Saturday, January 7, 2017

The Forum - Vol. 188 - Humiliation & Humbling

"Flaws would not only bring death but, far worse, humiliation." - William Goldman, The Princess Bride

Hi all.  Welcome back to The Forum - Disciplined Hubbies & Disciplinary Wives.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are in, or would like to be in, Domestic Discipline or Female Led relationships.

I hope you all had a great week.  Mine was a stumble right out of the gate.  I was pretty proud of myself on New Years Eve, having one drink at dinner then going to bed.  Of course, I have always been prone to see that particular evening as Amateur Night, and this isn't the first time I've decided to let the world get bombed while I get a good night's sleep.  But, still, I was reveling in my accomplishment and patting myself on the back right through most of New Years Day.  Then, I met a business contact for "a drink" and to watch a game.  As usual one led to another, and one day into the New Year I had violated my pledge to moderate.  But, if you are going to stumble, do it early, right?  Well, that was the theory.  I was good the rest of the week.  Then, as I was leaving work yesterday, there was a mixer of sorts going on at the office, and I had a beer, which became three, then a couple at dinner with the family, then a nightcap at home while watching a movie.  And, this came on top of a pretty serious self-created problem at work -- sort of an insubordination issue, but more complex than that.  By the end of the week it had sorted itself out for the most part, but only after hours and hours of time spent trying to fix a situation that my poor judgment had no small part in creating.  I think part of the underlying problem is work got off to a bit of a slow start this week, which is always when I am most prone to "acting out."  Idle hands are the devil's workshop . . .

Now, why go into all this detail?  Because I have decided to add a bit of leverage to my efforts at behavior modification in the form of public humiliation by being a lot more honest and open about my problem behaviors and also about the impact they have or the consequences that result.  To some extent, my wife put me on this track a few weeks ago.  I had lost my temper about something and gone off on something at work, including excoriating someone in a voicemail for some behavior that I probably misinterpreted.  Now, I'm not sure I would have done it were it not for the fact that this person is, in fact, kind of a prick and has a well-earned reputation for being one.   But, that led to a chain of somewhat opposing though complementary consequences.  First, the history and context probably did make me more inclined to interpret something he said in the worst possible light, thereby leading to me responding with a very nasty tirade that may not actually have been warranted.  Second, when I informed my wife about it, she blew her top because she is tired of these work-related temper incidents.  Since spankings have not been doing the job on this issue, she decided to crank things up a bit, forcing me to . . . apologize!  Worse, she told me that it had to be face-to-face or over the phone.  No email or other more distancing and insulating form of communication.  So, I spent the better part of the next day hemming and hawing and finding every excuse in the world to do something other than deliver that apology.  I finally called him near the end of the day and apologized, explaining that I probably misinterpreted what he said.  Thankfully, he didn't make me squirm too much, though it was still humiliating, particularly because in the context of the overall relationship he really is a jerk and I'm not the only one who feels that way.  Apologizing is hard enough, but having to do it to someone you genuinely dislike . . . very humbling.

Which brings us to this week's topic.  Does public humiliation or shaming play any role in your DD or FLR relationship?  Does your HoH or Disciplinarian use non-spanking methods to force you to take responsibility for your actions, particularly in some way that involves airing that bad behavior in public or acknowledging responsibility in some especially humbling way? This could conceivably involve letting others know that you have been or will be spanked or punished for something you did, but I want to broaden it to other forms of humbling and humiliation that serve as a punishment or a means of forcing those of us who misbehave to take real responsibility or ownership for our bad acts.

I hope you have a great week.  If you are new to this forum, please take a moment to stop by the Guestbook (tab above) and tell us a little about yourself and your DD or FLR lifestyle or aspirations.  Also, we have a couple of pending polls.  Please take a couple of seconds to vote.

Dan


39 comments:

  1. My wife now carries a hairbrush in her purse. She pulled it out at grocery store and asked if we needed another " discussion ". Most people looked away. A few smiled and the ladies always seemed to have something to say. Embarrassing as hell. She's also given two maintenance spankings. They weren't horrible but memorable enough. We leave for Florida Tuesday. She said she will be giving a long preventative spanking on Monday as she doesn't want any reoccurrence like in Hawaii. This will be new and my nerves are killing me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks, JR. Since discovering DD, I am always pretty suspicious when I see a purse with a big hairbrush!

