Friday, April 10, 2015

The Forum - Vol. 84 - Age & Wisdom

Hi all.  I hope you had a great week.  For me, it was tiring, frustrating, disappointing.  Tiring, because of lack of sleep, some workplace socialzing, too many work hours, and too many hours laying in bed thinking about work.  Frustrating, because of just having too many things to do, and too few hours to do them in.  Disappointing, because I went into the week pledging to be a good citizen at work, and by the end of the week I had lost my temper a half-dozen times and generally engaged in all the behaviors that lead Anna to spank Peter at the office.  It happens, but I can tell I am in one of those phases where I really need to be reined in.

A few years ago, I probably wouldn't have been able to admit some of my behavior problems.  And, I definitely would not have taken responsibility for them, let alone asked someone to hold me responsible for them.  Which brings us to this week's topic.  Several weeks ago, we talked about a poll that tested the ages of our Forum participants, which revealed that a very large majority of our community are over the age of 50.  We also had a poll that revealed that is it usually the man who asks for the DD or FLR relationship.

So, why is it that older men, those in their late 40s and into their 50s, tend to be more open to, or actively seek, an FLR or DD relationship? Kathy at Femdom 101 commented that it is because older men are more mature.  I'm not sure I agree, or at least I don't understand exactly how maturity would lead to increased openness to being controlled or disciplined by your spouse.  My own working theory is that for many of us, it is our late 40s when we really hit our stride at work, being given much more authority and control, but that increased responsibilty drives a corresponding need to give up some of that control and responsibility to another person.   But, maybe there is a "sweetspot" where our need to be controlled or punished corresponds with sufficient maturity to recognize it and ask for it.  What are your thougths?

Have a great weekend.

Dan

27 comments:

  1. Interesting question - and I may have to think about this more. But, we were in our mid-forties when we began our disciplinary relationship, and I was by then in a very demanding management role in my career with lots of demands, responsibilities, and authority - like several other of the men on this forum. However, I had been fascinated by female discipline since puberty (triggered, at least in part, by an otk hairbrusing by an attractive aunt about a year before puberty). And I did receive one moderate spanking from an older lady I briefly dated in my late teens - she was into the kink scene, and really a bottom, but decided that I needed a demonstration as to how give a proper spanking. I found it very satisfying but was too shy to ask for a repeat - and she really preferred to be spanked - which was fun but not satisfying in the same manner. So - I wonder at what age I would have been willing to become a disciplined husband if the opportunity had presented itself earlier. I never really thought too much about my wife actually spanking (she seemed so vanilla) - although in the pre-Net days, I would sometimes stop at an adult book store just to look at the spanking mags and even purchased a video once - which I kept carefully hidden, re-labeled as a sports video. It was the Net, though, that came open to the public in the early nineties, with it's spanking stories, discussion forums, and pics that really gave my lifetime fantasies a more solid form. Even though I was fascinated early in life, I somehow doubt I could have actually submitted to being a disciplinary husband before 35 or so - just to much alpha drive or testosterone perhaps. At least I think this is the case - it may conceivably have been different if I was reading the spanking forums at age 20 instead of 40.

    So, perhaps exposure to the spanking world contributed to it, the diminishing fire of youth that may have prevented me from taking a real disciplinary spanking on demand may have been a factor, or just general maturity - the "wisdom of age" - that made it clear that being a disciplined husband was the best thing for me.
    Or the maturity and personal acceptance to even have had the confidence to confess my secret fantasy to my wife on that fateful evening of candid discussions.

    However, perhaps even more important to this discussion is what age our wives were willing to assume the role of the disciplinary wife. Since I had been fascinated since puberty, I may have been willing sooner, but I do believe that my wife had to attain a certain level of life experience before she would have been willing to transcend the societal taboos. This, I am certain, is not true of all women - but the age at which the DW relationships begin may have more to to do with the woman's age than the man's.

    For the male who been fascinated since youth - as with may of us apparently - it may come down to at what point we are willing and confident enough to take the risk of presenting this desire to our wives.


    --al

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    1. My experience with erotic spanking - which you reference in a reply below - were actually somewhat limited. In my affair with the kinky older woman in my late teens, I did spank her half a dozen times or so, and she spanked me the one time I referenced - but this experience just reinforced the fantasies of female discipline that I had since puberty. Again, the spankings I gave her were fun enough, but it was the spanking that she gave me that had the long lasting impact. And with my wife, there really were only a couple of fairly mild "experimental-play" spankings before she read Aunt Kay's advice on how to spank on the DWC site - and from then on, it was always of disciplinary intensity, even weekly maintenance - as she viewed anything less as a waste of time. But as Alan talks about below as well, I always knew I wanted the discipline - so I found it very gratifying that my wife took to it right away (to my great surprise).

