Monday, April 18, 2016

The Forum -- Vol. 135 -- Fantasy versus Reality

[Note: Comment moderation has been enabled again, hopefully temporarily.  I apologize for the inconvenience, but your comments may be a little slow to post.]

Hello all.  Welcome back to the Disciplined Husbands Forum.  Our weekly gathering of men and women who are participating or interested in Domestic Discipline and Female Led Relationships.  I hope you had a great week and are enjoying the weekend.

I had originally intended to devote this week's Forum to the topic of whether being dominant can be learned, but I decided to put that one off for a week, because in the meantime I got a really wonderful email from one of our commenters that focused on the difference between the "fantasies" that may have led us to Domestic Discipline versus the reality of actually being a disciplined husband.  I have reprinted it below and made its themes this week's topic, because it summarized by own experience as well or better than I have ever been able to.

It was also well timed, as there have been a larger than normal number of comments here and in the Guestbook referring to "extreme" spankings, but in a context that makes it clear that what the author considers "extreme" is the "fantasy" that brought many of us to Domestic Discipline, namely a true disciplinary spanking that hurts enough to make us very sorry that we engaged in the behavior for which we are being punished.  There are aspects of that theme in the below, where the author talks about a spanking that is so hard and long that you don't think you can take it, but it is only when you realize that it is just beginning that you really give into it and experience what a true punishment spanking is supposed to be.  For some this remains only a fantasy, but for some it is the very essence of a Domestic Discipline relationship.

Because of what seemed to be a trend in the comments, I have posted three new polls that focus on what level of discipline and control people are looking for in these relationships.  I have done a variation on these before, but we have a lot more readers now and it seemed like a good time to test whether there is still a very strong bias in our readers towards wanting harder discipline, stricter accountability, and more rigorous control.  Another reason I wanted to repeat the earlier poll is some of the wives have expressed recently that one thing that may hold them back from really stepping into the HoH role is concern that he might change his mind once he experiences the reality and finds it quite different from the fantasy.  So, gents, if you want to reassure your Disciplinary Wife that this is what you really want, please fill out the polls and help deliver that message.

So, here is full post, from ZM.  From my perspective, it really is a fantastic summary of what brought me to, and keeps me in, a Domestic Discipline relationship:



