Saturday, August 6, 2016

The Forum - Vol. 169 - Contracts


Women rule men's lives - every decision a man makes is based on a woman. Jessica Stroup
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jessicastr649961.html
 Injustice is relatively easy to bear; it is justice that hurts. ~H.L. Mencken

Hello all. Welcome back to The Forum - Disciplined Husbands & Disciplinary Wives. I hope you all had a great week.

For reasons I won't go into in detail, the role consent plays in DD and FLR relationships was on my my mind again this week.  It began with an entry on the Guestbook from someone who suggested an FLR relationship had been imposed on them, and I tried to probe what that actually meant.  I can't say I ever felt that reassured that I understood whether the situation involved real non-consent, or professing non-consent as part of the mystique of the relationship or just not taking responsiblity for choices made.  I can't say I really got to the bottom of it, and I would just reiterate a couple of points. First, this is not a Master/slave blog.  I don't have any problem with that lifestyle, but it's not what this blog is about.  So, even if you are in a consensual Master/slave relationship, there may be better places for you to explore that than here.  Something that has really been hitting home for me lately where this little extracurricular pursuit of mine is concerned is, you can't be everything to everyone.  For every Master/slave comment or post I allow on the blog, I scare off someone in a more conventionally DD or FLR-oriented relationship, and those are the relationships this blog was meant to focus on, particularly since there are plenty of outlets for those with Master/slave and other similar bents.  

Second, it hit home for me again just how nuanced and problematic this whole consent issue can be.  While I think (hope) we all agree that consent to being spanked for discipline is necessary on some level, there are a lot of nuances.   Is the consent only to the overall DD relationship?  Or, must it be to each individual spanking?  For some people, is there an element of wanting it to at least seem non-consensual, even if in the bigger picture of the overall relationship, they really want itThere isn't a clearly right answer here, and where I really started noticing the paradox was when I went back to the Disciplinary Wives Club website and tallied up how many of the stories involved the woman imposing the disciplinary relationship to one degree or another.  It was pretty clear the seeming non-consent has some kind of attraction, given that website has launched many DD marriages.  But, of course, in "real life" we know that express consent often isn't even really an issue, because many--and based on the polling we have done, probably most--of these relationships begin with the husband asking the wife to take up the paddle.

But, that is all for another today,  as I don't want to take us down another vigorous debate on things like consensual non-consent, though I do find the whole thing fascinating and perplexing.  Instead, this week I would like to address a much narrower issue that only partially relates to consent.


Formal contracts or written agreements and other means of documenting the terms and conditions of the disiciplinary side of the relationship.  How many of our DD and FLR couples have gone about documenting the rules of their relationship in some formal way?  And not just the consent, but the overall terms of the DD relationship.


Who is in charge?  What constitutes a spankable offense? Implements? Minimum/maximum number of swats?  All the way to legalistic expressions of consent, liability waivers, confidentiality clauses, etc.  There could be a lot of ground covered by such a contract. It also potentially addresses some of the complexity around consent, because it at least provides some documentation that the consent actually happened, that both parties went into it with their eyes open, etc.
So, that is this week's topic.  Have you documented your DD or FLR relationship in the form of some kind of written contract or agreement? If so, did you do it before the spankings began, or did it come later in the relationship?  What significant terms does it cover?  How did you go about putting it together?  Did you start from scratch, or find a template somewhere?  Was there a signing ceremony or meeting?  And, do you think such agreements are a good idea?
I will lead off by saying we do not have such an agreement.  When we first started out, we did come up with a list of offenses, to which each was assigned a minimum number of swats.  But, it really was designed to help us both take it seriously and to make sure she didn't let me off too easy as we were just getting used to her having the authority to spank and trying to figure out things like "how hard is hard."  It was never really structured as a contract or agreement per se.  
Have a great week. As always, if you are new to the Forum, please drop by the Guestbook (tab above) and tell us a little about yourself.



 

49 comments:

  1. I think that a contract can enhance and solidify her authority. If it is stipulated in writing that she can use corporal punishment this would very much legitimize her authority.

    It would make him fully understand that she can impose rules, that these rules must obeyed and that there will be consequences for disobedience. A contract would make it clear that both parties understand that she has the power to discipline him.

