Saturday, May 16, 2015

The Forum - Vol. 49 - Consistency

Hi all. I hope you had a great week and are heading into a fun and/or relaxing weekend. 

This week's topic relates to something we've talked about under the general heading of "More," i.e. what more we want from our DD and FLR relationships.  The "more" in the case of this week's topic is "consistency."  What role does consistency play in your relationship?  Is DD more an event, or a process?  Meaning, is it something that happens sporadically for specific infractions, or is it something that is part of a more consistently applied disciplinary or FLR regimen?

One theme I would like to see us explore a bit is, for the Disciplinary Wives, is it hard to be consistent, or harder NOT to be?  This is an issue Rhiannon has explored on her blog, and she took my own thoughts on this in  a different direction.  I had always assumed that being the leader in an FLR-oriented relationship, or doling out DD punishments consistently, could be a very difficult thing, because of the need to be "on" all the time.  Always, or at least very often, in that control position and that leader mindset.  But, as her blog points out, the converse may be even more of a problem.  The on again, off again ebbs and flows might keep the disciplinary wife always on edge and never quite getting into a personal zone where she really feels in control.

I know this is a broad topic, but that seems to work well with this group.  Throwing out a general theme and letting people take it where they will.

I hope you all have a great weekend.

Dan

45 comments:

  1. The first time my wife decided to put me across her lap I thought she was joking, this was foreplay, only thing it was not. She was laying the foundation of our marriage, she was committed to it, and in time I understood the love she had for me and how to deal with my childish behavior. There is no time of the week, or day, could be weeks in between spankings or just a day or two. Spankings just don't happen at home, on trips, she is the best thing that has happen to me. She is serious, I have trouble sitting afterwards, I do put on a show while being spanked, I get wall time. The worse spanking was while on vacation, I knew I could be heard, she really warmed my bare bottom at the hotel. Dinner that evening I squirmed, she smiled and said have you learned your lesson young man and I looked at her and said yes. The waitress, an older lady noticed my squirming and softly said, my husband is given a pillow to sit on, my wife smiled and said this is part of the punishment. Hand or hairbrush the waitress asked, my wife said hand this time, hairbrush does wonders she said, I softly said I know. Best be a good little boy as she took our order. So best way to say it, this is the way of life that suits my wife and suits me also.

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    1. That was a great conversation. Thanks, anonymous.

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  2. Dan

    The answer to this question I feel depends on where one is in their marriage. Because we have two sons about to enter puberty I am very aware of how I speak to Peter and how he speaks not only to me, but to our boys. I want our sons to grow to be gentlemen. I want them to have manners and grace. Most of all I want Peter and
    I to demonstrate a marriage that is a partnership. They are both aware that I am very much in control in the house. Peter has told them we are sharing the labors of house, work and home. That each of us takes on the
    chores we are best suited for.

    As far as Domestic Discipline goes, with two boys around that isnt always easy. As I have mentioned before
    we try to schedule punishments on the weekends when the boys go to see his folks. On occasion when they are here and Peter has done something ( an example was hanging up on me one sunday from his office) I have
    slipped down to his office and punished him on the spot.

    If I have any problem is that I personally dont like to have Peter try to postpone a punishment. I spank only when he is out of control . He knows that. There are times that a punishment is put on hold but both of us agree that is the least effective way to curb his attitude. As time passes it gets easier Peter knows I wont
    forget even if his behavior has changed before the punishment.

    Rereading this I ask would I behave much differently if we didnt have the boys. I dont think so. Always I adore Peter and want to remind him at times how impressive he is when he controls his temper.

    anna

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    1. Hi Anna. I suspect that the presence of children is the #1 impediment to consistency for most couples. It also probbably is more difficult if the disciplinary relationship starts when the kids are older and introduction of that kind of relationship would be a change. But, over the last couple of years of hearing people's views on this, I am beginning to wonder whether we all over-estimate the extent to which kids would be surprised or harmed, or even very interested. We have heard from various people who are relatively open either the DD or FLR aspects of their marriage, and from adults whose own dad's were disciplined. I have yet to hear any of them say that there has been any noticeable damage done as a result. I will probably add this as a topic again soon. We've addressed it before, but we have several newly active commenters including more disciplinary wives, so maybe it is time to open it up for discussion again.