Why do I need or want this?  I'm really not sure...
·      Maybe I need more clear boundaries, so life feels orderly and not out of control?
o   I didn't have any boundaries while growing up. Could it be that?
o   Maybe I just need the reassurance and orderliness of actions having consequences for the world to make sense? Of course they do, but it is not always as clear as "if this, then that..."
·      Maybe I want or need to change faster to become who I want to be and do what I want to do?
o   I am good, but I have huge dreams so I need to become ever better to achieve my goals.
o   Sometimes consequences are too long-term to change behavior effectively. For example, I know that if I eat less, I will lose weight, look better, be healthier, and live longer. But because these are all long term effects, it can be very hard to stay on a diet since I don't see immediate results.
o   Maybe I lack sufficient self-control, or I live too much in the moment? But for me to achieve my long term goals, I need short-term consequences to effect long-term change.
·      Maybe I sometimes need the closure of having paid for my transgressions?
o   Even if others forgive me, sometimes it is hard to forgive myself, and guilt accumulates.
o   There are few situations in life where wrongs are truly paid for (like speeding tickets)
o   Sometimes I just need to have a clean slate.
·      Maybe I get tired of being in charge, and need to be under someone else's control for a while?
o   It is lonely at the top, with everyone looking to me for answers all the time.
o   Maybe even though others look up to me, I know I am not quite as great as they think?
o   Or maybe I bully others sometimes, and need to feel what it is like to be bossed around?
o   Either way, making difficult decisions is tiring. It can be a relief to have all decisions out of my hands, even if only for a time.
It could be any, all, or none of these reasons.  I'm not sure, but it doesn't really matter, because I do know that I crave "real" discipline, punishment, and control, that which most people would rather avoid. This need for control and discipline is a perpetual enigma which forever lives in the never-never land between fantasy and reality. My fantasy and reality are far apart and in direct conflict:
·      In my fantasy, boundaries are imposed and enforced.  In reality, I rebel against any boundaries.
·      In my fantasy, my actions have consequences.  In reality, I try to avoid negative consequences.
·      In my fantasy, I crave punishment.  In reality, I fear punishment. 
·      In my fantasy, I must give up control.  In reality, I love to be in control.
·      In my fantasy, I am weak and powerless.  In reality, I am strong and powerful.
I am incredibly fortunate because I have someone who loves me enough to understand and fulfill my unusual needs and desires. It is complicated by the fact that my fantasy needs it to be "real," but at the same time, we have a great relationship and equal partnership, so our reality needs it to be "fantasy." In the end, we allow the fantasy to enter our reality from time to time, but our relationship will never be in any way defined by it, but rather by our love for each other. We are loving, we are in love, and everything we do is inspired by love. Even the very firmness, strictness, harshness and at times almost meanness that she unleashes as part of this fantasy ultimately flow from our love for each other. It is very ironic that this fantasy which is based on power and control (both of which have absolutely no place in love) makes us ever closer to each other and more in love.
So here I am waiting, remembering the last time and anticipating the next, not knowing when it will be; It could be tomorrow, next week, or next month.  I crave it because the whole experience is unbelievably exciting, and not knowing when it will next happen only adds to the excitement.  At the same time I also fear the real emotion involved, since I don’t like disappointing her. As more time passes from the last punishment, the desire grows and I want it to happen again. But in order for it to have meaning, it has to be for real infractions and she has to have emotions to vent. Because I love her and only want to make her happy, I will never try to hurt her feelings, so infractions are not intentional, but rather things that I do without thinking or that result from my bad habits.  Also, because she is kind and understanding, she might not choose to punish me even when I deserve it.  However, living together inevitably ensures that infractions will happen from time to time, and at least at some of these times, she will be in the mood to use my fantasy to make her feelings clear.
When she decides to punish me, I am immediately overcome by powerful emotions as my fantasy collides with the reality of my impending punishment. My heart races and I feel a surge of adrenaline bordering on fear. I may think it is unfair or undeserved and try to defend my actions or plead my innocence, but ultimately, it was me who asked for this, who gave her this authority, and who said that her word is final, so I give in to the inevitable.  As soon as the punishment actually starts, everything becomes very real very quickly, and the fantasy is forgotten for a time, totally replaced by reality.  I am initially surprised by how it is more painful than I remembered from before, since I tend to forget the pain and remember only the experience (kind of like having a baby). At first, I try to fight the punishment and just endure until the end.  I am more focused on being strong  than thinking about why I am being punished. As the punishment continues, I start to feel like I can't take any more, and that it will never end.  But of course it doesn't end yet, since at that point true punishment is just beginning.  The pain, embarrassment, guilt and emotion keep building as the punishment progresses and they overpower all my defenses one by one, until in the end I surrender to and even embrace the punishment, knowing that I deserve it and need it. At that point, I relax and just absorb the lesson being taught.  Finally the punishment can end.
However real the punishment might have been, as soon as it is over, the conflict between reality and fantasy begins once again. Over the following days, the punishment (with all of the feelings of fear, excitement, pain, and embarrassment) is ever-present in my mind.  As I sit down, or perhaps as I walk, I feel the effects of the punishment.  The times I am not consciously aware of it, I am unconsciously replaying the punishment, what was said, what needs to change, etc. But as I remember what happened, I am seeing the reality of what happened through the lens of fantasy.  Yes it was painful, embarrassing, etc., but it was also very, very hot!
Again, THIS is why it works (at least for me). Even though I don't always understand this relationship between fantasy and reality, it is BECAUSE of this paradox that it is so powerful for me. As we walk over this bridge between fantasy and reality, it all at once fulfills my strongest fantasies, changes me,  and strengthens our love.
·      It greatly enhances communication. I hear and understand much better than if she just used verbal communication. Because of the sudden harshness and seriousness, and because it plays to my deepest fantasy, the issue is given maximum attention, but in a positive way, rather than negative. Rather than just try to evade the issue and make it go away, I actually listen. Since relationships are entirely dependent on communication, this is incredibly powerful and makes our relationship bulletproof.
·      It changes my thinking or my mindset about the situation or behavior. Over the days that follow, the whole scene and all the emotions of it is on constant replay through my mind, and I see the situation more clearly from her viewpoint. As my mindset changes, it changes my behavior.
·      It greatly increases intimacy. In life, I am strong and always stand up for her, provide for her, and protect her.  But for a time, I am completely vulnerable to her. This vulnerability enables intimacy which creates a bond that others will never feel.
·      It makes me love her and feel loved even more, because she cares enough about me to do anything and everything to make my fantasies reality. Sure, if she was just cold and distant, it would make a point, but I would be angry with her and would feel defensive and might pull away. Instead, she has made my fantasy reality, exactly at the time she might not feel much like doing me favors.  
Because she is using my own fantasy to communicate her own feelings, I fully hear what she says, I see things from a different perspective, I feel closer to her than ever, and it makes me want to meet her every need because of our deep love for each other.  This strengthens our relationship and empowers me to make changes that allow our lives to be better, happier, and less stressful as I become who I want to be and we achieve our dreams."
So, how does your Domestic Discipline or FLR relationship deviate from the fantasy that led you to it or keeps you in it?  Are they conflict, or do they mutually reinforce each other, as they do for ZM?
 Have a great week, and if you are new to our Forum, please stop by the Guestbook (tab above) and tell us a little about yourself.

Dan

61 comments:

  1. Hello Dan,
    I believe the challenge for any woman taking on the responsibility of disciplining her husband is moving him from his fantasy to a shared reality for both of them.Whatever the fantasy is, it will take over his life if it is not altered with reality. I think the strap or paddle (or cane if you use one) makes him confront reality quickly.If you don't believe that watch what happens to his erection when the punishment begins.Consistent and if necessary progressive discipline is what makes him confront that reality more and more and hold on to the fantasy less and less.The fact is these guys do need real accountability, real discipline and real punishment.Aunt Kay was right about saying the marks should last for several days or a week and he should know and remember what happened because he dared to disobey or break a rule. His fantasy is what makes him accept corporal punishment but its an adolescent little boy looking for a mommy figure fantasy.But he is not a little boy and I am not his mommy. I am his wife and when I punish him I want him to understand that and gradually replace that silly fantasy with the reality I love him but he gets punished every time he needs it. Looking this over, it sounds harsh but it isn't. Evey wife has a choice to pander to that fantasy while getting little or no improvement in behavior or to help her husband grow and become the best of himself. None of you guys will achieve that until you let go of your fantasy and connect with the reality that your wife is your disciplinarian today, tomorrow and the rest of your life.
    Marisa

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    1. BRAVA !
      Marisa, I do love how you stated that. It is real truth! Thank You!

      Anna

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    2. Hi Marisa,

      "The fact is these guys do need real accountability, real discipline and real punishment.Aunt Kay was right about saying the marks should last for several days or a week and he should know and remember what happened because he dared to disobey or break a rule. His fantasy is what makes him accept corporal punishment but its an adolescent little boy looking for a mommy figure fantasy.But he is not a little boy and I am not his mommy."

      I agree 100% with the first part. And, most of the second, though I'm not sure about he "mommy figure." It may very well be true, though I don't experience it that way myself. That notwithstanding, I am with you 100% of the basic message that a real DD spanking is very different from most fantasies about what it is like, and for it to really be DD it has to make an impression. Kudos to you for taking matters in hand so firmly and consistently.

