Saturday, January 28, 2017

The Forum - Vol. 191 - If You Want to Be Led . . .

Submission is not in the bowing of heads or knees but in the humbling of your whole being (spirit, soul and body)” - Ikechukwu Izuakor
Hello all. Welcome back to The Forum: Disciplined Husbands & Disciplinary Wives.  Our weekly gathering of men, women and couples who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationships.

I hope you had a great week.  Mine was busy and filled with distractions, yet I also felt very unproductive.  I just can't seem to get motivated to take on 2017 and feel like I've kind of already frittered away one-twelfth of the year.  But, like I said, if you are going to stumble, do it early.  Just hope stumbling doesn't become lurching from one stumble to the next throughout the year.

For reasons I may go into in a future post, what I really want to talk about this week is undeserved punishment.  It is a subject that resonates strongly with me as I go into this weekend.  But, we have adone that one within the last year, and I also just need some objectivity before getting into it.  So, instead, this week's topic is an offshoot of some of last week's comments.  Darren brought up that his wife is starting to talk like a budding Disciplinarian, saying things like "You deserve to be paddled for that."  But, the follow-up isn't always there.  Anna suggested that at those times, he might respectfully ask whether he should get the paddle or remove his belt, or words to that effect.  That discussion led Alan to observe:

"I strongly agree with Anna's advice. At the beginning of my relationship with the woman who introduced DD, she would often make remarks like your wife does such as " you should be spanked for that" or " someone needs a spanking." Ultimately I realized it was sort of a negotiation conversation going on in which she was testing the waters to see if I would submit. Remember this was early and she was still uncertain (later that uncertainty goes away pretty fast). But think of it as a conversation asking a question and you supply the answer that encourages and reassures her. It might not guarantee a spanking this time but will greatly increase the chances one will be in the offing.Women who are not experienced disciplinarians want to know you will submit to their authority. Incidentally offering to bring her brush or simply answering " yes ma'am" to her was very effective in those situations"

As Disciplined Husbands or those who want to be in such a relationship, many of us crave accountability and strong female leadership. We want consequences for our actions, and it is important that they be imposed on us.  The more we have to ask, or suggest, or manipulate the situation to lead her to deliver some real punishment, the less it meets our need for real accountability and yielding to another person's will, because it is still really us controlling the situation. But, the reality is, while lots of stories in DD books and websites involve a strong woman getting fed up with her weak or ill-behaved husband to such an extent that she just suddenly takes over and blisters his bottom, in real life it doesn't seem to happen that way very often. Instead, far more often the dynamic involves the husband asking his wife to consider disciplining him, and she accommodates it but with some degree of trepidation, uncertainty and doubt.

So, while I always hope that budding Disciplinary Wives will be inspired by quotes like this,


the reality may be much closer to what Alan is describing -- a series of "testing the waters" exchanges, with her testing to see how serious he is about all this and trying to "level set" on how far he really wants her to take it.  In those cases, it may very well be that while we husbands really want the command to precede the obedience, the commands may start coming only after we demonstrate our willingness to obey.  While the fantasy is that dominance precedes submission, maybe in reality we have to do the opposite?

Is that the way it really does work?  If so, are there things you have done to demonstrate your real willingness to submit or to convince her that your desire is real and that the authority you are asking her to assume won't be taken back the first time she really steps up and tells you to do something you don't like or gives you that real disciplinary spanking that you say you want?  As I hope people saw from the last couple of postings, I am very into concrete steps, i.e. specific things we can say and do to move the ball forward in these nascent DD and FLR relationships.  So, let's get into the details on things you have done to demonstrate real commitment putting her in charge and accepting your role.  Ladies, how do you feel when your husband displays that submission or makes subtle, or not so subtle, suggestions that you carry through and spank him for something that he's done to deserve one?  Does it encourage you, or does it feel like he's trying to take over?  In an ideal world, how would you like him to demonstrate his willingness to submit to your commands or take a real disciplinary spanking from you? What would give you additional confidence in taking over or delivering the discipline he wants and deserves?