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    2. Dan

      The point I was also hoping to make is that whatever they may see about my relationship with Peter isnt the same for every man and woman. By the same token I would hope that they figure out things between Peter and I , the goal would be to teach them that for eveyr man and woman the interaction is different.

      Anna

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    3. I don't think the issue with kids is whether it would harm them, but their lack of understanding that it isn't a cultural norm in the wider world and whether they could exercise discretion in not gossiping to other children about it, after which it's not long until adults hear as well. Unless, of course, you don't mind the whole town knowing.

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  3. We believe a FLR and DD are both process rather than event. It’s lifestyle choice, if you like and has to be all-encompassing to work.
    Our DD definitely needs to have more consistency in terms of the regime itself. We occasionally re-connect in our FLR but too often, as I’ve said many times before, we bow to outside influences and once the connection is broken, it’s really difficult to get back to where we were before.
    That means we repeatedly have to kick-start the entire process, at which point we implement DD for specific infractions. Event rather than process.
    Most of it is my fault as I struggle to cope with a FLR as well as everything else going on around me. Not enough headspace – a male who can’t mutli-task!
    But Mistress also gets side-tracked and has admitted finding it really hard having to be the one in authority 24/7 to make it work.
    And I’m the first to put my hand up to admit I’m not a very well behaved submissive, which doesn’t help.
    But I also believe that if both us had the freedom to explore our FLR fully then we would have no issues at all.
    In my opinion, domestic discipline should not different to the kind of discipline many of us were subjected to at school or in the home.
    Everyone knew the rules, and the consequences of over-stepping boundaries. There was real consistency in the application of discipline because teachers and parents understood children continually push boundaries to explore limits of what is acceptable. If no one showed them the boundaries, children would never learn any discipline or respect.
    As adults we’re well aware of the limits and we know the rules of our own FLR, but we also know – even though perhaps I shouldn’t admit it - that if discipline is not enforced, that side the relationship might ebb and flow but the actual loving relationship, that is there whether you have an FLR or not, will not be affected.
    I know we need more consistency, a lot more, to make our FLR really effective. The only way to achieve it is by staying committed and confronting issues as they arise – and working consistency from both sides.
    If both partners really want to pursue a FLR, then the solution is simple – set goals and keep striving for more and more consistency. It’s what we are working towards.

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    1. The process you describe of making progress, getting interrupted, then starting over, is probably familiar to many.

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  4. "Consistency" is very much the way things work in our marriage, in the sense that I always know when - and why - I can expect to be spanked, caned or whipped... to the point that I may anticipate what is sure to be coming by fetching the hairbrush (or some other 'tool') and/or by lowering my trousers to offer my derrière to the 'treatment' we both know I deserve.

    L.

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  5. Consistency has been difficult from the beginning. Shilo is and was well-mannnered from the time we met till now. Yes, he's had his moments, but overall his behavior is wonderful.

    I wound up making rules so I could find a reason for discipline. He wanted/expected it daily, and while I had no objections, making time for it was a headache. My consistency sucked. When his illness took over, it made things worse. It's been MONTHS since I've spanked him. This brings me to an interesting conclusion/observation: I'm a Dominant and I'm polyamorous, and besides Shilo, I have my long-term partner Stitch living with me. Stitch is not submissive, but I find myself disciplining him more often these days. I don't spank him, but when he does things I don't like, I will make him sit in a chair while I lecture him using a quiet voice. This is a relatively new thing with us, but it really works. He's better mannered, and he will come to me later and apologize.

    So meet Merry the quiet disciplinarian. No spanking for now, but just as effective.

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    1. Hi Merry. Quiet discipline would probably be the way to go with submissives who also are masochists. That's the problem sometimes with spanking as discipline -- if you want it, it is actually discipline?

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    2. It could be. I just find it funny how well it's working with my non-submissive partner.

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  7. Over time I have learned to behave according to Rosa's guidelines and even broken some minor but annoying habits. The thing is I know that if I crossed the line on something, she would not hesitate to punish. However, in recent months I have been working around the house at a feverish pace to try to finish projects that either Rosa asked for or that we both want done. When I get into my 'project-mode' I tend to have a relentless pace and work without much of a break. Some of the projects have been very physically demanding and some have had to be done in very hot and humid weather. When she gets home she can see that I am wiped out.