      Dan

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    3. Very well said, Marissa - and spot on, at least in my opinion. Like Dan, I am also not certain that the Mommy figure applies - but will certainly agree that I seem to have a "bad boy side" that responds especially well to a good sound paddling. --al

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    4. It is often a lifelong fantasy and the fantasy is for real discipline so I am not sure that experiencing the reality -no matter how painful and humiliating- will weaken the fantasy nor do I think it is necessarily desirable. In my opinion, it is better for both to embrace the fantasy and occasionally make it very real, and real punishments should continue well past the point it is fun and leave marks and soreness that last for at least several days. If the husband is seeking this it is important for the wife to very clearly assert her authority and to leave no doubt that she can punish him whenever she wants however she wants and how severely she wants. In the beginning, this can be amplified by occasionally punishing him quite severely for something very minor, when he is not expecting it. She can even tell him she knows that it wasn't a big deal but that she needs him to understand that her authority to punish him is unlimited (unless he decides to no longer have this as part of the relationship) and she can punish him whenever she feels like it. If she does this and this is what he wants then she will also reap the benefit of improved behaviors and attitudes and he will be very loving and attentive to her needs. I too am unsure about the Mommy figure because I don't feel that way towards her at any time, but during and after punishments I very much feel like a "bad boy" and at least temporarily makes me less arrogant and cocky, which is good for everyone around me

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    5. Hi Anonymous. Great observations, and good advice. Thanks for joining.

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  2. I suggested DD to my wife to save a marriage that was sputtering because of problems that I had that were obvious to me and her. Getting spanked was common in schools and from parents and I never saw a kid enjoy one. I knew a good spanking hurt, but I have come to realize my wife can make them hurt a heck of a lot more than I thought. So I was realistic from the start because I wanted to change bad habits. Marisa is right on when she states spankings have to be good and hard and close to unbearable if bad behaviors are to be stopped. My wife who really does love me (but was getting tired of putting up with my behavior) was, in my belief,ready to take full advantage of my giving her the power to discipline me as she saw fit. Agreed upon behavior (and a few health related rules) are enforced in full by my wife who, almost from the start, had no problem lighting a fire on my behind when I screwed up. They have even increased in intensity when I screw up on the same behavior or lack of same. I hated these spankings, but I've improved dramatically because I really wanted to avoid them. At the same time I am happy with myself for improving and like the fact that I have a wife willing to set me straight when I go out of bounds. It has also improved our relationship and rekindled our love interests as well. My wife is happy because she knows I am willing to take a really tough hiding to have a better relationship with her. She is an incredibly wonderful and nice wife, but she also takes the responsibility of giving me very tough love when she knows I need it. So it was more reality than fantasy for me when I suggested a DD relationship.

    FRED

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    1. Thanks, Fred. I couldn't have said it better myself. Where I am a little different from many of the other contributors--and it sounds like you may be as well--is I never really had some long "fantasy phase" of wanting hard spankings but not trying to implement that reality. I never fantasized about them at all, then stumbled onto the DWC, then proposed it to my wife to explore as a new reality. There really wasn't some intermediate "fantasy" phase or, if there was, it lasted only for a very short time. And like yours, my wife took to hard disciplinary spankings like the proverbial duck to water.

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  3. Dan,

    These are all great comments.One thing running through them is that some of us are seeking real discipline and others want to experience it as a fantasy even though some of the fantasy included some very real life spanking. This is all fine as far as I am concerned: to each their own . But among ourselves it is good to make clear which side of it we are seeking, discussing or relating
    Alan

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    1. We have been remarkably free of this sort of thing. One of his complaints about me--among many--was that I didn't have anything on the blog announcing when comments would be rejected. I really haven't needed to. In the three years that it has been up, I have deleted comments in four circumstances:

      (1) Attacks on other contributors, though this Steve guy is about the only instance of that I can think of.
      (2) One instance where I felt someone was making a derogatory statement about LGBT political issues.
      (3) One instance in which someone's profile was inadvertently displaying something that gave me some concerns that I prefer not to go into. I contacted the person and an appropriate change was made.
      (4) Every few months, a commercial porn site or other website will post a comment on some old post with a link to their website, hoping I won't catch it.

      That's really been it, and it has been a handful of times in three years

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  4. Dan and author great summary and topic. Since the idea of being spanked is a major turn-on for me, it is embedded into a fantasy, and one which my wife loves me enough to give me the discipline I so crave. But she also uses it to deal with behavior that she wants changed. It is the pre and post spanking that are the making for the fantasies but the actual spanking is the reality and one I would so gladly endure for the fantasy. John

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    1. Hi John. I'm sure many would agree with that distinction. And, isn't it interesting the extent to which the fantasy endures despite those intermittent injections of reality.

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    2. This is a lot like my husband and me. He has a huge fantasy of real spankings and he can't even talk about it without getting so excited that I can hear it in his voice. The reality is harder for him sometimes but it never seems to affect the fantasy. When we do this he gets just what he needs and I can see he loves me even more for it. I am doing this for him but I still get a lot out of it because even when I start out upset at him I always get turned on during the spanking and even more I see that it changes his behaviors so I end up with a happier and better husband.

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    3. Hi Anonymous -- that seems like a great combination -- getting turned on and a better husband to boot!

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  5. The email from ZM indicates that there is a point where he can relax and just absorb the punishment so it can end. Is there a way to mentally get yourself there sooner rather than later? A lot of the kicking, squirming and resisting feels involuntary and almost impossible to control, so I wonder if you can get yourself in a headspace to overcome those defenses more quickly and "surrender" as he mentions?

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    1. I can't help on that one. Perhaps someone else has found a way to do it?

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    2. You don't do it. She does.