I hope you all have a great week.  If you are new to this Forum, please take a moment to visit our Guestbook (see tab above) and tell everyone a little about yourself and your Domestic Discipline lifestyle or aspirations.  Also, please note the poll posted in the upper-right corner of the blog and take a minute to vote.

35 comments:

  1. When we first got more heavily into the idea of unpleasant punishments for real behaviors/misbehaviors, I sometimes gave Rosa a "green light" by writing her an apology that would touch on all the key points of the issue and where I realized I was wrong. In those letters I would 'suggest' how seriously she might wish to punish me 'if she so chose'. Most times she would indeed take that as confirmation to proceed with what she was already pondering.

    The thing is, I would consider Rosa naturally dominant and yet, because she is human and someone who actually LOVES me, she is also cautious with her discipline at times. We went through almost two years of intermittent and half-hearted DD because of the stress we were under and she knew (correctly) that punishment at certain times, even though DESERVED, was the last thing I NEEDED. That recognition make her an empathic, compassionate person in my opinion and what enables me to trust her when she does dramatically take a dominant offensive. But my point is similar to Dan's. Real people, even naturally dominant ones, are going to enter into "real punishment for real behavior" situations with a bit of caution.......at least occasionally......or at least until their confidence builds. But even after years of confident leading, a Top can still be hesitant at times and in need of a little signal to proceed.

    Less dramatic than a letter of apology but just as concrete is simply saying something like, "well, that is your prerogative" or "you'd certainly be within your rights", or even "I would not object, because I think you are right to feel that way" after a threatened punishment. It's subtle, yet direct.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Because she is human and someone who actually LOVES me, she is also cautious with her discipline at times." I could not possibly agree more that this is going to be a part of pretty much every DD relationship between real partners.

      My only caveat is, I wonder whether a lot of DD wives over-estimate the prevalence of those times when you deserve but don't need punishment. I feel like sometimes when I am the most stressed and feeling most out of control may be when I need to reined in very strictly. But, this is where I think we expect a hell of a lot from our wives, because in addition to being strict yet loving, we expect them to be mind-readers.

      Delete
    2. "But, this is where I think we expect a hell of a lot from our wives, because in addition to being strict yet loving, we expect them to be mind-readers."

      Very well put.

      Delete
  2. When I first asked my wife to take a leadership role it was necessary for her to make a conscience effort to stop overlooking my minor infractions that in an equal power relationship a loving wife would ignore. While it is not always practical to be immediately disciplined; I am expected to keep a daily journal where I must record all infractions and my wife ensures that they do not go unpunished. Usually my wife will find a convenient time at least once a fortnight when the tawse is put to use. At times when discretion is required and a spanking cannot be administered, I might not be allowed my weekend release from the chastity device that I am required to wear on work days. Our marriage is much stronger after a year of practising FLR. I came to realise that masturbation was a problem that was causing guilt induced anger and once I admitted the problem and my wife assumed the role of disciplinarian neither of us would want to return to our pre-FLR relationship dynamic.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Jon S. I understand how much it can help move the FLR relationship forward when they consciously stop overlooking "minor infractions." I still remember the first time my wife got fed up with my failure to do the dishes, or leaving the task only partially done, and ordered a spanking for it. It came as a bit of a shock and a very unpleasant surprise, but it signaled a real change in our relationship and its hierarchy.

      Delete
  3. Dating is the time to learn about one another, I've always dated "take charge" women, prefer a couple of years older. Of course the sex must be great. The person I married, met these requirements, but it was her who brought up punishment. She mentioned that I needed reminders, she also said it will have nothing to do with sexual pleasure. I agreed, and she then shock me, you talk in your sleep, trust the spankings will not be what you dream of. From the first spanking, and it wasn't like my dreams, and other punishments, this is what I wanted, for my wife to be in charge and take the lead.