    Looking at a contract in this way the contract itself would hold as much power and significance as the implement of discipline. I think that expressing her right to punish in writing would be very powerful.

    I_ObeyHer
    (my FetLife name)

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    1. I tend to agree, even though we have not used one.

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  2. For us, there was a very big difference betweenhour BDSM contract and our DD agreement. BDSM had more to do with general behavior, and DD was more specific on my expectations of him as a husband and household duties. It's far more personal and personalized. My expectations of him in a vanilla setting was covered in the DD agreement. It stated what he could be punished for and the implements I could use, and it includes maintenance spankings, which is very different from our BDSM practices. I'm quite fond of agreements or contracts that are written simply because it gives both parties an idea of what is expected of them. Just because I'm the spanker and not the spankee doesn't mean that I should not have expectations and responsibilities for myself. The DD required consent on both our sides, especially since it was originally Shilo's idea. Since I'm looking at at least 3 months of inability to do anything with my right hand or arm my reentry into spanking is going to be a long time . Please excuse any grammatical errors as I am using speak to text.

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  3. Joe2 here,

    My wife and I have a written agreement, but not for the reason stated in this week's topic. I don't know if I bruise easily or if I have a high tolerance for pain, but I almost always have purple bruises after a spanking. My wife is really concerned that if I am in an accident, my bruises will be discovered and there will be an investigation for spousal abuse. So I wrote a simple one page letter that explains our agreement and why. We both signed it in-front of a witness that knows us both. Three copies were made (one for each that signed it) and the original is in a safe place. My wife and I keep our copies in our wallets.

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    1. Thanks, Joe2. While a pity such things are necessary, I can understand how that can be for both your protection and hers

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    2. Joe2, just keep in mind that depending on where you live and how aggressive a well-meaning person wishes to be, such a contract, whether witnessed, notarized, or etched in stone will not absolve a person from charges of abuse. Many States' laws say that 'you cannot "consent" to an illegal act' and if the person sees the damage as the consequence of 'assault' a contract will mean nothing. However, it could be helpful to a reasonable person who sees it and just recognizes the issue as consensual rough sex.

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    3. True enough on the consent issue in some states, but it may make it way less likely that something would ever be prosecuted in the first place. And new laws get made all the time via decisions by judges, some of whom would look at that say that new exception needs to be recognized. On the civil front, whether or not it provides a formal defense it very likely would cause a jury to see a claim against the alleged abuser as complete BS.

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    4. Legally-speaking.....it's a weird area. But there is probably a huge advantage in the dynamic being F/M. Have a woman show up with those same bruises and I don't think a contract is going to help the husband out very much.

      Also, I wanted to bemusedly point out that the cartoon of the "counselor" is funny but totally voids the contract. You don't have a contract if either party signs under duress.

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    5. This is Joe2,

      To Kdpierre: Rough sex? I'm good with that, or as an uncle used to say, "That's the ticket." Ha, ha. "Honey, I'm really stressed. Can we have some rough sex tonight?" Well, if the kids inadvertently overhear us talking, they'll purposely ignore any noise they hear later. --- I can't stop giggling.

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    6. OK, if you find that funny, then just how do you think a vanilla person would categorize DD? To them it's going to either be criminal abuse/assault or "kinky rough sex". Do you really think the average person is going to understand the complexities of the DD dynamic?

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    7. Why would they necessarily put it in that "either/or" -- abuse/assault or rough sex? We have a couple of thousand people who visit here everyday to a blog that is pretty relationship oriented and that isn't focused on either abuse/assault or kinky/rough sex. Why wouldn't they be able to understand the "complexities" of the DD dynamic? I don't really see anything all that intellectually challenging about these dynamics.

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    8. KD is right. It's very intellectually challenging. None of this is intuitive. Concepts like "consensual non-consent" are facially illogical (and legal fallacies). I spent an hour and a half on the phone last night with a woman who practices DD in her relationship trying to get her to explain it to me in a way that did not sound coercive and abusive, and she is a nice woman whom I respect and like.

