Saturday, February 20, 2016

The Forum - Vol. 126 - Consensual Non-Consent

Hi all.  Welcome to the Disciplined Husbands Forum. Our weekly gathering of men and women participating or interested in domestic discipline and Female Led Relationships.

What a week.  Last week's topic was devoted to work issues, though I hardly needed the topic to keep my mind fully occupied with work.  I began the year a little stressed out because a huge project ended in December, we were off to a slow start for the new year, and I just don't do well with downtime.  I'm kind of like those Jack Russell Terriers that tear the house apart not because they are bad, but because they are bored.  I've learned that even when we are crushingly busy, that is a much better place for me mentally than having downtime.  Except, I have to remind myself to be careful what I wish for, and that is what I am experiencing right now.  Too much work, too few hours in the day.  But, it is better than the alternative.

It was an interesting topic last week, capped off with a flurry of postings from one Anonymous commenter who I had invited to expand on a comment from a couple of weeks ago.  I think he is the only reader I have encountered who not only uses DD to enhance work performance, but really uses it only for work.  Maybe that suggests a future topic about the extent to which our couples compartmentalize DD, using it to address some categories of issues while excluding others. But, that's not our topic for today.

This week's topic is about consent.   Particularly what I have seen referred to as "consensual non-consent."  I can feel KD Pierre cringing, because he and I have seen this topic take a bunch of twists and turns in another forum.  But, it is a hard one for me to even describe, so I invite KD and others to really pitch in helping drive this one.  In a nutshell, my question is, what role does consent play in your DD relationship, what are its limits, and is it necessary or even desirable?  This topic suggests a pretty big range of subtopics:
  • Was your DD relationship "imposed" on you in some way?  For example, did your wife finally get fed up with your behavior and tell you that she was going to spank you?  If so, did you agree to it readily, or was there some kind of threat or coercion (ending the relationship, perhaps) employed to get you to comply?
  • Have you ever been spanked against your will?  How did that come about?
  • Does your consent to the overall DD relationship imply that you have consented to be spanked whenever your HoH wants, even if you do not think it is "fair" or "deserved" at that time?  By entering into a DD relationship have you, in effect, consented to be spanked whenever she wants, even if you do not consent to a particular spanking?
  • Is lack of consent a positive in your DD relationship?  In other words, is part of the attraction to DD or FLR that that there is an involuntary element to it?  Does part of you need that element of "non-consent" in order for it to feel like you really are being controlled or dominated?

When I first visited the DWC website, there were two stories in the "Fiction" section that really got to me.  One, entitled "Even More" involved the husband asking his wife for the DD relationship.  That seems to be how these get initiated a big majority of the time in the real world, and it was how ours began.  It did get to me, largely because it was realistic,  and it closely fit where I was at the time -- a husband who had discovered DD, was interested in exploring it, but having no idea what I was getting myself into having never had a "real" spanking as an adult.  There was, however, another story, called "Pretty Legs" that involved a much less voluntary scenario.  A wife announced out of the blue that she intended to spank her husband for a particular bit of bad behavior, and that spanking him would be her prerogative going forward.   He was not exactly fully on board with the concept. Here is a quote that sums it up, after he expresses more than a little reluctance and asks her to just forget about the bad behavior:

"At that point Becky's look became determined; her voice quiet, but assured. "I will forget it after I have brought you to tears, dear, then all will be forgiven. But I don't want you to think for one instant that there is ANY way you can avoid my spanking you. There isn't. And furthermore, in the future, I shall make it a practice to spank you whenever I feel you need it, and you will accept it as you did your mother's spankings. Most men can profit from a dose of maternal discipline, and from now on you will be one of the lucky ones.""

That non-consensual aspect was definitely part of what both fascinated and terrified me about DD, and that has not changed that much even today.

So, what role does consent, and "consensual non-consent" play in your DD or FLR relationship?

I also added a couple of polls on how many people know about your DD relationship and who they are, if any.

Hope you have a great week.

Dan

67 comments:

  1. My submission to my wife began as bedroom-based submissive games and erotic spanking. Over time it has evolved into a 24/7 service-based relationship. About two years ago we drew up a contract which defined my role as her househusband and personal slave. Part of the contract gives Mistress the right to punish me as she sees fit. We've never used the phrase "consensual non-consent," but in essence that is how our relationship works. At first Mistress didn't punish me very often or very severely, but over time Mistress has come to love punishing me. She especially likes to cane me. Do i feel the punishment doesn't fit the crime? Yes. I am now published very very harshly for the tiniest infraction. I do not enjoy being beaten. But i do enjoy very much being her slave and being under her control. When we began i had no idea it would go this far. In some ways i am living the old fantasies of my younger days, which i used to keep secret. I can attest that the real version is very different than the fantasies, and at times is very hard to endure. I devote every waking moment to domestic chores and personal service to my owner, and i am punished harshly at her whim. It is hard to explain, but i am very happy anyway.

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    1. Thanks Anonymous. While Master-slave relationships are not the focus of this blog, I guess they probably are one of the strongest illustrations of this week's topic.

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  2. We have a great and long marriage Once in a while because of outragious conduct with my male friends--to vent my wife's anger and frustration--I certainly consent to a pbare ass paddling from her--we both know when a paddling has to settle things--no disagreement It hurts my naked butt however, when things are over we are both fine she has vented her frustrationd and I have triedc to make things right--It is a toal private thing between us any like us??? I have always wondered if I was the only guy??

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    1. Our 1000+ readers a day attest that you are not the only guy, whether in practice or aspiration.

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  3. Here, it's rarely been a 'non-consent' type thing. A few times, the Wife got angry and just let me have it, though i didn't think i deserved it. But generally, no.
    Not much to contribute on this topic, but want to say i've been reading back through older posts slowly... wow, just great things.
    rob (think i'll change from sara, my typical name we use, but seems better fitting on CD blogs)

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    1. Hi Rob. Thanks for the compliment, both to me and all the commenters who make the blog what it is.