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  6. It can't always be achieved.Your disciplinarian can help by making you feel ashamed and contrite with a good scolding before you are spanked.She can also help by never stopping a spanking until you have accepted it and surrendered to it. If you know its not going to stop until you give in, its much easier to give in early in the spanking. But the rest of it is mental, willing yourself to stop all resistance and cooperate with her. When this happens for me I am telling myself I deserve to be punished and she is doing it for me and our relationship. Pretty soon my bottom goes numb and I m raising my bum to her paddle or strap after each stroke,showing her I have surrendered.Another thing to remember is that when you accept mentally what is happening you get to that surrendered state much faster and the spanking is probably shorter.The natural act of tensing up in anticipation of each stroke actually makes it hurt more and last longer. These are all mental things you have control over while you have no control over whether you get spanked or how hard.Just an editorial comment too: I think we owe our wives and girlfriends this surrender which is really a form of obedience and taking it with good grace is something we owe them. They work very hard to give us the discipline we need.Hope this helps.
    Alan

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    1. Thanks, Alan. The tensing definitely does make it hurt more, though it is devilishly hard to control. Regarding surrender, I should point out that some Disciplinary Wives like the feedback of shouts, please to stop, gasps, etc.

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    2. To Anonymous,

      Due to length I have to split this up.

      Please remember what works for you, may not work for others. I would like to add to Alan an Dan's excellent comments.

      First my situation is different than most. I have a very stressful job, so I get spanked to remove tension and remove internal turmoil. So getting into subspace with a minimum of fuss is the objective. Accordingly, both my wife and I have actively worked to see how fast I can get there with a minimum of bruising. But I have never gotten into subspace without bruising. The following is what works for me.

      First, I set up the spanking area by myself. This helps prepare my mind for the event and makes it easy for my wife. We find it best for me to be spanked either laying on top of a bed (that is the correct height for my wife to spank me) or a padded piano bench. Preparation isn't elaborate, just making sure that the area is clear, padding is adjusted and the instruments are waiting.

      Second, I go and tell my wife that I am ready. After her acknowledgement, I go back to the room and stand and just think of submission and how important it is to do a good job. My wife will usually make me wait about 5-10 minutes. This might seem like a small step, but (for me) the closer I can get my mind in the right frame of mind then the faster the whole process will go. The few times I skipped this step, either failed got to subspace or the spanking took forever.

      When my wife enters the room, I will look down, in a submissive pose. Until the whole event is over, I will not stare at her "eye to eye." She will gently touch me (usually on the cheek) and ask me why we are here. I have to tell her what is causing the stress and turmoil (e.g. a supplier delivering material too late to make the timeline), what are the outward effects (e.g. I am curt with people that deserve courtesy or tilting against windmills) and what I need to to do correct the issue (e.g. find a new supplier, alter the work order or maybe adjust the timeline). This step sets the tone as correction not punishment. My wife then restates what I have said and gives me words of encouragement. She finishes up by saying that she will help "re-focus" me.

      Next, she tells me to lower my clothes and get into position.

      After I am in position, she will usually say a few words, which lets me know that the spanking is beginning. She starts with a warm up of about 15-30 seconds. For me the warm up is important because it helps prepare my body for the pain that is about to begin.

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    3. After the warm-up, the real spanking begins. It really hurts. The pain quickly builds up. I bite on a hand towel to keep from yelling or clenching my teeth too hard, but my head lurches up and I grunt in pain. At this point, I really really REALLY wonder "why am I doing this" and "how much more will it hurt before it ends."

      My wife will settle into a pattern, e.g. left cheek, right cheek, middle, left cheek, right cheek, middle, ... For me, a pattern (almost any pattern) helps my brain accept the pain.

      Three out of four times, I will start sweating. Not in buckets, but more like you would sweat if you entered a warm room. Within about a minute, my brain starts shutting down. I slowly stop reacting to the pain. I can feel the pain, but my brain is unwinding. I withdraw into myself and react like a wet noodle. When my wife notices that I have stppoed reacting, she will continue for several minutes. When she stops spanking me, I don't want to move, say anything or even think. My brain is almost blank.

      At this point my wife will either: 1) lightly touch me and tell me to go to bed when I can and she will hold me there or 2) she will lay beside me and very gently hold me. As I come out of the fog, I am very vulnerable. All I want to do is wrap myself around my wife. Neither of us will say anything for about five minutes. Think of the depression people get after a drug induced euphoric state. Within 10 minutes I am in a very deep sleep. I am usually a light sleeper, but on these occasions, she can unwrap herself from me and I won't move.

      Another really important point. My wife has to watch me closely to see when I reach subspace, because I can no longer give her any feed back on the pain she is inflicting. This could be a real problem for obvious reasons.

      When I wake up, the prior stress or turmoil is either gone or at a very manageable level.

      Now, in the alternative, I have received spankings to ensure I perform at a stated level. Long story for another day. And subspace was not the objective and the spanking was intentionally carried out to maximize pain and prevent subspace.

      I hope this helps.

      Joe2

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    4. Joe, I hope these were the two posts you referenced, as only one had your name on it. I posted one last night, but the other apparently got caught in the spam filter, where I found it this morning.

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    5. Dan,

      You put the two parts together correctly. If I do this again, I will put a "part I- Joe2; part II Joe2" To make it easier for you.

      Thank you. Joe2

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    6. Joe2, thanks. Great comments. Your dynamic is obviously a little different than some because of what you are trying to accomplish with it, but it is interesting to me how despite the differing end-goal, the process is very much like our own. Or, it may also be that you are dealing proactively with the stress, while others of us deal with it reactively, by first acting out then getting the spanking as a result of the acting out. Thanks for sharing.

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    7. Joe2: I just looked at this and realized it was probably in response to my April 24, 2016 7:16 am post.

