be spanked by other DWC wives, to me, borders on Femdom.” - maybe true, however when you consider the distinctly maternal slant in these pamphlets, is it really all that different than when we were kids, where we knew that we might be subject to discipline from aunts, teachers, and sometimes even our friends’ parents if our parents happened to know them well? There is a part of me that craves that sort of openness when everyone knows you are subject to authority, and for the most part knows when anyone got spanked. And of course, in other ways I am glad it isn’t that way…
-ZM
Thanks for sharing these with the group, Dan! Given that Jerry was ok with their free distribution, I'm sure Kay would have been also - especially given the length of time since they were published. I suspect that she would even be pleased that they are still be distributed and read.
ReplyDeleteI believe that I originally had hard copies of all of these - and may still have a couple of them. But, I had acquired digital copies along the way as well from various sources.
I will have to make it a point to go through and re-read them in the upcoming weeks - at least get them on my endless reading queue. --al
Yeah, I've thought a couple of times about trying to post them for download on Amazon, but (a) I'm pretty adamant about not doing anything to profit commercially off of any DWC materials, regardless of Jerry's OK; (b) I asked him at one point whether he'd have any interest in my posting them and giving the profit to him, and he took a pass; and (c) because all I had was copy protected .pdf copies, I couldn't figure out how to do it anyway. It would be nice to get more DWC-related stuff into circulation though, honestly, I really do wonder whether it's a lifestyle whose time has come and gone. Seems like whenever I'm contacted by anyone currently into it, they are in their 70s or early 80s. I have a F/m group set up on Reddit, but the viewership is tiny. I feel like, as an older Gen X-er, I'm one of the *young* ones in our little community, and no one is replacing those who are aging out.
DeleteI do have a vague recollection of "Jerry" posting on the old Usenet spanking group, possibly before the DWC site went up. --a;
ReplyDeleteHis spanking interest, and participation in the spanko lifestyle communities, definitely pre-dated his relationship with Kay. So, I wouldn't be surprised if he were active in tthe early Usenet groups.
DeleteQuick clarification of possible "time-lines:"
DeleteI'm sure that Jerry was actively involved in the spanking lifestyle communities before he met Aunt Kay. (After all, one of their early "dates" was together at a "recreational spanking party."
However, I don't think Jerry was independently posting on Usenet or in the Newsgroups before his relationship with Aunt Kay. At one time, on his blog, Jerry mentioned he and Kay had been together for roughly "four decades" as the time of her passing in 2018. I.E., they were a "couple" back in ~1978, at least ten years before the Usenet and Newsgroups appeared on the web; the "web" wasn't even in existence back in 1978.
(FYI: If you look closely, you can still find some of Aunt Kay's earliest posts on disciplinary spanking in the archives of some of the newsgroups (1990-91). Some of her earliest posts are very similar, and could be the "foundation stock," of what she later wrote on the DWC website and in her manuals.)
CORRECTION: "Tom Truscott and Jim Ellis conceived the idea in 1979, and it was established in 1980.) (Wikipedia). I suppose it's possible that Jerry DID post some on Usenet during a brief period before he met Aunt Kay.
DeleteADDENDUM: The "World Wide Web" was opened to the public in 1993. I believe the original DWC website appeared in 1995. Aunt Kay was certainly technically savvy, and a clear "early adopter!"
(Al here). Just for background to those who may not be familiar, the Net came online to the general public in the early 90's before the Web existed. I recall signing up as soon as an ISP opened in the metro in which I live. The software package included Eudora for email, and client software for Usenet, ftp, telnet, gopher, veronica, etc - no graphical browser interfaces - either Unix based command line interfaces or simple client software. Eudora was, by far, the most sophisticated - although the Usenet client was reasonably user friendly as well.