    At times she has helped out and I know I've been a bit snippy with her. Normally I would half-expect a trip to the bedroom and across her lap.....but she has just given me warnings and seems to see that the snippiness is not extreme but occurs under conditions that are. As a result she tends to let things go because, as she has told me, she is so pleased with the amount of effort I'm putting into making our home pleasing to her.

    For example, she asked if there was something I could do to the side portion of the yard next to a window she likes to look out of. This location was a sort of dead spot with out very utilitarian-looking compost bin occupying center stage. Since Rosa is from Peru and we both love succulents. I turned the area into a succulent garden with a bamboo-shaded overhand and table and wood chips around a sort of dirt-filled stone 'well' with succulents growing out of the top and sides. She loves it! But it was a lot of work and sometimes i would get be wiped out and be less attentive than usual. So...what should she do? Spank me? She would feel awful. In her place I would as well. But then it does interrupt consistency.

    Balance is key....but balance is tricky. I guess the overall dynamic is intact and we both know who the boss is and what consequences can occur if I truly misbehave. It's just that we can both be torn between thinking discipline is needed or a bit of balanced laxity.

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    1. Hi KD. I think that is, in fact, the tension. Consistency versus balanced laxity. But, I think it's also the difference between some femdom fantasy and DD as it is probably practiced in most real world settings with real couples where real life often intrudes.

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    2. There is a lot of truth to that. And one thing I would point out is the majority of guys seeking and practicing FLR seem sincere in their intent....if not angelic in their execution. But, if a woman knows her guy is compliant....if not always obedient, that has to mean something. I think about the bold fact that whether or not I behave perfectly or misbehave, and whether or not there is time and inclination to carry out punishment, the option is always there for Rosa. If she decides "enough is enough!" and orders a punishment, even if she let a bunch of things slide beforehand, she KNOWS I will comply. Her authority, even if it fluctuates with mood and circumstances, is still there 24/7. That is the power she ultimately enjoys too. She can be merciful, or playful, or forgiving if she chooses to, because she knows if she chooses to NOT be, and chooses to punish hard and strictly, she can.

      Someone mentioned how FLR-DD should be akin to old-fashioned parenting. Well, I had a strict mother....but heck, even SHE did not punish me every time I did the slightest thing wrong. She didn't have to. I wasn't defying her, just messing up here and there. If I did defy her, she bring the wrath of hellfire down upon me. So if I was generally obedient, and compliant and contrite if she did punish me, I don't think she felt the need to be a "disciplinary robot". Our wives and girlfriends probably feel the same. They know they can be strict if they want to, so they probably don't need to prove anything by being mechanically strict in every instance.

      Oddly enough, if we guys were kids again....we'd probably be more grateful for that kind of reasonable mercy than we are since we are now adults actively seeking regular discipline.

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    3. Hi Dan and KD,
      What you both are saying in different ways seems very important in the context of consistency. Whether a women spanks or doesn't in a specific disciplinary situation is much less important than that she knows ( and so do you) that she has the power to order and carry out a spanking if she decides. She also has the power to waive one maybe earned but not necessary or appropriate to the situation.I think consistency becomes a problem if a wife lacks confidence she can command a punishment he resists, or if he believes he can successfully resist her or talk his way out of it. ( most of us have been there early in a disciplinary relationship I bet). We have talked earlier about that " defining moment" when we get a spanking we don't want and realize our wives really control if it happens or not.Once we are beyond the point where we realize she will spank or not according to her judgement and not doubts about whether she has the power to do it, concerns about consistency are less important
      Alan.

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    4. KD, on the observation of what we would do if we were kids again, I once saw one of those moivational posters that said something like, "Why is it that as adult we wish we could get things we hated as kids, like spankings and naps"

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    5. Alan, your views and mine are usually in alignment, but I'll push back a little on this one. I think the needs of both people in the couple are important, and if he is struggling for someone to take firmer control, set firmer boundaries, then the fact taht she has come to a conclusion about her own power is meeting at most only half the need in the relationship. And, I think she may be less likely to arrive at that sense of her own power if the consistency isn't there during the developmental process. In short, I think it may be better for both her and him if things are more consistentl, and lack of consistency may inhibit the development you describe. But, as we all keep saying in one way or another, it's a balance.