      The other factor is that it is a dynamic situation. The actual discipline as described in many posts sounds unboundaried and without any sort of limits other than the wife's whims. The DWC advocates bruising that lasts for days. No one talks about safety or how they tailor the discipline to ensure the safety of the recipient. It's all put in terms of "I'll stop when I feel you've had enough," the subtext being that the recipient's level of physical or emotional distress is irrelevant. That many not be the actual case (and presumably is not), but the posts come across that way.

      It's also a very dynamic situation. The discipline is rough enough that it is seriously feared, and in many cases there is pleading for it to stop that goes unheeded. Yet, despite all that, the men desire it and the ULTIMATE outcome.

      That is indeed intellectually challenging.

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    9. I honestly don't see it as very hard to get one's mind around. I think it is hard to know what leads to the conflicting fear and desire, but that is because human motivation is almost always inherently complicated and involves all sorts of interplay between our personal histories and our basic wiring. But, that is very different than saying that corporal punishment is somehow a difficult concept to grasp in an adult setting. I am starting to believe that what is really going on with some of the confusion is that it is often coming from people who are coming from a more BDSM-oriented tradition, and their confusion is because they are used to this very ritualized BDSM world in which the spanking or "punishment" is part of a "scene," which makes it all about boundaries and rules and protections, while DD is coming at things from the exact opposite perspective. It is NOT SUPPPOSED TO be something that is within someone's comfort zone and is not meant to be part of a sex "scene." The whole point is going beyond boundaries not for a sexual purpose but as actual discipline. I think that people who used to a BDSM practice have a hard time grappling with DD because they see the absence of these BDSM rules and limits and, for lack of a better word, "ritual," and think the DD people are "doing it wrong." No, they just are not doing BDSM and aren't using spanking for the same purpose as it is used in a BDSM scene.

      Now, I'm not saying that the two don't overlap or that a couple might not be doing both. But, I think the confusion comes in when people start mixing and matching concepts from BDSM and FEMDOM and FLR and DD, when those are not all the same thing.

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    10. yes, well said .....................

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    11. But, Dan, we are talking about vanilla outsiders. Do you think they are going to understand the distinction between DD and BDSM, Femdom and FLR? I'm out to some "outsiders" and it took a LOT of explaining and I think some who even accept STILL don't fully understand it. And even if they do, they'd probably have an easier time with the sexual adventurousness of BDSM...........especially if the relationship is M/F. Some well-meaning vanilla sees bruises and the one who put those bruises there says...."oh but we have a discipline contract". You think that is going to fly? Again especially if the bruises are on a woman?

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    12. Yeah, I honestly do. I think a lot of the women who come to this blog and other blogs that are DD-oriented do see a difference between DD and BDSM and Femdom, to the point that I think they would stop coming here if I start including a lot of BDSM and Femdom content on here. I can obviously speak only to my own experience and the communications I've had with people in our small little community here. But, within that context, when I first broached the topic of DD with my wife, she was open to it (if skeptical and thinking it sounded a little weird) because it was a pretty easy concept to grasp: corporal punishment of her adult husband. No scenes. No play-acting. No complicated rules and rituals, and definitely no leather and chain and walking around in thigh-highs and leather bustiers. I do think the line between FLR and Femdom can be a little fuzzier, but in the end that's what it all is . . . line drawing. I think this chain is really confusing two concepts: understanding and accepting. Actually three: understanding, accepting, and adopting. I can understand something while rejecting in, and I can understand and accept while saying it's not for me.

      You're absolutely right that DD in the M/f context is probably MUCH harder for people to accept, and I will be candid in saying I struggled with this myself for a long time. Because of the size and physical power difference, and because of the eons of men dominating women in the home, workplace and church, there is now probably a knee-jerk reaction to associate M/F discipline with abuse, or at least with a *higher risk*of abuse. And, I'm not sure there is any harm in doing that, because we do want people to be on the outlook for abused people who need help. But, yeah, I do think people can come to understand it if the woman is open that this what she wants. As I said, I come from a pretty traditional background and I also may be abnormally attuned to domestic violence issues, so it took me a while to understand that women who are in DD relationships are often in them for *exactly* the same reasons I am. They aren't any more naturally "submissive" than I am. They are strong and maybe even dominating in some aspects of their life, but part of them wants to be subject to someone else's control, to be reined in and have boundaries imposed, and to pay some penance when they do something wrong. You were the guy who turned me on to some DD forums out there, where most of the participants are in M/f relationships, and that led me to things like the Taming of the Shrew blog, and interacting with folks in that dynamic got me past some of my own prejudices. They were very well-meaning prejudices, by the way, all bound up in being strongly against domestic violence and bullying. But, then, our most well meaning prejudices are the hardest to let go, aren't they?

