Saturday, January 14, 2017

The Forum - Vol. 189 - Am I Getting Through to You? Repeat Offenses

The events we bring upon ourselves, not matter how unpleasant, are necessary in order to learn what we need to learn; whatever steps we take, they're necessary to reach the places we've chosen to go. -- Richard Bach

Hello everyone.  Welcome back to The Forum - Disciplined Husbands & Disciplinary Wives.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or interested in being in, a Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship.  I hope you all had a good week.

Although we didn't set a record for the number of comments by any means, I thought last week's discussion on embarrassment and humiliation as potential DD tools was a good one to explore.  It's clear that the potential for being embarrassed by having our wives' authority demonstrated in public is disconcerting and threatening to many of us, particularly if it were to include a revelation that we get spanked for bad behavior.  And, it's not just in "public."  We are just as mortified about our kids or close relatives or friends finding out.  Maybe more so.  As I said in responding to a comment from Marisa, however, it's interesting that the likelihood of someone finding out about our spankings is kind of within our own control, since for those couples using spankings as real punishment for real offenses getting punished is, to a large extent, within his own control, because we could avoid it by behaving better.  It's also kind of interesting that one reason couples try so hard to avoid having their kids overhear a spanking is because of the embarrassment it would cause Dad, but in doing that they are really choosing to place an upper limit of sorts on the punishment he is subject to, by taking inter-family embarrassment off the table.

I was mulling this all a bit this morning while thinking about possible topics and looking for appropriate quotes.  During the course of that, I found this one from a book by Stephen King that would have been perfect as the headline quote for last week:

      "A man who can't bear to share his habits is a man who needs to quit them."
  
 Then there was this quote from Marisa:

"I am weary of punishing him repeatedly for the same behavior. I know especially if I spank him in front of another male or couple ( no couple now is available but a male is), Jay would do anything in his power to avoid a repeat. I am not suggesting anyone else try this and it is risky which is probably why I have not already used it. But sooner or later a wife gets tired of revisiting the same issues ( I hear some of this echoed in Anna's remarks above). I am not going to divorce him while spanking still works but I am going to find a way to beat his ass that lasts a long long time."

So, how do wives deal with repetitive bad behavior?  One possible solution that may, or may not, work is consistency, i.e. making sure that discipline actually is meted out consistently every time the problem behavior occurs.  I do think the lack of consistency has been a big problem for us over the years, because in the back of my mind I know that when it comes to certain bad habits and behaviors, the odds of escaping punishment are really kind of in my favor.

If consistency doesn't seem to work,  is it a matter of cranking up the severity?


Or, maybe one spanking for one offense just isn't enough for really deeply rooted behaviors?

Or, more to Marisa's point, if spankings are not working, does a true Disciplinary Wife need to take things to not just a new level, but in an entirely different direction?  In other words, does she in fact need to find something that he hates or fears even more than being spanked?  Like, taking him downstairs or upstairs for a hard paddling or strapping even if kids are in the house and might overhear? Or letting him know that if he does it again, she will tell a friend or relative that he gets spanked or, worse yet, do it in front of someone else?  Or, perhaps she starts grounding him or taking away privileges?

So, what happens, or should happen, if "normal" spankings don't seem to be getting the point across?  Any suggestions from experienced wives or from men whose wives finally cranked it up enough to really make him avoid the bad behavior?

I hope you all have a great week. And, if you are new to this Forum, please take a minute to go to the Guestbook (tab above) and tell us a little about yourself and your DD or FLR lifestyle or aspirations.

74 comments:

  1. This wife resolution, is simple, my husbands hates facing the wall, especially naked, more than the spanking. So yes the spanking is harder, start with hairbrush, and extra time facing the wall, also means more of a chance of being seen. It does work wonders.

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    1. Thanks, Anonymous. We haven't tried it, but I don't know if facing the wall would add a lot of threat for me on top of the spanking. But, as I said, we haven't tried it.

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    2. If you do not mind displaying your spanked bottom, then it would not work. My husband knows a few of my friends are aware that he is spanked. He has been seen by a couple of my friends, they make a comment. If he makes a comment back he knows I will have him across my lap and spanked in front of them, so he has not done that. Just not comfortable being naked in front of "strangers".

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  2. Dan, I always like your graphics but this week's are particularly good. I often wonder how you consistently find these great graphics. Onto the topic at hand, it would seem to me that more severe spankings would be appropriate for repeat offences.

    If the severity is increased with each additional repeat offence it should reach the point where he can't stand it anymore and the dread of getting punished even worse yet should prevent him from doing it again. It's interesting to see in the above comment that facing the wall in addition to the punishment has been effective.

    Perhaps privileges could be granted and denied according to behaviour in addition to punishment. It will be interesting to hear what various people think can be effective behaviour modification.

    I_ObeyHer
    (my FetLife name)

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    1. Thanks,IOH. Regarding the graphics and where I find them -- way too much time surfing the 'Net.

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    2. I was thinking along the same lines as IOH.....for me it wouldn't be so much denying "privilages"....but after being given an assigned "punishment chore" which is something i genuinely don't like doing. for me at least that would bring multiple thing into it, like last weeks topic....being made to do a chore is a degree of humiliation. i HATE having someone else telling me i have to do something, so acquiescing to a "command" and "doing as I'm told" gets to me.....I guess by definition it's a way of showing submission. this idea of chores has come up w wife and I recently also as a way to keep a punishment/accountability mindset in play between us at times when a spanking isn't possible due to "real life" circumstances....like kids ect

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    3. Hi Darren. I agree. One irony as we explore the FLR aspect of our relationship is that the part I hate the most is "service submission" including being told to do things like chores, and *of course* that is the part she gravitates to the most.

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  3. Some of probably do want to be caught, at some level. If it really made my Wife mad, i think an actually unpleasant session (more waiting for Her, painful paddling or that whip, and standing at the wall for 30 minutes) would make me change my ways. I agree also pulling some privileges on top of that would make the whole price pretty darn steep. Bob

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    1. Hi Bob. I obviously agree that if the current sessions are not "actually unpleasant" then they are unlikely to work.

