Saturday, July 9, 2016

The Forum - Vol. 165 - Through the Generations

"You’re used to difficult women. To struggle. Perhaps you like it when they give you a bad time. Every treasure is guarded by dragons. That’s how you can tell it’s valuable.… ” -- Saul Bellow

Hi all.  Welcome, or welcome back, to The Forum - Disciplined Husbands & Disciplinary Wives.  Our weekly gathering of men and women to talk about and promote adult domestic discipline and FLR relationships.

I hope you all had a great week.  It was another grueling one for me.  I could really use some time off right now, but there's just no end in sight for the foreseeable future.  Of course, if I wasn't busy, I would be whining even more about that. 


We have talked from time to time about how to work DD around the presence of kids in the household, and we've shared ideas about how to mete out well-deserved discipline without the kids overhearing.

But, what about once they are grown?  Is the DD or FLR side of your relationship something that should be kept from them once they are off on their own?

We are often reluctant to share this part of our life with anyone.  But, particularly if it is something that you think helped your own marriage, should you share that with your adult kids so they can also get the benefits of it?  Those benefits could potentially apply to either a daughter who needs to take charge of her own ill-behaved husband, or maybe you are a realist parent faced with the proposition that your darling son (or daughter) could themselves profit a bit from being on the receiving end of the marital paddle or hairbrush. 

There are probably going to be a wide range of opinions on this one.  I am pretty firmly on the fence, though tilting a bit more toward being selectively open about it.  Holly's posts always get me thinking about this, though it's been on my mind lately for a variety of reasons.

One of Holly's observations last week was that while her husband has grown as a result of domestic discipline, so has she.  Those opportunities for mutual growth are one reason I believe in TTWD, and why I see it as being at its best when used to balance out the extremes.  Domineering or out of control men get taken down a peg and taught some hard lessons.  On the other end of the paddle, a wife who may have once felt powerless or timid may develop into a strong and capable leader.

So, isn't that something we would want for our adult kids as they move out into the world and experience their own inevitable marital and personal challenges? Even if we thought it was something that needed to be kept private while they were growing up, do those same concerns still apply later in life?

As I said, my own attitudes on this have evolved a lot over time.  I once just sort of assumed this is a private activity and should be kept that way.  But, I also believe that domestic discipline and, increasingly, being the man in a Female Led Relationship, is a core part of who I am and what I want to become.  Yet, concerns that kids could overhear a spanking, or see her in full "boss" mode have  been the #1 impediment over time to us deepening and broadening this aspect of our relationship. 

A few weeks ago, I put at the top of the post a quote I saw a few weeks ago that really stuck with me for  some reason.  Here is an abbreviated version:

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. 

Isn't that kind of of what our DD and FLR wives do when they hide that part of themselves because of concerns it will make someone, including our progeny, uncomfortable?  And ironically, if DD or FLR has really helped our own marriages, are  we doing our adult kids a disfavor by not sharing it with them?
I hope you all have a great week. As always, if you are new to our Forum, please stop by the Guestbook (see tab above) and tell us a little about yourself and your DD and FLR relationship or aspirations.

45 comments:

  1. Ah! Now this is something I can comment on! My kids (all adults)are completely aware of my polyamory, but, other than my oldest (age 32), who moved in a spare room in September last year, they have no idea of the BDSM/FLDD aspect.

    I was reluctant to tell him, because he's such a prude (other than being a serial cheater)but he had to know, mostly because there's the off chance he might walk in on us.(and he has)He considers Shilo to be "less of a man" because of it, but like my long-term Partner Stitch puts it, my oldest is clueless, and Stitch can barely handle one swat of the paddle or cane, so he knows Shilo is a strong masculine man.

    This isn't to say that I "hide" our activity from anyone, but I prefer discretion, and I will occasionally "joke" about it and I have also seriously discussed polyamory.

    What all my other kids will say about Shilo is that he is a Loving and Devoted husband, and that he makes me very happy, and that's what they care about the most. They may never know that it's the spanking aiding in it, but if they ask for our secret, I will gladly tell them.






