      I admit to being confused by the "sara" appellation. At first, I though you were a disciplined wife. Either way -- thanks for contributing.

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  4. I have been spanked a few times for events that I didn't believe were my fault, but I agreed to let my wife decide when and how. None of these been what I would call a severe punishment spanking, but I did enjoy not being the one who initiated the spanking and the power my wife exhibited. This really is what I was wishing for all along. John

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    1. Thanks, John. I agree -- even if it seems "unfair" at the time,there is something oddly satisfying about someone else making those decisions.

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    2. John- Have to admit, it does come as a shock when it's a spanking you didn't "initiate"... quite a change!
      - rob

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  5. At our house my wife and I have had arguments over the years like everyone else. Some have lasted several days or longer. We came up with spanking as a resolution many years ago. The situation is discussed and a spanking is given. When completed the matter is forgiven , forgotten and not ever brought up again. My wife is very fair about things and on a couple of rare occasions she was on the receiving end. This may not work for everyone but does for us.

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    1. Hi Jr. One of the advantages of a DD relationship plainly is settling thing quickly and for good. No sulking, pouting, or hurt feelings in the long run.

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  6. Dan
    The history of how and why Anna and I began DD, is best outlined in a letter Anna posted in your User Stories. It is posted with a September 7,2014 date. It is entitled Anna's story & punishment schedule.
    Like you I have always been one who defied rules of any kind.Accepting her rules and discipline has been what not only saved our marriage but also saved my career.
    Because we have little ones, we have chosen friday evenings for punishment. The boys always spend that
    nite with Anna's folks. I have come to accept the punishment even when I felt it was unfair. As Anna loves to say to the boys, and to me on more than one occasion. There is no such thing as fair!
    To accept the discipline has centered me. That doesn't mean I no longer need these reminders, I know I do. What I have come to appreciate is what DD has done to our lives. If only for a short time, I have a sense of peace. An appreciate the connection this has given both of us. There is great relief when the next day to sit is a rather erotic reminder of my dare i say it? My submission! Even if its for a short time, there is Anna there to remind me of what I need.

    A Grateful Peter

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    1. Hi Peter. I totally agree on the benefits of discipline, especially with respect to centering. I can't say I am quite there in saying it has brought me real peace, but we are all a work in progress, aren't we?

      As for fairness, on those rare occasions when any resentment bubbles up, I try to remind myself that for every spanking I have gotten that wasn't "deserved," I probably did not get 10 others for things that very much DID deserve one. So, on balance, I am sure I am making out quite well where "fairness" is concerned!

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    2. DAN
      Couldn't agree more !

      peter

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  7. Ah! CNC! My favorite!

    When Shilo and I first agreed to be in a BDSM relationship nearly 3 years ago, I would discuss things, and obtain his consent. That didn't last very long. He told me of a desire to be 'helpless' to refuse, and thus began our CNC BDSM relationship. I made sure to obtain written (for my personal records, not a legal thing) permission from him stating that he willfully consented to anything I decided to do to him, and that he could no longer refuse me. This has mostly worked for us, however, at 6'4" and about 250 pounds, he is bigger than me, and logically could fight me off, but his devotion to me and our agreement far outweighs anything, and so he cooperates for the most part.

    Now, for specific answers:

    1. The relationship was not "imposed" and I didn't use coercion in any way.

    2. It would be nearly impossible for me to spank Shilo against his will. There has been initial resistance on occasion, but he has enough common sense to understand that this was what we agreed to. Shilo has sometimes told me after a spanking that he felt it was undeserved, but after discussing it in detail, he has come to understand my reasoning. With our CNC agreement, Shilo understands that I am not obligated to provide a reason, but I usually do.

    3. I think that Shilo truly desired a CNC relationship, because he brought up the idea of us having one to me. All my prior relationships had consent before any activity, and discipline/play was discussed in detail prior to each individual time. At this point, I couldn't imagine going back to how it was before.

    Now, an aside: Circumstances in our life has somewhat put us into semi-retirement with daily/weekly spankings, but Shilo's behavior has also been excellent during this difficult time. In other words, no spank-worthy behavior.

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    1. Hi Merry. Hope all is good with you. This raises several interesting issues. Like, is one way DD is distinguishable from BDSM is the whole issue of consent during the event itself, and the ability to "revoke" consent if it becomes too much? In DD, for it to really be punishment, it may need to go beyond the limits of the moment. But, I plan a whole separate topic on "safe words" soon, so maybe we can follow up then.

      It's also interesting that we've only had a few comments so far, but two of them have called out the use of formal contracts or agreements. Last time we polled that issue, not that many people were using written agreements. I wonder if our readership has changed and they are more prevalent than I last thought?

      Your reference to physical size and ability to resist raises another interesting angle on consent -- in the context of a F/m DD relationship, is consent really at least implied based on ongoing compliance, given that most men could, in fact, successfully resist if they really wanted to?

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    3. Merry- Great pointing out that we men often don't understand at first, but after being explained to us, we agree You were right after all!
      Dan- i've been fascinated when i see large guys being disciplined, submissively acquiescing. i'm a bit smaller than Wife, probably why... :)
      -rob

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  8. Discipline was imposed on me but I have never regretted any of it. It happened the day after a blazing row which was totally down my thoughtlessness and selfishness. In fairness she'd warned me several times about my lack of discipline and that one day she'd be forced to take action but I never took it seriously and never for one moment imagined it would be corporal punishment on the bare.
    That was years ago and since then, we've not had another row like that day. We've had the occasional heated discussion but usually when we're away so concluded when we're back home.
    We've a formal discipline agreement which we review at the beginning of each year and sometimes during the year if changes are needed but they're rare these days. As part of reviewing it, we both sign it which for me confirms my ongoing commitment to discipline and renews my consent.
    As for punishment, I've never felt I've been treated unfairly or punished when I didn't deserve. I'm always given a few hours notice of a disciplinary meeting and the chance to put my side of the story in an open, calm and frank discussion so that when I go to the punishment room I know the punishment and the reason for it which might not be welcome but at least I know it's been thought through.
    Yes I get more than I bargained for sometimes but it wouldn't be discipline if I didn't and the whole point is that she, not I, decides what is necessary so needs the up front consent.
    It's clinical and not to everyone's taste but it's simple and we both like that. When discipline is necessary, the rules are clear, the punishment is decided with no room for debate. It is administered quickly and efficiently leaving both of us feeling better for having cleared the air or putting me back on track.