      I think the jury is also kind of out on whether people are more accepting of spanking when presented as sexual adventurousness or corporal punishment. Honestly, I could see it depending a lot on what area of the country you are in. The phenomenon of 50 Shades of Grey is arguably a point on the side of people accepting sexual adventurousness, but then I remind myself that at bottom the plot of those books is about a twisted guy who gets into BDSM because he was abused and becomes an abuser, then the vanilla girl comes along and saves him from all that. In the end, it is a pretty anti-kink message, or at least is positive only as to really mild kink that might garner a PG-13 rating.

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    13. Anonymous, I think you may be seriously over-estimating the extent to which vanilla people see BDSM as "less threatening" and "safer" or somehow more normal. I have had exchanges with several DD wives, or their husbands recounting their attitudes, who are just totally turned off by the whole BDSM and FEMDOM fantasy scene -- the leather, the ball gags, chains, etc. And,they see some of the acts themselves as way out there. For example, there is one BDSM blog I visit now and then, and a couple of weeks ago the topic, complete with pictures, was needle play. To each his own, but do you really think people struggle less with understanding needle play than with someone getting a spanking? I don't think so. I am also starting to think the consent issue may be one of those dividing lines that distinguishes BDSM from DD and maybe from FLR and Femdom. It's not that those latter aren't consensual relationships -- but they just don't obsess about constantly expressing it in the way some of the BDSM crowd seems to. And, contrary to your point, I think one reason the expression of consent is more central to BDSM is precisely because it does involve things that more vanilla people might struggle with, so evidencing consent to those things becomes more central. Also, I get that many struggle with the "consensual non-consent" concept, either in principle or just as a semantic problem, but I would suggest that the people who think that DD being less consensual-sounding makes it less attractive or harder to understand really mean less attractive or harder to understand for them. I think that anyone who thinks that the idea of being spanked against one's will is not attractive to some needs to go to the DWC website--which has inspired a generation of DD folks--and count the number of stories that involve either (a) a wife imposing the DD relationship; or (b) he requests it but then she gives him "more than he bargained for" and refuses to engage in it at the "play-acting" level.

      I recognize I'm kind of on a rant right now about the BDSM vs. DD thing, but it's because they are NOT the same thing, and it honestly gets kind of tiring having the BDSM folks question the motives or practices of those who are DD-oriented and not doing it as role-play or for a purely erotic purpose. They might note that at the very top of this blog there is now, and has always been, a line saying that I welcome my friends from the BDSM community, but it is NOT what I am doing or what this blog is about.

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    14. I agree with much of what you say, and obviously certain BDSM acts are way out there and horrifying to many. What I was really getting at is the difficulty of understanding the psychology and attractiveness to a truly vanilla person of something that is structured more as scenes and role plays as in BDSM with something that is real and without the same degree of explicit reaffirmation of consent. There is no doubt that many are attracted to the DD scenario. It's just that for the true outsider it may take a bit more of an intellectual leap because the underlying psychological anomaly the ifear of and desire for punishment seems to be more manifest in DD.

      For me for example, I like the look, feel, and context of DD (no leather, chains, etc.) way more than standard BDSM but prefer to use agreed upon limits and a safeword.


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    15. On some level, it is *all* a matter of personal preference. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the extent to which people who aren't in either lifestyle can understand them. It doesn't seem like a big leap to me that a couple adds DD to their regular vanilla relationship, such that pretty much everything stays the same other than an increased accountability on his part, reinforced by being spanked. Versus, dressing up in a variety of gear, negotiating and planning scenes like teacher-student, mommy and disobedient son, nurse-patient, etc., and various sexual activities that are outside "the norm." You add the two up, and it doesn't seem to me like DD is that big a stretch, while BDSM is more like Halloween that comes all year long. But, like I said, what we are basically talking about is personal preferences. And, to be clear, I don't have any problem wit the play-acting and sceninig element of BDSM. In fact, I think it can be a good thing for people to be able to explore their fantasies, trying on different personas, etc. And it is those things that, to some extent, drive the need for agreed upon limits, safewords, etc. Because it is a fantasy that is being explored, and fantasies can go too far if they aren't moderated. Where I get annoyed is when people insist that DD is a fantasy so we must import all the BDSM rules and regulations into it. And, I get particularly pissed when people insist that if there aren't negotiated limits in place in advance, it is somehow per se abusive, given that for some men the whole point is having their boundaries exceeded and having that "imposed."