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    1. Of course you of all people would end up with a prude for a son. :-)

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  2. Dan,
    This is a tough one. I suspect many adult children have figured it out by the time they hit their 20's or so. For sure they have experienced the dynamics in the home . Even where a couple maintain " equality" there still is a strong sense that Mom is in control.Beyond that I would let nature take it own course and let it happen or not happen. If an adult child asked a direct question It should be answered honestly and a DD couple should know how they want to handle that. Beyond these generalities I think the chances of an adult child discovering ( or uncovering) DD are pretty good.Spanking after all today is very common with studies showing a quarter or more of the population have some interest in adult spanking I also mentioned the home dynamics and that matters. But I am convinced there are genetic influences on the predisposition to practice adult spanking. So they are your kids and they are going to travel some of the same developmental pathways you did. I am saying if you are a spanko there is a decent chance your son or daughter will be also.But I would let it work out naturally being available to talk to them if they initiate it. A blog I have seen you comment on ( Femdom 101) has lately been documenting how that developed for the blog's founder as her daughter eventually took control in her own marriage. ( and actually has introduced spanking into her relationship something I don't thing her mother has done. So my vote is sit back and let it happen if it is going to happen
    Alan

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    1. Hi Alan. I agree with your second sentence -- it is hard to believe that if disciplinary spankings have been going on for several years that it will go totally undiscovered by the kids, given their proclivity for finding out pretty much everything else. I honestly have no idea whether ours actually know. I don't think so, but I also wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the line one of them tells one of us (probably her) that they've known for years.

      A real FLR dynamic is, of course, harder to hide. And it is that part that I increasingly believe should not be hidden if it is part of the couple's dynamic. I think kids get "chain of command," and I doubt seeing mom in charge is going to degrade dad in their eyes, at least as long as the couple makes it clear that while dad answers to mom, he still outranks everyone but her.

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  3. There's a range of possibilities from denial, to secrecy, to partial openness, to full disclosure, to endorsement for a particular person, to advocacy for a particular person, and ultimately to proselytizing for all. When it comes to people and parenting each much match how far on this scale they'd be willing to venture based on their individual beliefs, situations, and skill levels.

    Some parents can't even effectively advise their own kids on a career path, let alone whether a DD relationship might be good for them. I have two biological kids and three step-kids. Each one is different and I have handled the "DD issue" differently with all of them.....except in terms of being open about it. That was our 'bare minimum'. At this point they all know enough to be able to ask and pursue more if they chose to. Some have, some haven't.

    I can't recommend what others should do. I only know what I am willing to do.

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  4. Intimate things should stay intimate. Mundane aspects can easily be shared. FLR can be as simple as who does the dishes. My spouse and step daughter will sit and watch big brother on TV while I do the dishes. Nothing is thought about the power exchange going on. Although my step daughter did joke that I must really like maids work since I always cleaned up. I asked my spouse about the comment later and she said it was a comment made with no prodding.

    To the people who say fine tell share or teach the next generation would there be an incestuous jump if afult daughter disciplined dad as a way to learn or as a way to see if she liked it?

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    1. There are two different definitions for "incestuous". The main one defines a situation where there are sexual relations occurring between family members. The second describes a situation where a closed and improper closeness alters something's effectiveness. So, I would say that second definition could occur in the hypothetical you mentioned, but unless the father copulated with his daughter after the spanking, you would not have the first definition.

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    2. Yeah, not quite getting the jump from "don't hide it" to incest and let the kid give the spankings. I think it also misses what I said about "chain of command"

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  5. Hello Dan, My adult children and some of my friends, did find out about our relationship, from my ex-wife during our divorce. None of them have ever mentioned it other than my best friends wife commented once that she spanks her boys, and it was an awkward moment. I'm sure it was explained to them that your Dad is kinky and wanted to be spanked, and not in the vein of a FLR and I used it to control your Dad. As I get older I care less what others think and if asked would tell our kids or friends about it, but it never has come up.

    John

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    1. John, out of curiosity, which would bother you more? Her explaining it as "Dad is kinky and wanted to be spanked" or "We were in an FLR and I wanted it to control your Dad"

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    2. Probably Dad is kinky and wanted to be spanked

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  6. This is such an individual thing, surely not one size fits all. First I guess is do the kids want to know, and that may be different for each one of them. Is the relationship just spanking for foreplay, or is it a full on slave thing? Is it truly a FLR that may not even involve corporal punishment. If the children notice that their parents seem to have a different dynamic than their friends parents then maybe a short explanation that we (the parents) just found that Mom taking the lead and being the dominant partner worked better for us. If spanking is part of that there is no need to mention it, unless I guess it is asked about. The one thing I would be very careful about is the children losing respect for their father. I guess the time to get open about it is if a daughter (or daughter in law) says she wishes her marriage was as great as Mom and Dad's. Or maybe a son says to his mother that he wishes his wife was more assertive with him as you (his mother) are with Dad. I guess I keep getting back to this is a case by case thing, but something that requires a great deal of thought and care. Number one is the children's feelings.

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    1. Totally agree. I do think the prospect of losing respect is a legitimate concern, yet for generations men were seen as the automatic head of the household, and I'm not sure that translated into the kids did not respect mom.