      I tend to think of what you are doing as a form of "spanking therapy," which I find fascinating. I have had a subspace experience, and the calm it produced in me (a super hyper, type AAA person) was incredible. I don't know how to teach my wife to do it. I went to a pro, and I'm not sure it was her goal to get me there, but I believe I did. I was sweating the way you said, and I was somewhat disoriented and unsteady on my feet when we were done. But, she knew I kind of "disappeared" during the spanking because she actually asked if I was still with her. She didnt' really need to ramp up the pain level that much. She had previously spanked me a fair amount harder, and it was too much to reach subspace for me.

      From what I've read, to intentionally get someone into subspace, you focus on more rhythmic spanking and probably don't do much talking. That's how it went for me. It sounds like you wife is pretty astute about how to get you there and how to be careful once you are because of the dangers you mentioned (your ability to respond verbally starts to shut down).

      I do know that you have to to really surrender to the experience or you'll never get to subspace. I tried using a mindfulness meditation technique that is geared towards dealing with pain (accepting it). It involves focusing on the site of the pain and imagining that you're breathing in and out of that location on your body.

      Maybe you can explain more about your final point. It sounds like you get a "protactive" non-subspace spanking to focus you on performing some sort of tasks. It would be interesting to hear how that works for you.

      Anyway, great stuff. Thanks for sharing it.

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  7. Great suggestions. Thanks for responding to my post.

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  8. Dan
    Such an important topic. In my mind, discipline sessions with my wife feeds the fantasy that somehow the pain will eradicate bad behavior both past and present. The Reality is the discipline hurts. I dont like it, but am grateful that my wife and I have found a way to open a new page. I have never felt as close to her as I
    do after a session and she holds me in her arms.

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    1. Thanks, Anonymous. Well put regarding "after session" closeness.

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  9. I really think the anticipation of a spanking is the fantasy then reality is when she starts . For instance she told me yesterday that I was getting punished Sunday before bed I have had all day to think about it don't even know why yet. I might never know cause when she starts she don't talk its all business! I just hope its pre instead of post. Really depends on what made her mad.

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  10. Great comments throughout. ZM's original letter is excellent - as is Marisa's reply from the wife's perspective. And Alan reiterates ZM's original point in good fashion also - that there is merit in accepting your punishment, realizing that the true Disciplinary Wife is not going to stop until your resistance is gone and you have submitted to the punishment. This probably becomes more obvious and "easier" to do after the first several sessions.

    One of the first things my wife read on that same morning I introduced her to the DWC site was from another F/M site that existed at the time. On that site a wife had written "It is that long nonstop series of whacks that will finally drive him into submission. It may take a hundred or more. Don't stop until you can sense his submission, and then keep on for a while longer as that is when the the lesson is truly learned. And if he is not sobbing, then you are not spanking hard enough". My wife read this before my very first disciplinary wife spanking - and took it to heart. I learned very early on that it is much better not to resist and just to accept what was coming.

    I suspect that learning this acceptance during a spanking carries over into a topic that Alan and I both had discussed before - and that is when you reach the point in DW relationship in which the husband realizes that he really has no recourse when his wife tells him to get the paddle. It becomes psychologically-emotionally unacceptable to refuse - although obviously the husband could from a physical perspective. It goes beyond the intellectual acknowledgment that you may have both agreed that she could spank you any time for any reason at her sole discretion - to a much deeper emotional level in which the husband just accepts that when his wife says that he has a spanking coming - then he does, case closed, nothing more to be said. I would agree with Alan when he stated some time back that this level of acceptance was the hallmark of true F/M DD relationship. (paraphrasing you, Alan, feel free to elaborate). -al

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    1. Thanks, al. Great point regarding reaching a state where there is a sense of "no recourse" -- just need to get the paddle, as ordered.

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    2. "And like yours, my wife took to hard disciplinary spankings like the proverbial duck to water."
      Dan - I do recall, maybe a long time ago, in one instance you wrote of the fact that she didn't resort to this reality in a time of needed correction. The reality at that time was a reversion to the silent treatment, the cold shoulder.
      For me, that is true misery. It serves no purpose other than allowing the bad behavior in me to continue down the wrong path, but she still occasionally does that.
      Has that disappeared from your relationship, does it slowly cease or does it still rear its ugly head from time to time?
      I don't know if the reason my wife reverts to that approach is lack of confidence or I just plain don't know why. JT

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    3. Al and Dan,
      Al nails what was for me the event that marked the point I really came under control.It wasn't just getting spanked when I REALLY didn't want it, but realizing I couldn't stop it. Her will was stronger than mine and I simply had to obey her or that's the way I felt. I really wanted this and for her to have this power.So I am not portraying it as her overpowering me as much as my psychological submission to her.I had given her lots of information about things that made me ( literally) weak in the knees ( like having my pants taken down decisively, being ear marched and being hand spanked over my pants while being led upstairs). She used these things as well as telling me very forcefully she was in charge and that once I had given her that authority i could never take it away.But it still surprised me when it happened. She has since told me many times that she was already in control long before I realized it. Looking back I know she was right. But coming to realize it was truly a defining moment.
      Alan

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    4. Alan, that is a very interesting point. Another interesting angle would be, when did your wife first realize she was in charge, and was there anything that helped her make that leap. Or, was it just a matter of time and repetition?

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    5. JT, it really only happened once, so I think it was just one of those things where the temper erupted before thoughts of how to deal with it diverted things to a DD response. Having a some temper issues myself, I understand how you can sometimes revert to that reaction despite the best intentions. I do think if it happened again today, she wouldn't hesitate to use discipline instead.