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    17. "Boundaries" is probably the wrong term. "Limits" is closer, though that also has more than one connotation. While not nearly as elegant, "ability to take it" is probably the closest to what I mean. Or, "more than enough to truly punish." Your last paragraph is exactly what I mean, and part of why I am on a rant about some of the exchanges I've had with more BDSM-oriented folks lately. DD and FLR arise, BY DEFINITION, in relationships. Hence, the "domestic" in "domestic discipline" and the "relationship" in "Female Led . . ." Where there is an existing relationship in place, there may (or may not) be less need for the constant reaffirmations of consent, safe words, etc. It depends on the couple. Many of the comments I've exchanged with the people who insist you need all those things self-identify as part of the "BDSM community," and soon as you start talking about something you do in terms of a "community" you are probably starting to get into rules, and regulations and practices and, for lack of a better term, orthodoxy. And, one reason they need those is that the "scenes" and "munches" and such may involve people who don't know each other very well, if at all. (And, no, I am not saying that applies in all or even most cases, so please no irate comments that I am somehow casting aspersions on BDSM couples, when I'm not.) When people don't know each other, there is no established communication, no pre-existing knowledge of limits, etc. So, of course, there needs to be rules of the road, safety measures, etc.

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  4. I can understand everyone's view on this as they make perfect sense. We don't feel the need for a legal document Every spanking ever done was given with and out of love. We felt having the form would make it more like a real job. I just retired and don't want one. Lol.

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  5. Dan;
    I noticed you wrote about some topics, and then the question to the community is different topic. Early in the post you mention the “enforced Domestic Discipline and/or FLR, and the idea of consensual non-consent (covered well in a previous post). So, I will answer the question that you asked, but then I want to add my two cents for the other two topics. In all three topics, I believe, the underlying question is, “What is negotiated between the parties?.” I will try to answer that question for the relationship I have with my wife.

    Contract
    No contract. We are not in a domestic discipline relationship and so a contract is not needed for that issue and one does not exist. My wife is a strong intelligent woman, and we try hard for an egalitarian relationship, where we are each responsible to ourselves, to each other, to our relationship and to our family for the things that we are best capable of handling. It is not a FLR, but some of the characteristics that appear to me to define a FLR are probably present in our relationship, but again, there is no Domestic Discipline and there is no forced chastity. Although it is clear to me that subjects are negotiated, it may not be clear to an outsider observer. My wife and I have a deep understanding of each other and like many teams that have a long history, a little bit of communication between the two of us can have a lot of meaning to us, while an outsider would have no idea of what was communicated, and in some cases may not have known that there was any communication (for example, “that look”). Usually, we just do the things we need to do. At other times, we may have a short discussion, even possibly as short as a one sentence discussion, in which one of us explains to the other what we plan to do, what we did or our need for assistance from the other. Longer discussions and deeper negotiations do occur, but are most likely held in private, but not often now. No contract exists that covers the responsibility, the authority or the accountability of each of us. And for us, I believe one is not needed.

    An Enforced Domestic Discipline or Female Led Relationship (FLR)
    It is difficult to understand how a person (man or a woman) gets “forced” into a relationship. One of the dominant woman wrote on the topic in an earlier post. She mentioned that she and her husband fought with each other for a period of time at the beginning of their marriage, and that finally, he admitted, to her, his preference to be submissive and his need to receive discipline, and finally submitted to her (an excellent story by the way). After that, she took charge and implemented Domestic Discipline, which, she made clear, was only implemented after negotiations were completed between the two of them. If I remember correctly, she stated that at the beginning of the marriage, she felt she was required to accept the submissive role, but was never really satisfied in that role.