      In my post above, I talked about the wife having to transcend societal taboos - but perhaps a better phrase would have been "societal conditioning". Until she reached a certain point in her life experience, and having been raised as she was, she just would not have felt comfortable being a DW in 20's or early 30's. She believes that she might have been ready by 35 or so, several years before we actually got started. I think Alan makes a valid point in his post below about our changing society, and that perhaps the taboo and the conditioning is much less pervasive now, so that we may find wives being ready to assume the disciplinary role at an earlier age than before, if requested to so by their husbands.

      Likewise, and rehashing the influence of the Net a bit, I think it also very likely that men who are inclined toward discipline from an early age, may find themselves visiting such sites as the DWC and this forum at much earlier ages than we did - and then find themselves willing to approach their wives at earlier ages than our group. So, due a changing society, and the influence of the Net, we may that both husbands and wives are ready for a DW relationship at an earlier age - if so inclined - maybe not in the twenties but perhaps by the thirties or mid-thirties.

      Just a couple of more thoughts on this subject. --al

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    2. And all very good thoughts. Thanks, Al.

      Dan

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  2. Dan,
    There are probably many answers to this question. But I agree with you that just " maturity" itself is not an explanation. For me I think it took a long time to fully accept I needed and wanted discipline. Looking back I think I was oriented that way from high school but being a type A personality and male I expressed it finding women who enjoyed being spanking. Ironic about that is that I now realize I spanked several women who likely would have been just as happy warming my bottom if I had asked. Finally meeting a women who did not want spanked but believed in spanking and thought I needed spanked was what stated my journey to becoming a disciplined husband. But it was time ( almost 20 years and opportunity ( that woman) who brought it out. I believe today males are accepting discipline earlier because the social norms are not as rigid as before and men are allowed to step out of traditional roles, so it may be changing. Another factor might be the women who discipline us. Women seem more comfortable in the role of disciplinarian as thye enter their late 30's or early 40's.That's of course around the age many men seek discipline.

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    1. Hi Anonymous. Your points, similar to Al's, are well-taken, Another point you both raise that I had not really thought about is the role that giving erotic spankings might play in later wanting to receive disciplinary ones. I have never switched, so it hasn't been an issue for me, and I didn't have any pre-existing interest in spanking. But, you and Al are certianly in the majority, witih my lack of early spanking interest definitely the exception and not the rule.

      Thanks for contributing.

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    2. Sorry, I wrote that but forgot to sign ( senility is not contagious as far as i know)
      Alan

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    3. Dan,
      Something happened in your " late 30's" to trigger what must have been there for some time. A lot of spanking interest is hard wired and then triggered by one or more experiences. Where you are unusual is that triggering happened so late. Also why I am blabbing on , a thought about erotic spanking. I know many spanko start with erotic spankings and then " discover" their interest in disciplinary spanking. I think I am in the minority here but I think people label early spanking interest erotic because it is just more comfortable than saying " I need discipline " Te need for discipline ( for many, not all) is what underlies so called erotic spanking.It gets complicated of course because aspects of disciplinary spanking can be erotic so not a simple issue but I believe erotic spanking has a strong disciplinary component from the beginning

      Alan

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    4. Hi again Alan. I really don't agree that I had some kind of "latent" interest in spanking that was tirggered late in life. I had read spanking-oriented stories in various adult magazines, and it really held no particular interest for me. For me, discovering DD triggered an interest in spanking, not vice versa. We had a very brief flirtation with erotic spanking before I stumbled on the concept of DD, but it really didn't do that much for either of us and, looking back, for me that was because whatever disciplinary element it had was really role playing. I'm also finding that as things continue to develop, it is the boundaries and control I need, with the spanking as a tool to impose them. But, it is the boundaries and control that are the end, and spanking one of the means.