      Delete
    2. Hi Dan. Well it's Monday and true to her word Dev gave the " preventative " spanking. She called me to the kitchen where she was waiting with her paddle. She wasn't angry but in discipline mode. She said I knew what this about and placed over her knee. Pants came down and immediately the paddling began. She used a heart shaped 5/8 thick wooden paddle. The first swat literally took my breath away ! I don't know how long it lasted but was by far the hardest one she's ever given. She said if we had any issues on the trip the next session would make this one look mild. Now I'm the one who will say " be careful of what you ask for. ".

      Delete
    3. Thanks, Jr. Will be interesting to see how the preventative approach works over time

      Delete
  2. Dan,

    I could not be more impressed with the level of guidance your wife is giving you. Requiring that apology was some tough love and thoughtful wisdom.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Basically she spotted your little "Inner Brat" when he surfaced, grabbed him by the ear, and made him do the right thing.

    ReplyDelete
  4. In a previous work where I was manager and had subordinates, all women, I got into a bad habit of yelling at them and then apologizing and it happened all too frequently and the apologies were meaningless. I realize now that the cure for this abhorrent behavior would have been regular spankings from my wife, had she known.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks, Baxter. This is a good reminder that the punishment has to be fit both the crime and offender. Sounds like it is easy for to apologize but harder to take a spanking. For me, apologizing isn't easy, particularly to a peer or someone up the chain. Far, far worse than taking a spanking.

      Delete
    2. Dan, I agree. Apologizing is hard and something that is not easily done, but needs to be done. If you don't apologize, the issue will remain forefront in your mind. If you do apologize, the issue becomes less and you get a 'cleansing' from doing it. What I mean is that if you really apologize in a heartfelt manner and mindset, then you feel better about it later. I have apologized for things and/or actions and it is humbling, that is for sure and you hope over time that the person you apologized to will accept it and let bygones be bygones. Not always the case.

      Delete
  5. Dan-
    I'm making these comments, not to be intrusive, but rather because (as you know) it's coming from a guy w a very similar work/social lifestyle which makes it SO hard.....Tsk Tsk on the drinking front during the first week of the year!!!! I get the self rationalization (I'm awesome at doing that too!) but...."one day into the New Year I had violated my pledge to moderate. But, if you are going to stumble, do it early, right?". Have you shared that assessment with your wife? Why am I guessing she might look at it little differently....LOL. Sounds like might merit an OTK "discussion" about weather you're actually going to treat it like an actual PLEDGE and then be required to treat it as one.

    Of course I appreciate it's none of "our" biz but I have to admit, and I wonder if I'm going the only one wondering more about (in general terms of course) your insubordination behaviour at work!!!! When it comes to work, insubordination as well as using yelling as a form of communication with co-workers can end up having real world consequences. Too bad your wife couldn't have you make the apology call from home on speaker! That way she could have been quietly standing there with paddle in hand listening to it!!!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Darren. The comment about stumbling early was intended to be more than a little tongue-in-cheek, especially in conjunction with the next sentence that makes it clear that it happened again in short order. In general, I actually do believe that if you are going to screw up, do it early and then move on. In this case, I stumbled early, and then obviously didn't learn much from the stumble and did it yet again just a few days later.

      As for the work situation, this one wasn't quite insubordination because of who it was directed to, and I realize my description of this is confusing. But, as I said, it's too complex to go into and also, because the situation is very particular, a bit too risky to whatever anonymity I want to preserve. But, notwithstanding that this particular incident wasn't really being "insubordinate" in terms of not following someone higher up the chain, it was kind of similar behavior. But, regardless, insubordination is now and has always been my defining character trait at work. Part of me just doesn't really recognize that anyone CAN tell me what to do at work. Some of it probably reflects the way I was raised. My father was one of the most authority-averse characters you've ever met, and I either picked up his lessons or am similarly wired. (But, I am not, btw, really a yeller. Particularly at my own subordinates. I can be very caustic and obstinate with superiors and peers, but I seldom yell at anyone, up or down the chain.) You are absolutely right that insubordination and other poor work behavior can have real-world consequences. Which is why I really do feel chastened by some of this week's events. But, in terms of whether insubordination and not being particularly respectful of authority are ALWAYS bad, I can't really get there. A few weeks ago, I used this quote to lead off a topic: “Every time you break the law you pay, and every time you obey the law you pay.” That quote reflects that there are consequences for not following rules but there are also consequences for being a rule-follower! i can make the case that I have gotten along much further in my career than I would have if I weren't brash and not particularly concerned about doing what other people, including "superiors", expect or what the rules require. On the other hand, I have no illusions about this and fully appreciate that my temperamental flares have also cost me.