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  4. Perhaps it's time for the couple to have a serious conversation away from any possible discipline location. If he understands that it's no longer working for her, the threat of no discipline - the loss of the disciplinary aspect of their relationship - may be more effective than a 'shock and awe' session, or the threat of exposure (a one-time tool).
    Sadly, some bad behavior just can't be deterred, but I think communication is what's needed here.
    CrimsonKing

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    1. It is an interesting question of whether withholding discipline could itself be disciplinary. I'm sure it could be, though it is also begs the question of whether what is being doled out currently actually IS discipline for that person. See my comment to Bob immediately above. The plain fact is that some men like being spanked. Some men like being humiliated. It's hard to say that giving someone something that they actually enjoy can be genuinely disciplinary.

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  5. Not quite on topic but re kids knowing about what we do;

    We are not open about the discipline part of our FLR but are open about how I do the household chores and that she has ultimate choice when deciding things.

    At a restaurant she may say well dear off home so you can finish the laundry. Most recently that was said when out with my parents her mom and her sister.

    My wife her sister and our daughter have baseball tickets. Often we buy an extra ticket and I go. When I don't go I am left a list usually lengthy of extra chores. Sometimes hard . Sometimes made hard by being silly. Clean the toilet with toothbrush silly. Sometimes things that accumulated. Hand was her lingerie. A hard one for me given the intimate nature. Her sister will ask if I had plans so could not join them and be told no he's home cleaning. She may then chuckle. Or tells me she does. And say. I left him a list. Next time I see my sister in law she may joke with me how did you do with your list.

    At home she and my daughter will cozy on the couch to watch TV while I do dishes or ironing.

    The kids need to see that a lady can be strong and powerful.

    On the humiliation question. Yes it's humiliating when people know I'm doing chores and not out.

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    1. Thanks, iruser. This may be where we are headed -- being somewhat more open about her being in charge, but not necessarily more open about anything involving discipline and spanking.

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  6. Dan
    When one of my boys was maybe 6 he and I had spent the day together and I indulged him. We took his first air plane ride, ate only the foods he wanted, went to the wax museum and then went to toys r us and he got picked out an expensive truck. As we waited for the train, on the platform was a vendor selling small toy trains, which of course he wanted. I smiled and firmly said no. He was sitting on my shoulders and he tapped my head and said " I get it you mean enough is enough! right?"
    I think we are often like my son, when Anna says tells me to clear the table or not to bring my phone to the dinner table, and she has that tone in her voice, not anger , dont mean anger, but speaking firmly I know when enough is enough. At dinner my phone is left in the den. I will admit that I only stopped bringing phone to table when the boys. both of them began bringing their cell phones to table. It was that moment when I saw what sort of example I set for my boys I did as told. I want to point out Anna never yelled about the phone but of course I felt justified since it wasnt personal it was business.
    peter

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    1. Hi Peter. We have the same bad habit of having phones at the dinner table (and laptops and ipads), and I wish we hadn't done that Unfortunately, my wife is just as bad as I am on that score.

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    2. Worst tanning I ever got was for playing around with my phone at dinner.

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  7. Habits are habits and are always hard to change if they are ingrained. Some habits are just annoyances to Rosa though and while they are things she will punish for, she sometimes almost seems grateful for the occasional lapse as an 'excuse' (not that she needs one) to spank me.

    But repeat offences of things that are really important or deeply emotional do result in a frustration in Rosa that she usually expresses verbally with a tone of deep disappointment and frustration. That tone will make me feel so bad that I don't need more punitive severity (although that does often go along with repeat offences) since the guilt over Rosa's disappointment becomes a strong motivator for me to try harder next time.

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    1. Hi KD. Welcome back. I've been intending to do s separate topic soon on verbalizing, the importance of tone, expressing frustration, openly, etc. I planned to do it a couple of weeks ago in response to a problem we were having, but comments here kept leading me in different directions. Which is fine. It's so hard to come up with new topics sometimes, I tend to go with the flow if comments suggest taking things in a particular direction, while keeping my original ideas in reserve.

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    2. By the way, I was reading some comments and thinking more about increased severity as a consequence of repeat misbehavior. On one hand it seems an obvious and almost instinctive response. It certainly happens here. And even as a parent you try to make repeats wore by doubling the time period of a revoked privilege or whatever, but there is a practical limit. There is a point at which there's not much further you can go. I am reminded of when a person could be hanged for pickpocketing and yet the most popular place to pick a pocket was at a public hanging. Human nature often defies logical thought.

      This is why I believe increased severity is all well and fine. I certainly expect the second or third spanking for a particular thing to be worse than the previous ones, yet that expectation did not stop me from committing the misbehavior. It really is a matter of a deep desire not to screw up and hurt our partners that motivates more effectively than a red bottom. (though the red bottom often helps solidify the message)

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    3. It's certainly true there are practical limits to increasing the severity of a spanking. There also are very big variations in individual pain tolerance. I believe there are men who probably could not be spanked hard enough to make them really want to change a bad behavior. But, I think it bears mentioning that increased severity may be a good first or second attempt, because she may think she is delivering a real disciplinary spanking when it's not remotely close to pushing him to his limits. For example, if the wife is using a hairbrush and the OTK position, I think it is pretty unlikely he is experiencing anything close to his real limits. And before abandoning severity entirely, maybe the solution isn't a harder spanking, but multiple ones on the same day. Or three days in a row.

      Isn't the real answer to the irony of the pickpocketing that the pickpocket, like most of us, is from time to time balancing the likelihood of getting caught with the downside if it happens, and the utility or pleasure if we don't get caught or figure out some other way to get out of the punishment. The pickpocket has just very rationally determined that the public hanging was a place where there were lots of targets and where the chance of getting caught were slim. Though, it's also probably true that those criminals who get caught the most are probably those who were the least mentally equipped to accurately assess the odds of both capture and punishment.