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    6. Dan,
      I will ask her when she first felt in charge but I suspect she will say she just knew. I think she knew because of how I acted when she was assertive about spanking. In the beginning she was always surprised at the transformation in me when she initiated discipline. Once she said to me " Alan, you act just like a little boy when I am punishing you". Those differences are pretty dramatic and they affect her too. I know there is something about a woman taking charge in a confident way that just puts me on remote control.When a man becomes ( acts) submissive and obedient toward a woman it probably makes a woman fel much more in charge. She should because she is.
      Alan

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  11. Dan

    What a great statement from ZM. For me and I sense in some way from you, my being out of control, thinking out of the box, often ignoring boundaries is what brought me success in my career. It made a mess of my personal life.
    Even before I married Anna, I went to a professional domme, who punished me with paddles, canes , brushes and riding crops. When I felt out of control I would call her up and be punished.
    It relieved some pressure, but not really.
    It was only when in therapy, to save our marriage, I told Anna and vowed to never do that again and perhaps Anna would take her place. So arrogant of me. It was only much later I realized what I was doing wasnt going to change anything.. After all I was always in control. A professional has no desire for me to improve. Anna wants improved behavior for and towards her and our boys. They all deserve that. When I get lost at times in how important I am, discipline not when I want it , but when she chooses to remind me of my shortcomings as husband and father is what is needed. Many times I resist mentally and dont want it. But isnt that the point of discipline? I have stopped trying to understand why I want or need this. What I do know is after, as I curl up next to Anna I feel calm and at peace.

    peter

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    1. Hi Peter. Yes, I can certainly identify and sympathize. Thinking out of the box and ignoring boundaries are core attributes and success factors that I would never want to give up, but when they roam out of control they do cause problems. While I lived with the same pressure you did, a professional domme never occurred to me, nor did spanking in any form. It just wasn't something I ever thought about as an option. Discipline when she wants, not when you want, definitely is humbling, in a good way. For me, the FLR side that we have been exploring -- her being more in charge of day to day decisions, doling out chores for me to do, etc. -- serves the same purpose. I resist it mentally and generally hate it as it is happening, but it does humble me and helps keep the ego and arrogance in control. No small feat.

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  12. Dan,

    This is Joe2. I tried to post a lengthy comment, so I had to split it into two sections. Unfortunately, the first half did not post. Can you please delete my comment above and I will resubmit? Thanks.

    Joe2

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  13. To me "fantasy" is tricky word to use in the context of DD. I would prefer "expectation". i.e: how did I envision DD when we were deciding on it and how has the reality of it played out differently? To me "fantasy" suggests that DD is predominantly sexual, whereas, in our case, sexuality is a sizable element...........but not the only one. "Fantasy" also has a connotation of dress-up and concocted scenarios, whereas spanking may well be a fetish...but within DD it is a fetish being used for a genuine purpose. Anyway, I don't want to get bogged down in semantics (LOL actually I would love to, but I'm probably the only one) so......

    For me the biggest difference between my expectations and my reality is the way Rosa has taken to all this. (I have written this before, but it is the main thing that has been both exciting and scary about how DD has worked out for us). Even as I suggested DD, rules, punishment ideas, etc. at the beginning, something in me that craved it all to be real, still saw DD as some sort of 'game' albeit one with rules and real consequences. Rosa sees aspects of our DD as a sort of game as well.......but underneath it all, her belief is that our agreement means that she is "the boss" for real.

    I sort of saw my obedience as my way of willingly following the rules of the game, or honoring the promises I made. She sees my obedience as a given. If asked, she would look at you with a sort of "what don't you get?" expression as she confirmed her belief in her authority. That is the thing I still can't get used to even as I admire her for her confidence and unabashed belief in her right to rule and punish. I suppose my expectation is still that she would see my submission as a much bigger deal than she does. Instead of this huge concession of rights, or this big "gift of submission", she truly sees our roles with a 'no-brainer' recognition of each of us being exactly where we are meant to be. So I guess when she has a serious discussion with me over some expectation or behavior, or when she plainly informs me that something I did or didn't do has just earned me a spanking, I am still surprised...........even though it is sort of what I was hoping for in my 'fantasy'.

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    1. Hey KD. I agree "expectation" may be another good way of putting it. I think "fantasy" could be used in two senses. One, as you note, something that has a sexual connotation. The other is more like a "wish" or a "desire" that hasn't risen to the level of expectation because there hasn't been an agreement to the relationship yet.

      I love hearing about your relationship with Rosa, because so many of us are NOT in something similar and struggle with bringing DD into a relationship in which the woman does not understand her own power and who has to really grow into it over time. So, it is very interesting to hear about it from someone whose wife is in such the opposite camp that for her this is just the natural way things should be.

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    2. BTW, one area where my wife always has controlled is--contrary to our little troll's accusations above--is bank accounts. She doesn't need "her own," because she basically manages the bank accounts into which my income goes automatically. It's not a DD thing, just different competencies. She handles that stuff well, while I just don't care about it. I honestly have no idea how to even access the account on-line, and I seldom even write a check. As long as my credit card bill gets paid every month, I just don't care about anything else. So, in that respect, I guess I do understand a dynamic in which part of the "control" just seems natural.

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    3. Thank you for the apparent compliment on how our DD plays out so naturally. In the spirit of fairness and honesty I must say that: Rosa is somewhat unique in many ways (not just dominance) and we both went into this knowing who we were and what we both wanted. I would not knowingly go into a serious relationship with anyone who was not willing and compatible for me and my nature. Yet with all that said, we still have our lows, issues, brick walls, steps back, arguments, hurt feelings, mixed feelings, mixed signals, etc.

      The plain fact is that DD IS NOT EASY for either party. Rosa believes in her authority yet still struggles with it often enough.

      I have written this before but I think it is the one policy or understanding she and I have that eliminates much of the frustration that I see affecting the satisfaction in living DD. We both understand and fully accept that for DD to "work" BOTH parties have to walk away from a punishment feeling satisfied. For us that has sometimes meant me getting multiple hard spankings, that got pretty hard to take after a while, so that Rosa could feel the issue was resolved. And sometimes it meant me being brave enough to tell her after she's announced the end of a spanking that somehow I still felt guilty and unresolved. She understands how important this is for me as well and has no problem adding on more. In this way.....which isn't always easy emotionally or physically.....the one aspect of our DD that stays mutually satisfying, is the resolution and restored connection we get from accepting that severity or quantity might need to be adjusted since it is not uncommon for what seems enough for one party, is not enough for the other.

