Saturday, February 25, 2017

The Forum - Vol. 195 - Confronting Reality

“Nothing quite encourages as does one's first unpunished crime.”- Marquis de Sade

Hello all.  Welcome back to the The Forum.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, a DD or FLR lifestyle.  I hope you all had a great week.

I'll begin by admitting this is one of those weeks I am feeling kind of lazy and uninspired.  I get the feeling that some others feel the same way.  Participation seems to have tapered off a bit, other than the guy I have decided to call OCD Boy who keeps sending me comments about his wife/mother/girlfriend leg locking him during a spanking.   I strongly suspect it is the same OCD Boy who was previously all about his Mother-in-Law, since both seem to have this thing about being made to stand facing a wall.

So, since I am finding a don't have anything in particular I want to say this week, I'll try to recap and extend some themes from the last couple of weeks, and maybe just share a bit more about where my own DD relationship is these days.  When I look at where the conversations have gone, and where I am mentally and emotionally right now, I see a theme emerging around "reality."  Confronting it, managing it, and giving in to it.

A few comments last week touched on the trade-off between making spankings and punishment quick and easy versus making them meaningful and communicative. On one hand were Marissa and Anna who argued that DD takes time and attention if it is to work.  On the other hand you had Darren and me, who did not disagreed but pointed out how insanely busy and distracting ordinary life can be and the extent to which real life can get in the way even for couples who have the best of intentions.  Our concern was that if we make the spanking or punishment event too long or intricate, it is less likely to happen at all.  Marissa and Anna rightly point out, however, that ritual and duration have important roles to play in bringing home and reinforcing the reality of the relationship and of the punishment itself.

On a personal level, I came into this year thinking that, given some changes in our family arrangements, we might have more time to really focus on the DD and FLR aspects of our relationship.  It has not been the sea change that I anticipated, though we are finding a little more time alone for her to deal with issues.  We also did start trying to implement a daily reporting scheme with more immediate "on the spot" spankings, in order to try to uproot some chronic and long-running behavioral problems.  Real-life almost immediately got in the way, however, with me having a series of business trips and my wife having some of her own work distractions.  Setting those challenges aside, however, I am also finding that this idea of daily check-ins that could, if my behavior does not improve, also result in daily spankings, is very intimidating.  Particularly in conjunction with her proclivity for spanking "all out" every time, and with some newer tools that are just incredibly painful.  I am finding that even though I bought those tools with the express intention of ramping up the pain associated with each spanking, and even though I suggested the increased frequency of checking in and spanking to root out the really resistant behavior, I am really struggling to comply fully, with the struggle playing out in how reliably I self-report bad behavior.

Now, I know this is going to bring a hailstorm of criticism raining down along the lines of "If you are not going to submit, then what is the point?"  As I've said before, very easy to say if you are just naturally submissive and compliant, naturally well-behaved for the most part, or if your wife does not spank that hard.  If you happen to have that special combination, however, of stubbornness, willfulness, chronic bad habits or a job that seems to require or encourages certain excesses -- together with a wife who spanks very, very hard -- then something has to give and the temptation is often there to see what you can get away with.  Ideally, what would give is the bad behavior, but I'm finding that it is easier to just kind of slack on the self-reporting and hope that the distractions of our daily life keep her from focusing on my reporting or lack thereof.  It's also just been a particularly hard time to comply with an increasingly strict set of commands, in part because of the work travel I referred to.  It's easier for me to adjust my behavior when I'm just going about my regular job, but traveling very often involves work-related dinners or drinks and long hours, resulting in too much socializing and too little sleep, which makes it more likely that I will skip working out and eat bad food, etc.  One break in the chain of good habits leads to back-sliding in a whole bunch of areas.  That is really what happened this week.

The bottom line is, I know that I deserve one, but I also know I really don't want one and would strongly prefer to get away with something. As I said, I know this is going to lead to the usual chorus of "You just need to submit."  I don't really disagree with it. I know I deserve to be spanked, and I know I just need to take my medicine.

What I am pointing out, however, is that it is sometimes easier said than done.  And while the resistance is undoubtedly counter-productive, in a sense it confirms that we are on the right track.  Because, the resistance and desire to avoid punishment really kick in only once a Domestic Discipline relationship becomes "real," in the sense that it is no longer about some quasi-erotic kink and is really about being punished hard enough, long enough and often enough that he really hopes it will not happen. 

If anything, when I get to this point sometimes where it all does seem too hard to handle, it shows that we are getting to the kind of Domestic Discipline relationship we have said we want, i.e. real punishment that is designed to change behavior, and not just some kinky game in which there is a perverse desire to do things to get spanked.