      But, your core point is exactly why I wanted this topic to explore a range of means of ramping it up, including things that have nothing to do with spankings at all. Maybe if he's a football fan, she bans him from watching football on Sundays for a month. If he is a reader, maybe he is banned from opening a book and must, instead, sit quietly doing nothing. Maybe he is banned from the internet for two weeks. Or maybe it is a spanking but it is carried out somewhere where others may hear. That was really the point of the topic for me -- if the current spanking routine isn't addressing the core problem, then what else can she do to actually make the behavior stop? Because, I agree with you that a deep desire not to screw up would help a lot, but what if it isn't there, i.e. she thinks something is a major issue while he doesn't really think it should be, or the pull of whatever bad thing he is doing is just too tempting?

      Sort of along these lines, I read a book lately about habit formation, and the author made what I thought was an interesting point, namely that we have the hardest time breaking habits when they are associated with some aspect of what we see as our identity. If part of how you see yourself is as a gourmet and passionate foodie, sticking to a bland diet will be especially hard for you even if a doctor tells you that you must. Smoking may be harder for you to quit if part of your self-image is the Marlboro Man. Drinking may be harder to moderate or break if you see yourself as the life of the party, or if you are a salesman and you truly believe that sales is about relationships and many clients want to be wined and dined. I'm not sure what that suggests for changing DD to get at those "core identity" behaviors, but I would love to know, since that probably is at the root of part of my problem with over-indulging in alcohol. I had a colleague tell me once that almost all of his closest personal and professional relationships either started with or were deepened over having beers in a cheery bar or pub, and I had to agree with him to a very large extent.

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    4. Dan
      Your last point is right on. In victorian days it was called a Gentleman's club. Merely a place where men can gather and even replay their favorite games without their partner rolling their eyes. The best deals I have made in business and the best business connections I have made have been over a beer. I hear Anna now warming up her paddle now for my chauvinism now.
      That was a joke Anna! : )

      peter

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    5. Hi Peter. It is interesting how deeply intertwined alcohol and business are. I saw an article last week in which a sales guy was talking about how he gave up alcohol and all the benefits he found in doing that. But, most of the benefits he listed were on the non-career front (saving money, etc.). When you drilled down into how foregoing alcohol actually impacted his sales career, it turns out he didn't really break the connection between selling and alcohol. Instead, he would arrive at the bar or restaurant early, before his client or target got there, and would tell the waiter or waitress that each time he ordered a gin and tonic they were to bring him tonic water with no gin. So, he did give up alcohol and it probably did have a positive impact, but it also involved lying and pretending to imbibe.

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  8. Of course the wive punishes her hubby in each marriage something different! With us it is so that I usually get spanked on my bare bottom with her hand, the wooden spoon and the cane. Besides, I have constantly to wear girls underwear that makes me aware of my status in our marriage at any time! After spanking is for me almost always at least 15 minutes cornertime announced! Other punishments that my wife has introduced for me are room arrest, tv and pc ban and early bedtime! I am just being raised like a little boy, but I loves my wife very much!I do not want to miss the disciplines, they are necessary so I respect the authority of my dear wife! Strictpunishedhubby

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    1. Thanks, Anonymous. I do think banning all connected devices (phone, computer, tablets, etc.) would probably be a devastating punishment. But, it would be impractical for those of us who rely on those heavily for work. Maybe if combined with having to provide browsing history or something so she can confirm the only use was work related? I also think there are apps you can install that allow you to visit only certain approved websites. That might help her enforce a "no surfing" punishment while still allowing work related use.

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    2. Hello Dan, thanks for your reply. From Phone ban I never wrote. With pc ban I mean of course only the private. My wife controls this by standing next to me when I sit at pc! On weekends or holidays, this punishment is of course better! It always depends on how the family and professional conditions are! Where there is a will, there is a way! At the same time, I would like to thank you for your excellent blog!                   Strictpunishedhubby

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  9. Of course all men - and women too! - are likely to commit 'repeat offenses' (L. certainly does!) but I draw a difference depending on how frequent such relapses are - and whether they were deliberate! If a 'repeat' misdemeanor is merely the result of L's usual clumsiness (e.g. when performing one of his routine domestic chores), a swift 'reminder' with the kitchen spoon or the martinet will take care of it - but, if it involves a willful disregard of previous warnings, a major session with the strap, the rattan cane or the riding crop is needed (and its effects are remembered for a long while!)

    J.

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    1. Thanks, J. The distinction between unconscious misdemeanors and conscious disregard of a significant rule are worth keeping in mind.

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    2. Does a role play whether a unconscious misdemeanors and conscious disregard? It depends on his behavior! In my opinion, strict corporal chastisement is always necessary to improve the behavior of the husband! Strictpunishedhubby

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    3. I don't believe in "one sizes fit all"

      J.

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  10. In our home my wife simply doubles the last spanking for repeating behavior and that does it. I understand that it's my individual pain tolerance level that makes this work and it's not effective for everyone.

    But what K.D. said about the pain of disappointing his wife being a big factor in motivating change...that goes for me too...big time.

    Also, my wife does not have to monitor my Browser History, or suddenly catch me doing something I am not supposed to do. All she has to do is ask. If I am not oging to tell her the truth, why would I bother having a DWC relationship in the first place?

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  11. That's obviously the ideal, but I tend to come from the "trust but verify" school of thought.

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  12. Tomy is on point here about monitoring.It creates a catch me if you can mentality that works at cross purposes with DD.But asking and confessing really can work in a commuted DD.With my first disciplinary girlfriend she tried to deal with unauthorized masturbation expecting me to tell her ( and accept punishment) when I did it. But I never could consistently get to the point that I self reported. I didn't lie to her, but just didn't volunteer that I had masturbated. We hit upon a system that sound like Tomy's. She agreed to ask frequently if I had "played with myself" ( a phrase I always found embarrassing)In turn I promised to never lie to her about it when she asked. It added a lot of intimacy to our relationship because she stressed truthfulness and over time it greatly reduced the behavior. We used it for masturbation but it could work for any behavior not easy to observe but important to modify
    Alan

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    1. Hi Alan. I'm sticking with the comment I made to Tomy, "Trust but verify." While also acknowledging those two are probably an oxymoron.