    Dave

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    1. Thanks, Dave. At some point, I hope you'll share how it was imposed.

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  9. Nice, healthy discussion - Thanks.

    I have a relatively simple-minded approach to this. An imposed corporal punishment lifestyle goes against my grain. However, once a couple has decided to embrace a DWC relationship there is a new paradigm. It is a lifestyle choice, made by both parties. So once it is implemented the wife should have the last word (and first word) on when a spanking will occur.

    I believe that the genuine empowerment of a DWC wife is based on her authority in disciplinary matters. My experience is that long debates about a given incident, or in fact any "second guessing" on my part does not support her.

    So even if I am occasionally indignant about getting a session when I disagree with her, I tell myself to shut up and focus on the big picture; which is that I am blessed many times over to have a DWC wife and my job is to always support her in that.

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    1. That sounds like a very reasonable approach -- focus on the big picture not the occasional indignation.

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  10. OK, as Dan mentioned I have a very strong view on this but please be aware: this is a technical view based on how I see this clinically, logistically, and based solely on accurate terminology.

    "Consensual non-consent" is an oxymoron. And in practical terms, for FLRs, it is utter nonsense.............unless the man is somehow handicapped and cannot escape his Top. Every situation where a guy goes across across his Top's lap, he is giving consent. "Consent" does not mean a person agrees with the reason. All it means is that the person agrees to what is going to happen. You can go over a lap eagerly, reluctantly, even defiantly......but if you are going across it, you have consented to what will inevitably follow.

    The term has come to mean accepting a punishment even when a person doesn't fully understand it or even agree with it. In an FLR DD relationship, that makes sense. But like I said.....unless you are running away and are lassoed.....or shot with a stun gun and restrained. (all of which would be borderline abusive)......you are consenting to the punishment.

    Most of us want this so we are not about to jeopardize it by running away. However, I also know that sometimes there are things that are so emotionally-charged and volatile that we know that if we were to be punished for them, the result would be detrimental to the relationship. I doubt any Top would proceed with a punishment in such a case.....not one where the man was reluctant, but where doing so would end up in packed bags and calls to lawyers. If any woman here says they would proceed with a punishment even in such a situation, and had the physical means to capture and subdue their unwilling partner, and justified doing this based on a prior consent agreement, divorce lawyers be damned......THEN that would be a case of "consensual non-consent". I doubt there are any instances of that in any active relationship though.

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    1. I and my wife totally agree with this view, because it does not matter if you are male or female, once you agree to go over a lap and be spanked, you have consented, if you havn't, and you have been forcibly been pulled over a lap, it is legally termed as assault. Hairbrushedhubby.

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    2. Dan- i hope you talk more about your requesting to be restrained during a spanking. Or perhaps you have... i'm in the process of going back through all these threads. Here, Wife has restrained me (and me Her), but only for sex, not Her spanking me.
      -rob

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    3. Rob,we've done it as a topic, and the responses were pretty varied. Everything from, it helps in giving up to control, to he should be able to stay in place and take it without being restrained. I asked to be restrained thinking it would help be give up control, knowing that I could not get up or resist even if I wanted to. I would characterize it as mildly effective in that respect. It does help to know that I can't get up mid-spanking, but it has not resulted in some cathartic capitulation in which I finally just let it all go.

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  11. Dan, it really doesn't matter whether restraints are used or not. The issue of consent is simple: is the person about to be punished.....even past what they think they can handle without being restrained.....willing to accept it? If they are, there is consent. If the person suddenly has some reason they seriously no longer wish to continue and say so.....either with a safe-word or just clearly expressing a sincere and genuine demand to "stop", they have revoked their consent. Continuing to punish beyond this point is abuse. (Again, I don't mean "ow ow it hurts, please stop, I'll be good". I mean, "this is a serious breach of what I agreed to and if you continue to hit me, this relationship is at an end and I will probably press assault charges") There is a definite difference. Consent to restraints means: 'I know I won't be able to help trying to get away instinctively once you get going....but I know I deserve this, so go ahead and tie me down.'

    I believe if something happened emotionally or physically that seriously changed this willingness, everyone here would expect their retraction of consent to be taken seriously.

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    2. BTW, sorry for picking on you, RM. But, the reaction of some of the commenters to your reluctance to carry through with a caning seems to illustrate this consent issue really well. Including that if we talk about the breach of an agreement, there possibly are two sides to that coin. If there has been an agreement in advance that she decides how long, how hard, when and for what, then is his attempt to back out a revocation of consent, or a breach of the agreement? Or maybe both?

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    3. Good discussion, Dan. OK, let's look at your counterpoints.

      You mention legal irrevocable agreements. If you look into the legalities of consent you will find the law does not recognize it. You can consent, consent, consent......right up until you no longer consent, and at that point, regardless of any prior agreement, consent is revoked. If a person then continues to do 'whatever' they are legally culpable. But that's just the law.

      For the sake of this discussion, let's keep it nice and informal between a couple. While I believe there is a spectrum of possibility with how situations can express themselves, there is a sort of line that regardless of simplicity or complexity seems pretty definitive to me. As I mentioned in my first post, if you want to define "consensual non-consent" as "prior consent" and use it to mean: "I trust you to do what is necessary....even if I don't like it at the time and wish it would stop." I would say that there is still consent in the moment.

      Now if in the moment a person truly MEANS to revoke consent....even for a reason that might later be seen as trivial, then consent is revoked and the Top proceeds at their own risk. If after the Top is finished, the sub realizes their objection was trivial, then I suppose all would be well......but this is a very dangerous game and probably only good for a couple who really knows and trusts each other beyond doubt. If that sub is not happy the Top continued past a revoked consent, all sorts of trouble may follow.