      Delete
    2. Dan
      As a man who has risen in his profession by being brash I get what you are saying. I dole the word brash but Anna would be the first person to say the correct word is rude and at times ruthless. I also have a hard time turning that off when I get home. Not to long ago I was telling one of my boys something. He stared at me and then said " Dad, Im sorry you cant fire me so I guess you will have to adjust."
      Anna often says my payback will come very soon as the boys become teens. For me this is why I need Anna to draw lines and follow through handing out the consequences that men like you and I know we need.
      peter

      Delete
    3. Hey Peter. I suspected you would get where I am coming from on this one. I do think there is a difference between brash and rude, or at least there can be. I also am pretty good about directing my temper upward, and even those who have lectured me from time to time to tone it down have acknowledged I seldom if ever go after anyone who isn't at least at my same level in the organization. My challenge is almost all around engaging with the people above me in the org chart. I just don't really defer to someone just because they technically outrank me.

      Anna is probably right about teenagers and payback. Teenagers don't care about relative power -- they always want to know the "why." Why should they do what you want? Why is your way right? Now, isn't it kind of ironic that those of us who want Domestic Discipline sort of go from that state of always questioning authority to actively asking someone to discipline us for things that *they* see as a problem, whether we necessarily agree or not? And that while at work we may blow off possible consequences, in our home life we ask for consequences that are so severe that we have no choice but to give in to authority. I have wondered whether my problem at work is that I won't give in to anyone, or simply that no one has been tough enough to make me, so I don't.

      Delete
    4. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    5. Repost. I had to correct some spelling.

      If you worked at Intel they would love it. Their whole culture, as I recall it, encourages confrontation. But you need to have a logical set of reasoning. In other words, you don't have to be right all the time. But you do have to have thought out your point of view before you fight for it.

      Delete
    6. Yes, that sounds like a good match for me. I tend to get into confrontations with people who have very firm opinions but haven't really thought them through.

      Delete
    7. I did fine there. Grew up in N.Y.

      Delete
  6. This is Merry. My phone had an accident so I'm using Stitch's. I've discovered that Shilo is impossible to humiliate or embarrass, so I no longer even try to do it. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING causes him to feel that way Me? I'm easy to humiliate or embarrass, so it's a good thing I behave (LOL)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Shilo seems like kind of a hard guy to punish or discipline in any traditional way. He likes being spanked and is impossible to embarrass or humiliate. I am more like you -- very easy to embarrass.

      Delete
    2. Hey, Dan et al, long time. Ever since Merry's accident breaking her arm, I've slipped into lurking mode, reading without comment. But this kinda got my attention.
      True: I enjoy being spanked, and I am 'nearly' impossible to embarrass/humiliate. I don't flat out say IMpossible, because not EVERYthing has been tried, and I can still conjure up memories from high school that utterly shame me.
      I simply don't believe in 'punishment' or 'discipline' between consenting adults. For me, all the 'joy' in this, well, fetish, comes from a fantasy, such as having a strict aunt or mother-in-law or other maternal figure.
      I'm sure I could write a lot more on this subject, but I'm drawing blanks for now.

      Delete
  7. Both N. (my late wife) and J. always assumed that some degree of 'humiliation' (or submission) was inherent to any disciplinary spanking or whipping they administered, and that it added to the 'learning' process - in which perspective both of them (if the occasion called for it) were/are perfectly ready to do so with one of their female friends* being present - and even in 'semi-public' places such as the fitting room in a clothing store, the ladies restrooms in an airport (only once!) - or, most often, in a hotel room when we are traveling on vacation.

    L.

    * Not to mention B. (J's sister) who, as 'family', is also entitled to spank or whip me when we get together (as was most recently the case over the Christmas season!)

    ReplyDelete
  8. You're right that there may be some degree of humiliation involved in any real disciplinary spanking, which was one reason I was trying to be clear that the topic was really trying to focus on some added or different disciplinary element.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Yes, "humiliation" is inevitably involved when I spank L. before some of my friends (or in some places where we may be overheard) but that is only meant to reinforce the idea that he must behave - no matter when or where...

    J.

    ReplyDelete
  10. For me it is the look, cannot explain, don't know the mind of my wife or women, it is just that look. Trouble is other women if they see it, smile at me, I try and look away. Does not matter if we are on vacation or not, once back at home or the hotel room, I quickly feel that look. Going out to dinner afterwards is the worse, hard not to squirm without being noticed.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That is a good point -- there are also opportunities for post-spanking embarrassment.