      But, I don't think monitoring and verifying are incompatible with DD. With some forms of D/s, maybe. But, I can see a woman being driven DD and being driven to monitor precisely because he isn't always forthcoming and will try to get away with something if he can. It seems like there may be some Femdom or D/s biases coming in here, with this black and white vision that just because he *should* always be scrupulously subservient and honest he necessarily will, at least if he is *really* into DD, seems to be to be too black and white and also gives too much credit to those who submit simply because they are submissive and compliant by nature. Some of us are pretty strong-willed, and it's sometimes going to be take more than good intentions to unfailingly take direction and also to take consequences without trying to get out of them. DD and D/s are about one person submitting, but they are also about the other person dominating and enforcing her will even, or especially, when he is not particularly inclined to comply.

      I try to resist being one of those people who says, "There are two types of people in this world . . ." But, I do think there are, at a very general level and with lots of caveats, two types of men who are drawn to an FLR -- those who are naturally submissive and get off on having someone tell them what to do, and those who are naturally dominant but see a big value or potential for personal growth in being subject to someone's rules and being held accountable for breaking them. I've always been clear that I am in the latter camp, and I think it's just not true to say that those with strong anti-authoritarian tendencies aren't aren't "really" into DD or that there is "no point" to it if they do not always comply easily or fully. It reminds me of when I was in high school and had two female friends who had pledged that they were going to remain virgins until at least graduation. Both of them made it (or so they said), but one of them never seemed that interested in sex anyway, while the other was all hormones all the time (and drop dead gorgeous to boot, so she did not lack for opportunities). So, when it came to living up to their pledge, it wasn't really a fair or even contest. It doesn't mean they both weren't into it and both weren't approaching it honestly, but can we really say that there is anything all that praiseworthy about one who isn't all that interested in sex anyway keeping a pledge to be chaste?

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    2. I do, by the way, see asking frequently as something that could very well work, and seems to for you and Tomy. But, isn't it also a form of monitoring? It seems to me it is monitoring but relies on the honor system.

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  13. Dan
    There is only one way to have DD work. That is to be submissive. To be a dominant man that wants to explore, well I believe in BDSM the refer to that as toping from the bottom. A wife, if she is to be successful they have to be her rules, her time her way.
    You need to submit to that. That is true submission. I dont want Peter to be a slave but much as I expect
    my boys to follow the rules so I expect Peter to do the same. If we have set up his chores they need to be done. If we have set up and agree about honoring time, it has to be done. Do not call at 6 and say ill be home in half an hour and then waltz in 3 hours later saying a last minute thing came up. Then call when it comes up. If we agree no electronics at table then there are none.
    My point is that too often I have seen Peter and you say here, you lost track of time. or the number of drinks. That is an insult. If you made these agreements with the head honcho and then gave him the same excuses I hear often I doubt you have a job for long.
    If spanking doesnt work as far as I am concerned then discipline stops.One does not pick and choose what parts of submission you want to follow, especially after you have said what it is you want it for.
    Sorry if its a rant. Like Granny says A'YOU CANT HAVE IT TWO WAYS"
    Or as OI have said to Peter then go a pro to be spanked and experiment. There you can have control.Wives are not mind readers. ]
    Now that I have ranted I will say if a couple wants to explore DD, go slowly and put your heart and soul into following whatever you have agreed to. If its important enough you will squeeze it in. Much like you can squeeze in watching a ball game or having another drink, while your wife stews over the stew.
    Thank God for the forum!
    ANNA

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    1. [Breaking this into two responses because of blogger size limits]

      Hi Anna,

      I think you are looking at only one half of the equation, and I very intentionally put this topic out there to nudge people to think through both sides. There are two people involved in every power exchange relationship. And, if they aren't both naturals at the roles, they are going to need to grow into them. He becomes more submissive or compliant, but she also needs to learn to be more dominant and controlling with expanding leadership skills. In D/s, one dominates and one submits. DD is NOT, however, just typical D/s. It adds an extra element, which is the authority to enforce the rules. (This is why I object to categorizing DD as some "D/s light" subgroup of D/s, because it is MORE than dominance and submission, not less than it). To illustrate what I mean, a D/s relationship of the kind you and Tomy are advocating really wouldn't need spanking or punishment at all, right? She sets the rules and he follows them, end of story. No punishment involved in any form because he is compliant all the time. And, some D/s relationships work that way. Kathy's relationship as described over at http://femdom101.blogspot.com is apparently an example. She leads and he follows and there is no punishment involved, particularly no corporal punishment. And, the reason that works for them is because her husband is a natural submissive who likes to serve and submit.

      But, that doesn't fit the dynamic that every DD couple are in, or maybe even most of them, since most of these relationships do involve ONGOING discipline, including but not exclusively spankings. If I took your comments and Tomy's at face value or extended them to their logical conclusion, I would be asking how are you in "real" D/s relationships if you aren't getting dominance right all the time in every respect and he isn't perfectly submissive all the time? The very fact that spankings do still happen would, by that standard, indicate that something is not working according to the rules, correct?

      But, we all know that isn't how this works in real life, and I continue to believe this results from, to a big extent, this very unhelpful mixing and matching of BDSM, D/s and DD concepts. And, as I said this topic was designed to tease out what couples can do if, despite their good faith efforts, spankings are not resolving the problem. So, let's look at it from both perspectives:

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    2. Men: Not all men are going to comply easily, while others do. And I absolutely do not buy that the difference is in how much they love or respect their wives. Instead, the ones who comply easily may be naturally submissive and may even get off on being totally and completely subservient. And, they may be that way in all aspects of their personalities, such that they are submissive and compliant "rule followers" at work, too. I had always assumed, partially because it is who I am, that many men are attracted to DD because they are NOT naturally submissive and are really Alpha males who crave the kind of balance that DD requires. But, I ran a poll here to test that, and to my surprise there was a large contingent who were subscribed themselves as natural followers both at work and at home. As I said above, I don't see it as any great accomplishment for someone who is naturally a follower to do what he is told.

      Women: The whole point of this topic was, what can or should a woman do if spankings are getting the job done on a particular problem. Spankings sometimes result in instant compliance, and sometimes they don't, and the "fault" with that could lie in multiple areas. Is he just failing to submit? Or, is she not spanking hard enough? Not using the right implement? Not consistent enough in actually enforcing the rules she has set? Or, is this an issue that spankings are not the right disciplinary tool for this particular job? Are there things he hates even more than being spanked? If I am a manager, and I have only one arrow in my quiver for getting top performance out of my people, then I need to think about how I am leading and what else I should be doing. In the military they say there are no bad crews, only bad leaders. That is probably a little too simplistic, but taking on a leadership role means actually commanding, following through, and finding "motivators" that actually work.