I hope people will share a bit about their own experiences when it became real or about how hard it it sometimes is to accept that new reality.  When the Disciplined Husband realized the reality of submitting to real spankings.  When the Disciplinary Wife accepted that she had real power and real responsibility.  Also, I would still like to spend some time on this consistency theme.  What have couples done to ensure that spankings do happen as regularly as warranted and that all those "real life" distractions do not get in the way of a "real" disciplinary relationship.

As always, if you are new to this Forum, please take a moment to drop by the Guestbook  (see tab above) and tell us a little about your DD or FLR lifestyle or aspirations.   

44 comments:

  1. I understand the points you made. There are times during the day when sitting in my grey cubicle that I need to be spanked and think that I should text my wife to give me one or maybe I will wait until getting home to talk it over and we will go to the spanking room. But I get home, she is busy with dinner or her hobby, I get changed come down and sift through the mail or empty the dishwasher and never get around to the spanking. We have dinner and I go to my model railroad and she goes to her weaving loom. So typically any spanking is on the weekend and that is that, even though she will say she needs to spank me during the week. Oh well, it is difficult to get it done. We try.

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    1. Thanks, Baxter. This description does seem to fall into the category that Marisa and Anna were talking about -- not so much unavoidable distractions but competing priorities.

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  2. Hi Dan,
    I agree the resistance can be a sign that progress to real discipline is happening. The moment you seriously resist a spanking is the moment it is staring to work to take you both where you want to be. I have posted earlier about resisting my first girlfriend until her determination and my guilt made me stop resisting and accept what was happening. That was the point where spankings became real for me because I realized that psychologically I could not stop her. But there was a later point where they became even more real and that was when she started spanking consistently and often " on the spot". There is nothing like a series of on the spot" spankings to get my attention and make it all very real. Interesting my wife does not use on the spot spankings very often but my experience with my first girlfriend made a deep impression on me. So I think it becomes real when first you realize your fantasy has become a reality to your girlfriend or wife and you no longer control it or more precisely no longer can control it and must submit. Then if your girlfriend or wife adds consistency to this sense that you must submit, that becomes a permanent part of who you are.
    Alan

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    1. Thanks, Alan. Your comment leads me to think my title for this week's post might have been something like "Resistance," which really is the thing that is on my mind the most right now. Though, it really was one of those days when I sat down and had no real idea what I wanted to talk about and was just kind of bored with the whole thing. Though, that too might be a subtle form of resistance, right? Domestic Discipline is becoming more real, and my mind reacts by disengaging from the whole thing a bit?

      I hear you regarding how one thing can make a deep impression and really bring home the reality, even if it is not part of the current routine. I have talked about an incident in which she unexpectedly spanked me for repeatedly shirking on doing the dishes. Or, more accurately, not doing a complete and thorough job. It happened only once, but it demonstrated a new determination on her part, a new acceptance by her of the reality of the power we had agreed she could wield as she sees fit.

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  3. I've answered this before, but there are new people and today is a new day, so....

    There was a particular day, early on, when after I had been wanting yet wrestling and discussing and 'angst-ing' over having a genuine disciplinary understanding, Rosa declared a spanking for something in the most "this is normal" way that I just had to blink. It was real now. I talked to her about it later and she just looked at me and answered in the most assured manner that 'what did I think? Isn't this what we agreed upon? Isn't this what we both wanted? Doesn't it make sense?.....And if I knew she had liked and adopted the agreement, why would I think she would not employ it as the most reasonable offshoot of whatever situation called for it?' It was very powerful for me to see my Honey display this attitude. There was no need for me to persuade, to coax or cajole, or explain things further. She got it. She liked it. So that's how things would be. 'What's the issue?'

    That day, I definitely got this 'ok, this is our new normal' understanding....and except for issues of stress or other interruptions, it has been how we have lived ever since.

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    1. The incident you recount is kind of the converse of some of the discussions we've had recently regarding "topping from the bottom" and Alan's observations about some of the F/m interactions being an ongoing conversation in which she isn't totally sure whether he has really handed over the reins, so she tests, he responds, etc. Your Rosa plainly accepted the reality a lot more quickly and easily than some do.

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  4. Sorry for another post so close but I need to second what KD say's so well: it becomes "real" when she says it is real, she means it and you hear and obey her.
    Alan

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    1. Agreed. I think we are now half-way to two-thirds there. She says it is real, she increasingly does mean it (though still has doubts now and then) and I hear it but obeying fully and consistently is a challenge if I think I can get away with it.