      I can only see this working where a sub is a bit of an in-the-moment coward and knows this about himself, as does his Top. In this case then, the prior consent may act as a bargain between the two. But the Top had better be right.

      I believe though that for most of us, "prior consent" is a sort of promise we make to assure our Tops we are serious about having them in charge, and perhaps also something we tell ourselves in those difficult moments when we would like to say 'no thanks' but know we really shouldn't. It gives us something to fall back on to say, "well i did agree to let her have her way"....and we go along with it. But technically, that's still consent in the moment.

      As for that spectrum. I agree that when it comes to living the life....it's all shades of gray, with all sorts of nuances, but despite there not being a standards board or dictionary committee, words and concepts do have established meanings. What I have noticed more and more is that our society has gotten lazy about being precise in their speech and writing, and because no one wishes to come across as judgmental, there is a broad tolerance for inaccuracy. But, while forgiving inaccuracy is very PC and very typical of our current culture, being precise in language would go a long way to clear expression and clear debate. For me WHAT someone does is up to them. And there's no right or wrong way to live an FLR DD if it works for the couple in question, but what they choose to CALL what they do is not a matter of tolerance. It's a matter of accuracy. And if someone wishes to refer to what they do with a phrase that is not accurate....well I'll accept that they have the right to be wrong. ;-)

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    4. When it comes to how consent is used in sexual situations between adults, I'm afraid my statement is accurate. The law does not recognize "prior consent" in any situation where someone changes their mind about what they are willing to do or have done to them.....even if the person agreed to it 'beforehand'. All one has to do is say, "stop" and the other party ...legally speaking....had better listen. (You can research it if you'd like, but I believe you'll find that is the view.) That view may well be different in other situations....like signing a release form, but not in sexual matters.

      We will probably have to disagree on the accuracy issue since to me it is very clear. Consent is agreeing to something. When a free, able-bodied person submits to a punishment.....even one they don't really ant or like.....they are submitting and consenting in that moment. The fact that they agreed to this beforehand is not pertinent to that moment, so that's why I maintain that ALL consent is in the moment.

      As for the term "submission", you might be surprised (or not) to hear that I agree with your definition of the word. And 'yes' if you refuse something you are not submitting. The way each person lives their submission is very personal but technically you would be right to say that if I don't submit 100%, I'm not really submitting by definition. (This is why in other places and at other times I have called the realism of this lifestyle into question....no matter how real we would like to believe it is.)

      I didn't mean it was lazy to use the wrong words. It's inaccurate. It's lazy to let it go and not really care whether the words are accurate or not.

      (Also, you have given me an idea for a short story or dialog in which two men discussing their drinks encounter an extreme problem in semantics: though each is holding and drinking a beer, one gentleman insists his drink is whiskey. I was toying with the exchange in my head while I was showering before.)

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    5. This is a fascinating dialogue, but honestly both of you are over intellectualizing an experience most DD couples intuitively understand. Consent -non consent is the essence of what adult discipline is all about. People do struggle with it in the beginning sometimes but in a successful DD relationship , that is soon in the rear mirror. Also just my personal perspective, but neither the law nor legal issues belong in an adult DD. If they do emerge the DD will not survive and it shouldn't because its no longer consensual
      Alan

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    6. Alan, I was having similar thoughts today about the drive for defining things. There does seem to be this human drive to define "in" groups and "out" groups and to cubbyhole behaviors into little boxes. Me as much as anyone, though some need to compartmentalize more than others. This comes up a lot in threads where we have discussed distinctions between BDSM, D/s and DD. I see them as distinct activities, and I can kind of sort of define what I see as the differences. Others see one or more as sub-categories of the other. I agree with you that one some level, it's all philosophically interesting, but most people generally intuitively understand what they are doing enough to discuss it rationally. And, since absolutely nothing at all hangs on it (there isn't an official DD membership card that I'm aware of -- you won't get kicked out of the club if someone has not blessed your credentials), does it matter in any real sense?

      KD, we will have to continue to disagree on the law in this area. I'm pretty confident of my understanding of how consent and revocation work, so absent one of us hiring a lawyer to do a legal memo on the subject, I think we are at an impasse on that one.

      On the beer/whiskey metaphor, I don't think it quite fits, because it once again assumes that there is some objective fact or accepted label and one person is just being irrational in refusing to recognize it. The better analogy would be that both men are holding some brown drink. One says it is whiskey, while the other insists it is scotch, and they spend an hour arguing about it, even though scotch is a variety of whiskey. A third guy comes along and says, "Ah, I love brown alcohol," and drinks both glasses without the slightest concern about what they are called.

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    7. Alan: LOL....but we are going to have to disagree on that "over intellectualizing" claim. IMO nothing can be OVER intellectualized. Nit-picking analysis is stimulating and fun. What better conversation to engage in than scrutinizing some topic to death and beyond? ;-)

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    8. And here, i think being "pushed" further is part of the attraction. If it gets legalese, maybe there are other issues :)
      -rob

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    9. You should be aware that some states do not recognize consent as a valid defense to a charge of assault, especially in situations comparable to DD. For example, Massachusetts does not recognize consent as a defense to an assault with a "dangerous weapon," and it has held that a riding crop is such a weapon. Commonwealth v. Appleby, 380 Mass. 296, 303-304, 402 N.E.2d 1051 (1980). New York and Nebraska courts have reached similar holdings. In those states, whether the consent can be revoked is an issue that is never reached because legally, it cannot be given.

      Even where it could be given, as a public policy matter, I would place the chances of a court holding that consent to assault is irrevocable at less than 0.1 percent. To allow it to be irrevocable would create a horrible precedent that could place people in great danger.

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  12. The nature of our DD regimen has always been wholly consensual - if one-sided, in the sense that she decides what transgressions require punishment (and how it will be delivered), but I never question the verdict. I have a fair idea of what I can expect for different sorts of misdemeanors, and so willingly submit to what I know I deserve. I have more than once experienced some harsh punishments - but never beyond what I could reasonably endure (even if it made me cry hot tears - and left my derrière sore and marked for two or three days) - and I never forget to thank her on my knees afterwards...