DeleteThe Usenet was actually available (primarily) on university servers even before the public Internet came online. When the public Net came online, the Usenet plugged into it, and became the place for forums for several years. It still exists, but is now more of a niche network, requiring paying for a subscriptions to a Usenet service provider. Most of the forum categories of interest to the general public later moved to places on the Web (Yahoo groups, for example - now defunct. The private DWC group was on the a Yahoo group).
The Usenet forum groups were called "newsgroups" (Google has many of them archived - from 1981-2023). The first spanking group alt.sex.spanking (with, interestingly, the initials "ass" - participants called the group - fittingly - "assville"). The alt hierarchy was the "lesser" side of the Usenet - not carried by all servers - and anyone could start a group - but the trick was to gain coverage with the servers. Still, a.s.s. was fairly busy in the day. Later, spanking was able to join the "main" Usenet hierarchy with soc.sexuality.spanking (which required a "formal process") - a.s.s continued as well. The alt groups had to contend with more spam than the mainstream groups.
There were many stories posted in these groups - but F/M stories were, by far, in the minority - but there were some. As I've noted earlier, I do vaguely recall post(s) by Jerry about F/M DD in the newsgroups (possibly referencing Kay as well).
I still remember one of my law professors requiring us to get an email account through the university and send him an email, and none of us even knew what it was. It's amazing how much things have changed during our adult lifetimes. I do recall, very soon after discovering adult spanking and DD (somewhere around 2003 - 2004), exploring the alt.sex.apnking newsgroup. One explanation for the DWC's success is probably that it came out so early in the transition from things like Usenet to the web.
Delete(Al here)
ReplyDeleteDan wrote: "I feel like, as an older Gen X-er, I'm one of the *young* ones in our little community, and no one is replacing those who are aging out."
I fear that this is so - based on what I see and what you have reported. Although - I have no idea why. Human nature doesn't really change, and with society being more open than ever, I would think we would have early middle-ager's more frequently appearing in the discussions.
In times past, I have had the idea that this was a more common lifestyle (or fantasy) than perhaps it actually ever has been. I do seem to recall that Alan had some optimistic stats that he posted at one time - but it doesn't seem evident here - arguably the premier F/M DD (DWC) discussion forum on the Net.
I might guess that the discussion is on the Reddit's - but, from Dan's experience, that doesn't seem to be the case. And, because of the subject matter, they are not in the FB groups (among the millions of groups that are there). Not sure where else they might be hiding...
What I have noticed is that couples most often try this lifestyle in early middle-age - around 40ish (which is when my wife and I joined the DWC). Perhaps this is when people have enough life experience that they are comfortable enough in their own skin to try - for the man to take the giant leap of faith and confess his desire to his wife at the risk of looking foolish, weird, and unmasculine - and for the woman to have reached the point where she can understand and perhaps even embrace his request.
Yet most of us here regularly as Dan notes, qualify as senior citizens. Perhaps there are still the 40-somethings getting started - but just don't have the time to be posting in forums... But I can't say I'm certain of that.
Dan wrote: "I feel like, as an older Gen X-er, I'm one of the *young* ones in our little community, and no one is replacing those who are aging out."
DeleteAl wrote: "I fear that this is so - based on what I see and what you have reported. Although - I have no idea why."
There has been a (relatively common?) theory proposed on this forum periodically, which fits with quite a few psychological studies that have been published over the past 25-30 years.
Basically, non-standard sexual (and other, e.g. disciplinary) interests often present themselves in the age range of 5-12yo. The theory being that these persons are frequently exposed to formative events and observations during these periods. For many (most?) of us, it was corporal punishement. (As I recall from some of the psychological studies, better than 95% of adults who have CP or kinky spanking interest came from either a family that practiced spanking, or a "community"/sub-culture where spanking was common.)
I hate to think it, but with the widespread decline in use of corporal punishment in homes, schools and even churches (except for relatively few "niches" in very conservative states) over the past 45-50 years, the vast majority of adults in ages 20-40/45 have NEVER had the kind of direct exposure at the required "formative years."