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    2. But that is the reality of being an adult in a loving relationship. You CAN 'get away with it'. It's a tough balance. Strictness can be welcome or resented and our ladies aren't stupid. They know this is true, and a risk for whatever decision they make. All we can do is try our best to support them when they need it. Rosa IS confident, but like any human that confidence is not immune to erosion. I try to always compliment and reassure her after a punishment that I did not react to well in the moment. Not easy stuff. And you aren't alone in the struggle.

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    3. This is where there may be a difference between men who were spanked at home versus those coming to F/M and DD later in life . A confident in charge woman who knows I can be spanked and intends to do it can literally make my legs shake robbing me of any real power to resist.This is particularly so if she knows those little rituals that make me obedient ( and both women who have disciplined me as an adult know them because I told them) This is even stronger if she has spanked me repeatedly before and a pattern of obedience has been established. I think spankings for me have been cumulative and every time I am spanked by the same woman, the less power I have to resist or be defiant toward her.From what I read on this forum it seems there is more of a power struggle for men who were not trained early to accept discipline.Would love to hear from other guys who were trained early if that's their experience too.
      Alan

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    4. Agreed, though I would tweak it slightly to "Strictness IS welcome AND often resented . . ." We crave the discipline and accountability, right up to the point where we actually get them. And, then again after. Usually.

      I find myself relating this again to the discussion I once tried to stay away from -- parental discipline. When we were kids and got punished, we resented it. Even if we knew it was "for our own good" (though we probably denied that at the time), that didn't mean we didn't fear and resent it right before and during it.

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    5. Hi again, Alan. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a linkage, though I've yet to see evidence of interest in DD being correlated with being spanked as a kid. Seems like people come to it from both spanking and non-spanking backgrounds. But,maybe the amount of power struggle in accepting it is different from the desire itself?

      I am kind of in the middle -- I was spanked at home, though not regularly.

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    6. Similarly, Alan, I was spanked and raised strictly at home. I entered my first disciplinary relationship at 19. So I think the strictness had the opposite effect on me though but in a dualist way: part of me wants the control while another part resents it. Anyway, I think my background conflicts with your theory.

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  5. I guess I'm confused on the your comment to Mark/ Shawn ? Anyway. I have some mixed feelings. There have times when I've gotten away with stuff that I'm grateful for and others not the case. It's a relief to " get away " with something now and then. Maybe we've all felt that sigh of relief. Other times the guilt takes over and I need to fess up. She's always happy that I came forward and a spanking is given but other times angry I didn't do it sooner and it's worse !

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    1. I have similar mixed feelings. I don't know whether it's guilt per se at not reporting, but feeling like a behavioral problem is unlikely to get better if I avoid punishment for it.

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  6. Many times, Shilo gets spanked "just because" and since I'm (finally!) feeling better these days, I'm more likely to notice when he's done something that I feel is worthy of discipline or punishment. I think I've mentioned before that he doesn't go out drinking, he quit smoking, and he's generally well-mannered, although he's had a few incidents in recent weeks, and has received both lectures and harsher than normal spankings from me. In other words, punishment.

    He's really not good about self-reporting the other thing that really irritates me. That "other thing" is masturbation. I know I've been out of commission for 7 months. I understand that my desire and desirability has gone down, but I told Shilo about a month ago that I expected sex. Since then, he hasn't bothered to approach me sexually, and I'm already feeling neglected and unwanted, so I asked him straight out about masturbation. He admitted that he had several times, so I gave him a disciplinary spanking, which he did not enjoy.

    I fully plan on holding him to this, because it's always been a part of our agreement that his orgasms belong to me. Self-reporting would be appreciated, but him giving me what is mine would make me happier.

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    1. I have seen several of your posted videos. Very well done indeed.

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    2. I believe the video reference is to those on Spanking Tube: look 'em up under my user name there : FLFUFO

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  7. Dan-

    I think when you recently hit on the naturally sub versus NOT sub, you identified a more macro point/characteristic that actually splits "us" into 1 of 2 camps. ALL of us here know we want and need to be disciplined.... but based on where you fall on the "sub scale" seems to dictate not only your willingness but also your ABILITY to ask for it or self report versus needing her to be the one controlling things and her proactively holding you accountable and "giving it". Look at how you detailed your recent behavior, or lack there of. You genuinely want to be self reporting but it's just not in your DNA to be able to make yourself do it consistently....it's just not "natural" for you. I hate any "kid" analogies but they do make expressing your point a lot easier and quicker. As a kid I certainly wasn't of my own volition going to my Mother and telling her...."i'd just like you to know I did in fact the take candy you told me to stay away from when you turned your back....oh and btw, I also lied to you yesterday.....I hadn't done my homework"...lol.
    For me the "real" component comes from getting called on the things I do, that yeah....I know are wrong but i do them anyway, and being held accountable for my actions by her. I'm clearly no good at HOLDING MYSELF ACCOUNTABLE...if I were I wouldn't need her to do it for me. So back to my lame analogy.....the discipline got VERY real, VERY fast...as you saw her storming towards you with the incomplete homework in her hand as you were soon tossed over her knee and the hairbrush started landing on your exposed bottom as you heard her saying "how DARE you have looked my right in the face and lied to me about this been DONE". Now that we're adults it's no longer things like incomplete homework that is the issue....but i suggest its the EXACT same priciples..