      I used to have as my Profile picture a motivational quote from Machiavelli that said "He who wants to obey must first know how to command." And, that is really what this topic is getting at. If she isn't getting full compliance, then what is she willing to do to command it, and what are the available tools to do that?

      With that, I will stop my own "rant." :-)

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    3. As a follow-up, here are the results of that previous poll, which we did back in 2015. Few women responded, so it is hard to read much into their numbers, but it is notable that a majority of men self-identified as followers *outside* the home:

      Female - Prefer to Follow 2
      Female - Prefer to Lead 5
      Male - Prefer to Follow 48
      Male - Prefer to Lead 36

      To be clear, I am not suggesting that I see something wrong with men who prefer to follow at work also wanting to be led at home. What I am suggesting, however, is that those natural preferences and wiring have to be taken into account and that no one can say that it is equally easy for a hard-wired "leader" in daily life to submit as it is for a hard-wired "follower" and certainly not that the naturally-inclined follower respects his wife more. If anything, I would submit that the natural Alpha may be offering his wife more in terms of showing respect because is is something that he finds very hard to do, while for natural subs it is what they want to do anyway.

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    4. Sorry, I garbled the Machiavelli quote, in a way that makes no sense. The actual quote was, "He who wishes to BE OBEYED must first know how to command."

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  14. I find Anna's "rant" to be excellent. Her point about lame excuses not working on the job makes absolute sense to me. It says: "sure you can keep commitments - if you feel you must."

    For me the "self-reporting" issue is a lot different than the "responding honestly" issue. So regarding what I said before, I still don't see how I could feel like I was in a DWC relationship if I did not respond to questions honestly.

    I'm not saying it's easy for me, or that a little coaxing doesn't help. But I do not expend energy "trying to get away with things". I get in trouble for valid reasons. Most often inadvertently.

    Coming forward with a self-report is a different kettle of fish for me and maybe another whole discussion.

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    1. Tomy, there seem to me to be a whole bunch of questionable assumptions in here. First, you are assuming that the men who aren't complying at home are, in fact, following all the rules slavishly at work. That may or may not be true. In my own case, not only is not true, but one of the things I get in trouble for is NOT always being very easy to deal with at work. And, as I said above, that can be looked at from two angles. First, am I a properly subordinate employee? Probably not. But, I don't believe in just taking the environment I am in and following a dumb rule just because it is a rule. Should I adjust my way of driving for change so it is a little less upsetting to folks above me? Probably, but in the end the performance of the group is better because I don't just mindlessly follow rules just because they were handed down from above. Second, and this is directly related to my comments to Anna, above, the people above me are not without tools to enforce their will if they want to. So, the question becomes, if they aren't using them or using them effectively, does that mean I am bad team member or they are bad leaders? Or, is it a combination of both? Or, is "bad" even the right lens to be looking through? Maybe it's more about people growing into roles? I have seen mediocre managers become really good over time, and I have seen problematic employees really grow and stretch. Interestingly, most of the better employees I've had began as very headstrong and hard to manage. On the other hand, most of those who just slavishly did what I said because I outranked them in the org chart haven't accomplished much over time or added any real value.

      I still don't see any difference between self-reporting and responding, other than one has an active questioner and one doesn't.

      Finally, and most directly related to Anna's comments, you have been in a DD relationship for a lot of years and been spanked many, many times, right? So, does that mean you aren't in a "real" DD or DWC relationship, since you didn't just instantly comply and thereby avoid several years' worth of disciplinary spankings? Even if "inadvertent," by the logic you are implyting, doesn't that mean either (a) you aren't trying very hard; or (b) she isn't getting your attention for some reason?

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    2. Big sigh. I don't have the analytical stamina to engage with all your thinking. But I regret if I seem judgemental. I just try to be helpful.

      I still think Anna's point makes perfect sense. Let me exchange the metaphor of complying on the job for stopping at red lights. Everyone can follow some rules.

      I too have managed many teams and have always supported different personality styles. I have developed and promoted both quiet compliers and active rebels forward in their careers. Developing people is my joy.

      Regarding my relationship. I do my absolute best to make her life a delight. I am not submissive-oriented. But I am service-oriented. There's more analytical opportunity :)

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    3. I fully admit, the one sure way to send me off on my own version of a rant is to suggest that someone isn't really practicing a DD relationship if they aren't fully compliant while suggesting that the woman is doing her part if she simply sets some rules and calls it a day. And, it may be that you and I will have a tendency to talk past each other on some of these things, because the service-oriented aspect of FLR is BY FAR by least favorite part, and I sometimes kick myself for going down the FLR road because the service part is what my wife seemed to gravitate toward the most

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    4. Dan
      I thought the point of a female led relationship is that you follow All the rules set up by her.Rather than debate you I will ask this question. What are the parts of a FLR that makes
      you stick with it if the service part is so unpleasant to you. Why do you pursue this?

      Anna

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    5. Hi Anna,

      I think the point is to try to follow all the rules and, if that fails, she takes action to force that compliance. That was my overall point. If you just look at is he complying, that's only half the equation. Because the logical next question in a DD-oriented relationship is, if he is offending repeatedly, what is she doing about that?