Yes, whatever underlying neuropsychological "proclivity" that we have, those young people also have, but spanking/CP is simply not there in their early environments to "latch onto." (Although I do wonder, what with the "Fifty Shades of Grey" phenomenon, if many of these people are migrating to more BDSM-lite orientations).
Frankly, I think this is rather sad for us older members; that their will NOT be generations of you people with our orientations.
Hi Donn,
DeleteIt would be interesting to read some of these studies about CP, but I simply haven’t had the time. Of course, the challenge for any sort of broader study - especially when the societal norms as a whole change significantly and across the board like happened with CP and attitudes surrounding it - is that it is hard to have a good control group.For example, most of the people on this blog were spanked at least occasionally as a child, but some were not. And maybe 100-150 million people in the US were either spanked as children or lived in an environment where it was quite common and yet somehow didn’t end up as spankos (perhaps due to lack of the necessary kinky wiring). So yes. 95% of those interested in spanking/CP came from a spanking environment, but so did most everyone at that time, including a vast majority that didn’t end up with this fascination we share. I assume they accounted for this in some way.
And I agree that BDSMish things are super common now, so current 5-12 year olds may end up with a real thing for BDSM. Considering what Dan said that the DWC was kind of spawned out of the BDSM community, who knows what will happen? And even more so when coupled with a general rise in female empowerment in every realm and quite frankly a whole lot of hinting at female supremacy, where women look down on men from their supposed moral high ground. It will be interesting to see where this leads…
-ZM
That theory makes intuitive sense, yet it doesn't really seem to fit the anecdotes told by this group when I've asked about early spanking experiences. It seems like a relatively even split when it comes to whether people were spanked as kids. But, it may be the case that even if they were never spanked themselves, it was prominent enough in the general culture that people were still exposed to an extent that isn't true today. But, I really don't know, and there is some counter-evidence, perhaps the strongest being the popularity of Fifty Shades of Grey, which was a big thing with younger women, there were three movies seen by hundreds of thousands of people . . . It's not like spanking isn't out there in the culture. But, maybe it's not the spanking that's missing but, rather, spanking as corporal punishment as opposed to kink.
DeleteZM, I don't think the DWC was spawned out of the BDSM community. It was more the generalized erotic spanking scene. While most of them seemed to die out with Covid, there was a time when there were some national groups that set up big "conventions" for spankos, and there were local groups as well. I think those were pretty narrowly focused on spanking, and not really BDSM. I have heard, however, that as some similar groups have gotten together post-covid, there is now a much more distinct BDSM vibe, which would fit in with some of your observation, and also mine about how to reconcile the seeming lack of DD interest with the popularity of Fifty Shades. Maybe it's not that spanking kink has gone away with lack of exposure but, rather, that spanking as discipline or punishment has gone away, re-channeled into BDSM and things where the sexual kink element is much more front and center while the punishment angle, if it's there at all, is more of a role play prop.
DeleteAlso, meant to add, I recently did some exploring of a Reddit sub that is devoted to gynarchy. There was some pretty dark shit on there, including several women talking not so much about why women make better leaders/rulers (which is what I'd kind of expect in a gynarchy group), but how much they hate and hold contempt for men. Also, there was a ton of infighting among the group. Plainly, the people who think female leadership would transform society into one big hug fest haven't been around women trying to direct something as simple as a Reddit group.
DeleteThat hatred in some cases and almost universal contempt for men was exactly what I was talking about. And you really don’t have to go to a gynarchy Reddit group. Just open half of about 1/3 of the random posts on
DeleteFacebook about most any social issue and look in the comments.