    ReplyDelete
  4. With only a couple consequential spankings on the books, I'm curious about this myself. So far, my wife definitely views spanking me as indulging my fantasy. And she sees witholding discipline as more of a punishment for me than a paddling would be.

    So we are 'testing the waters' as you describe, but I do feel motivated to be on my best behavior (particularly on my goal of weight loss), so that so that, whether it's punishment or reward, she gets comfortable with the process of discussing, evaluating and (most important!) administering discipline.
    CrimsonKing

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi CrimsonKing. I definitely can see how withholding discipline could, in certain circumstances, serve as a punishment.

      Delete
  5. For us, my wife sees my submission to her leadership as obvious. While she still is saying that she is growing into it after 3 months, my decided different way of interaction with her makes her authority clear. It is mostly the day to day actions. Listening to her; not jumping in with my plans for us; waiting for her; offering almost daily massages, she clearly sees what I think of her. And, like a women, she doesn't do what I would do as the leader Hoh. I wait. Yesterday, she said that she was feeling her power when she remodeled the family room, buying things and moving out old pieces, all without a single concern about my naysaying or criticism. And it's true, I am thrilled to know my wife this way. I love to see her grow and create from her own heart and mind. As for spankings, she is growing to enjoy making the slapping sounds and making my ass red, she says. She doesn't like to have to disipline me though. She wants me to behave and avoid those. She made me a believer too. Last time there was no connection, but loads of pain even a little depression for a few days. So she spanks me erotically and for my requests at absolution. We feel like we've found our perfect place in this world. Love. Bill

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Bill. I understand and appreciate the example remodeling the family room without consulting you. I have from time to time refused to weigh in on a decision, in order to force her to trust her own judgment more. And, over time, she has in fact started making more decisions without feeling any need to consult with me.

      Delete
  6. I have long since learned - from my (late) first wife as well as from my second wife - which parts, or areas, of our common life are subject to her 'prerogative', and which are left to my own discretion.
    In the former domain (which covers the running of our household as well as 'appropriate behavior' in social occasions), I am expected to follow orders - and to accept chastising if I don't. She doesn't interfere in the second domain (which covers my professional life), unless it affects her in some way.

    L.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mine kind of bifurcates things in the same way, though as I recounted when she made me apologize to someone at work, she is not totally hands-off in that realm either.

      Delete
    2. My wife has (thus far) avoided mentioning how she deals with my 'misbehavior' when we socialize with my co-workers (though she may have hinted at it to their spouses) but, on the other hand, several of her (female) colleagues have heard about our 'household rules' - and a couple of them have actually watched her 'discipline in action' -as J. herself did when N. was 'in charge' and showed her how she kept me 'in line'

      L.

      Delete
  7. Dan
    I have waited a day or two before commenting. First to say that punishment for your bad behavior must be imposed upon you is merely another version of topping from the bottom. To add insult to injury to quote Machiavelli ? My, my how you disappoint.
    anna

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, this is one we probably couldn't see more differently. If I am constantly going to my wife and asking for punishment, in my mind THAT is topping from below. And, if she is not punishing consistently, then she is really kind of Topping in name only.

      If what I need as part of a DD relationship is accountability, and I am responsible not only for taking discipline but asking for it, then I am holding MYSELF accountable. You and I agree on a lot of things, but I am just never going to accept this premise that once a woman says she is a Top or a disciplinarian, from that point forward it is just up to the man to submit and she has no responsibility to actually take the reins and Lead. That is the entire point of Machiavelli's quote -- Leaders lead. "Wanting" to be obeyed and actually being in command are two entirely different things.

      Delete
    2. Picture a group of kids from the "old days" who want to play "Follow the Leader". After a lot of discussion one kid who says she wants to be 'leader' is chosen to lead. She then promptly sits down and reads a magazine. The kids who are supposed to follow her, are sort of 'obliged' by the rules of the game to read magazines as well. But how long is that going to work for everyone?

      I agree that leaders must actually lead. Having the rank of leader may require others to follow you, but if you never actively take up the reins, your leadership will be hollow and eventually falter.