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    6. Hi Dan,

      You may well be right and I have had some problems myself at times about consistency. But some of " struggling for someone to take firmer control ( and) set firmer boundaries" when a wife is already empowered to spank could be construed as topping from the bottom. If she is confident of her authority shouldn't we allow her to decide when and where it happens? I will never forget the time I asked a girlfriend what she would do if I resisted her punishing me. She just looked at me and said I had given her the authority and could never take it back and that she could control me if I challenged her. That was a game changer for me realizing she was really in charge and we were past the point I had control over it. So I wonder if our concern about consistency underneath is a question about who is in really in charge.
      Alan .

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    7. Hi Alan. There are times that I think that all the line-drawing among these various forms of F/m relationships isn't all that useful, but this concept of topping from below is where I really do think there is a relevant difference between Femdom on the one hand, and DD on the other. And, in my mind between even Femdom and FLR. I see DD as a tool to strengthen rhe relationship and to meet certain needs of the parties. In that context, I just don't buy the whole concept of "topping from below." If the parties have agreed to a disciplinary lifestyle, or that one will be the leader, then just deciding not to do those things--other than saying, "I'm exercising leadership by deciding not to lead you or discipline you"--doesn't seem to meet both parties' needs or to be a reflection of what it was they actually agreed to. So, speaking only for myself, I will leave the "topping from below" to the Femdom end of the spectrum and continue to believe that both parties to a relationship need to be able to voice their needs and, in the long run, have those needs met.

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    8. Voicing your needs is NOT "topping from the bottom" and anyone who says it is has NO idea what they're talking about.

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    9. Voicing your needs is NOT "topping from the bottom" and anyone who says it is has NO idea what they're talking about.

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    10. This is a complex issue and from what I've read (and even written myself) it is apparent that it is hard to convey all the subtleties in our short paragraphs. It also seems that when we discuss these things, we know what situation we have in our head. When someone else responds, what they have in their head is often different.

      That said, I don't think the division of DD and D/s results in the same thing as TFTB (Topping from...). From what I've seen, regardless of whether the relationship is Femdom or FLR, people do tend to appreciate communication as important, and at the same time find too much information to be manipulative. However, everyone seems to draw their line between the two in different places and sometimes based on different moods.

      Normally one would say that pertinent feedback delivered respectfully would not be TFTB. But ultimately the Top is going to decide whether they see that feedback as helpful or manipulative. We just went back and forth on whether rigid consistency is better because it's what both parties 'signed up for. Or whether discipline is an issue tempered by the situation, circumstances and mood of primarily the Top but also both parties. But if we can appreciate both, how does one determine when it's better to be strict and when it's better to be merciful?

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    11. Everyone has made good points based on experience. And yet each couple is going to do their thing a bit differently.

      Dan, I also think that as a D/s-DD-FLR couple, there is a distinction for Rosa that determines whether something I say to her is wonderful and welcome feedback or TFTB manipulation. LOL Now all I need to do is determine what that distinction is, because I have had things taken both ways even when my intent was to inform.

      Lastly, I believe that the biggest issue in consistency and how it plays out depends a lot on where the woman is on her DD. If she is totally in it, believes in it, and is confident of her own sincere authority and her partner's compliance, any acts of 'inconsistency' are really just situation and mood, and nothing to be overly concerned over. However, if a woman is still struggling with aspects of her role, the inconsistency could be a sign of a lack of confidence, interest, or a reaction to her partner's possible inconsistency in submitting sincerely.

      I shared my post with Rosa and she endorsed what I said. She knows if she decides that a behavior has crossed the line and requires punishment, nothing is going to stop that from happening. She enjoys knowing that. But in knowing that, she can afford to let certain things go at certain times if she feels the circumstances mitigate the offence or need for punishment. If I were to push her to what I feel would be more consistent......who then is running the show? But as stated, if I were to respectfully approach her and admit my behavior was inappropriate and that while I appreciate her tolerating it, that it was making me feel guilty for not being my best, I'm quite sure she'd administer a punishment to clean our slates.

      Tricky stuff all this. LOL. BTW....you folks are the best! I don't think there's better discussion of DD anywhere.