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    1. Consensual but one-sided . . . that seems like a great way to describe it.

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  13. Our relationship is probably best considered "limited DD." We are equal partners and make decisions by discussing things and finding agreeable solutions. However, since I need and want control and discipline in my life, I am punished for real infractions involving several agreed-upon behaviors. While she has complete discretion about when I deserved to be punished, and what the punishment should be, punishable infractions are limited only to those things we have previously agreed upon.

    Even though the punishments are mostly to fulfill my cravings, we both benefit from the improved behavior and better attitude I exhibit, as well as from the rapid resolution of problems; rather than days of lingering bad feelings, the air is immediately cleared, and the only remaining bad feelings are those experienced when I sit down for several days following punishment.

    The disciplinary aspects of our relationship are based on consensual non-consent in a way, because my consent is limited only to the whole disciplinary relationship. At any time, I could say that I no longer wish to be punished, and the disciplinary relationship would end, without affecting our marriage (since she is primarily doing this for me, even though it is somewhat exciting for her as well). However, for as long as I wish to be in a disciplinary relationship, I have no control whatsoever over individual punishments. We do use safewords, so in fact in case of extreme need I can stop a punishment session. However, even that does not get me out of the punishment, since at a later time the punishment will be repeated from the beginning, so any punishment I have already received will ultimately be received twice.

    So everything is consensual, as we we believe it should be, but I really have no say in when, how, or how hard I will be punished unless I want to lose this special part of our relationship. In this way, it still feels quite non-consensual and realistic, and I have a strong incentive to accept even those punishments I don't necessarily want or feel that I deserve at the time.

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    1. Thanks, Anonymous. The way you have engineered it seems like a great set of overlapping consent issues. You consent at the onset of the relationship, and you can revoke that consent but in doing so the consequence may be no more DD relationship. Similarly, you can revoke permission for a particular punishment, but the consequence is either a repeat session or no DD relationship. It is NOT that you successfully get out of it or limit it. It seems like a good way to maintain some limits but without allowing DD to become a game that you can switch on and off as you like.

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    2. Yes, the disciplinary arrangement was "engineered" this way precisely to allow loss of control within reasonable limit, and to make everything more real. In the end, we are compelled to consent by our innate desire to lose control, so for those of us with these needs/desires, not consenting is really not an option.

      - ZM

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    3. ZM- i really like the way you've said all this... sounds familiar, perhaps! :)
      -rob

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  14. This last commentary expresses pretty much everything I would have to say too.

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  15. I think this is just a dressed up term for 'desiring to lose a dominance test' (in order to feel your mates' power).

    The reason the 'consensual' word (wrongly) worked its way in is for a few reasons:

    1. because it is desired, which has permissive connotations even though in this case, it isn't permissive.

    2. consent is considered sacred in society, and anything contrary to it is considered immoral and possibly illegal, so people go at great lengths to rescue the idea and have their cake and eat it as far as having the moral purity of consent but also the deep-level dominance that they crave.

    3. The phenomenon of psychological compulsion isn't acknowledged. True consent must be without duress, but wherever there is an opposing will to match or exceed your own there is compulsion. The greater the ease with which one assumes a manner of authority and a tone of command in excess of your own, the more deeply this compulsion is felt.

    I think the better term would be 'desired non-consent'. I think the coveted, dangerous fantasy that embodies this is for a man to try and revoke consent or resist and without physical coercion, end up over her knee at the end of it.

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    1. "Desiring to lose a dominance contest" . . . I really like that. Thanks!

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  16. Dan;

    Thank you for the blog post. My thoughts are not as clearly developed as yours and KD's, but here goes. When Domestic Discipline is used in a marriage or other intimate relationship, there was an agreement between a wife and her husband (or girlfriend and her boyfriend), at one time, that it would be used to solve problems that arose between them. That agreement is pivotal. Without that agreement none of the other issues that you and KD raise would ever happen. Most likely, that agreement is (or closely resembles) the “consensual non-consent”. And, because there is nothing preventing revocation, it is clearly revocable.

    I believe that KD's point is also valid, that there is consent to each punishment at the time it is delivered. It is also revocable. So both levels of consent need to be present, the agreement between the parties that DD would be used when needed, and the agreement of the parties that the discipline would be used for the given infraction and at the given time.

    You mention a couple of Disciplinary Wife's Club fiction stories in your original post. Three of the posts under the Disciplinary Wives Club, Real People link (all listed sequentially and all written by women) are also very interesting to me and on point here, I think. The first story, by Bridget, “About Boys and Men” discusses a great back story and then discusses the Discipline used in her marriage. In describing her relationship, Bridget states:

    “Time has moved on and one reason I'm writing today is to share with you that my husband falls in with my interests and even enjoys getting a good spanking or beating even every now and then; well, whenever necessary!

    We find that it fits well within out relationship, which is very happy and loving. I get to maintain my interest in seeing a boys bottom redden; and its much more fun doing it yourself, let me tell you. What's more he is usually incredibly turned on by it -- and so am I, so that's good!”
    In these two paragraphs, Bridget is discussing the consensual agreement – that domestic discipline would be used, and the specifications regarding that discipline. Bridget then discusses how she deals with the lack of consent at the time of the discipline, “Very occasionally he has absolutely refused to accede to my request to be spanked, and this just means that when I finally do it to him I make him feel it and I choose a time when I feel he would rather not be disciplined.” Continued...

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    1. You picked three of my personal favorite DWC stories. I agree that the Military Duty Calls story is very hot. I'm not entirely sure why, but it is.