    Roles need to be negotiated in any relationship, and generally, re-negotiated on a periodic basis, especially in a marriage, as successful marriages are probably the longest relationship for any of us. One can always leave if they feel they are required to do something that they do not want to do. If they stay, one has to assume that the negotiations were in fact completed, and their choice to stay in the relationship indicated the success of those negotiations, even if the outcome of the negotiations was not requested, recommended, demanded or even preferred by the person currently recounting the history.

    No such relationship has been enforced on my wife by me, or on me by my wife.

    Continued...

    Jack

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  6. Dan;

    ... Continued

    Consensual Non-Consent
    I continue to believe that consent has to be explicitly given at the time of the original negotiations regarding the implementation of domestic discipline in the relationship, and needs to be given at the beginning of each session, even if the consent is only given implicitly (by submission or otherwise) at that time. Anything else is most probably, abuse. An article, “Fifty Shades of Nay” by Robert James King, Ph.D, posted on the Psychologytoday.com website at “https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hive-mind/201408/fifty-shades-nay” explains the difference between abuse and Sadomasochism well (the article begins discussing the book, “Fifty Shades of Grey”, but continues with a good discussion of BDSM and consent versus abuse).

    For my wife and I, we have negotiated that I might use a paddle, or my hand, but only in a erotic way. Neither my wife, nor I, administer real physical punishment to anyone. In my opinion, the power that the dominant welds in such a relationship comes, not from the unimpeded right to administer physical punishment, but from the fact that the submissive does not withdraw consent when the dominant makes the decision to administer the punishment. For me, that exchange of power is exciting, and often enthralling, and that is why physical punishment is erotic to me. Especially when that power is transferred to me from someone who has always delighted me sexually. Perhaps, one day, we might renegotiate and she will receive the power, and weld the paddle. We shall see.

    Dan, I am sorry I went off topic to the question, but I see more to this post than just the question you asked. Thanks for the blog. It is a lot of work for you, I know. But it is greatly appreciated.

    Jack

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    1. Hi Jack. I agree with a lot of this, though not that consent has to be expressly given every time, though you do indicate that you see submitting itself as being an indication of consent.I get why people doing BDSM (which was most definitely the nature of Fifty Shades of Grey) may feel the need for very detailed consent and ongoing confirmation of consent. It occurred to me after I wrote the post that one thing that distinguishes a lot of DD relationships is the DD arises AFTER the overall relationship is well-established. There isn't as much need for formalities, because the parties know each other well, trust each other, and have a basis for interpreting each other's reactions to things without all the formalities. I was thinking of this in terms of safe words, too. There were some horrified reactions when I said I didn't see a safe word as necessary and didn't have one, if only to deal with things like a medical issue or something. Well, here is an example. My wife sometimes spanks too high, so a misplaced swat gets close to my lower back. So, what do I do? I say, "Too high." And she corrects. The underlying communication is there, so we don't need all the formality around things like agreements and safe words. Now, in something that is more BDSM-ish, a safe word might be needed because the session is more of a "scene" and might involve the recipient verbally protesting, because that is part of the scene, so the safe word exists to indicate *real* non-consent. That just really isn't the dynamic of a DD session, which is supposed to be about correction and punishment.

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  7. I initiated our DD relationship because our marriage was on the rocks, and my behavior was a big part of it. My wife was quick to tell me I did need real discipline and she would be happy to provide it. I was a little surprised she liked the idea and we sat down and discussed those behaviors of mine that really irritated her. I suggested we need to put our agreement together in writing so we both knew the limits and power we would agree to and it would avoid misunderstandings. We both agreed to the rules I must obey, the instruments to be used (hairbrush, paddle, and strap), if the rule were somewhat ambiguous (e.g. being inconsiderate) she would have the power to decide that, that she would have total power on carrying out the spanking, but we agreed the spankings had to be harsh, or they would not accomplish the objective (correcting bad behavior) and it was her job to determine how hard and how long to make sure the discipline was effective, we agreed that all violations must be punished - no exceptions, we added a confidentiality agreement and a disclaimer of any liability for anything that happened as a result of our agreement. It didn't take long for my wife to take her responsibilities under the agreement seriously and it didn't take me long to learn I better follow the rules as not doing so was too painful to forget. We have added or modified rules over time, but still have that agreement and follow it. I'm happy to say we are both very happy, our marriage is great again, we are more in love again, and I am a much improved husband and the spankings that were weekly in the beginning, are just three or four a year now. Getting a well punished backside when I do screw up has been a deterrent for me. Try as I do, sometimes my temper gets in the way of my brain so I doubt I will ever be perfect, My wife likes her ability to correct me, and I think enjoys it to some degree, as before our agreement she was not able to take charge punishing me when I deserved it.