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    5. Dan,
      You are the expert on yourself and your experiences . But I didn't mean you might have had some kind of "latent interest" in spanking that you suppressed. ( one meaning of latent) . I meant you probably had a set of genetic factors ( predispositions) that made it possible but not inevitable that spanking became an interest. If those predispositions are triggered by an experience, the spanking orientation grows. . For many people the trigger might be seeing a spanking or hearing one especially when young enough to be impressionable. Maybe for you it was discovering DD that triggered it. The exact trigger probably varies a lot between people. For me the interest in spanking was there as long as I can remember but meeting a women who believed in spanking and spanking me was my pivotal moment.
      Alan

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  3. When I began seeking out being spanked I know it all had to do with escaping the pressures of work. As I rose in the firm and the pressure was greater my need to top myself seemed to turn me into a spoiled brat. As Anna has revealed here in the past I sought out a professional. It was non sexual but for a short period of time I found relief in the pain.
    Later in marriage therapy I revealed this to Anna. It shocked her and at the same time made her want to see how we could work this out at home. DD was the answer and as i approach 48 I see it has made things better and certainly more peaceful at work and at home.
    I was ready as a middle aged man ( god i hate those words when applied to me ) to forge a partnership with Anna.She grew as a person and a wife and a lover. I calmed down as a worker and husband. Occasionally I still fly off the handle but I know now to go to Anna and merely say " HELP ME ' To be candid I doubt that
    I would have had the maturity and the balls to accept this as a young man clawing his way up.
    Does it matter how we got herre? NO !

    peter

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    1. Thanks, Peter. I'm really not sure whether my desire for discipline originated with work stress. I think that when I first learned about DD, it appealed to me because I felt a need to be punished for bad acts and to live within boundaries set by someone else. But, I do think it was work stress that often lead to the bad behavior that required punishment. Like you, work success tends to breed not satisfaction or complacency, but the need to top myself (or others).

      DD has helped my wife chastise me for the bad behavior, and it gives her more control and the ability to put me in my place. Whether it has helped me calm down at work is much more debatable. It comes in waves. I do better for a while, then comes a week like this one where things happen that make me nuts, and I find myself making excuses and justifying losing my temper instead of controlling it.

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    2. Dan
      A suggestion... take it or leave it.... go and ask for discipline before you get totally out of hand.
      My last outburst taught me that. So what if it doesnt last.... in time it will.... that is the the track
      I have been trying to ride since my last outburst.
      peter

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  4. I think men realize that it's 'now or never' by the time they reach their mid-40's. Do I pursue this, or just give up on having my needs and desires met?

    For (most) women,by the time we've reached our early 50's the kids are grown and out of the house, and we have more time to pursue our interests and desires.Or,maybe a life-changing vent happens, and we realize it's time to take care of our needs and desires. For me, it was the death of my mother that I had been caring for that put me in a position where I was able to fulfill all my desires. Prior to that, I'd been doing things, but I was mostly closeted.

    Having more freedom enabled me to find Shilo and let him into my life.

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    1. For some that may be the case. Personally, I just never had those needs and desires until mid-life.

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  5. First writer wrote about getting his butt spanked by woman at work--Wow! I guess I am shy I would not want a woman to so much as see my naked butt---certainly not paddle me. In a great marriage there is once in a while when we both know i have earned a bare ass paddling---I get my bare butt paddled with a skinny stick and it really hurts--but then things are fine between us---It works for us----maybe not for a million other couples---My butt sure hurts but since its my wife--no embarrassment or shame----but I sure am sorry when i am getting it bare!

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  6. I tend to agree with Kathy from Femdom 101 (miss her btw). We older men are more mature. In my case, mature enough to realize some things that helped make my pursuit of a perfect marriage through FLM a reality.

    I knew then and I know now that my desire to submit to Mistress K. has everything to do with my desire to love her deeply, cherish her more profoundly and enhance the deep love that we already feel for each. I felt that offering her a gift of my submission and obedience would be something that would help us both enjoy the joy of our love for the rest of our lives.

    Although I can have sexual fantasies about submissiveness with other women, I truly only desire to submissive to one woman. One beautiful, adorable, strong woman. I realized recently that without even thinking about it, ALL of my sexual fantasies are centered around her. I didn't have to force myself there, it happened naturally and without any 2conscious thought to do so. I love how that makes me feel.

    I never could've even thought about living in this blissful state with my beloved wife without having the confidence that older-aged maturity gives me.

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  7. My own experience involved my spanking several of my girlfiends when in my 'teens - and with two of them (including an "older lady" in her '30s) claiming "equal rights", which I found rather exciting...