    So quick aside.....I hadn't realized your wife spanks SO HARD!!! Good for you (in a way...lol). Not sure how I had missed that little detail.

    Heck...we should all start posting all our work travel schedules as we're buzzing around the country. LOL How entertaining would that be having a drink in the lobby bar with a fellow DD hubby!!!!!!

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    1. Hi Darren. I agree with you -- and it is very interesting who people can both want a certain behavior, even though their motivations may be very different. Some want a disciplinary lifestyle because it is consistent with their innate submissiveness. Others want it precisely because they are not innately submissive yet have some neeed, or intellectual desire, for consequences, accountability, etc.

      I also shy away from getting too much into pre-adult motivations or explanations, but in this context it's no different that a group of Freudians hypothesizing about why we do what we do. And your analogy to a kid trying to get away with things is how it seems to work with me in practice. The fact that I have enough wisdom to now recognize that I NEED discipline doesn't outweigh the hardheaded kid who may acccept punishment but sure isn't going to self-report something he knows will lead to it. Your comment also resonates with me that it becomes real not when punishment results from self-reporting but when she really takes control and COMMANDS the spanking whether you like it or not. I have said many times on here -- to mixed reviews from commenters -- that for me the discipline is more real the less it is voluntary, or at least the less I control it or actively move it forward. It becomes real precisely when it is NOT wanted.

      Yes, she spanks very, very hard.

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    2. Dan: I agree with you that 'discipline' is most 'real' (and most effective?) when I don't _want_ it, even though I know I probably deserve it. I also have to accept that she decides how (and how harshly) she may choose to deliver what she feels is the "appropriate" punishment... however hard that may be! Yet, I would never challenge her authority - or her "right" to chastise me as she sees fit.

      L.

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    3. I am glad you see it that way - especially after the strapping you got this morning :-)

      J.

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    4. Loved seeing "J's" little response to "L" there. Kind of sweet.

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    5. Thanks! I spank him because I love him - and I think he knows it...

      J.

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  8. For me the issue at hand is what is your DD objective. Is it to correct behaviors you know are wrong and want to correct? Or, is it to correct specific issues that adversely affect the relationship you have with your wife. If it is the former, I think, if you are serious about making those behavior improvements you should self report and take your medicine. If it is the latter (as is true in my case), then errant behavior that will adversely affect your wife, and in my case, when that happens I will accept my punishment. However, I have no intention of self reporting something she is not aware of that doesn't negatively impact our relationship, but nevertheless was improper behavior. If my bad behavior doesn't negatively impact my wife why should I report it and irritate my wife and burden her.
    As a personal objective, I try to conduct myself as a good Samaritan. Yet I may come into conflict with someone that I take offence to and go overboard in taking that person to task. My wife would spank me if I did that in her presence, but if she isn't, why should I self report that. When I'm alone and driving my car, I will cuss at bad drivers. I don't self report that. But if my wife is in the car with me when I cuss at a driver It affects her and I will get spanked.
    We have an agreement involving behaviors that impact us, as husband and wife. We have agreed that violations are to be sternly dealt with and she has the authority to determine how hard and long spankings will be to punish those violations. She understands the importance of holding me to my commitments for our common benefit, and spanks hard to hold her end of the agreement.
    For us it has worked. I got spanked plenty early on in our DD relationship, but after almost 15 years I have modified my behavior to the extent I rarely violate the rules and the spankings only happen a few times in a year, but they do happen because I occasionally screw up. When that happens, it is a wake up call to refocus avoiding a repeat of that bad behavior. But to this day, I never self report on behaviors that don't impact my relationship with my wife.

    Fred

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    1. I agree that there is no need for 'self-reporting' for matters that have no bearing on the way she expects you to behave. But for those that do (and which she hasn't spotted on her own), I will 'confess' - and even offer my backside to whatever punishment she deems appropriate...

      L.

















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    2. As you did this morning :-)

      J.