      If folks here manage nothing else, I would say that having an understanding like this is a huge step for everyone to feel like the DD, despite its difficulties, ultimately "works".

      I also get what you are saying about finances. Couples should always go with their strengths regardless of stereotypes or trolls.

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    4. Great points. It really does have to be a huge advantage to enter into a relationship when both parties are old enough to really know who they are. I know myself so much better now that I did in my 20s, but it's also fair to say that I changed a hell of a lot over those two decades, so it's not like knowing myself better back then would have necessarily taken anything in a different direction. In fact, had DD and disciplinary spankings even been on my radar back then, I'm not sure they would have had any attraction. I think I had to achieve a certain amount of control before I started having a desire to let it go, if that makes sense.

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  14. What I like about the reality is that when things don't go as desired, we don't feel let down, we just re-work it. Where with fantasy, the letdown is often huge.

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  15. I wanted punishment spanking most of my life, and fantasized about being spanked and punished by every girl that I was interested in. At times I found someone I went out with who would do it but usually if I started to react they stopped, or if it got to a point I didn't like it, I'd want to stop, but then after a while, I was always unfulfilled. So, with my wife, we did a little play but she wasn't comfortable not knowing my limits and stopped. When we finally discussed it, I told her I wanted real discipline, which means that I wouldn't like it while happening if done right but it's what I really want/need. I wanted her to have 100% control, so I could do nothing to stop it but could sure make it worse. She gave me my first real discipline spanking and asked me if I was sure I wanted that, letting me know if she was moody or if I did the same thing more than once, it could well be worse. I must say it was a lot worse than anything she did in play. If she would have asked me right after it was finished, I'd have said "no" I didn't want that. But give me about 5 minutes to think about it and even sitting there very sore, I already knew it was exactly what I wanted all this time. So, when I gave her my answer to if I really wanted that when necessary, I said "yes." Still, sometimes while it's happening and right after, I wish I never asked (and sometimes even leading up to it if I know in advance it's coming). But it has made the relationship much better and I'm so glad I opened up, told her I really wanted it and that we agreed she had 100% authority to discipline me. Also, I found it interesting about what was written earlier about the "bad boy" feeling. Even though I feel much like a chastised naughty boy when she punishes me she is definitely not a "mommy figure" in any way, but rather a very sexy but strong woman who cares enough about her "bad boy" to help remind him be attentive to her and to be his best. She does a great job and it makes me love her even more.

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    1. Hi Anonymous. This is great. Thanks for sharing.

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  16. I don't know if this belongs here but it has to do with when it became a reality for me. Early in our relationship we had a disagreement that I guess you could say turned into an argument. Nothing major, but we were speaking sharply to each other. Then we settled it and were cuddling on the couch when she said that while she was as much at fault as I was she thought it would be good for us if I she gave me a spanking. Not required, but if I agreed to get the hairbrush. It took me only a minute to get up and fetch it, and get into position. It was a through spanking and was sort of a turning point.
    I've been lurking for a long time and wanted to get my feet wet so to speak.

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    1. Hi Anonymous. Congratulations on hitting two turning points -- moving into Disciplined Husband status and from lurker to participant. Welcome!

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  17. My wife says that when she resorts to DD, it is to move me from "Bad Boy" back to being the man she married.
    Scott

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    1. Thanks, Scott. Ironically, my wife married the "Bad Boy," but I suspect he got a little tiring after awhile.

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  18. Hi Dan,
    My wife was a reluctant spanker before we were married and only spanked me when I asked her during sex. But my fantasy/desire had always been for a DD type situation, where long hard spankings would keep me on track. When I introduced her to the idea of DD and websites such as the DWC she took to the idea with gusto. After a few years of experimenting with rules,rituals, positions and implements we got to what works best for us. I am spanked regularly and soundly and get other punishments too. I now hate the spanking itself but love the feeling of 'centeredness' it gives me afterwards and the closeness it brings me to my wife, whom I adore more than ever. The reality of our DD relationship has surpassed my original fantasy - perhaps I would say that my fantasy has evolved to match the reality. What more could I want?

    CRM

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    1. "My fantasy has evolved to match the reality." Very well said. Thanks, CRM!

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  19. Anon - part 1
    Thank you for the thought provoking letter ZM. I am interested in the psychology of punishment, which you touched upon in the beginning about why you want and need this.

    Most of the men on this board claim to want real punishment. In a domestic discipline relationship the punishments need to be harsh enough to change behaviors, but even those who just have this as a fantasy still want the actual punishment part to be real. Real in this case means unpleasant enough that you are hating it at the time it happens. One common “complaint” that I have read on this blog, and on the polls, is that husbands want firmer discipline than their wives give. Earlier comments talked about how the husband can be brought to the point of surrendering to the spanking more easily. Whether it is because the wife is not punishing correctly or because the husband isn’t able to surrender, it is clear that many men are not getting what they want and need so badly.

    So if you are a wife, what do you do if your husband shares his need for discipline with you, whether in a fantasy context or in a DD or FLR context? First off, don’t even try to understand why he wants or needs this, because if he doesn’t understand (and he doesn’t) then there is no chance of you understanding! But even if you cannot understand why he needs this, talk with him to try to understand just exactly what it is that he is wanting, and then agree on what things you will punish him for and any other parameters. Assuming he wants “real” punishment, here are some tips for a real punishment with an emphasis on the all-important mental aspects:

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  20. Anon - part 2

    - Decide for yourself that the punishment WILL continue until he reaches surrender. Resolve that you will see this punishment through and give him what he really needs.