      Delete
  11. Public embarrassment either as punishment or an incentive to behave is probably as powerful a tool a disciplinarian has in her arsenal but it needs to be used cautiously.( I am excluding those mainly private settings where a close friend or member of the family is asked to witness a punishment)My former girlfriend several times threatened to come to my place of business, take down my pants and spank me in my office. She never did but she was capable of doing it and the threat was always taken seriously. I posted recently about the time she took me to a sex toy shop looking for a strap she made clear to the clerk was to use on me.She also sometimes left phone messages threatening a spanking or ordering me to report for one. At least one of these was overheard by a third party. My wife is open with one close friend and her sister but I don't consider that really public. But she will sometimes pat or lightly slap my bottom in a grocery store or out walking.This is actually very powerful for us since "controlling my bum" is part of our ritual. But I doubt anyone else except a spanko would understand what is going on.I was once required to call her mother and apologize for bad behavior earlier that day at her home also telling her I had just been spanked for that behavior. ( actually I was given a choice between a second spanking and making the call) That admission to her felt very public because her mother is not terribly discreet within the family and I imagine that story made the rounds.
    Alan

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Alan, I think you may have addressed this in a prior comment but I don't remember the details: Did your mother-in-law know about the DD aspects of your relationship before you were required to call and tell her you had been spanked for bad behavior?

      Delete
    2. At the time I made the call I thought she didn't know. Later I found out she had known for some time.
      Alan

      Delete
  12. Dan
    I want to make the point that for a wife like me, who is raising two boys, who I want to have the
    experience of a Dad who is committed to them. When Peter goes for drinks after work, or comes
    home and then buries himself in the den working, I worry that the example he sets is what my sons
    will think is the way a dad participates. Skipping a boys soccer game on saturday cause he was
    hung over from an office gathering the nite before isnt ok.
    I dont want my boys to grow up bickering with family (i.e. a BIL ) Snide comments dont teach the boys
    to respect the person or even the family gathering. His presence alone for dinner isnt enough. He knows
    all of this. I do find discipline seems to remind him.
    Sorry if this comes off as a rant. It is something i feel so deeply about the lessons the boys seem to pick up at times.

    anna

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Anna. No rant taken. It is obviously true that kids pick up lots of lessons from what we do, not just what we say. It's never easy, and I think it is hard to predict in advance what lesson they will take from some of the things we do. My own father is one of the most hard-headed, anti-authoritarian people you will ever meet. He taught me a lot about standing up for yourself, not taking shit from anyone just because they think their position entitles them to it, and just basically not backing down out of fear or some elevated sense of decorum or respect for hierarchy. I'm glad I learned those lessons. On the other hand, I am someone who affirmatively asked my wife to discipline me when the kind of hardheadedness I learned from my dad crosses a line and gets me in trouble.

      I also wonder a lot about how living in a DD environment might impact kids, particularly girls. I can't imagine that it would not be empowering in the long-run for girls to see mom taking charge, even if it meant they knew about her taking him upstairs or downstairs for a paddling. I know that it is controversial and there are lots of opinions on this, but if I could do it all again, I would push my wife to be much more open about our dynamic.

      Delete
    2. Dan

      More and more I see that the discipline I need is the demands and limits on my behavior by my wife. I grew up with a workaholic dad, and seeing Anna's thoughts voiced above I see more
      and more , she wants our boys to grow up with a sense that there are others in the universe. I tend to be myopic less these days.

      Delete
    3. Hi Peter. Anna is right that we all need to be good examples for kids, and DD helps get our attention and makes us "feel" -- literally -- the impact of our actions on others. Where kids and work are concerned, it's always a tough balance. It's important that we be there for their games and activities, but it's also clear that their worlds don't fall apart if an occasional game is missed. I do have big problems with dads who are out playing golf instead of attending their kids' soccer games and similar self-centeredness. On the other hand, I don't beat myself up for missing some here and there. I saw far more than missed and spent many a boring, boring, boring afternoon watching games that were often about as interesting as watching the grass grow. I also feel that we ARE being good examples for our kids when we show them that success is usually a function of hard work. A few years ago, I had an older colleague who was financially set for retirement but who had a school-aged son as a result of second marriage to younger woman. I asked him at one point why he kept working, given that he clearly had the means to go do something else. He told me that he felt like it was very important that his son see him going to work every day even if he didn't have to at that point in his life. That really stuck with me. My personal goal has been for my kids to believe they come first when there is a legitimate choice between them and work, but that they also be critically aware that having a nice house in a good school district costs money, as do nice family vacations, good colleges, etc., and that the money to pay for those things comes at the cost of hard work including some late nights and weekends at the office or on the road. I definitely want my kids to think they come first, but my observation of the Millennials in our company leads me to think that few of them have suffered from lack of attention and positive reinforcement over the course of their very sheltered lives. Quite the opposite.