-ZM
That is one thing that distinguishes the DWC from anything resembling Femdom -- there's no hint of a hatred for men or seeing men as defective in some way. Now, that's not to say there isn't a hint--and maybe more than a hint--that women should take the lead in a "mentoring" sort of way because they exercise better judgment much of the time. And, is there really a good argument against that? Men die in "Darwin award" type deaths at rates vastly exceeding women. We have super-majorities in deaths and hospitalizations from accidents, alcohol, drug abuse, etc. Violent criminal acts are overwhelmingly a male thing. I do think there is way too much fawning about the supposed superiority of women in interpersonal relationships and in their leadership styles at work. Yet, I think it's sort of undeniable based on all sorts of societal metrics that women tend to have some temperament and judgment advantages.
DeleteDan wrote: "I don't think the DWC was spawned out of the BDSM community. It was more the generalized erotic spanking scene."
DeleteI have to, to a degree, disagree.
I think we sometimes fall into a common dichotomy when describing "spanking:" It is either "erotic" or "disciplinary."
What Aunt Kay and Jery participated in {publicly) I think could be much better described as "recreational" spanking. I'm sure many of the participants, upon leaving, took some serious "erotic vibes" home with them, but the "main events" were not overtly erotic.
With those three "archetypes" of spanking (recreational, erotic, disciplinary), I think we can see how any one spanking is not really devoted to only one of those, but evolves through the duration of the spanking through all three. I certainly have had many disciplinary spankings that quickly evolved into erotic experiences; a disciplinary spanking that (during occurrence) had both disciplinary and erotic elements, and a different balance afterwards.
Similarly, I've had numerous disciplinary spankings that, beyond changing behavior, had other "recreation[al]" effects on my mode and perspective in other areas.
I think it was Aunt Kay who wrote: "[A couple] will also discover how a simple discipline session can act as a pressure release valve for both of you." Her description sounds (to me) much more like she is describing a spanking's "recreational" effects than behavior (disciplinary) effects.
Al, it is truly baffling to me why there is not more interest in F/M DD, because, as we know, it has such a wide variety of benefits for both men and women. It does demand an unusual amount of trust and honesty, which may be a deterrent. Getting frequent spankings helps me keep focused, calms me down, and makes me feel extremely grateful. She gets things done her way, has increased confidence, and has a partner sensitive to her needs. It very well works with no side effects, and helps keep the relationship more balanced. It is the best kept secret r.e. marital harmony. There are probably no serious studies on F/M DD, but there should be.
ReplyDelete44 year old here that started this whole thing after 20 years of marriage a few years ago. I agree with you all it is and has been phenomenal for our marriage.
ReplyDeleteYay! Someone in their 40s!
DeleteDan,
DeleteI’m in my late forties as well. I re read the material and I think that it comes across as very FLR to me. I agree that the term probably did not exist. I also think that it is very over the top maternal. I agree that I don’t remember the site being that way. I am strongly attracted to the maternal aspect of our DD, but I feel that some of the stuff was overdone. When my wife punishes me, she does so now just as my Mother did while younger. It’s usually tell me what you did wrong, bend over, scold spank and then I apologize. My Mother and teachers were way more animated. My wife doesn’t like loud or yelling. so she is more controlled. To me it’s much more intimidating. . Donn, I look at my younger cousins with small children and agree, they are way too busy trying to rear kids to participate in DD. I have to imagine for women, it would have to be hard to juggle both. Although, most men today seem to be soft and weaker compared to the way we were raised.
T
T wrote: " I have to imagine for women, it would have to be hard to juggle both."
DeleteFrom my perspective, of younger wives were serious about maintaining DD in their homes, they could certainly achieve a better home/children/family "work balance" with their husbands. They could certainly create more time for themselves, parts of which could be use to more strongly "encourage" their husbands to maintain that balance.
Kind of a self-reinforcing virtuous-circle of benefits for both members of the couple!
(Possibly a future topic for this blog: "How have are wives use DD to achieve a better home/children/family 'work balances' in their homes?"
Donn, that is a good point that the periods in life that seem "too busy" for DD may the periods where it would be the most beneficial.