      Delete
  8. I cannot speak for Dan but saying that punishment for bad behavior must be imposed on me is simply explaining the dynamic necessary for DD to work long time.Another way to put it is that in certain areas of life we lack self discipline and need discipline externally imposed.Stating that or telling your partner that could probably be construed as " topping from above" but it is also critical communication about what works

    Alan

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Agreed, though I tend to look at this in terms of control. For men who are not naturally submissive (myself included), the attraction of DD is often the very scary prospect of having to yield to someone else's control. The very essence of what the man is doing is handing over control to someone else. If If the discipline and control is being handed out, if at all, only because I ask or pursuant to what I want -- in other words, it is not being imposed -- then I am still in control, which is exactly the opposite of what I wanted out of DD in the first place. For me to feel it is "real" there needs to be an element of it being imposed whether I like it or not. In fact, if I "like" it, then it's just another form of play.

      Delete
    2. Fully agreed. All of this is part of the highly choreographed " dance of discipline" which like real dance may look easy, but never is
      Alan

      Delete
  9. This is an interesting discussion for me. Because my wife is patient and loving and I am a mature, high functioning adult, I would be waiting a very long time before my wife imposed any discipline on me. It could happen but rarely. The way it works from me is not unlike the process that I learned in Catholic school over 45 years ago. We use a ritual - put it on the calendar. I bring to her all the things that I feel I need to improve on -- Things like how I talk to her sometimes, how I attentive I am with work, and how I interact with others are frequently discussed. I ask for punishment. Just like the priest who heard my confessions as a kid, my wife listens. And then she helps me. Here are some benifits to our 'confession' ritual taken from some Catholic Church teachings.
    1. Confession helps me to better “know myself.”

    When I take time to reconcile my life's actions to my expectations, I realize the mistakes I make and how badly it effects other people. It brings me to terms with my need for grace/forgiveness to get through life. Frequent Confession helps remind me who I am in this relationship and what my destiny is.

    2. Confession helps me overcome my weaknesses.

    The favor from my wife that I receive in the form of discipline helps me combat my faults and failings and break out of bad habits much more easily and expediently than I could otherwise.

    3. Confession brings us both peace.

    Guilt and resentments from the my shortcomings makes me feel a little mixed up inside and causes me to lose peace and joy. When I hear my wife's stern words of rebuke and then words of forgiveness afterwards, a burden is lifted off my shoulders and I can again feel the peace of heart and soul that comes from being in a good relationship with my wife and myself.

    4. Confession helps me become more humble.

    In my mind, I want to be a humble and attentive soul. When I am coming to my wife for our sessions, I feel that it helps transform me into a person who is more like what I want to be - humble, attentive, and thoughtful.

    5. Confession makes both our wills stronger.

    Every time I experience my wife's discipline, I feel stronger. I feel a greater sense of urgency about what's going on in my life. I feel better able to exercise my willpower and self-control to be able to act in a manner that produces positive outcomes. I become more resolute to follow my best self and don't act of some silly whims. My wife feels stronger and empowered as well. Thank you for your blog. sincerely, FormerCatholicBoy

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi FCB. Thank you for this very, very thoughtful comment. Hope you join in more in the future.

      Delete
    2. FCB,

      Joe2 here,

      You have eloquently said what has been a jumble of thoughts in my head. A long time ago, my wife and I tried a very abbreviated form for my work habits and it failed because my wife did not want to be the enforcer. Maybe if I take your words and modify it to my situation, she might reconsider.

      Delete
    3. Happy to hear that you found something useful to you. The enforcer role doesn't fit my wife. She has put on the leader role very well, but the enforcement thing runs so against her grain unless it is something that directly offends her. Like one day, she dragged me back to my hotel room and beat me good when I disrespected her. But it's a rarity that I disrespect her, so for me to feel her discipline I must tell her how i see it and ask for it..