      I will now get off my soapbox.

      Delete
  13. Throughout history " public " punishment with its inherent humiliation has been used to discourage and punish behavior. Quite a bit of this has been public whippings or other varieties of corporal punishment. The fact that it was used so widely and long until very modern days suggests it was successful.But today it is simply not practical and potentially traumatic as well as career threatening. When I decide to spank Jay I want to teach him a lesson not destroy his life and so public punishment is simply not an option. But something I think of more and more is quasi public discipline where he is spanked in front of one ( or more) of my trusted friends, Even better because I know he fears it, I could spank him in front of another male or couple. Obviously I haven't done this yet and I may never do it. But I think its the closest thing available to administering public discipline and gaining the benefits of that.I would not have considered this two or three year ago but we are now at a point where I am weary of punishing him repeatedly for the same behavior.I know especially if I spank him in front of another male or couple ( no couple now is available but a male is),Jay would do anything in his power to avoid a repeat. I am not suggesting anyone else try this and it is risky which is probably why I have not already used it. But sooner or later a wife gets tired of revisiting the same issues ( I hear some of this echoed in Anna's remarks above). I am not going to divorce him while spanking still works but I am going to find a way to beat his ass that lasts a long long time
    Marissa

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Marissa. It's interesting that you bring up the history of public corporal punishment. A few weeks ago I was trying to find a particular quote from Mark Twain about corporal punishment, and most of what I found on the 'Net, including movie clips, was about Tom Sawyer getting caned in front of the whole class at school. My own memories of corporal punishment in school is of it always being conducted in private, usually in the principal's office. But, of course, even then other students usually knew it happened or was going to happen. It shows how much sensitivities about this have changed over time. I also do think that some under estimate the career threat involved in "going public" where certain careers are concerned and in certain areas of the country. But, being spanked in front of another male would certainly get MY attention. I have even thought about how I would react if she ever commanded me to TAKE a spanking from another male. I don't see any chance of that happening in reality, but just thinking about it makes my heart jump into my throat.

      Delete
  14. Hello Dan
    All of you naughty boys seem to fear another male finding out how naughty you are and how your wife deals with you.I understand all the problems with any sort of public punishment. But I believe most of you would benefit from being spanked in front of a male witness or even better another couple. You would be acknowledging publicly and without reservation that you are under your wife's control and authority. I know Jay wants that but also fights against it. Maybe a public spanking would take him to where he needs to go
    Marisa

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Marisa. Believe me, I agree one should never underestimate the extent men will go to avoid being humbled in front of other men. Or, really, in front of anyone, and you are right to explore ways to leverage that powerful male ego. I was actually thinking this morning about this in the context of concerns about whether kids of a certain age should know that dad gets spanked by mom. It occurred to me that if the couple's dynamic really is about DD, as opposed to something more sexually centered, then if the man and woman have agreed on the rules he could avoid the kids finding out by simply not breaking the rules. If he does and gets spanked for it and the kids hear it happening, seems like his own damn fault, right?

      I actually don't know whether another couple seeing it would be more or less threatening to the male ego, as opposed to just another male witnessing it. My initial reaction was that having a female there might actually detract from the embarrassment, particularly for men for whom the spanking is a fetish, but I haven't really thought it through.

      Delete
  15. Yes, i'd much rather have Wife's friend know than another male. My Wife only sometimes threatens (or carries through) with embarrassing things. One She does is threatening -- and doing -- opening the bedroom window for one of my spankings. I never know if the neighbor might be outside or not (rarely is, but not knowing is a killer). She also did this at beach, opening window at a hotel room.
    Yes, at stores she's sometimes said things like watch out, you're going to get punished when we get home, and i just look around so fast to see how people react, and somehow look down at the same time. But people take it as a joke, i think (except one waitress...). The thing with friends is letting out little things -- not spankings -- but that i'd cleaned the house well, or that i'd put the nailpolish on her toes. She'll say that to couples as we get ready to go out, rarely (thankfully). i've gotten some weird looks from the guy, and women usually are giddy to hear that... it's embarrassing, and i'll do things to try to stop Her from telling them. Bob

    ReplyDelete

Your comment will posted if/when approved by the moderator. This blog is a curated resource for those genuinely and positively interested in DD and FLR lifestyles. Comments that are rude, uncivil, inconsistent with the blog's theme or off-topic may not be posted or may be removed.