    Fred

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    1. Hi Fred. Good to hear from you again. Your comment possibly raises an interesting distinction I hadn't thought of between DD-oriented contracts or arrangements and contracts/agreements that might arise in more of a BDSM context. The BDSM agreement might very well have a lot of limits and things that are not OK, while an underlying tenet of a DD contract may very well be that each session needs to, first and foremost, be hard enough to be an effective punishment. So, one might be about "not too hard" while the other might be about "hard enough to get the job done."

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  8. We've a Code of Conduct rather than a contract that sets out what's expected and required of me and what I can expect in return. It's the rules for what we do if either of us think I've misbehaved through to what to do if we've people staying or away visiting or on holiday ourselves.
    She only uses the cane so it doesn't cover implements and there's no list of offenses and matching punishments because we can't list everything so she decides what is punishable and the punishment and her decision is final.
    We both own the Code and vote on changes to it with her having the casting vote. She owns the actual document and I keep it current. We review and update at least once a year but always in December when I print a fresh copy and we both sign it as one of our New Year's resolutions.

    Dave

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    1. Hi Dave. Signing it once a year as part of a resolution seems like a great idea.

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    2. Dan and Dave;

      I also like the formality of annual update to the code of conduct and the apparent ceremony of the annual signing, which may represent a re-commitment of each of you to the domestic discipline concept. This is an good example of the re-negotiation idea, which appears to happen when required and not less often than annually. Further, the re-commitment takes it one step further and adds, I think, an extra sense of dedication from each of you to each other and the relationship. Color me impressed.

      Jack

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  9. We don't have a written agreement. Years ago I asked her to spank me and in the beginning when I knew I messed up I asked for punishment. In time it evolved into more of a FLR. Now she decides when I need punishment or maintenance just to remind me that she is in charge. Like most we have several implements and she will pick the implement or implements to be used and how long the spanking will last. Both of us feel if your word is no good what good is a contract.
    archedone

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    1. Thanks archedone. Interesting point that a contract, in the end, is only as good as the personal commitment and integrity backing it up.

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  10. Dan
    Before we began DD both Peter and I were in marriage counseling for several months. Each of us had made a list of what sorts of behavior from the other partner were "deal breakers". After a few months passed it seemed I had been making an effort to make the changes needed and Peter had not. At that
    point I asked Peter to move out. He was devastated but left. After four days he came by the house while the boys were in school. He asked me to punish him with a paddle if necessary. I agreed and he moved back. The first thing we did was to make a list of five things I felt were necessary for us to stay together.
    To be frank most had to do with his behavior around our boys. We worked from that list. As I have said before Friday nites our boys go to my folks for an overnight. Friday became punishment night. It has remained that since. In the beginning it was every friday nite. Now I would say maybe once a month.
    In my mind we renew our agreement every friday. Dinner out and a long chat about our lives and how we
    feel. To be frank, his short temper is still the main cause. WE both agreed only I can choose how sever and how often. There have been bumps in the road but there has been growth and a mutual respect for each other. I have come to see his submission as an act of love and respect for me. That above all is what I find erotic about it.
    anna

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    1. Hi Anna. It's great you've had that ability to set aside a night for both connection and, if necessary, punishment. Nice tradition.

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  11. I've never commented on anything in the past as I pretty much lurk and look for advice/ideas.

    I proposed a more FLR/DD idea to my wife of quite a few years at the beginning of the year. There were some things I had been hiding and lying to her about and it was really starting to bother me. I proposed the idea of her punishing me for past infractions to clear the slate and for any transgressions in the future. I also wanted her to keep me on track on other goals I had set for myself and she was going to punish me weekly if I fell short in the progress department.