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  17. ...Continued

    The second story, written by Tristen is “Military Duty Calls”. The story is actually a series of four letters written to Aunt Kay, (with a Followup) from Tristen to Aunt Kay. the Web Mistress of The Disciplinary Wives Club”. The story references, but does not include the responses from Aunt Kay. The letters discuss Tristen's desire to ensure that disciplined is maintained in her home while she is serving in the Military overseas. The followup (which is extremely hot) discusses her Mother and Father's use of Domestic Discipline. Tristen's Mother introduced the idea of Domestic Discipline to her Father by “inviting him” to a spanking:

    “When Dad saw her putting her hairbrush into her bag, he made some comment about 'not sparing the rod'. Mom assured him that she wasn't going to and then added that she had meant what she'd said the previous evening, repeating her assertion that he might benefit from a dose of the hairbrush, and that she would be happy to oblige him once she had dealt with Charles (Tristen's Husband).

    Dad looked at her as if he didn't quite know what to say, and so Mom continued by telling him that she had to leave right away but that she should be back home in half an hour, so, she suggested, if Dad was interested in trying it out, he should wait for her return in their bedroom, with his trousers down.”

    Clearly, Tristen's Mother and Father did not have a prior agreement that Domestic Discipline would be used to settle problems between them. However, Tristen continues:

    “On her return home, Dad wasn't in his usual place in the lounge - in front of the television, and so Mom went straight to their bedroom with her hairbrush in her hand, and there he was, waiting for her, trousers at his ankles. Crossing to the bed she sat down and beckoned for him to stand in front of her. "So you are interested in sampling my hairbrush on your bottom?" she asked and he replied that he was.”

    So, Mom got consent, from Dad to use discipline at that particular time. (He was “Invited” to a spanking! Wow! That is so Hot! And Empowering – to both parents!)

    The third story is “Dad's are not Exempt” by Priscilla. Priscilla states:

    “So now I spank my husband like Mom used to spank dad. He needs a spanking several times a year and I do my handiwork in the basement of our house also. I use a paddle or a strap for general laziness and I always leave him bruised and sore for a few days. I save the cane for more serious infractions like the time he got a speeding ticket or if he treats me disrespectfully in front of friends. It never ceases to amaze me how a session with the cane improves his behavior. In general our yard is always immaculate and he has become a very good housekeeper and cook. My mother definitely knew what she was talking about!”

    Although she does not indicate that there is consent, it is certainly implied. This story probably does not add anything to my point, but I am a Dad, I just thought it was really hot, it is short and it is worth the time it takes to read it, so I included it here.

    As usual, All copyrights belong to the Disciplinary Wives Club. Thanks again for the posting, Dan. Good Topic!

    Jack

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  18. Dan,
    Wanted to add a reference to a blog now inactive but still ( I think) available on line called Husband really spanked by his Wife". Its very relevant to this discussion because it deals with his submission to spankings from his wife that he initially describes as not wanted and non consensual. One needs to read the whole blog to understand how complex the issue of consent is looking at a relationship from outside. From the beginning he acknowledges he deserves the spankings and his relationship if not him ( that's vague) benefits from them. At the end he seems to admit he has been consenting to the spankings but feels strongly his wife only has that authority. Reading the blog I think most readers felt he was consenting all along but was in denial about it. Certainly there was no question about his physical capacity to resist although whether he could psychologically or not was a real question.Spanking really motivates this guy and by the time the blog ended it seemed like he had grown a lot from his wife's discipline. In any case the blog is really worth a look for insight into the complex questions raised about consent.
    Alan

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  19. Hello Dan,
    You have introduced a lively topic. If you asked most women in control they would say consent is established well before that first real discipline. But its a once and done thing.My authority is so well established now that I don't believe Jay would defy me under any circumstances ( the one possibility is that I decided to spank him in front of another male) Jay realizes as do I what benefits we receive from DD and he is not going to risk that even if he thinks he is being punished unfairly or too severely. ( which to be honest has happened) So I am saying once a husband gives his wife the authority ( and responsibility) to discipline,that authority is permanent and non revocable.There was a defining moment for us when I realized I really was in charge and that probably happens to other couples. Once it does, no wife is going to give up her authority as long as she feels it is needed in her marriage.
    Marisa

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    1. Marisa, you say your husband wouldn't risk losing the benefits of DD by revoking consent, but what if he honestly no longer saw or desired those benefits? You also say: "no wife is going to give up her authority as long as she feels it is needed in her marriage." What if continuing with DD jeopardizes that marriage?

      I also wanted to ask if your husband is physically capable of refusing a punishment? If so, wouldn't you say his acquiescence is an indication of consent in that moment, no matter how reluctant he may be about it?

      Lastly, I think in the context of how most of us practice DD, you assertion that consent is not revocable strikes a chord of resonance with us all emotionally. However, the legal reality is that consent is always revocable. (Suppose a woman says, "oh honey, I love you so much I'll have sex with you whenever you want!" and one day he initiates a romp when it's the last thing she desires. She even tries to fight him off and run away, but he catches her and has sex with her despite her protests. The law would say he raped her and his defense that she told him previously that she would always have sex with him would not exonerate him. This is why a wife in a marriage can still claim 'rape'. Consent has to be in the moment or it is revoked. If you look at the Spanner case in England and the overall sentiment here with regards to consent involving what the law would regard as sado-masochistic practices, you will see there is reluctance to accept 'consent' as a defense to acts of "sexual"'violence' and yes, they would consider punishing someone 'violence'. If active consent is not always a defense, 'prior consent' doesn't stand a chance. You can Google/Wiki this if you are curious.)

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    2. Hello KD,
      You certainly are one for hypotheticals. But I will try to answer some of your questions.Yes I believe my husbands consent is ongoing and a main point I was making is that we both believe the authority he gave me is permanent as is his consent to it. If either of us stopped believing DD was right for us , we would of course stop but I have a very good imagination and can't imagine that happening given who both of us are.Finally your implied analogy between the context of rape and the context of F/M spousal spanking isn't convincing. " Real rape" ( yes I dare use that term because its overdue to smarten up the PC crowd on that)- real rape is forcible rape and no one is ever forcing a 195 pound body builder to go over his 105 pound wife's lap for a spanking.Finally I am not responsible for the inanities of English law.BDSM isn't my thing but anyone who want to practice it has a right to do so given the consent of their partner. Government should stay out of the bedroom and as far as possible out of the lives of citizens ( no I am not voting for Donald Trump) Thanks for letting me get a few things off my chest It may not sound like it but I do find your comments stimulating.
      Marisa
      Marisa

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    3. Marisa;

      Thank you for your reply. I agree with everything you said. I find your comments stimulating.