      I think there are probably a lot of different styles of mixes of FLRs. Keep in mind, I've only been going down this FLR path, as opposed to a much less pervasive DD-oriented power exchange, for about a year. So, to call it a work in progress is an understatement. For part of the answer to your question, see my answer to CrimsonKing, below. To flesh that out, I came into DD with the very explicit intention of encouraging more balance in our relationship and also in each of us as individuals. In both our relationship and in other aspects of our lives, I was too Alpha and she was too beta. DD was a way of switching that up. And, I'm not sure it is a coincidence that I discovered DD out of the blue at about the same time I discovered Zen and mindfulness, also kind of out of the blue. Both of them have, for me, revolve around being more balanced, being more accepting of things that are not within your control, being less driven by and hostage to your ego. I think it was Marisa who said just a few months ago that the entire issue for men is getting past their egos and becoming more open and authentic. I think that is dead-on right, and it's also why I react so negatively when people suggest that DD or FLR is, for headstrong men, something where you can just flip a lightswitch and suddenly become a compliant, subservient being. As for the service part, the reason I stick with it is two-fold. First, as I said in response to CrimsonKing, service and submission is a key part of a lot of spiritual practices that are aimed at taking the ego down a notch, and isn't that also the goal of DD? If it isn't unpleasant, then what is the point, at least in terms of growth and development? If you're just doing what comes natural to you anyway, that may be fine for you, but it's not what someone like me who wants to grow and develop is about. We grow by getting out of our comfort zone, not by doing whatever feels good. So, I stay in it to some extent precisely because it IS hard and unpleasant. Second, I do it because we did agree she was in charge and because if the DD and FLR thing is going to work, it has to meet her emotional needs as well as mine. So, if the service submission thing is what she gets the most out of, then I need to do that.

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    6. Dan
      I sense that this whole exercise is difficult and please understand sometimes i take on the role of devil's advocate or as Peter as called it,well never mind you get what i mean. I see more and more how important it is to talk about this like this. To ask the questions that sometimes make us uncomfortable. Know how much I respect and am grateful you have this blog.
      Anna

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    7. Ah, come on, you can't tease me like that. What does Peter call it? :-)

      That's why I call this blog a forum -- if I wanted to one-way microphone, I would just turn off the comments and spew. Though when I start mixing Zen and spanking and pop psychology all in one comment that runs on for the length of a page, it's probably a signal that it's time for me to go with some inane topic like "What's your favorite spanking instrument?

      Talking through things is always good. And, for better or worse, one of my goals for 2017 was to be a lot more "unfiltered." So, it's all good. And, you know (or you damn well better know), how much I appreciate and value your participation and contributions.

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    8. You spoke about Zen and mindfulness. That is wonderful to hear. As they say Down Under "Good on Ya Mate"

      Spirituality is a huge part of our life. I would not have even mentioned in this Blog. But since you shared about your practices, I am doing so. Maybe I am risking a treatise on why Zen is not spirituality?

      Not even sure why I brought it up.

      Anyway, you might enjoy this bit of irony... I have been sharing with my wife about the current "what to do when spanking does not change behavior" Blog conversation. It's been one of those "academic" conversations; safe and not really about me.

      Then I forgot and failed to do one of her major hot button items. It is a safety item for our home and I have no wiggle room on it.

      I already experienced her "doubling" the spanking about a month ago when I repeated it and today I will find out what she has in mind for a third time.

      As I lay in bed last night thinking about what's coming today. I asked myself if maybe I should refrain from having these "academic" discussions.with her." I wondered if I had somehow started the pot boiling in advance.

      An there is NO WAY I purposely or subconsciously set this up. (Yea, I know "subconscious" means I wouldn't know if some part of me did it with intention). But I'm sticking with NO WAY anyway. It kinda sucks - whatever is coming. I'm such an idiot.

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    9. "I'm such an idiot."

      Aren't we all? At least right before the spanking anyway. Y

      I admit I've never been quite comfortable with calling whatever it is I do a "spiritual" practice, but I've also never really come up with a better term for it. Even some teachers I've listened to who characterize their teachings as "non-dual" still seem to end up describing their practice as "spiritual." So, it's one of those things where the label seems to create more heat than light. Like DD, I see it as another form of "performance management." :-)

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    10. The thing that is generally referred to as "spirituality", that you refer to as "non-duality", and is a unity-with-everything experience for me.

      It came with the incarnation. No one taught any of it to me. I found it before High School on my own. Thanks to the public library.

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  15. Question for Dan: Do you think there'll be a time when you're effectively post-spanking? When you achieve your behavior goals and think, "Whew! Glad that's over."?
    Personally, I hope not - we need you here!
    CrimsonKing

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    1. That's a very fair question, and my most honest answer is, I don't know. We have had a fair number of commenters who have said that they have been in DD relationships for many years, and that over time they have gotten to a point where they might get only one or two or three a year. That seems to me to be fairly realistic in terms of where things could go. But, I'm one of those people who wants to continuously improve in many areas, so I'm not sure I would ever get to some point where I'd be able to say, "I'm fixed! Good job, Honey!" Now, that said, I don't know whether I will always have this compelling need for boundaries and having rules imposed that I feel pretty deeply from time to time. In my spare time, I do a fair amount of exploring various spiritual practices, many Zen-flavored, and I was doing mindfulness meditation years before that became the phenomenon that it is today. I have noticed that when I get the most balanced and accepting in that practice, the desire to be disciplined takes a noticeable drop. So, could there be a time when I just don't feel the need anymore? Possibly. But, whenever I have a hard time reconciling Zen goals with something "violent" like getting spanked, I recall that one means Japanese Zen masters used to keep their students focused during meditation was to -- wait for it -- hit them with a stick! Similarly, a lot of the practice focuses on breaking down ego and humbling the student, so there was lots of emphasis on doing menial chores, etc. Sounds a lot like service submission, doesn't it?

      And, even if I did achieve my goals, it doesn't necessarily mean I would stop blogging. You know what they say -- "Those who don't, teach." ;-)

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  16. I have a spanking fetish. Over time I may have played with calling it D.D. Or other things, but the fact is I love it, and get very turned on by the idea of my wife taking the effort to spank me. I expect that is the case with the majority of people on this forum. It is not necessarily a turn on while it is taking place of course, but the threat of punishment and the very real after marks are essential to my sexuality.

    We also are working on a FLR, and I have to very much agree with Anna's remarks with regards to submission. I adore my wife and would do anything that I could to make her life more pleasant and rewarding. My worst punishment by far is to really have her dress me down verbally for having truly upset her. We enjoy spanking for meanial infractions, wet towels on furniture, shoes left under the table or when she senses my need for correction.

    We have very regular maintenance spanking sessions, since I normally do what I can to do as I am told. These sessions can be quite severe, but are still sex play and very loving. These build a deep, connection between us and I want to serve her all that much more because of them.