      Delete
    4. I am not Catholic ( Jay is) but I LOVE confession. I am not talking about the contrived " mommy I was naughty" version designed to get a spanking, but the sincere heartfelt admission of guilt and acceptance of penance. This is very hot for a dominant woman ( maybe even a vanilla woman)I believe it taps deeply into our nurturing nature as well as the penance giving role so natural to us. Jay knows when he confesses before I confront him he always feels better almost immediately and almost always receives less severe punishment.The act of confessing is cleansing for him and so my strap has much less to do. It is also strong evidence of my authority over him and tha is always a rush.
      Marisa

      Delete
    5. Hi Marisa. Apparently confession is good for his soul even if bad for his behind!

      The last sentence of your comment really gets right at what I was going for with this topic. So many of us want our wives to just step right into the strong, dominant role -- but it doesn't come naturally to every woman and some of the them need "confidence builders" for lack of a better word. I know you are naturally dominant, so it's probably more about "affirmation" than "confidence building," but the input I was hoping to elicit with this topic is whether the husband initiating overtly submissive acts would help meet the woman's needs and help grow her reinforce her dominance.

      Your comment also, by the way, affirms my thoughts on a topic for next week. Stay tuned and expect to see part of your comment quoted again.

      Delete
    6. As agnostics, the RC version of "confession" is not for us - but the admission of "misbehavior" definitely is (as well as the delivery/acceptance of 'appropriate' punishment)

      L.

      Delete
    7. Marisa: Thanks for that view. It certainly is consistent with how Rosa reacts to a heartfelt confession from me. I never thought it was a thing common to women.

      Delete
  10. I may try to figure out a way to turn this into more of an independent topic, but I was perusing JGirl's blog, www.ashrewtamed.blogspot.com, and just loved these quotes from her most recent posting, which relate a bit to some of the comments going back and forth today, emphasizing the mutual responsibility inherent in any kind of real DD:

    "He disciplines me, consistently and firmly, because I thrive under his discipline. He does it because our relationship is founded on his being the leader, my dominant, and it’s foundational to our dynamic that I obey him. He disciplines me because a part of me needs that, craves the accountability, and not just sexy spanking but real discipline. I find it deeply erotic, and utterly appealing, and so does he."

    "Dominants have tremendous responsibility. In many cases, they are the leaders of the homes. They oversee the spiritual, emotional, and physical needs of not just you, but their children, and yes, I’m addressing those of you still growing into these roles. Dominants carry the weight of their obligations every day. It’s not always pleasant being the one in charge. Sometimes they have to make hard decisions."

    There's a lot of great stuff in her post. I hope you all will check it out.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think there maybe something to the male/female energy expressed here. When I read those quotes, it sounds like a women talking about a man. The Taoist tradition has a masculine energy as a rock and feminine energy as water. I feel like women are more fluid and less apt to hold on to a specific enforcement standard. They are more interested in emotional. If allowed to embrace their power, women create. Women dominate and lead differently than men. But I think that if we give women the creative freedom to lead they may create something amazing. It takes a patient husband to do this but the pay off maybe worth it. Give a women a house and she will make a home. From my experience women don't as easily allow you to put them into some box of ideas. FCB

      Delete
    2. It is a woman talking about a man. She is the sub in a F/m domestic discipline relationship.

      Delete
  11. Replies
    1. Bart, I'm really sorry, but I accidentally deleted your post. Hate to ask you to say it again, but can you?

      Delete
  12. I wasn't sure which topic my comment belongs under. So I picked this one; it seems relevant. It is in relation to the discussions about how, when, or if someone's wife really takes charge and how much "leadership" they display.

    I think that "take charge" stuff varies over time and circumstances. It goes up and it goes down. Around here, on the rare occasions when my red-head wife's anger boils over, it shoots past Leadership and Taking Charge to "holy shit. I wish I were anywhere else but here!"

    ReplyDelete

Your comment will posted if/when approved by the moderator. This blog is a curated resource for those genuinely and positively interested in DD and FLR lifestyles. Comments that are rude, uncivil, inconsistent with the blog's theme or off-topic may not be posted or may be removed.