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    12. Dan,

      As KD's 's post implies I think we are talking across each other by now, each with his own unique situation and experiences influencing what is being said. For the record I am much in favor of communication, but too much communication can be too much. We probably are at risk of entering a semantics jungle at this point; so I will take the occasion to wish you an early happy weekend
      Alan

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    13. Good comments from all. I agree on calling an end to this particular thread and wishing you all a happy early weekend.

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    14. The issue of "topping from the bottom" has been a hot button since I first started following the spanking forums - at least 20 years ago, on the old Usenet groups. Most of the discussions resembled this one. As Alan pointed out - there is probably no one right answer for everyone. For us, we do find some feedback valuable on occasion (but almost never during the spanking - except for me begging for mercy and promising to be good) and it was especially helpful in the beginning as we figured it all out. --al

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  10. Hello Dan,
    It is definitely easier to be consistent in applying discipline much like it is easier to form a habit and stick with it. I really believe discipline has to be a priority or why do it and one way to make it a priority is to make it a habit. If you spank him sometimes but not others both of you will be frustrated and your influence on your husband’s behavior will be reduced. This isn’t easy but much in life isn’t and if you believe in what you are doing and want real change there has to be a commitment to it. I go so far as to say if you discipline inconsistently you are being unjust to your husband and would be better off not disciplining at all. But there is also the real world I live in. I know absolutely that a spanking administered as soon as possible is much more efficient than waiting. But sometimes I have to wait. We don’t have children but family and friends are often around and so far we have kept private the spanking part of our life (although NOBODY around doubts who wears the pants in the family). So sometimes he goes a day or longer before paying the piper. Is that inconsistent? I don’t think so. I always deliver eventually and he knows that. In some ideal future I hope to open up more with close friends and I will be able to discipline on the spot when he misbehaves. Some of us will live to see the day when a wife doing that doesn’t bring gasps of horror from friends. Meanwhile I do practice consistency best as I can and try to make it a habit
    Marisa

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    1. Hi Marisa. This is a really great way to look at it, particularly the line about forming a habit and stickng with it. You also are right that the real world always intrudes, even for those without children at home. I do think it would be a great thing for more Disciplinary Wives to be able to open up among themselves, even if only electronically and even if it's not quite the same as just opening up to vanilla friends.

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    2. Dan

      Marisa is a very welcome addition to this blog...after reading the above, i have printed the word
      CONSISTENCY and it is hanging above my desk as I write this. I notice when I am, things around
      here go so much better. That word even applies to how I treat my sons. I think for males the
      idea of consistency makes them feel secure. That applies to rules as well as discipline. My mom
      always says to me," men just want to know what they should do, so tell them."

      anna

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    3. It will happen just as it did for gays when enough women come out and acknowledge their practices.So many men need this and I believe more women are giving them what they need ( and sometimes more than what they want) . The internet is shining a light on what has gone on for a long time. I just don't know when enough of us will step out and honestly I am not ready to come out myself yet. I am brave but not that brave.
      Marissa

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    4. Welcome, Marissa. And as a word of encouragement, if you feel strongly about being more open, go for it. My Rosa is very open and has told people she works with and also people in and around our circle. The key is knowing who you are talking to. Some people just aren't going to be receptive or even interested, but more open-minded people are out there than you'd think. (Of course it also depends on where you live. Here on the decadent east Coast, being tolerant of various lifestyles is key to general survival. LOL.

      But you have to be smart. A hint after a comment is made. That sort of thing. You know test the waters before diving in. my biggest shock was my late mother's reaction when I first decided to tell her. I went in hoping for acceptance without drama......and got endorsement!

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    5. Anna, agreed on all fronts. Marisa is very welcome and a great addition. And your mother is a very wise woman.

      Marisa, you should obiously come out (or not) at your own pace. My wife and I have been at this for about a decade, and in that time I have "come out" to one person and, as far as I know, she has with none. To each his own. And, as I have said before, I am not at all sure that I want things to become entirely open. I like a certain weirdness in my life, and once everyone else is doing it or everyone is out of the closet is it really weird anymore? I miss that first few months after I first discovered DD and I was so completely ovewhelmed by the emotional intensity of it, and I'm not sure it would have had that intensity if it was more open.