    The same experience was repeated when I got married (in my '20s) My wife was spanked often enough - until we both agreed to "turn the tables"... to our mutual enjoyment.

    Over the years, however, she increasingly took up the dominant role - which I found very much to my taste - and has been doing so ever since (with, I might add, a number of "tools" she added to the kitchen spoon and the martinet that I had originally used on her lovely derrière)

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    1. Engaging with this group makes me realize just how a tame a crowd I ran with in high school. T

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    2. Dan's comment was just enough to get me to jump in, as I've been out of this pool for a long time, due to a physical ailment (IBS if you must know) that left me utterly disinterested in this activity for six? months.
      With a doctor-recommended diet change, I've started to feel much better, and Merry and I have slowly began to resume activities of both an intimate and a DD nature.
      SO, high school, eh?
      I spent my senior year of high school at the American School in London... which is where, wondering around Picadilly Circus or Leicester Square, I passed by, then stopped at, a street vendor, purveying books and magazines of an adult nature, and I bought two paperbooks, one I clearly remember entitled "An Anthology of Spanking Literature", and the other, I do not remember at all, other than, a compilation of spanking-related short stories.
      These stories and illustrations were primarily of the genre M/f spanking, which grabbed my interest, and never really let go.
      Spanking scenarios became the stuff of nearly all my masturbatory fantasies.
      I was a bit of a nerd, and as I mentioned, I was a senior in h.s., and had yet to have a 'girl friend' much less... kiss a girl , or anything more.
      So I got married the first time when I was ... 27 ... and in all those years since h.s. I still had spanking relating fantasies... which I did not want to talk about to anyone, included my wife, because I thought myself perverted... and during the years of marriage, I somehow realized I wasn't so much fantasizing giving a spanking... but being spanked.
      I wound up leaving the wife for another woman... and things still didn't work out...because of me. I would not open up, talk about, share my feelings or my desires.
      I muchly preferred to masturbate to my fantasies to having and sharing sex. And I simply refused to talk about what I desired.
      The new woman and I were a couple for four years before giving up ...and called our relationship 'friends' though we still lived together, sharing the townhouse. She lived upstairs, I lived downstairs, so we did not share the bed anymore.
      When she moved away and out was when I decided I would try to ... realize my dreams (Jan '13).

      The story from there is as long as what I've already written, and I'm starting to see a lot of glassy-eyed looks in the audience, so I'll say, "Good night, Dick".

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  8. I may have answered a similar question here with the same answer. For me at least, the reason your poll reflects me as over 50 is you posted your poll in 2015. If you asked me this question in 1979, the answer would be the same but not my age. So no late start for me. I will admit that with time I understood what I was after more and I also think I got better at it in terms of how I encouraged the women in my life to grow into DD. I made a lot of mistakes early on. Also, I may be 55, but Rosa is 38.

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  9. Deep down, I always desired a female led relationship, though I’m not quite sure how I’d have coped with one when I was younger.
    I think accepting a DD lifestyle does have a lot to do with maturity – at least in my case. The years give you, not only experience, but also confidence and those attributes, plus the trust that a strong relationship brings, allowed Mistress and I to openly discuss how we could turn our spanking games into DD in order to enhance our relationship.
    We both come from marriages that broke down and understood the causes that led to the failure. So we came into this relationship, determined not to make the same mistakes again. That process also allowed us to identify a real need for discipline in our relationship to keep me on track and what better way than using DD?
    Whether this kind of discussion could have happened if had I met Mistress earlier in my life, without those previous experiences, is hard to say, but we both agree with the fact that we were in our late 40s/early 50s meant we approached the discussion in a different way than if we’d been 15-20 years younger.
    It seems to me, the older you get, the less you are concerned about the so-called taboos that inhibit society and the more eager you are to make things happen that continue to keep you both happy.

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  10. I agree, maturity, by itself, does not seem to explain why some middle aged men engage in domestic discipline relationships in which they receive discipline, relationships that most would not have engaged in when younger. Generally, I do not associate maturity with the need or desire for physical or externally imposed discipline. People who are truly mature, regardless of their chronological age, demonstrate an inherent self-discipline and self-control. Additionally, maturity, self-discipline and self-control are probably not provided for by a domestic discipline relationship. Mature individuals who seek a domestic discipline relationship probably do not do so simply because they are mature.