    It worked very briefly and she took to the punishment part really quickly. However since I was more knowledgeable (fantisized about it for years, read numerous blogs, etc) and she had no idea of the lifestyle I tried to control things for the bottom and lead her down a path. It ultimately didn't work as she didn't really have a stake in the game and felt like I was trying to control everything.

    Fast forward to 6 weeks ago, we started talking about it again and this time I came up with a contract rough draft. It was written using numerous excerpts I found online and tailored to fit our needs. We went over it together and made the changes she wanted to see.

    It only has a few basic "rules" and some goals that I'm still trying to work on. It doesn't state anything about punishment implements or lengths, just that they will happen and will continue until she is satisfied. I'm not to try and interfere or postpone them (I had on one major occasion)

    She has been much more in tune with things since we did an actual contract. I feel like she thinks this is hers to control now and not me trying to control it anymore. She now feels like she does have the "power" to tell me what she wants and I've given her the green light to punish me severely if she so desires. She now knows she can't go too far in that regard. I put that ki d of language in tgere because I have a pretty iron butt and it takes a great deal to push me to my limits.

    Anyway that's enough rambling for now. I hope this reads ok. It's hard to do from a phone.

    Bryan in Texas.

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    1. Hi Bryan. Great observations, and emphasizes my point that something that may distinguish a DD contract from others involving spanking is the express permission to punish as severely as required. I know what you mean about "iron butt" -- same here.

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  12. We have a 'contract' and a separate list of 'rules'. When we initiated things it was a symbol of our seriousness.............but now, after years of living this way, we hardly ever look at it. It's still there, but more of a cute reminder than anything else. Living and working through a DD establishes more of an understanding than any piece of paper.................which has no "legal" standing whatsoever.

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    1. We didn't have one, and after a decade of doing DD, it probably wouldn't do much for us either. Though, I could see it having a purpose early on, when some formality may keep the parties focused as they are trying to get the DD part of the relationship off the launch pad.

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  13. We do have a formal contract that has been in effect for about three months now. We felt it necessary to formalize our DWC relationship in order to keep us both on track. We found a template online that was based on the principles and teachings of the DWC and adopted that for our own use. The contract outlines each of our responsibilities and the behaviors for which I will be punished. We also incorporated weekly preventative spankings into the contract. The biggest advantage to the contract, in my opinion, is the monthly review, which is a great opportunity for a discussion of our relationship.

    Brent

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    1. That's great. Sounds like it really works for you.

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    2. Brent,

      The DWC reviews work wonders for us. We do them weekly and man things run really smoothly over all.

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  14. Dan
    Once Anna and I agreed on what the principal 5 reasons were for discipline the degree of discipline or the instruments were left to her. I recall when we started one of the things that seemed to be important to Anna was corner time after. We agreed the time length would be UNTIL... that is until she said enough.
    Another fact that came up soon after we began was a gentle warning that unless I thought before i acted or spoke there would be a rather long session come Friday. It works and to me as I saw her grow in power I grew in admiration of her as a partner. Our Fridays are often just a conversation to clear the air and then a dinner alone. It works for us.
    Peter

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    1. Hey Peter. Sounds like leaving everything to her discretion works pretty great for you both.

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  15. If you are going to use my artwork in your blog I would appreciate if you gave my blog credit or at least list it in your links.
    Glenmore

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    1. I'd be really happy to do that, if they were signed or had a blog link on them. I totally get people wanting to maintain control of their art work, but it makes it a little difficult for others to know HOW to attribute a given work when the author doesn't sign or put a link on them. Also very happy to just take them down.

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  16. Here is the link to my blog :
    http://glenmoretales.blogspot.ca/
    There is lots of FM artwork there . Feel free to use any of the artwork you wish but would appreciate mentioning my blog when you can or list the link to my blog on your site.

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  17. No contract-in a very happy marriage of 40 yrs---we just seem to know at the same time when a bare ass paddling has to settle things--It is not often--but no argument when it has to happen--When I got it coming I just want to get it done asap--and that's fine with her I just get it after a shower--no big ritual just bend over and hold my knees and get my butt paddled and it hurts but things are good and back to normal after no lingering anger or harsh feelings Since its just between the two of us no reason for any shame or embarrassment--I got it coming

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