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    6. Hello KD & Dan,
      Thanks for all for the thoughtful advice. Dan, I never thought of the " weirdness" aspect of it as an attractor. But maybe iconoclasm lurks beneath us after all. KD, your experience with your mother must have been emotionally deeply satisfying. She must be a wonderful person.My mother would not be among the first I would tell but who knows I might be surprised.I think we might all be shocked to discover who is living in a DD relationship or approves. My feminine intuition tells me many more women approve than actually live the lifestyle. Dan, one question you might consider asking our community is whether or not they would continue domestic discipline if their current relationship ended for any reason. I would answer that question differently today than a few years earlier.
      Marisa

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  11. Marisa, my wife, Susie, and I both certainly agree with your comment about the importance of making DD a habit. We both have read enough on the forums over the years to know that staying consistent with DD is a real challenge for most couples that go down our path. The practice that has most helped us remain consistent over the last dozen years or so was the commitment to a weekly maintenance spanking on Sunday evenings - which, by its very nature, quickly became a habit. In addition to maintaining the "aura of feminine discipline" in the household, it also made it much easier for her to administer a punishment spanking as needed since we were in a consistent "spanking habit" - as the last spanking was never more than a week past.

    Not everyone agrees with the concept of a maintenance spanking, but something we read in the very beginning made sense to both of us. Regular maintenance spankings were for ongoing discipline - keeping the male ego in check and maintaining the feminine authority, while more severe punishment spankings addressed the behavioral issues as they arose. We found a side benefit to be that it was never awkward (as it might be if discipline was sporadic) for my wife to deliver a punishment spanking because we were in the habit of regular spankings. --al

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  12. Hi al,
    This is something we have struggled with, the sporadic nature of spanking as a DD relationship matures and maintaining momentum becomes a problem. When we first started I earned a spanking at least weekly and and it was just easier for her to pick up her brush or strap because it hadn't been that long since she had used it. We never adopted maintenance spankings as many apparently have because she believes I should only be spanked for disobedience or misbehavior, no pretend reasons. . But as my behavior improved and spankings became less frequent ( less than every other month at one point) consistency became a problem when I did get in trouble. It was hard for her to carry through when it had been a while since she had spanked me...Worse from my point of view, a spanking after a month or more without being spanked was much harder to take and it took her longer to get me to that place of letting go she looks for. Maintenance spanking with the spanking being discipline instead of punishment might have been a good thing and maybe someday we will try it. But instead for now we have begun twice monthly behavior reviews ( also after each trip) These work well even though she doesn't spank me after every review. I certainly am made aware who is in charge and the consequences of forgetting that. The reviews have also allowed her to catch things she was missing and consistency of follow up is not a problem because they are scheduled 1st and 15th of every month ( or as close as we can do them) We both like the regularity of it and she can still maintain her policy that spanking only occurs when earned. The only downside is that it does take a commitment of time and also spontaneous spankings are now rare because she pushes it into the next scheduled behavior review
    Alan

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  13. Maintenance spanking is a crutch imo. Not wrong, but not idyllic. The more naturally dominant someone is the less 'domineering' they have to be, i.e. exert dominance just to feel that it's there. They know it is at their beck and call at all times and spanking is just a continuation of who they are. No need for maintenance since there's nothing to maintain.

    Heck, the most naturally dominant woman, could possibly be the most likely to pass for being vanilla, just because she only exerts dominance when needed--but when needed, it comes down on the subordinate like a skyscraper of bricks. Every time.

    But that, for me at least, is the ideal. Some people don't have that power. Most. True, natural dominance assumed with ease is very rare in both sexes, I'd say. But I think more important than who is in charge, is that someone is. Removing ambiguity, remove the power struggles and quarrels. And do what is necessary to achieve that. Even if it's a maintenance spanking.

    -Rob

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    1. Thanks, Rob. It has taken me a while to come around to the perspecive that things work better when someone is in charge, but I am getting there.

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    2. It's either someone being in charge, or have a power vacuum. I think in polite, short term relations it is better to aim for neutrality because let's face it, dominance isn't always 'meritocratic' and people's worthiness to lead isn't always efficiently demonstrable or transparent. We can see both on petty and grand scales what happens when the wrong person takes over a power vacuum. But for an enduring relationship to remain functional dominance should not be open to constant renegotiation. I think the way we understand power and leadership is wired into us, instinctively, for a reason.