DeleteWe were pretty young parents when we first started DD. Our kids were single-digit ages at that point. So, it can work during that period of life, though admittedly, consistency was tough.
T, glad to know we have at least one more from "the younger" generation!
DeleteI'm sure it's to no one's surprise that I don't mind the "maternal" references in the DWC pamphlets and website, though at the same time, I don't really like when it's characterized as the male taking on the "child" role. I don't now exactly where the right line is for me, but I'm definitely not into anything that feels infantalizing. In fact, to me, it sort of goes against what the DWC was about, which I see as giving men some incentives to grow up and be better versions of themselves. To me, something that encourages them to adopt a "child role" goes in the wrong direction. It's way too close to the "daddy - little girl role" I see in some of the M/f DD dynamics.
Dan: I very much agree with you about wives intentionally degrading men to children in a DD dynamic. (Frankly, I think us men too frequently do that to ourselves, in acting "irresponsible" and "childish.")
DeleteMy take on much of what Aunt Kay (and other early members DWC) were describing was wives taking on the "maternal" role and authority to best DEAL with husbands who have degraded themselves to that level. What I have read multiple places in the "Real People's" essays, SPECIFICALLY CHOSEN for publication by Aunt Kay: That wive should "raise up" their husbands (when they behave "like children"); raise them up to be "adult men!"
That perspective and dynamic certainly works for me, regardless of having to admit I sometimes act in irresponsible ("childish") ways.
There is another possibility why few people in their 20's, 30's and early 40's do not participate here:
ReplyDeleteThose are the times in people's lives when they are most busy and balancing their careers and children/teenagers!
Thank you so much for publishing these pamphlets. My discovery of the DWC all those years ago started me on a hugely transformative journey spread over years. I had been sexually super interested in spanking since I stumbled across it as a teenager (and before that morbidly fascinated as a child), but in my mind it was more a femdom game. Only much later did I discover that spanking being tied to real infractions was a necessary ingredient for it to mean much, and that the underlying authority was even more powerful than the spankings themselves. The DWC and this forum were both catalysts in this change.
ReplyDeleteI had always been super curious about the pamphlets, but never purchased them since my first wife was so adamantly opposed to spanking. Now I wonder if perhaps I had actually bought them and read them, maybe it could have helped her open to the idea. Had she embraced being a disciplinary wife, she would have been formidable indeed.
Later, I introduced my new wife to DD almost immediately, so if the DWC was still active at that time, I still may not have bought them because I had already told her and also we live overseas.
Anyway, it’s great to finally read them still in progress). I’m thinking maybe they can act as a bit of a DD “reset” and help us to get more serious about DD.
-ZM
I want to share one of my thoughts about the term "maternal" in this context. I think when men are raised, they eventually become adult and have certain masculine and paternal qualities. A woman becomes an adult and becomes feminine with maternal qualities. When they marry, the man brings masculine and paternal elements to the family (formerly provided by their fathers), but the woman brings feminine and maternal qualities to the marriage, (formerly provided by their mothers). Both partners bring in elements that can provide qualities that their partners' opposite sex parent formerly provided, while becoming what their own same sex parent provided. This is why I don't have a problem with the term maternal. I think I bring elements of masculine/paternal qualities for my wife, while she provided feminine /maternal qualities that I need. Apologies for my convoluted wording. E
ReplyDeleteThat was perhaps one of the best and most insightful comments ever. While I know that (especially since the dawn of modern feminism) no wife wants "to be his mom" - nor should she have to be - at the end of the day, normally he is the dad and she is the mom in the family - more so after they have kids, but also even before that to at least some degree. It is not totally by chance that young women tend to find and marry guys who are a lot like their father.
Delete-ZM
I agree with ZM. This is a great analysis.
DeleteThis morning my wife commented on how in many families with children, the parents refer to each other as "mom" and "dad", especially in front of their children. E
DeleteI don't think we did that with our kids, but we do with our dogs. :-)
Delete