    I do have a very rebellious nature and do slip up on occasion, so we have developed a number of methods of dealing with these infractions.

    If these are real life disagreements or problems, we talk it out like adults
    If i am pushing and testing her authority over things i have agreed to live by, then she will push back.
    Here are some ways that she might push back, in order of increasing severity..

    My Chastity cage stays on until I have corrected my behavior.
    I am spanked hard after having been ruined.
    My thighs are spanked until deeply marked. I am Tied up in diaper position while this happens.
    The very worst. My hands are clipped up and she covers my balls with Capsium cream. I am left to suffer for 10- 15 minutes. This is the nuclear option, it can happen anytime since it is quiet. I do not look forward to this in anyway.


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    1. Hi Rebop. Thank you for the insightful comments. I don't doubt that you are right that a majority of the men who visit this forum have some kind of spanking fetish, though I think it gets very hard to separate that out from some kind of deep need for accountability that somehow latches onto spanking as the most effective means of enforcing that accountability. Not saying that is, in fact, the case. I just don't know. Spanking outside of the disciplinary context really doesn't do much for me at all, but I do think I may be a minority on my own blog.

      Thank you for focusing on the issue of what a wife can do if spankings don't work, for example as in your case because you do have a spanking fetish and even hard spankings are, for you, basically sex play. One follow-up question: Do you feel the same way about the hard spankings after a ruined orgasm and the thing spankings, i.e. are those something you sexualize or do they serve as real punishment?

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  17. The context of the punnishment is very important to me. If I have really pissed my wife off, the spankng hurts me more. Not only because a ruinned orgasm intensifies the pain, but because I am truly interested in developing a wife led marriage. Our household runs much better when she is in charge, we are madly in love as it stands.

    As I said before, most of our spankings are a type of "sex play", they usually involve her edging me during the spanking and me giving her full pleasure with my mouth and hands. I can take much more of a beating when I am excited and she tends to go harder on me if she has just had an orgasm. The anticipation of a session and reviewing the bruise marks afterwards can keep me excited for many days. I would much prefer this type of excitement to having her mad at me. She doesn't like to correct me physically while she is upset and instead will generally just pull back from me all together. For me, this is far more painful then a few very intense moments under the full swing of her bath brush.

    I am not allowed many orgasms ( and I have come to prefer this denial) but we make love in some way nearly everyday.

    Thanks for all your hard work on this blog. I have lurked for a long time now.

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    1. Mine shares the same tendency to pull back altogether when she is mad, instead of taking the bull by the horns to deliver a really bad spanking. I can see how that can be disciplinary in situations where the man really likes getting spanked or where most of the spankings are a form of sex play. In my own relationship I really try to get her not to go there, because it is just too close to the behavior her own parents exhibited that she consciously does not want to model. Whenever her dad was being a dick, instead of dealing with it in some constructive way, she would pout and sulk and give him the silent treatment and deny him sex . . . basically all the passive-aggressive or silently aggressive crap that people who are not empowered engage in because they don't feel they have any other tools. The whole point of our DD relationship is she DOES have other tools, so on the those occasions when she has resorted to sulking or flouncing, it becomes a big issue that we talk through and get things back on course.

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    2. To be clear, when I say above "she would pout ..." the "she" is my MIL, not my wife.

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  18. Not happy. I'm going to live the subject of this thread for repeating the same dumb thing A THIRD time.

    Damn!

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    1. Wow! Your subconscious really is fucking with you. :-)

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    2. And she told me last night that I have to personally "remind her" this morning that I need a spanking. Arrgh!

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  19. Nice conversation here. I appreciated Dan's comments about Zen, balance in the relationship and Ego. I have experienced the exact same mind set over the course of my 3 month journey into DD/FLR. It's been a mostly a very cool experience. This week, however, my wife grew impatient with my pleas to continue after previous sessions because it was not enough. So, in this discipline session, my loving wife gave-up all of her own ideas of how much is enough and instead hit me as hard as she could from a standing position with a wooden paddle over and over. I was somewhat traumatized by the physical impacts. This time for us was the first that did not result in a good outcome. We felt separated and hurt, physically and emotionally. So, we agreed that she would never give-up herself for the sake of a session. Best regards and thank you for your blogging efforts. Sincerely, Bill

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    1. It's always a process. Your experience is one reason I advise (a) clear goals and (b) some structure at first. On the former, I can't tell from this comment or the one you posted last week whether you and your wife are clear on what it is you want out of this. You say she hit you hard with a wooden paddle over and over. For most people who really want to be disciplined, that IS a disciplinary spanking. It is supposed to hurt, *a lot.* So, have you and your wife had an honest conversation (including maybe with yourself) about whether that is, in fact, what you want? I'm not saying it's a bad thing if that is not what you want, but it doesn't seem based on your description that either of you have a clear picture in your mind about what it is you are shooting for. Of course, until you get a really hard disciplinary spanking, it's hard to know what you are signing up for, isn't it? Regarding the latter (structure), something we did early on was to assign a certain minimum numbers of swats to particular offenses. I had to self-report each week, including tallying up the number of swats. That took a lot of pressure off of her, because she didn't have to decide in the moment how many to give, but it also ensured the punishment really did fit the crime and if the tally got large because I have misbehaved that week, whose fault was that? I still remember the first such week, when the tally was 65 swats. That was *a lot* for us back then, and she had given spankings with half that number of swats that had been excruciating. But, we had both agreed on the number, and I could have avoided it by simply behaving myself.

      That is, by the way, another practical pointer. The man's butt definitely can take more over time. When we first started, 10 - 20 swats could leave me very sore and bruised. Now, 10x that may not leave many marks the next day.

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    2. This 'session' was scheduled and I filled it with confessions and requests for a redemptive spanking. She got tired of hearing that it's not enough, so she disengaged herself (emotional and mental) from the session. The problems came from setting expecting based on her being there. Without her, it was an empty, lonely, hurtful, and unsatisfing experience for both of us.