      I think KD is not wrong either - but he seems really zealous (overboard, perhaps?). But I think his points are well thought out, and presented well, are very focused, and clearly are very important to him.

      Thank you, and Anna both for sharing. The amount of testosterone on from the contributors of this topic is so thick we could not cut it with a knife. The comments from women are greatly appreciated. Things become clearer to me when the women comment.

      So, Thank you both again.

      Jack

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    4. Marisa- Agreeing here, too. Can't picture (here) "one and done"... once a Wife sees you over Her lap, things cannot be the same! Obviously room to discuss and negotiate (hopefully), but as a spanked male i know She immediately got the upper hand.
      -rob

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    5. Marisa, In reading your response it seems like we actually agree. Everything you (or anyone) has said about how the roles, need, and dynamic creates a situation where authority becomes more established is very true. It is true for me and Rosa as well. Obedience is expected. Her authority is established, and I acquiesce to her decisions on punishment even when I don't fully understand them.

      I warned in my first post here that this issue is one of semantics and precision for me, not a contradiction of how many of us have come to live.

      My point is simple: like you said.....a 195lb guy cannot really be 'forced' to endure something he doesn't want (hell....my own mother understood this) nor should he. What 'should' happen is a submissive guy listens to what his Top says and trusts her judgement. But in doing so, he is consenting in the moment.

      A fine point maybe to some, but an important distinction nonetheless.

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    6. Marisa, In reading your response it seems like we actually agree. Everything you (or anyone) has said about how the roles, need, and dynamic creates a situation where authority becomes more established is very true. It is true for me and Rosa as well. Obedience is expected. Her authority is established, and I acquiesce to her decisions on punishment even when I don't fully understand them.

      I warned in my first post here that this issue is one of semantics and precision for me, not a contradiction of how many of us have come to live.

      My point is simple: like you said.....a 195lb guy cannot really be 'forced' to endure something he doesn't want (hell....my own mother understood this) nor should he. What 'should' happen is a submissive guy listens to what his Top says and trusts her judgement. But in doing so, he is consenting in the moment.

      A fine point maybe to some, but an important distinction nonetheless.

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    7. Stipulated.
      Marisa

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  20. Marisa
    You are soooooooo Right ! By the time Peter and I got to the point of establishing how WE wanted to
    live our lives it has not been a problem. As time passes I see even in his responses here, the growth and
    change in Peter.
    anna

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  21. Dan,

    This is a fascinating discussion. And I like the analogy of: scotch, whiskey and brown alcohol. My only input is towards your questions: Have you ever been spanked against your will? How did that come about?

    I am the person that does not live in a FLR, but asked that my wife spank me to perform better at work. I have to self report and my report is as much about how I am feeling (despondent, good, etc...).

    Three of our rules are: 1) I cannot object to being punished; 2) When she punishes me we don't talk about it for 24 hours (give or take a few); and she decides the time of the punishment.

    On day I got a very significant traffic ticket. Before it was over, I had to get an attorney to get it reduced to a speeding ticket. But the speeding ticket caused our car insurance to go up. So not only did I take a safety risk, but it also cost my family significant money.

    The night that I told her about the ticket she spanked me extremely hard for that offense. I was just a few strikes from using my safe word. My bottom was marked for weeks.

    During the punishment I was mentally torn. She was punishing me for an activity that was outside of our agreement and she was using our rules against me. BUT I had done something that was clearly risky; directly impacted my family; and punishment would hopefully clear the air.

    The 24 hour rule actually paid off, because we both had time to process what happened. During that 24 hour period it was validated that the punishment had greatly reduced the ill feelings that she had towards me. By the time that we discussed the punishment my wife had recognized that she had stepped over the line and apologized. My position was that our rules were only about work and unless she was willing to be spanked, then it needs to remain focused on my work. However, it was evident that her punishing me did greatly reduce the normal ill will that occurs when a spouse does something wrong. Consequently, I did tell her that if she ever thought that she wanted to punish me for anything outside of our rules, we need to talk about it and come to an agreement. It has never happened again, so who knows how this will play out.

    Joe2

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  22. Dan,

    This is off topic, but:

    I agree that our wives do have a common issue with not spanking as hard as we think we should be spanked, but that is a good thing. Because they grow into the experience. I think most of our wives would be happy if they did not have to spank us, but our desire is a tool that they use to make us better.

    My wife is not a mind reader, so she has to use her experience and watch my reaction to being spanked to decide on when to stop. My problem is that I need to be spanked harder when I start to feel overwhelmed at work; which is a precursor to lowered performance. Having said that, to correct my "feelings" requires that she carry me to the edge; which is personally harder for her. It is harder for her, because I haven't done anything wrong yet. The norm is to: 1) spank to correct, not to prevent and 2) harder for punishment than prevention. And I have turned that paradigm on its head.

    To make this paradigm shift work, I have to clearly tell my wife what is going on that is causing these thoughts, what I am thinking; and where my emotions are. I have to do this before she spanks me.

    One big complication (and many of you have mentioned this before) is that how we physically feel pain changes from day to day. I don't about the rest of you, but for no apparent reason, some days she can cover my bottom in bruises and I still feel the need for more and other times I'm ready to stop just when she is getting warmed up. But I since I know that my wife is doing this for me, I will take too much pain over not being spanked. Spanking is a tool that works for me: my performance at work is much better; which makes everything else better. Besides, how many fetishes actually benefit our lives.

    Joe2

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  23. Hi Dan,

    I've been away from he screen for a spell recently and hadn't seen this post until just now. What a timely topic, at in the subhubphx household.