      I'm curious why you have struggled with this idea. Is it your sensibilities? Ethics? Insecurities? Self-image? Hope I'm not prying.

      -Rob

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    3. Great observation on the fact that leadership may or may not be merit based. It's one reason I can't accept the Femdom, "bow to all women" nonsense.

      No, you're not prying. Part of the issue is hierarchies in any form really go against my natural inclinations. When given the opportunity to run things the way I want, I usually tilt toward putting in place flatter organizational structures, without a lot of titles and hierarchical distinctions. My resistance to appointing one leader also undoubtedly reflects my own, very deep-rooted resistance to authority. It's just how I am wired. But, the biggest issue is really just that we hadn't really tried it in the marriage context, and I tended to come at it from the politically correct view that marriage is an equal parnership, with that egalitarian form being the goal. However, as fellow blogger and sometime commenter Rhiannon pointed out, few relationships really are equal. There is usually someone who is better at decision making, or at least at some kinds of decision making. There also often is one party who wants to lead and one who would prefer not to be the final authority, and the never-ending dance of negotiating the "rules" in that kind of relationship may keep both parties from living out the role they really want. For those couples, it may just be better to cut through all that and agree that one person is the final arbiter.

      Now, in my own marriage, I am NOT the one who wants to be led. But, yet, part of me really has a deep craving to have boundaries imposed on me, probably because I do function as a leader in my career all the time and to such an extent that it really gets wearing. In my ideal world, I would probably be more in charge and she would impose boundaries as needed. But, I think that is a difficult position for many wives, and the consistency of them leading is needed or they can never really take on the mantle of leadership when needed. As Marisa said, it needs to become a habit.

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    4. "It's one reason I can't accept the Femdom, "bow to all women" nonsense. "

      Dominance is a sexless concept. Unfortunately in a rebellion toward sexism women (and men) have tried to put another form of sexism in its place, instead of it occuring to them that perhaps it is truly equal-opportunity. Aunt Kay (dwc site owner), for all her virtues, supported this notion, 'things would be better if women ran the world'. If a man said this about men he would be seen as a troglodyte. Honestly I think dominant women and dominant men are cut from the same cloth.

      "It's just how I am wired."

      I would examine whether it really is hard-wired into you to rebel against authority, or whether it is a formative, psychological thing. If it's hard-wired, then it would follow that no woman, no matter how dominant could truly unwire it.

      "There also often is one party who wants to lead and one who would prefer not to be the final authority"

      Yeah, I think it helps sometimes to think of the power-vacuum (that phrase again) as like an uncontested piece of land. If a nation tries to claim it, the _only_ way for another nation to prevent that is to try claim it itself. Someone stepping up forces your hand. Eventually, the person who believes more in what they are doing tends to win out.

      "Now, in my own marriage, I am NOT the one who wants to be led. But, yet, part of me really has a deep craving to have boundaries imposed on me"

      Are you implying your wife wants to be led, or did I read that sentence wrong?

      Personally, I don't think anyone in the whole world is above being led. It's all a question of one's worthiness to do it. Perhaps some people struggle with this idea because they can't connect with their power very well or can't stand up to people when they feel they ought, so they'd rather remove this faculty from the equation.

      Power is... well, empowering. And we don't want to empower the wrong person, so egalitarianism, while IMO contra human-nature, indiscriminately strips power away from everyone. Now noone, good or bad, is empowered. It provides an eco-system for people to flourish without the possibility of being tyrannised by oppressive, overbearing idiots. It also robs them of the chance to flourish under strong, benevolent leadership, and prevents a group from functioning cohesively under a single vision.

      Interesting that you see a distinction between leadership and boundaries. Leadership is perhaps too loaded of a term, or maybe you see negative connotations in it? Maybe the concept of division of authority needs to be explored. Executive authority versus judicial authority? The president has executive power, but if he went out and murdered someone he would face a higher, judicial power.

      Still, that's just an analogy. In a relationship I think the disciplinarian has to have some form of veto power and authority, as well as embody virtues that the sub struggles with, to pull them up to a level they struggle to maintain on their own. Or else the discipline is just a game.

      From what limited insight I have off of what you've said, I can't help but feel you want to have your cake and eat it.

      -Rob

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