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    3. Sounds like the two of you have a lot to talk about. It does sound like at least part of the problem is keeping the conversation at a fairly abstract level, and maybe just pushing her faster than she is comfortable with right now. When people are coming at this cold (which both my wife and I were when we started), neither knows what to expect, and I'm sure it is very hard for a loving and emotionally nurturing wife to get comfortable giving a real disciplinary spanking, or a "redemptive" one as you characterize it (which I kind of like.) It's why concrete processes are helpful (and why I am more than a little frustrated that I didn't get many concrete comments on what was supposed to be a very concrete topic), because they take some of the decision making and self-doubt out of things until both parties get comfortable with the process. Having some really simple rule, like "For every drink over two it is 10 swats" or "showing disrespect is 20 swats and 10 minutes of corner time" can be both comforting and liberating, especially if it is progressive, starting with something she can easily handle emotionally and increasing as she gets increasingly comfortable.

      For some reason, this wasn't a big issue for my wife. She got comfortable pretty quickly with giving me a big number if that is what I had earned. Her struggle has been more with stepping into the "strict wife" demeanor and being more verbally tough and directive.

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    4. Thank you Dan. A lot being said here and I'm listening. For us, the number thing doesn't quite work because she can make 20 wreck me for 4 days or make me a little rosy. For us, the process has defied quantitative specifications

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    5. I understand how that could be an issue. Keep at it, and keep talking to each other.

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  20. All my offenses are repeats - I am punished for rudeness, disrespect, moodiness, playing with myself and reading inappropriate fiction. The benefit of being in a 'wife spanks husband' relationship are that those behaviours can be limited and 'rewarded'. Whilst I may enjoy the spanking fantasy, I do not particularly enjoy having my backside roasted, being made to undress and put myself into the prone position whilst I am lectured and forced to listen to my shortcomings, how they affect her and what is just about to happen to me.

    She almost never punishes when she is angry so there is a real 'adult' calmness about the sessions. I do repeat the offenses but less so than I used to and I know where the boundaries are. Yes, I still go into bad behaviours territory - I get angry, I am rude, I do all the things that I know are wrong but not anywhere near the levels that I would go to pre this spanking era.

    If I go too far, she just smiles at me coldly and says " Just carry on and when you're calmer we will deal with this" Those words, that look are at least as powerful as any punishment.

    Repeat offenses? All the time but they are definitely getting better and less serious as I know exactly where I will end up. TB

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    1. "If I go too far, she just smiles at me coldly and says " Just carry on and when you're calmer we will deal with this"

      Love that kind of control!

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  21. I really like Anna's comments about submission. Perhaps I didn't read Dan's response carefully enough, but I came away a little confused about the distinction between DD and D/s. I guess my marriage is based on a power exchange that centers on submission to my wife's authority. I am submissive. I have vowed to serve my Mistress as a 24/7 slave, and I do my best to keep that vow. That doesn't mean that punishment is not necessary. I am beaten almost every day, and I spend a great deal of time begging for forgiveness and vowing to be a better servant. These transgressions are often very simple things, such as being five minutes late with a meal, or failing to pay close attention to her simple needs, such as a coffee refill or clearing her dinner plate away promptly. At the end of the day I kneel and remind her of any transgressions, and more often than not I get a quick caning or paddling. Nothing earth-shattering, but painful enough. Other times as I am doing my chores she beats me on the spot, quickly, efficiently, and we go on with our day.I like the feeling of subservience that these small beatings engenders in me. My point is that corporal punishment can be quite common even in a service-related relationship. The goal of my beatings is not the punishment itself, which may be Dan's main interest, but improving my subservience and attentiveness to my Mistress.

    How do wives deal with repeated bad behavior? Well, in my case the kinds of bad behavior that Anna described -- staying out with the guys, that sort of thing -- is no longer an issue with me, though it was early in our relationship. I admit that the canings did little to cure me of such things back then, but there came a moment when she took things to a new level. After I had a few brews after work yet again without permission, she not only caned my ass but introduced me to two things we had not used before -- a ball gag and a humbler. Those went on early on a Saturday morning and stayed on most of the day, a day filled with hourly ball whippings. I don't know if you've ever worn a gag for 12 hours with no food and no real break, but I assure you it is a lot worse than it sounds. And a few hours in a humbler is no fun at all, especially when your balls are whipped at the top of every hour. (That thankfully did not go on for 12 hours, but it was long enough, believe me.) There's nothing even slightly erotic about this. It's something that I go out of my way to avoid. It was a miserable day, and I've been through it a few times since, but not recently. In retrospect, I'm grateful that she does this on occasion because it helps me be a better slave, but when it is actually happening I do not feel that way at all. FRANKB

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  22. As far as my wife is concerned, life is supposed to be simple for her; one of my major tasks as a submissive husband is to keep it that way. A mistake or transgression on my part, made for the first time, will invite some sort of discipline, depending on how much it annoys her. It could be severe or merely a short, painful reminder, but it will be done because she believes that improvement is most likely to be brought about through demonstration and correction.

    Woe betide me, however, if I make the same error, oversight or slip of the tongue twice. For my wife, it's two strikes and you're out. As a minimum starting point, I am grounded until further notice. No leaving the house at all, no beers with the boys, no football games, no respite from chores. Depending on the offence, I can also expect to lose computer privileges, sleep on the floor rather than in the marital bed and anything else that strikes her as likely to inconvenience me. On very rare occasions (two so far in all our time together), she has considered it necessary to replace her favoured flogger with the rattan cane, which is used until she sees the response that she is looking for.
    I am pleased to report that I have not infringed in one particular way on a third occasion. It's just not worth it...

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    1. Thanks, Anonymous. "Two strikes and you're out." Sounds like she has figured out how to make that stick.

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  23. I don't think I could put up with repeated misbehaving or rule-breaking, especially if it was for the same thing every time. It only proves that my chosen method of disciplining isn't working. The last time Shilo did something that was worthy of actual punishment (and he will admit to it) was about 2 years ago. This isn't to say that I don't give him real (hard) spankings when I want to, or am able to, it just means that he follows my rules and is obedient. I'm a Sadist. I enjoy spanking him hard and watching his bottom and thighs and sometimes other places turn color and occasionally bruise.I'd rather enjoy myself and be happy with him, than be disappointed in his behavior and punish him. This just means I've done my job and both of us reap the benefits.

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