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    3. Hi Fred. I think that's a good way to look at it -- the underlying motivation matters. Our DD began with a focus on her punishing things that made her mad. And, that's still reallly why most actual spankings happen. But, I have asked her to help me get on top of some seemingly perpetual problems. You're totally right that having asked for it, I *should* take my medicine. But, that's all part of the same problem. If I pledged not to go off on management at work, theoretically I would be able to just to do it. But, in the moment, I don't resist the temptation. Same with diet issues. Same with exercise. I make the pledge, but temptation to do something else takes over and I cheat. It's kind of the same with self-reporting. I asked for it. Part of me genuinely wants it, but not quite enough.

      It's kind of like that quote from Augustine: "Lord give me chastity . . . But not yet."

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    4. Hi Dan
      Can you clarify whether you actually defy her sometimes and absolutely refuse to take a spanking ordered?That is very different from resisting, trying to negotiate or delay but ultimately submitting to her.These are two different things and it is not always clear to me which you are describing when you talk about " not taking your medicine" Just an aside, but I think some women enjoy a little bit of rebellion as long as they are ultimately obeyed. Sorry if I am being thick
      Alan

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    5. Hi Alan. No, I don't think I have ever refused to take one once ordered.

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    6. Dan,
      I think that is as good as it gets with an alpha male, submitting to a spanking even though you hate it. I recall reading Deirdre's much missed blog, she was frustrated with Evan's resistance and discovered that grabbing his ear and scolding him or leading him to a spanking made him much more cooperative. Those kinds of " cues" or " rituals' vary among couples I imagine. But if a wife or girlfriend pushes the right buttons her male partner will become much easier to handle, alpha or otherwise. I know I personally am apparently more responsive to those rituals than others and I know they vary a lot. For example , with one F/M couple we were once in touch with it was leather boots. Those boots just brought out deep submission in him that otherwise was not evident. But they do nothing for me,while being depantzed and marched to the spanking room takes all the rebellion out of me.I am betting every guy who identifies as a spanko has his Achilles heel and finding it will turn him into an obedient little boy ready to be disciplined. Ear marching if you haven't tried it seems to work for many couples
      Alan

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    7. I think of "ear marching" as part of lecturing, and it is not one of my wife's stronger areas, though she is getting better. I am sure taking command and physically dominating like that could be powerful. I am pretty sure leather boots would be counter-productive for me if the goal was to take me to a more contrite place. They are just too much of a turn-on!

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    8. J. occasionally uses "ear-marching" to lead me to the spot she has chosen to spank me, and she (again occasionally) will don her leather boots - mostly when flogging is "in order" - but there is nothing of a "ritual" in the matter...

      L.

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  9. I know this is off topic but wanted share. All was going well today. We got things done had a nice lunch. When we got home , out of the blue Dev says " we should take of some maintenance. ". I was caught off guard. It wasn't the hardest spanking she's ever given but held my attention the entire time. She learned that HERE !

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  10. As we were turning out the lights last night I was informed that I could expect a spanking this morning. And yes, I clearly knew the reason why.

    So, that's what I am pondering right now.

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    1. Hate 'em. Got it yesterday and today...Damn!

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  11. We have a small collection, the black varnished oval paddle from CoCo de Mer was a real favourite of hers for a long time. Fairly light but with a real sting from the get go which built and built to a hot fire. (In)fortunately after many outings it actually broke in action.

    I was told to replace this and I got a solid oak paddle which I thought she would take to but she finds it jars her hand which is good as it was quite hard to take.

    The current favourite is the Irish School strap from the excellent London tanners which I have a real love hate relationship with. Hate because it is heavy and really stings, love the afterglow and she finds it easy and (she says) very satisfying to use. It always makes an appearance when I'm in for it.

    The Loopy Johnny is the opener in my correction sessions - I dislike everything about this, it always feels like a whip with its double loops. I am always 'pleased' when we move to the strap until the first few strokes...

    We also have a smaller leather paddle which I quite like as it stings but creates a warmth rather than a pain - she quite rightly regards it as much too soft so it rarely gets used.

    And the latest addition is a lovely, short (22") black cane with a soft handle - very ladylike. Only had one outing as yet, she has found it quite hard to use and says lots of practice needed.

    As a segue, a new development is that I need to stop being such a coward. I now have to tell her when I think I may need a session as 'she cannot be on guard all the time'. She (apparently) will still take the initiative if she sees me misbehave but I am expected to take the lead more often. Interesting topic potential.
    TB

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    1. We have that strap, and it too is one of my wife's favorites. I agree 100% on the Loopy Johnny.

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    2. My wife added that requirement about stepping up and speaking the truth if I need a session too. AWKWARD! Not something I like or find easy to do. But it's her rules and I consider it just another demonstraiton of my commitment.

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