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  7. Just for the record, I think any ex-spouse, male or female who violates the intimacy of a DD relationship is repugnant. Everyone get hurt when a marriage breaks up but that's never a reason for " telling all" about a once loved partner or ceasing to be a caring human being. Shame on her.
    Alan

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    1. She was looking for any way to get even. I later found out she brought a paddle to the divorce hearing. She also invited our best friends which was the most embarrassing. Luckily the female judge didn't want to hear any of it.

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  8. Hi Dan. For us it is a VERY private matter. We have our daughter at home as she goes to college. Finding time to have her " discussions" is often times difficult. However , Deb and I talk frequently if other couples employed spanking as a useful tool we think there would be many more happy relationships and fewer separations.

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  9. My wife told both of our daughters in my presence just before the eldest was married. She was 24 and her sister 20. We had discussed telling them earlier entering college but it didn't work out. But this time my eldest asked us what was the secret to our happy marriage and my wife jumped on the opportunity to tell her what happened those times that " Daddy" was taken upstairs for a " family discussion" My eldest floored us by saying something like we know that already and is that all? A long discussion followed and both my wife and I were relieved of the fear they would be shocked or disappointed. I think both girls were proud of their parents for being cool enough to be a little kinky even though we made clear to them that discipline was involved. Today's kids are just so much more sophisticated today then we ever were. I would have been shocked if my mother had told us she spanked my dad but not today
    Bob

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    1. Hi Bob. I'm not surprised that they knew, and I'm sure it was a relief for you both.

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  10. My wife and I believe that the spankings she gives me should remain private. No exceptions - ever. But I do suspect that a desire to be spanked is at least partially genetic. I saw some evidence of this with my oldest daughter when she was a child, and I would not be surprised if she is willingly spanked by her husband, but I would not want to know about it. For it is none of my business. Doug

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    1. I can understand not wanting to know one way or another. You guys haven't convinced me of an genetic linkage, but what do I know? I think the problem with attributing to a "spanking" gene are twofold. First, family environments might be inherited just as much as our genes. So, perhaps a two generations share a desire for discipline because their family dynamics and adult relationships were similar to what they experienced as a child. Second, what if what drives us to discipline is our temperament and some people (the highly intense for example) are more prone to want to let go of control and submit. A lot of temperament clearly is genetically hard-wired, but that's not nearly as specific as having a genetic disposition toward spanking. But, what do I know? My view is it is all incredibly complicated.

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  11. We have two girls both in there twenty's now when they were younger living at home my wife would always let them no when I was going to get a spanking we have a older home and you could always hear the hairbrush or paddle but they never said a word about it !!

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    1. Do you think that had an impact on them or the quality of the relationship between you, one way or another?

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    2. No they were and are loving daughters !

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  12. Dear Anonymous (be sure to sign with your name like below):

    Wow, what was the mood of the household after you were punished - and did this change as the girls aged? Can you go into some details on one or more of your disciplinary sessions, particularly with regards to the girls? Do you know if the girls have any interest in domestic discipline?

    Carl H


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  13. I very seldom write, but I find your topics very interesting. I taught grade school for over 30 years and I have always been amazed at how much children pick up by observing. I think many of your children know a lot more about what is going on then you think.

    That being said I do not think children should be told unless they ask and then an age appropriate explanation should be give. Adult children if they ask should be given as much info as they ask for.

    I agree with one of the writers that this info should not be exposed during divorce, that was not the case with me and my X, she told her best girl friend from the start of FLR (at the time my wife started this their was no information on it and the term FLR had not been coined) and told everyone that cared to hear during the divorce. Her mother also knew but that happen by accident, she came into the house through the open garage door when I was being punished about three years after my wife start FLR

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    1. "I think many of your children know a lot more about what is going on then you think."

      Undoubtedly true.

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  14. Dan
    This is truly on very hot topic. Actually in my mind it is two. Our boys are preteens and discipline is something very much on our minds. I want boys who grow to be responsible men who respect their
    wives when the time comes. Although the boys aren't aware that I spank Peter, they have long ago
    learned our code words. In an effort to avoid bickering or being verbally abusive in front of the boys,
    we began using this code. If I was annoyed I would say " LETS HAVE THIS DISCUSSION ON FRIDAY
    WHEN WE GO TO DINNER " Or Peter might Say to me " CAN WE TALK ABOUT ALL OF THIS IN FRIDAY?"
    Our oldest boy who is just 12 quipped to Peter after I said that at dinner last week " WOW DAD GUESS
    YOU ARE GOING TO GET IT GOOD!" Does make me wonder what they really do know.
    Anna

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    1. Hi Anna. Yes, I will not be at all surprise if many of us learn, once our kids become adults, that they knew a lot more about this than we thought.

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  15. We have kids at home, so my wife and I have thought this out.