    - Start by telling him what he did wrong and how it made you feel. Scold him harshly, because shame is a critical part of punishment. Don’t hold back at all, use a very strong voice, and be as “bitchy” as you can bring yourself to be. Don’t worry, the bitchier you are, the more he will love you for it later! By the time you are done he should feeling horrible about what he has done and be almost relieved to move onto the painful part just to be done with the lecture.

    - Tell him that you are going to give him a long, hard spanking. Make sure that he understands just how painful it is going to be and that it will go on until he is truly sorry, plus some. Use phrases like “until you can’t sit for a week” to make it more intimidating. He needs to understand that it will be more than he can endure and that he will be pushed past the limit of what he can take, but he will have to take it anyway. This will help him to surrender to it later.

    - Scolding can continue through any part of the punishment, including corner time.

    - If you want to give him a warm-up spanking, do it now. It will give him something to think about as he waits for the real punishment to start. Use either your hand or a hairbrush and start softly, but increase the speed and force until it starts to really sting.

    - Now put him in the corner with his bare bottom on display to wait for the real punishment. Make him wait 10-15 minutes which will seem like an eternity to him and he will feel very ashamed, even if he is used to you seeing him naked.

    - Begin the actual punishment. Now it is time to use something much more severe than your hand, like a paddle or a heavy strap. Hit harder than you think you should, with most of your strength. From the first stroke, the pain should be a shock to him and it should build to become completely unbearable. Don’t forget to keep scolding him.

    - At first, he may take it pretty well. You can be proud that he is taking it like the man that he is (after all he is your man!) but both of you should know that the taking it like a man won’t last. You will continue until he is reduced to feeling like a naughty boy, and then punish the naughty right out of him!

    - As you keep punishing him, you will see that he will start to struggle. This is very difficult because you love him and don’t want to hurt him, but keep in mind WHAT HE NEEDS AND WANTS IS A PUNISHMENT SO SEVERE THAT HE DOESN’T WANT IT AT THE TIME.

    - As he struggles more he will tell you that he has had enough and that he has learned his lesson, but let him know that the punishment is going to continue until he is very sorry, and that he is nowhere near sorry enough yet. Continue scolding him, and increase the speed and power of the spanking, showing no mercy. Remember that he has a safeword and he hasn’t used it (and probably won’t since he really needs this).

    - Ignore how red he gets. By the time you are finished, his bottom will probably look horrible and will be swollen and have some bruises. Don’t worry, as long as you are hitting only his bottom it is almost impossible to injure him and he will heal very quickly.

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  21. Anon - Part 3

    - The shame and pain will grow until he simply can’t take any more, and at that point you will see that he will relax and stop fighting the punishment. If you can see that he is not reaching the point of surrendering to the punishment, take a break and put him in the corner to think for a while, and also to regain some sensitivity, since the bottom becomes numb pretty quickly.

    - Continue until he surrenders to the punishment. Unless he says the safeword, the punishment will continue as long and as hard as necessary to bring about this surrender. Note that you are looking for surrender, and not necessarily tears, since some men may cry and others will not. It has nothing to do with how physically or emotionally strong they are, and is just how they are wired. If it is hard for you to see your man cry, remember that in fact some of the strongest men cry much more easily than others who are weaker and less secure.

    - Once he surrenders, it is up to you how long to continue, but don’t stop immediately since this is the most productive part of the punishment and now real learning is taking place. A good rule of thumb is to treat this as the 3/4 point of the punishment so punish him about another 1/3 as much as you have to this point.

    - And now finally the punishment will be over. He will probably be somewhat physically and emotionally drained. It is very important to be close to him and to hold on to him. If you are like me, you will feel closer to him now than at any other time so enjoy the time.


    A real punishment like I just described is very difficult for many wives to administer, since even those who love the thrill of control and who really understand that this is exactly what their husband needs still find it difficult to be so harsh and to do something so painful. They love their husband and don’t want to see him suffer. But no matter how hard it is to do, if your husband has this need and if you fulfill it you will see that he will be much happier, more content, more loving, and more relaxed for weeks or even a month afterwards, which makes a difficult hour of punishment more than worth it for both of you.

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    1. As a disciplinary wife I can say that yes it is very difficult sometimes to punish my husband like this. I know that he needs this, I have seen how it has transformed his attitudes and behavior, I know that he really wants this except for sometimes when it is actually happening, and I know that as soon as it is over he will start forgetting just how painful it was and it won't be long until he is wanting or needing another. As I prepare to punish him I know all these things and usually I can't wait to show him some of the strong emotions I am feeling and let his bottom feel the results of his bad decisions. So I am always ready to punish him good and hard until I am sure that he learned his lesson. But then as the spanking gets harder and I can see that he is really hurting it is so hard to keep going because I love him and just want to stop and forgive him. But when I am able to keep going and give him a lot more than he wants at the time until he just gives up and thinks it will never end it is so powerful. These punishments completely clear everything between us and I am able to let go of all the emotions I am feeling and he feels all the guilt leave and feels like he got just what he needs and I see that it leaves him calm and at peace. After one of these spankings we feel so close to each other unlike any other time. These hard punishments are not easy for me to give but they are so good for our relationship.

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    2. Really great stuff! Thanks for the excellent advice.

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    3. "After one of these spankings we feel so close to each other unlike any other time." Agree completely. Thanks for sharing

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  22. Dan et al,

    This is a fascinating subject. In the past two years my wife has started leading our relationship and spanking me. She is not a natural leader nor is she the dominant type. The encouragement that got things started was focusing on improving our relationship, her gaining respect and resolving differences without long drawn out fights. Big hint guys, make it about her and things important to her! As for her development as the leader of our relationship, that is still progressing. With motivation, even things that don't come naturally can be learned through practice. With us, maintenance spankings serve to reinforce my behavior (which is her number one enjoyment of this) and to give her more experience in an "in charge" position as well as to boost her confidence. She'll never be a natural at this, but it's okay if she can do what is needed, when it's needed. -Tom

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