    A good description of self-discipline is the ability for someone to pursue what needs to be done (work) before pursing what they want to do (fun). As an example, an adult demonstrates self-discipline when they eat dinner before eating their dessert, even if the dessert is sitting right in front of them. Many children, usually less mature – go for the dessert first. Adults exercise self discipline when they make decisions that allow themselves and others, to recognize a benefit in the long term even if they have to pay, or forgo benefits, now (for example, making an investment rather than spending the money on an expensive dinner and a show).

    One exercises self-control when they demonstrate the ability to treat others with respect, dignity and politeness, even if they made a mistake (leadership), or even if a third person is acting irrationally (customer service). Those are the people that are desirous to work with, to work for, that people want working for them, and those are the people that others want to provide customer service to them.

    What maturity allows, in addition to self-discipline and self-control is, perhaps, is the ability for mature individuals to perform a deeper level of introspection, to become more self-aware of their desires, and to be able to express those desires to their spouse. Assuming for the argument's sake, that most people who are enter into a domestic discipline relationship, and who stay in such a relationship, do not do so because they “need” discipline, but instead, most people enter into such a relationship, and stay in the relationship because they “want” discipline (even if they express that desire in a terms of a “need”). Perhaps then, mature people who seek a domestic discipline relationship, do not seek such a relationship because they need it, but because they have grown into that desire (in some cases) or have come to the understand that they have or have had a deep and / or long held desire for externally imposed discipline, and want it from someone with whom they have a loving physical relationship.

    A successful domestic discipline relationship, in which a man receives discipline, may, provide six attributes of a relationship that many men may find desirable: 1) it allows a man to express his trust for his wife (this is may be mutually desirable as it feels as good to give trust as it does to receive it); 2) it gives the wife a chance to provide care and nurture for her husband in providing his discipline 3) it is an expression of his desire for her (usually he does not desire to be in that type of relationship with any body else); 4) it is an expression of her desire for him (she does not provide discipline to anybody else - children excepted); 5) it allows for improved communication between the two of them, (the fact that she is performing as requested in the relationship proves that she listens to him); 6) it increases the intimacy between the spouses, which in may, in turn, improve their sex encounters. So no, maturity by itself is not enogh. Instead, these mature men have now learned to understand themselves better, are seeking to fulfill their deepest desires, and are just taking another step in their this journey that is life, lust and love, that we are all on.

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    1. Interesting, thoughtful post! The six attributes are well considered and probably apply to most - all of them certainly have been true in our relationship. Some may apply more than others to other couples' relationships - and, of course, there may be other attributes that apply for other couples as well

      I especially liked your concluding last sentence - maturity allowing us to understand ourselves better. Thanks for the post. --al

      .

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  11. Dan

    I wonder if perhaps you and Peter suffer in ways from the same things.
    It strikes me that you both have achieved your success by thinking and
    acting outside the box. I know for a fact, Peter 's abilities brought to his
    business great profits, his often bad behavior was tolerated and what is
    worse, almost encouraged.
    Deep down I knew Peter at some point tied his abilities to breaking rules
    and therefore to top himself, as men like you two are, their bad behavior
    was never checked. Like any star, be began to think he should be able
    to do as he pleased and slowly that attitude made life for many difficult.

    Domestic Discipline for us has been the solution and freed Peter for
    accept love and also to accept that discipline doesn't have to be a bad
    word.

    Anna

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    1. Hello Dan,, Recently my wife and I were on a cruise in the Med . The first day was at sea and in mid after noon we were returning to our cabin down the cabin corridor when we heard a loud whack and a guys' loud cry of pain! We paused then heared the harsh voice of his wife and then a couple of slaps on bare flesh followed by sounds of a cane or strap on his bare bottom or thighs! We could not hang about so went on to our cabin! Every body was wearing shorts and were to see several men with with dark bruises on their legs and on the backs of lower thighs which left no doubt that a cane or strap had been applied to those men! Going ashore in one Port of call, we were walking behind a couple with their arms aroung each other but the backs of his legs and lower thighs showed several clear cane bruises and some well defined recent red cane marks ! We had never imagined we would see so many guys with such marks walking around the ship with no apparent concern ! We saw some of them quite often and one had very nasty thin cuts on his legs! There were others with marks but we were unsure if they were strokes! We had not even given and consideration to my wife dealing with me
      but i did notice my wife makig notes in her diary from time to time and I knew what would happen when we got home !!! There were upwards of 1500 people on the ship so these guys were a very few in number . Ken.

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