    I've never been one to prattle on and on about definitions of things because i believe that each of our situations is unique enough that a single "definition" can mean multiple thins to different people. That being said, I believe that term consensual non-consent is a term that is as universal as they come. In the context of spanking, it implies that consent from the spanked is simple not required, or considered, again in the context of a FLR/FLM. To that point, essentially, anytime any of us are subject to a spanking, i believe it is a consensual non-consent situation, in that even though we may not like it when we know we are going to be spanked, we accept our fate because we know we've screwed up in some fashion, enough to warrant a spanking.

    Perhaps the "other" kind of consensual non-consent you are referring to is the kind that happened to me recently. I am a dutiful, submissive husband and almost always know that even if I am correct in a discussion (dare I say disagreement), my commitment to my submission to my wife will mostly allow me the internal comfort necessary to just yield to the higher power, and thus demonstrate my dutifulness and submission. Recently my Mistress Wife and I were discussing an issue we were having with our child at school. Mistress was telling me about something that happened that day at school and decided to take the "I'm going to take 20 minutes to get to the point" route. She knew tat the end of the story everything turned out well for our child. I did not have that luxury and at that particular moment, all I wanted to know was that everything was fine with our child. I became impatient and essentially blurted out "GET TO THE POINT!" Mistress did NOT like that at all and ended our conversation abruptly, leaving me still without the knowledge of the status of our child (end of the story). We snipped at each other for a while and she agreed with me .... she should've told me the outcome of the story so i wouldn't be sitting there worrying about a shitty ending. I was still steamed about and I wasn't able to leave well enough alone and continued with my raised-voice demeanor and anger.

    Mistress had had enough and while I was railing on about this, that and the other, she went for her paddle and came to me and ordered my hands to the table. I was in no mood to "play" at this point but I knew immediately that this was going to be one of those situations where I was going to continue to be upset, and continue to misbehave until she was able to paddle some sense into me .... and then some.

    It was one of those rare occasions where my true submission was tested. I thought, albeit only for a nano-second, about physically not letting her spank at this particular moment. I instinctively (now) understood that doing so would be the ultimate display of disrespect in our FLM and would go against the vey vows of our marriage. So, I turned and faced the table, put my hands on it and she swiftly pulled down my pants and began "correct my behavior" on my bare ass.

    Normally when I am spanked, even harshly for punishment, I end up with an erection. Such was not the case in this situation. I stood there, snarling and snorting with each swing of the paddle against my naked flesh ..... and it HURT!

    When she was done she tossed the paddle on the table in front of me, told me to put it away and left the room.

    It took me less than 2 minutes to calm down and when I did, I had such a feeling of gratitude and love for my wife that I called her back into the room and with my pants still lowered and my crimson ass still visible and stinging, I knelt before her, wrapped my arms around her waist and buried my head in her belly. I apologized profusely and thanked her intently for giving my the spanking that I had just received.

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    1. Sub-hub,

      When you said "I'm going to take 20 minutes to get to the point," I had to laugh.

      It must be genetically ingrained in women to do that. And it must be genetically ingrained in men to want to say in the same situation, "There were some problems at school today, it got sorted out. You want something to drink?"

      I learned a long time ago, "I have to pretend to care, because I give a s$%t." If I miss five minutes of a movie, my wife will spend six minutes telling me what I missed. I try to listen, if that fails I try to mentally resolve a paradox between a scene in Star Trek season one and season two. But sometimes, I blurt out- "did the good guys win?"

      It isn't going to change, we just have to accept and find some interesting paradoxes to be resolved at a future date.

      Joe2

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    2. @ Joe2 Not ALL women have that gene!

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    3. Merry,

      You are of course correct, but many more have it than not. Just like not all men are "of few words." We need to accept and appreciate the differences between the sexes. Neither are superior to the other- just different. But it doesn't mean we can't laugh at the differences. It makes life fun.

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  24. Hi Subhub. I know what you mean. The submission is tested and deepened in those moments where you really, truly do not want the spanking but do it anyway.

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  25. I found dating women who were for lack of better word dominant what I liked. My wife mentioned when we first got married that a spanking is what I needed, I found myself agreeing with her. She layed it out, not sexual, a good sound spanking, not knowing the full extent I agreed. The first time I went over her lap I quickly knew she meant business and it did leave me to think twice in the future. Most spankings are done in the bedroom, always over the bare bottom, always with the hand first and then hairbrush, paddle. Always face the wall afterwards. Only on a few occasions have I been spanked away from home, the recent was a visit to her mother's. When the spanking ended, my wife was so mad she took me to the kitchen, her mother smiling as I walked in crying, it was first think in the morning and I had my pajamas on. I face the wall, my wife bared my bottom for her mother to see. So spankings are punishment, I accept them, I've leaned I need them, also know few women will use this method, I'm thankful my wife does.

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  26. With my first girlfriend, the spankings came quickly ( a month or so) but real consent as used here was a work in progress for a while ( maybe two years or longer)We talked about it as her authority rather than consent and both of us thought of her authority as something that was being established one spanking at a time.I did resist many spankings and a few I refused to take causing real friction between us even leading to a breakup of several months duration. One night I did something very bad and when she found out I was told she was coming over and I would be " severely punished". I said no and even locked the door but she used her key and not long after I lay over her lap, crying for the first time after receiving what still might be the hardest spanking I ever received ( except for post ejaculations spankings which came much later)That night her authority was established and consent was made permanent as I never resisted a spanking from her again ( or tried to get up during one)Before that night I had consented to being spanked one spanking at a time but after that night her authority to discipline at will was firmly established.I think her will was greater than mine and when she decided I was going to be spanked, I was spanked and that took all of the resistance out of me. With my wife her authority was recognized before the first time she spanked me, partly because she had been in a previous DD and knew what she wanted and probably partly from my experience with my girlfriend from earlier. I do believe once a man has been spanked by one woman it is easier to obey and accept the authority of another woman who decides to spank you. But maybe everyone goes through the early parts of it when rebellion has not been spanked out of you.
    Alan

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