    1. You never know when your kids will ask the question, so be ready.
    2. Both parents have to be 100% comfortable with the answer to the given. If either of you are the slightest bit out of sink, it will cause an unnecessary rent in the fabric of your relationship.
    3. If you both can't agree to an answer, then the default answer is, "Do you really want to know about your parents' sex life?"

    Joe2

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    1. Thanks Joe2. An interesting question in relation to point 3 is, do people see domestic discipline as part of their "sex life"? And, if there was a discussion about it within the family, is that how it would be presented? For me, it wouldn't. It would be presented in terms of "who is in charge" or something about managing relationships -- not as part of the parents' sexual activities.

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  16. Dan
    My best buddy since 7th grade and I are still best buds. We became friends back then cause he and I were so much alike. In college we were both the wild ones with brains. Bot of us were and are career driven. The one big difference is that Anna and I just celebrated our 14th anniversary. Jeff is on his third marriage> his current wife was the first woman and not hot chick he married. That was 3 years ago. A few months ago he came to me in despair. His wife Jan wanted him to make several changes or to be fair to just grow up. He begged me to tell him how Anna and I had turned our marriage around, I told him to make Jan more than his bed partner.
    Long story short, after talking with Anna first, I told him to make Jan more than just a bed partner. Make her the head of their household and accept the punishments for rules broken. Slowly we began to have
    peace in our household. He ignored me but then one saturday morning after a punishment session with
    Anna the night before. I showed him the bruises. I will skip the bad jokes he made and will say that shortly after he and Jan went to our counselor. I know that Anna & Jan talk about it often as do Jeff and I but we never discuss the matter when the four of us are together. For us it is what is most comfortable. Two months ago Jeff and Jan told us they are having a child late this year.

    Sorry if I rambled this was hard to write, but for me an important step to take. I too am happier the way

    peter

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    1. Hi Peter. That's really great. It wasn't clear to me from your last paragraph whether Jeff and Jan actually are now using DD? In any event, that was incredibly ballsy of you to tell him about it to try to help him get his act together. Definitely the mark (so to speak) of a true friend.

      I have one friend who similarly has failed to grow up. He's on wife number one, but he's just always been kind of a half-assed husband. Self-absorbed. Spends more time at the bar with friends than with his wife, etc. She gets pissed but never actually does anything about it. Unfortunately, we don't have the kind of relationship with her that would allow for suggesting something like DD, and I don't think he would be open to it either.

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    2. Dan
      Was so nervous writing that .. they are using it .. and he is more an more feeling more at ease with it. It was a great act of freedom to the forum this. Made it more real to me.
      peter

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    3. That's really great, and I'm sure it helps for you to have someone "real" in your life to share this all with. Electronic friends are great, but not quite the same as being able to share over a real beer in real time . . .

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  17. A DWC relationship is essentially a private matter. And if you are anything like me, you don't exactly go around telling people about it. But having friends,other couples who also embrace the lifestyle has been extraordinary for us.

    There have been times when we had several such couples together and all I can tell you is that it is amazing. And some of the friendships have grown to be our absolute best in every way.

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    1. We haven't done that, but I take your word for it.

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  18. It takes a surprising short time for the men to get comfortable with one another. It's like a brotherhood in a way.

    There have been one or two occasions where the chemistry was not there. But if I were to make up a statistic to illustrate my point, I would say that 98% of the time when we met another F/m couple it was positive.

    There is such a relief and joy to be with others who really get your lifestyle.

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    1. I believe it, though it illustrates the point underlying an exchange Alan and I had a few posts back about the challenges in really keeping these relationships private. Ex-wives can blab. Or, wife tells a girlfriend and she tells her husband. You tell a friend and he tells one of your mutual golf buddies. I've always believed that if you are doing something that would be mortified about if it got out, then the best course is probably don't do it. Where DD is concerned, I feel like I'm not ready to disclose it to the world or even our whole social network (and I KNOW my wife isn't open to that right now or possibly ever), so my view is if it gets out it gets out.

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  19. I agree with Dan completely about not disclosing to "the general social network or 'the world'" My advocacy is for couples who are engaged in the lifestyle to some degree already to consider seeking one another out.

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  20. Just adding to my comment from July 16.

    I am sure everyone has checked out ALL of the photos our Host has collected; and it is an incredible collection. Maybe a couple dozen of them take place at what we call "Gatherings", parties for like-minded people. If you look at those photos you can tell people are socially comfortable and enjoying themselves.

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  21. Tomy,

    I am having trouble locating these photos - can you direct us all there? Thanks so much.

    Carl H

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  22. Hi Carl,

    You can't find the photos because I got mixed up and was thinking about another Blog, that I think you frequent anyway. No photos on here

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